Mini 248: News Mafia - GAME OVER


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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:32 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Day 1 - Stark - CA Posts After
Day 2 - CA - CA Posts After. Votes Foolster.
Day 3 - Foolster - Bertrand (Scum) Posts After.
Day 4 - Stark - Foolster41 posts after. Votes Bertand (Scum)
Day 5 - CA - Nightfall(Scum) posts after, then CA.
Day 6 - Gin/Bloojay - Thok Postds After.

Thok: My PM seems to indicate that I choose a random pro-town.
Fizz: ok. so, i'd like to hear what you have to say. I have no idea where you're going with this. When did you (or rather bloojay) use your abillity?

This is not good, Me and two unconfirmed people. So, I guess you both should start explaining why you can't be scum and the other is. After consideration, then I'll cast my vote.
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:00 pm

Post by Thok »

I guess I should reveal my info

Interviews
Night 1-bethelmark
Night 2-CA
Night 3-Foolster
Night 4-Stark
Night 5-Bloojay
Night 6-Gin Fizz

I got responses each night except for night 1 and night 5. I can post the responses if you want me too.
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:02 pm

Post by Gin Fizz »

A couple questions for our esteemed mod first. If either of these is over the line, I apologize in advance.

In post 24, you said:
[The mafia] may change as much or as little of that article as they want.
1. Would that ability extend to deleting an article entirely? I'm particularly interested in whether the corrections could be completely removed. If so, would the removal of corrections in one paper itself generate a corrections column in the following paper?

2. Could the mafia's ability to edit affect our knowledge of the allegiance of eliminated players? For example, could a townie's death notice be edited to say that they were mafia? If so, I presume the edited version would inform the summary in post 1.

In the end, I'm not sure whether the answer to #2 will have much effect either way, but better safe than sorry, I guess.
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:30 pm

Post by Yggdrasil »

Gin Fizz wrote:Would that ability extend to deleting an article entirely?
Yes
If so, would the removal of corrections in one paper itself generate a corrections column in the following paper?
Yes
Could the mafia's ability to edit affect our knowledge of the allegiance of eliminated players? For example, could a townie's death notice be edited to say that they were mafia?
Yes
If so, I presume the edited version would inform the summary in post 1.
Yes, the page 1 summary reflects whatever is in the paper, correct or not.
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:45 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Oh shoot. Well, that could really scew up past investigations.
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:48 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Sorry. Hit submit button too soon.
I don't see how that helps us. So you think a article was altered a few days ago, and the long string of days in a row with no corrections is because scum have been targeting the corrections?
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:50 am

Post by Gin Fizz »

Foolster41 wrote: I don't see how that helps us. So you think a article was altered a few days ago, and the long string of days in a row with no corrections is because scum have been targeting the corrections?
Well, any reasonable theory of how and why the mafia edited the paper has to take into account the constraints under which they're operating. And at this point, it doesn't make any sense to vote without having such a theory.

I'll post mine in a little bit. I have a couple other things I need to do this morning.
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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:10 am

Post by Gin Fizz »

All right. I'll apologize now for the double-post and the length of this one. Since it appears to be not only my neck but the town's in the noose, I want to take whatever chance I can get to persuade the one of you two who isn't scum.

I do actually believe Foolster's claim of how his job works. Given that, it's important to look at the EotD columns and determine their authenticity.

There's one EotD column I'm certain is genuine: Day 2. This is the day on which I (bloojay) used my Chief Editor power to ensure that the mafia couldn't edit the paper. The other is Day 1; since we know from the Day 2 paper that Lich was definitely town, and since Lich let us know that his article is the one that was tampered with on day 1, it follows that the day 1 EotD article is almost certainly genuine. Here are those two articles:
Day 1 wrote:Although he is just an intern, Stark is deserving of our daily award to the most outstanding members of the MDT team. “He’s a very loyal employee,” remarked the Sports editor, “he’s very dedicated to the company and deserves this award.” “The coffee pots in the break room are never empty,” commented co-worker Joe Jackson. For his dedication to the MDT, Stark will be honored by getting his name on the employee of the day plaque.
Day 2 wrote:Today’s employee of the day is MDT’s own star reporter, Commodore Amazing. Commodore Amazing has shown his dedication to the MDT through his numerous interviews with guests including celebrities, politicians, and even members of the MDT’s own staff. It will be our honor to place his name on the Employee of the Day plaque.
Since the day 6 column is naturally under some scrutiny, here's that one for comparison's sake:
Day 6 wrote:Today’s employee of the day is the MDT’s own Chief Editor, Gin Fizz. Gin Fizz recently stepped into the Chief Editor position after the former Chief Editor, bloojay, was abducted by aliens. As Chief Editor, Gin Fizz has the ability to take the editing process into his own hands. Despite the fact that he’s too lazy to do this most of the time, he is still very deserving of our Employee of the Day award.
Compare these three samples of text to this one:
Day 3 wrote:Today’s employee of the day award goes to Foolster41, a very deserving writer on staff. Yes, he is very deserving of the award. It is not like he’s just getting the award because he’s the author of this column (which he is). But really, he deserves it.
This article is different from the others. The voice and cadence are different. The level of diction is different, the writing clumsy. The degree of flavor is different: Stark gets coffee, CA gets politicians and celebrities, bloojay gets abducted by aliens; poor Foolster gets nothing.

Now check out Foolster's next post:
Foolster41 wrote:Tonight's lynch should be obvious.
vote: CA For a lot of good reasons, mostly becaue he QUICKLYNCHED A COP

And I know there are probibly some questions about my role, because of this morning's paper. If you want I can claim.
So, he leads off with a mistake that "only a townie" could make. Shouts it, actually. Then, oh so casually, he's in a hurry to explain his job. Those appearing in the EotD column have to be town, so Foolster's off the hook.

It's a pretty good strategy for the mafia, although a risky one in certain ways. Once they understood how their editing power worked, though, they knew they only really had one shot to plant misinformation in the paper, since doing so would require them to use up all subsequent edits deleting the corrections column. Foolster's column was the best chance they had of passing off one of their number as town.

Of course it only works if Foolster is squeaky clean the whole rest of the way. He was the first to vote for both bertrand and Nightfall--another instance of being perhaps too eager to prove his innocence. And if you look at voting patterns generally, you'll find that Foolster has jumped on and off more bandwagons than anybody else in the game, by a long way, so there's enough noise there to conceal the signal.

To me, this is the only sensical explanation of how and why the paper was edited. I am all but certain that Foolster is our remaining scum.

Since we're at a delicate position, though, I won't cast my vote now; it only seems fair to allow Foolster to make his case.

Also, Thok, I would very much appreciate seeing the contents of your interviews.
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:50 am

Post by Foolster41 »

The hell? I'm your remainign scum? I think not. Who was it that helped out lynching most of the scum in this game? Killing one scum is a tactic to get golden maybe if I werse scum, but lynching two would be stupid for scum. If I'm scum and I did that, I DESERVE TO LOOSE. Also scum tend to FOLLOW a lynch on fellow scum when they have no choice, not lead them as you claim I did.

As for jumping on and off votes, I can't refute that, and I guess I can see that as su[sicio9us, thought I think that would only incur a minor suspicion at best.

First tell me this:
1.)Do you think scum have thejr own article? I find this unlikely.
2.)At the begining when I claimed Nom de plume, did anyone counterclaim me?

I admit, the article does sound differfent, but using that as the only evidence is
(and me making a mistake about the alinment of FOG when she was lyncged) is foolish and at best tyring to outguess the mod

I too would like to hear more from Thok. Also, thok you do have an article right? Which one?
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:50 am

Post by Foolster41 »

The hell? I'm your remainign scum? I think not. Who was it that helped out lynching most of the scum in this game? Killing one scum is a tactic to get golden maybe if I werse scum, but lynching two would be stupid for scum. If I'm scum and I did that, I DESERVE TO LOOSE. Also scum tend to FOLLOW a lynch on fellow scum when they have no choice, not lead them as you claim I did.

As for jumping on and off votes, I can't refute that, and I guess I can see that as su[sicio9us, thought I think that would only incur a minor suspicion at best.

First tell me this:
1.)Do you think scum have thejr own article? I find this unlikely.
2.)At the begining when I claimed Nom de plume, did anyone counterclaim me?

I admit, the article does sound differfent, but using that as the only evidence is
(and me making a mistake about the alinment of FOG when she was lyncged) is foolish and at best tyring to outguess the mod

I too would like to hear more from Thok. Also, thok you do have an article right? Which one?
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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:33 am

Post by Foolster41 »

Sorry for the tripple post.

Let's look again at the papers, shall we?

1 - Stark (Obv. No corrections)
2 - CA (Story about CA was altered yesterday)
3 - Foolster (No Corrections)
4 - Stark (No Corrections)
5 - CA (No Corrections)

Hmm, no corrections after day 2 (When Fizz/bloo claim they used their action) Interesting. Could it be bloojay/fizz lied, using the mafia editing to change the corrections portion (To apear to have his abillity) and used the actions after to cover up his lie? And now he's accusing me of doing what he actually did to take suspicion away from him?
FOS: Fizz


Here are the final lynch counts. +1 for helping lynch scum, -1 for pro-towns. No points for not being involved at all.

1 NLich TOWN: FalloutGirl, Foolster41, TSAGod, stark, bloojay
2 FalloutGirl SCUM (bertrand, Thok, bethelmark, Foolster41, Commodore Amazing)
3 bertrand SCUM (Foolster41, Commodore Amazing, Thok, Nightfall)
4 Nightfall SCUM (Thok, Foolster41,Commodore Amazing)
5 (NO LYNCH)

So the total comes to:
ME: +2
Thok: +3
Fizz/Bloo: -1

Hmm. Only helped lynch a townie and no scum.
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:55 pm

Post by Gin Fizz »

Foolster41 wrote:...
Hmm, no corrections after day 2 (When Fizz/bloo claim they used their action) Interesting. Could it be bloojay/fizz lied, using the mafia editing to change the corrections portion (To apear to have his abillity) and used the actions after to cover up his lie? And now he's accusing me of doing what he actually did to take suspicion away from him?
Okay, suppose this piece of WIFOM is true. First, I see nothing in your argument that suggests what advantage I might have gained by doing this if I were mafia. Second, your argument fails to explain how I could have altered the EotD article on day 6 and ALSO deleted the corrections column on that day.

My argument includes not only an explanation of how you and your fellow conspirators did this, but why. Yours is struggling to get to "how."
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:16 pm

Post by Gin Fizz »

Foolster41 wrote:Hmm. [bloojay] Only helped lynch a townie and no scum.
BIGGER FOS: Fizz
Obviously I can't speak directly to bloojay's thoughts in the earlier days of this game, but if you'll notice, he only cast two votes total throughout the entire game: a random vote on page 1, and the vote you have logged. Yes, Lich turned out to be town, but two other known townies voted for that lynch as, of course, did you.

After that, bloojay didn't participate in lynching scum, but neither did he participate in trying to lynch townies. In fact, he really didn't participate at all, which is presumably why he was replaced.

I see little, frankly, that's suspicious in having made a mistaken vote on the first lynch. The probabilities say that townies are far more likely to be lynched on day one than mafia are.
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:17 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Hmm. That's right, I forgot you were the target of today's article. That clears you a little more in my mind, since as you said mafia can't change EotD and corrections.

I'll even grant that bloojay wasn't participating much, so it's not a surprise he didn't vote for scum. So maybe the points in my last post doesn't hold up much merit.

But part of my point was, I was activly going after scum, pushing I think rather hard for their heads. I was one of the first to call bull on FOG if you remember. You call it eagerness, but that eagerness is called STUPIDITY in scum. "Personel" is a precious comodity on the scum side, just throwing it away for a tactic like this would be not just "risky" but stupid. I would never go for this if I were scum.

Also I hope you would admit that "Mistake only a townie could make" could very well be a mistake someone could honestly make (I tend to skim, as I said many times before in other games, it's a habbit i'm trying to break) and not exactly earth shattering evidence.

I still think you're idea of what happened is a little hair-brained. I sacrificed two fellow scum (And went after another who no one else was willing to go after) in a desperate ploy to coast along with 1-2 scum remaining? Would fellow scum go along with this (You make it sound collaberative)? I think not.

Also, I just don't see how scum could be the writer of the EotD article (as you seem to be indicating since I'm uncounterclaimed as being the author) unless it was desceptive, but that just gives me a headache to think about.
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:02 pm

Post by Gin Fizz »

As I said in my initial posting, I believed you when you described how your job worked. That job would certainly look like an albatross to the mafia side at first glance. The best strategy I could imagine would be to use it as camouflage.

The fact is that, if you accept the Day 3 EotD article as having been edited, then every other article from that paper on must be accurate.

Editing the day 3 EotD incompetently in hopes that that would end up casting suspicion on you eventually seems, to put it mildly, too cute to work. So, to learn the intent of the edit, it seems best to ask the question of whom the edit benefits. And that, Foolster, is you.

I won't disagree that helping to lynch two fellow mafia members after that point is bold, but really the only hope of this strategy working is for you to become, in every possible way, a model townie. And for me, really, voting record isn't that instructive. Both you and Thok voted for all three of the scum who've been lynched so far. Nothing in that points to one of you over the other, so I have to look elsewhere for evidence.

From what I see in this thread, I can't build a case that Thok is the remaining scum. If you can do better, by all means go ahead.
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:09 pm

Post by Thok »

Foolster-I don't have an article (CA did't have one either).

My interviews

Night 1-Bethelmark doesn't answer
Night 2-CA sent
Commodore Amazing wrote:I think that lynch was terrible.

The fact that we both have the same role made me feel pretty good about you at first, but now it looks like the rival scum group is from the other newspaper that's trying to shut us down. So I guess you could be interviewing me from the scum crowd.

I interviewed FalloutGirl tonight. Just in case she turns out to be a cop and the doc doesn't protect her.
Night 3 Foolster sent
Foolster41 wrote:Thok,
I accept your request for an interview.

I am a writer for the MDT, I go under the rather unoriginal pen name of Nom Deplume. I can not choose my targets, but they are chosen for me.
Thank you.
Night 4 Stark sent
stark wrote:Hey there boss; I'm a simple intern! Raised in Cuba in the coffee fields! I'm so happy you would like to interview me. Want some coffee?
Night 5 Bloojay didn't reply.

Night 6 Gin Fizz sent
Gin Fizz wrote:I’m afraid I don’t have much to add that I haven’t said already. As I (speaking as bloojay) revealed earlier, my role is Chief Editor (town). I am able, once during the game, to ensure that the paper printed the following morning is not tampered with by the mafia. I used this ability on night 2, making the paper from day 2 the only one we can be certain contains articles the mafia didn’t touch.

I hope you’ll be able to share the results of your interviews, and the inferences you’ve drawn from them, with the rest of the staff so we can ferret out those who want to destroy our paper.
--Gin Fizz
I'm not sure how much that adds.
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:09 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Wait a minute. Did you realize something? There is no correction on day 3 for day 2.
so then, did the mafia make no alterations for day 2? Because if they did, there's no way they could both alter the EotD article (as I think you are claiming) and the corrections.
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:12 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Doh. Nevermind. You used your abillty. Yeah. I have a bad short-term memory.

But anyway, You keep using this word... bold. Is this a synonym with stupid? because really I think that's what I would be if I tried this tactic. You'd think I'd do a better job of mimicing the previous paper if I was trying to slip in among the town. Maybe this bad forgery is the mafia's idea of trying to frame me, knowing I have an important role for identifying pro-towns.
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:25 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Wait a minute. on re-read I see you say something about catching suspcion on purpose. I missed that the first time. What do you mena by that?
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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:43 am

Post by Gin Fizz »

Foolster41 wrote:You'd think I'd do a better job of mimicing the previous paper if I was trying to slip in among the town. Maybe this bad forgery is the mafia's idea of trying to frame me, knowing I have an important role for identifying pro-towns.
Foolster41 wrote:Wait a minute. on re-read I see you say something about catching suspcion on purpose. I missed that the first time. What do you mena by that?
Gin Fizz wrote:Editing the day 3 EotD incompetently in hopes that that would end up casting suspicion on you eventually seems, to put it mildly, too cute to work.
Editing the Day 3 EotD column to read as it now does would have required them to know that you were Nom de Plume, a fact you didn't reveal until after the edit in question. The only player who knew this on Night 3 was Thok, and even then he wouldn't have known what NdP's ability did, because all you revealed in your answer to him was that "I can not choose my targets, but they are chosen for me."

Finally, even if the mafia were, on the basis of this crumb of information, worried about you in particular on Night 3, they have a much easier way of doing something about that: they could have cut your throat then instead of relying on the extremely weak strategy of using up their one edit and crossing their fingers in hopes that maybe somebody eventually would notice and interpret the edit the way they intended.

Sorry, but your argument makes no sense to me. It makes even less if you're trying to argue that they adopted such an exotic strategy to get rid of a player who, for all they knew, was a vanilla townie.
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:07 am

Post by Gin Fizz »

Foolster41 wrote:But anyway, You keep using this word... bold. Is this a synonym with stupid? because really I think that's what I would be if I tried this tactic.
Leaving aside the obvious WIFOM nature of this argument, I can say that whether I find the tactic bold, stupid, brilliant, or whatever else is beside the point. I
know for a fact
that the remaining scum in this game used it.

Both you and Thok voted to lynch all three of the dead scum; one of you is the remaining scum. End of story, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:58 am

Post by Gin Fizz »

On a lighter note, I'm very proud to have been the one who wrote post 420.
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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:44 am

Post by Foolster41 »

Ok, so "one of us is scum" rather than "Foolster is scum" maybe now we're getting somewhere.

My explination makes no sense? I think it at least makes some sense. I keep saying it would be risky and just plain stupid to do this tactic you are put foreword, but youn keep nodding and going "Uhuh, it's bold, don't confuse me with the facts." You even admit the idea is risky. Really, if I am scum they should have "slit my throaght" as you say days ago instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. I think the players whg are confirmed scum are smarter than that.

Truthfyully, I do suspect thok more than you, simply because of today's confirmation and the unlikelyness of it being edited because of the missing corrections thing. But at the same time, I'm not confident enough that Thok is scum to vote from past behavior.

I am telling the truth, though I don't know exactly how to prove that to you yet. I'm rackikng my brains to figure out who the last scum is. But If the olast other pro-town votes for me though, we lose plain and simple. We have been doing quite well this game (4 scum down!), and I really don't want to loose. At this point I almost just want to offer a draw if that's possible. What do you guys think of that?
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:46 am

Post by Foolster41 »

Of course, I ment to say 3 scum down.
and MOD: Can we offer a draw?
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Post Post #424 (ISO) » Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:00 am

Post by Gin Fizz »

Foolster41 wrote:My explination makes no sense? I think it at least makes some sense. I keep saying it would be risky and just plain stupid to do this tactic you are put foreword, but youn keep nodding and going "Uhuh, it's bold, don't confuse me with the facts." You even admit the idea is risky. Really, if I am scum they should have "slit my throaght" as you say days ago instead of putting all their eggs in one basket. I think the players whg are confirmed scum are smarter than that.

Truthfyully, I do suspect thok more than you, simply because of today's confirmation and the unlikelyness of it being edited because of the missing corrections thing. But at the same time, I'm not confident enough that Thok is scum to vote from past behavior.
Your position is inconsistent. You claim that the fact that you have helped lynch 3 scum should place you above suspicion, but then you turn around and say that Thok, who has done the same thing, is potentially suspicious. I think I've heard all there is to hear of your defense.

So, Thok, it looks like the ball's in your court. Aside from posting the interview results, which I very much appreciate, you've been tight-lipped about your thoughts and suspicions. Now's the time in the game for us to lay our cards on the table. Can we see yours, please?
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