Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Wisdom]

It's what I said in the summary.

[Wisdom]

Anyway, if I had to state who I find the least scummy, I'd say Elyse. Her questions to me about why NS will flip town seemed like she genuinely didn't know what NS is flipping. She even went "YOU KNOW WHAT, IF NS FLIPS TOWN THEN YOU ARE THE FOURTH SCUM" which I don't see scum that know NS is not flipping town doing. Sure, her echoing and sheeping annoys me, and I see it as scum behavior, but I cannot discard the possibility that she's just lazy, skims the thread, gets the general idea from what I am saying, then presents similar ideas, even without realizing she's echoing.

The other three look very scummy to me.
enomis - His ISO just reminds me of how he played in Polygamy (in which he lurked and ended up replacing out, and his few posts were centered around a certain person and a supposed "scumslip" that person did. Similarly here, his posts have been focused around one certain point, how my play looks like my play in Polygamy (ironic, isn't it), which he has mentioned like 4 times. No content otherwise, no reads, and a scummy "he's scum, lynch him" push on Coug without reasoning.
Amrun - NS only acknowledged two people in this game, Majiffy and Amrun. More so on Majiffy, and the way he did so shows they're obviously not partners. However that little comment about how Amrun hammered on D1 looked more like how someone would talk to a partner (then again they have daytalk, so I don't see the need, but still). And then there's also his attempt to make me stop pushing Amrun by telling me that I'm defensive with her and that she suggests plans all the time. Also, there's her behavior around the AP fake-hammer; while it looked to me that she was going along with Venmar's plan and I stated that I find her obvtown for that, she had no issues with that and only admitted that she did not know it's a fake hammer after Grimgroove spotted evidence that she did not know.
Safety - His catchup post was weird, he included Majiffy (and NS, notably) in his scumteam speculation without any apparent reason other than "Majiffy scumreads me in every game". He commented on nothing that was happening, and his attempt to give a scumteam speculation looks to me like an attempt to look useful (since others were doing it too).

I think I prefer one of the former two, namely enomis or Amrun for today.
For now, I'll go with
VOTE: enomis

[Wisdom]

I don't see it.
Here Amrun admits to not knowing the hammer was fake, so how was she part of the reaction test?

But see, mollie, up until the point of the hammer,

now supposedly fake

, I was rethinking, even though he never once addressed my issues with him without trying to address seething else I wasn't even talking about. His reaction was NOT ragey, as I'd expect of town -- it was cautious. Now I'm unsure what to think.

All this energy wasted on calling me a retard could have easily been used with simply explaining or pointing me to where this Amrun-reaction test happened instead of being dicks about it.

So I missed some stuff. SUE ME!

Call me a retard or scum or both, but at least one of those will be rebuked sooner or later and at least one of them will be thrown back in your face as a result.

I didn't know the hammer was fake. For the record.

But asking me to explain someone's else statement is just crazypants.

You said it right after Grim found your post that showed you didn't know.
You posted before that and said absolutely nothing about me townreading you because of your supposed participation in the reaction test.

[Wisdom]

He was like "Is it even possible for two scum to share a QT?" so if he's scum it might mean that no two scum are teammates.

I don't get how what he said means that. Wanna explain it to me?

[Wisdom]

Just noting;
Both Amrun and Elyse want to lynch Safety and Enomis, Safety first.

[Wisdom]

Paraphrase it just to be safe, I guess.

[Wisdom]

Or possibly he knew that there's a pairing with 2 scum and asked the question anyway to appear town. If he knew there's no pairing with 2 scum I don't see why he would specifically make this question.

Did that happen at the beginning of the game?

[Wisdom]

Yeah. So I can see the scenario where Safety-scum knows there's a 2scum pairing (enomis & Amrun), and exactly because he has this knowledge in mind he thinks of that question to ask, in order to appear town. So if anything, I think that points to the existence of 2scum pairing rather than the opposite, given Safety is scum ofc.

[Wisdom]

He could, I'm just saying what I think it means in case he's scum, which I find very likely anyway.

Anyway, I'd still rather lynch enomis first, if only because it's Amrun AND Elyse's second pick.

[Wisdom]

What else has been said in the QT, Elyse?

[Wisdom]

A) your phrasing never made clear that you thought I was town because I participated in the gambit as opposed to being involved in it

Amrun and Venmar (especially Amrun) are town as balls for the reaction test.

I think it was crystal clear.

[Wisdom]

B) right before that, I said I didn't know why you were town reading me specifically. Stop being selective.

Umm, no, you didn't?

[Wisdom]

Nope.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Amrun
That's what we're doing first.

[Wisdom]

How the fuck does this quote question my townread on you?

[Wisdom]

I said I didn't know why you were town reading me specifically.

Where in that quote did you say that?

[Wisdom]

Bullshit. You're making this stuff up now. You said "even if you could, you wouldn't", wtf is that and how the hell it means that you don't know why I'm townreading you?

[Wisdom]

Because that is how the English language works. "Explain why he said he has a town read on you." "I can't."

It's pretty fucking straight forward.

And pro tip, no one, of any alignment, would be "making things up" like that and the fact that this even crosses your mind is an indication of several things, the primary one being you are not thinking deeply enough.

Newsflash, everyone makes stuff like that to cover up their lies.

And this is a complete misrep of the situation.

Grimgroove asked you to explain the (especially Amrun) part of my reads. You answered a generic "Even if I could, I wouldn't", meaning that you have no clue what I am saying. You had not realized that I am giving you credit for the gambit. That's what that answer was about. Nothing to do with confusion about why I'm townreading you. This should have happened the instant you read that post, but you instead chose to post a "Grimgroove, that's retarded" instead. Because you didn't care why I was townreading you, as long as I was townreading you. That's all.

[Wisdom]

Both.

[Wisdom]

And enomis is the fourth.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I have no clue what you were talking about. That's exactly what I just said and you just swore up and down that I was lying about saying that.

I was still, at that point, waiting for you to answer the question and not wanting to influence your answer. I have said that several times. It is not rocket science.

But since I am already reading you so strongly as town, I was less concerned than if, say, safety dance had come in and said that. We were walking in step there for quite a while, and that's a perfectly legitimate, and common, source of town reads for most people. It re-affirmed my town read on you, so why shouldn't the opposite have been true? If I had realized you were saying I had participated in the gambit, I would have had some different things to say.

Since you just acknowledged I had no idea what you were talking about, your whole argument falls apart.

You had no idea what I was talking about. That's different from KNOWING what I was talking about and being confused. You didn't state that you're confused about why I'm townreading you, you made a generic post that showed you don't have a clue what's going on but you're just going with it.

[Wisdom]

lol analyze the NS wagon. A wagon that we all joined to compromise. Most contrived effort to appear town I've seen.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: enomis

[Wisdom]

enomis posted elsewhere and avoided this game, so I'm more confident that he's lurking scum.

[Wisdom]

Then after that, i wanted to rely on my partner Amrun, since i had her as town. Then, our chat was also a fail. I get the feeling that she is just posting in the qt for the sake of posting

Can you elaborate on this? What exactly has been said in your QT? Do you think she's avoiding talking to you?

[Wisdom]

(and no Amrun, I don't want you to answer that)

[Wisdom]

@Grim
bullshit, just post as much as you want. Restricting yourself won't help. You never know when something you say might show someone that your thought processes come from a town mindset, which is what you should want as town.

[Wisdom]

What's so genuine about it? Did you have the impression that scum are unable to produce a list of reads?

[Wisdom]

your latest post in the qt is creeping my scum radar.

What was the latest post?

[Wisdom]

You can paraphrase it. (@enomis)

[Wisdom]

It is not something scum would do.

Why? Would scum do what NS did and present no reads at all? No. So saying what scum hypothetically wouldn't do has already been proven useless.

[Wisdom]

enomis stated a "town/maybe town/null" read on everyone. He didn't take any strong stances. I fail to see how it's the opposite of opportunism. He can basically still scumread anyone off that list.

[Wisdom]

Yes, scum would do that, especially with a meta that supports it.

The sad thing is is that he probably is town because usually as scum he puts in some token effort.

Boom.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Amrun


@enomis
I did state why I think you're scum in my reads at the beginning of this day. Your lurking, your play's similarity to your play in Polygamy, your StrangerCoug push, and ofc PoE.
I am feeling better about you now though, and worse about Amrun.

[Wisdom]

P-edit: yes USUALLY. This is not the first,'or the last, time that ns has done nothing at all as scum. That's why his meta is so successful. He's very good at being unreadable.

Yeah so you basically say contradicting things about NS the way it suits you each time. First you say that usually NS puts some effort in as scum, and therefore he must be town, and now you say that it's normal for NS to not put any effort in as scum, because his meta supports it.
Just no.

[Wisdom]

I don't care what he does and he doesn't. I care you're contradicting.

[Wisdom]

You consider NS town because he has not given reads.
Then, to counter my argument that you were false about NS and you cannot speculate what scum do and don't, you say that NS-scum doesn't give reads.
It's a contradiction, and you're full of shit.

[Wisdom]

Nope. Generalizations like "scum never do this/ scum always do this" are always flawed. Everything is circumstancial and depends on who is doing it and under what context they are doing it.
Saying that enomis is town because "scum would never give reads" is total bullshit. It's an easy excuse for you to try and buddy enomis, just like you're doing in your QT with him. There are reasons why enomis is looking town right now, but it's none of what you've said.

[Wisdom]

Ok we get it you're

both

scum, now let's lynch the person who we CAN lynch, Amrun.

tvm

both refers to me or enomis? (though I can guess)

[Wisdom]

Good. This will be interesting if Amrun flips scum, I'll explain why then.

[Wisdom]

what do you mean you had trouble obtaining reads in polygamy you were scum in that game you knew scum was

I think he meant "I couldn't read the game" - he replaced out because he could not keep up.

[Wisdom]

@wisdom: I think I see what the confusion is, then. I never said "always" or "never." When I said anything at all, I said "usually." In absence of usually, I assumed that would be understood because its common sense. I don't see the point of using wishy washy language when we all know there are no absolutes.

You said that enomis reads genuine because scum would not post the reads he did. That is a generalization regarding what scum would generally do/don't. You did not explain why enomis-scum would not do that in this certain situation.

[Wisdom]

Except I did. I said it even before you and I started having a conversation about it.

Enomis came in and didn't even try to push the alternatives as scum, even as a compromise. It's not suspicious to push one of these people as scum; it's very safe, since all of the popular targets are on the block right now. He's not fabricating reads because scum fabricating reads isn't likely to fabricate those reads at that precise time.

And where exactly did you explain this before now?

[Wisdom]

Also I disagree. These two reads could easily be subtle pushes on the alternatives.

Elyse: I remember having read something very towny about her but i forgot what it was. Maybe i will iso her the day after tmr or something to see if i can remember it. But the overall feel of her is abit scummy. I don't like how she come out with her reads. Looks a little fake. Like how Safety/enomis is conf scum. Is she that confident in her POE that she can say that? And the fact that her POE did not give her 4 conf scum, I don't see how she could be so confident in this.

Amrun: I had him as town. And now, frankly, i dunnoe what to think of him.I will just put him as null

Besides, why would he need to push the alternatives when he's not even in danger of getting lynched?

[Wisdom]

Therefore you didn't explain it.

[Wisdom]

But that's interesting, I had not realized AP had mentioned the fencesit on the alternatives.
So

that's

where you came up with the fake reason to "townread" him.

[Wisdom]

@Grim
I don't, enomis is town and Amrun is buddying him. That's also evident by what she posted in their QT.

[Wisdom]

Why, as scum, would I need a FAKE reason to town read someone I already know is town?

By fake I mean that you don't believe it. There are actual reasons for why enomis is genuine and town but you've still not mentioned them. Your reasons are null things that could have easily be done by scum too.

[Wisdom]

To say it differently; as town you'd be looking much more deeply than that. Right now you're scum giving an easy reason for why you're townreading him so as to buddy him.

[Wisdom]

Hey guess what also doesn't make sense? Buddying enomis. WHY would I do that, as scum? Lol

Because you want him to vote Safety over you.
Safety might or might not be your partner; if he is you gain credit for lynching scum and you make him trust you more. If he isn't, you'll have to deal with it but at least you will have lynched town.

[Wisdom]

And I don't know why I even replied to that. Did you seriously ask me why scum would buddy town?

[Wisdom]

How is this not INCREDIBLY SUSPICIOUS to anyone else?

Remembers SD is in the game and chooses not to comment on him because he (apparently) has not found any SD content interesting.

FORGETS IM IN THE GAME and "lol fake edit - AP could be town or scum IDK "

I'll tell you why this is town.
Do you know what scum who realized they forgot AP in their reads would do?
They would go up in the list and add AP somewhere inbetween.
They would never go "oh I forgot AP, let's add the read now".

[Wisdom]

and enomis was my best chance to not be lynched today. Actively attempting to derail the wagon in the next best candidate is really not conducive to staying alive.

Safety
Safety
You know Safety?
Yes.
Safety is your counterwagon, not enomis.
Cut the bullshit.

[Wisdom]

mollie, how sure are you about Venmar?

[Wisdom]

Now he is. Before that, it was always most likely to be enomis. Read the winds.

Except when you did it Safety was already the top wagon.

[Wisdom]

Yes, I know you're going to say "If he was scum he would go for the easy mislynch on someone in the pool." But there are two sides to every story. He can also lynch almost anyone in the pool by not having scumreads on anyone.

So do you agree that Amrun looks suspicious for wanting to townread him based on that?

And please link to that post in that completed game.

[Wisdom]

I agree with AP here. I don't see how enomis' wall is genuine or anything. He didn't even call anyone scum! Yes, I know you're going to say "If he was scum he would go for the easy mislynch on someone in the pool." But there are two sides to every story. He can also lynch almost anyone in the pool by not having scumreads on anyone.

Also this makes me feel better about you, at least in regard to your echoing that I accused you of earlier. You think you're disagreeing with me here, but essentially you're saying the same thing as I said in 1418. This makes me believe that your "echoing" is indeed done subconsciously, as I thought earlier.

[Wisdom]

but she's been consistently derpy about the setup so I'm having a hard time letting that go.

Where else did she show ignorance of the setup?

[Wisdom]

The difference in that post, Elyse, is that Deckard was giving reads based on playerlist order. He just added his scumbuddy last, without saying anything like "Oh I forgot Sakura, my read on her is X". enomis didn't just add him last, he stated that he forgot him and proceeded to give a read. Why do that as town? He would just go back in his list and add him (even last in the list, or maybe somewhere in the middle), but he would not mention that he forgot him. This shows a town mindset who posts exactly what he thinks.

[Wisdom]

Correction: not his scumbuddy, but that doesn't change my point.

[Wisdom]

No, Sakura wasn't his scumbuddy. Yeah, he didn't say "I forgot Sakura" but I don't think saying "I forgot x" makes someone town. At all. Alignment wouldn't dictate whether or not I would mention if I forgot someone. And how could someone forget about AP in a game like this? And remember SafetyDance? It seems too weird.

The fact he forgot about AP is not alignment-indicative. Who would forget AP in this game applies to scum too.
But I do believe that his wording shows that he just posted what he had in his mind. "Who did I forget? Oh yeah, AP." No. Scum would realize they forgot AP, and they would go and add them in the list. Maybe even last in the list, like Deckard did. But wouldn't do it like enomis did.

Also to answer your other question, I think that everything he has said about the QT is genuine. That's the main reason I changed my mind. It doesn't look like both he and Amrun are scum, and among them Amrun looks far more scummy, especially with that last post that essentially tells him to vote Safety.

I don't understand why you want Safety over Amrun. Amrun has been scummy, Safety has been lurking. Amrun has shown signs of wanting Safety lynched (such as what I mentioned about her post in the QT), and if anyone looks like lynchbait at the moment, that's Safety too. Is her "there are 3 scum" enough to cancel all her scuminess? Especially when you acknowledge that she could have planted it?

[Wisdom]

And since we're on the Safety topic, I asked you yesterday to tell me what's been happening in your QT, wanna do it?

[Wisdom]

Me too, tbh. But I don't think that means anything.

[Wisdom]

There are, at most, three scum in this game. If we require a majority of town to elect one side of TWO different pairs and then put them against each other, sure, it's possible for a short while for scum to hide. It is, however, unlikely, and on day 1 we are likely to have 1 scum in the lynch pool.

Even if we fail in our lynch, which is fairly likely for the average day 1, our failing is not decreased by taking control of the lynch pool.

The plan is, in my opinion, better because the scum can't simply kamikaze someone. Even if they gang up, they must convince the town.

Whereas with no formal plan in place, we open ourselves up to a couple of bad options:

-Scum challenging a pair with a predictable outcome of a town lynch, only one of which is likely
-Town pair challenging a pet scum read no one agrees with
-Any pair challenging an agreed upon scum read that the town realizes (too late) must be town, and lynches suboptimally due to lack of choices.
-Scum can simply choose never to nominate, and only by getting lucky can town get scum into the lynch pool

With my plan, town must at least be convinced by scum to nominate two pairs of people. Scum can make no action without town approval.

If scum are able to successfully hoodwink the town to that extent, the plan certainly doesn't HELP them do this in any way I can see.

If you have an alternate plan, or improvements to this one, I'm sure everyone wants to hear it.

Elyse tell me something.
How likely is it for someone who makes such a detailed plan like this, factoring all the bad stuff that happens to town if they don't follow it and everything, to BE UNAWARE of the number of scum?

[Wisdom]

There are, at most, three scum in this game

Yeah, I stopped reading here.
You're trying to make plans, yet you don't know the number of scum?
It is KNOWN how many scum there are.

I guess this makes you town though, even though I wouldn't put it past you to fake that towntell.

My reaction back then was this^, because I thought "wow she's trying to play townleader and does not even realize how many scum there are. And thus I wrote her off as derptown who slipped.
It has been proven however that she's capable enough and far from derptown. Moreso by NS's statement that Amrun usually makes plans (which means that she analyzes the setups and everything).
So no, I don't believe anymore that a person like Amrun would miss the number of scum.

[Wisdom]

And yes Grim, I don't think it means anything. Elyse was one of the people who instantly corrected her, so she's likely to remember it.

[Wisdom]

She said she's been in like 100+ games and in a game this size it's always 3 scum.

Does it matter? She obviously read the mechanics, read the rules, read everything in order to come up with her plan. How did she miss the number of scum?

[Wisdom]

About your QT convo; I find it interesting that Safety said absolutely nothing about his Majiffy scumread, which is the only scumread he has presented inthread. That does make him look scummy.

[Wisdom]

but am scared of a Venmar/Amrun scumteam.

Why did you think that? Do you still think it might be a possibility?

[Wisdom]

Is it enough to cancel everything scummy Amrun has done?

[Wisdom]

Reads change, for good reason.

What's that related to?

[Wisdom]

Nope, I am saying specifically why enomis wouldn't do that in his situation. I didnt make generalizations.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom you weren't trying to save NS yesterday blatantly with that push on me, were you ><

Did the push seem fake to you?

[Wisdom]

I keep waffling internally on whether Amrun issued the challenge as scum for towncred since the previous 2 people that did are getting townread hard or if she really thinks SD is a terrorist

We agreed yesterday that jaguars and monkeys fight today. When the day started I told her to make the challenge and she did.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, that's the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard. Lol. You really can't pull your own head out of your ass, can you? Regardless, it was never a scum tell to begin with, but saying that I did it when I HAD specifically referred to enomis and that you didn't when you didn't and also used the word "never" is lol.

The scumtell wasn't that, the scumtell was your contradiction. Misrepping won't save you btw.

[Wisdom]

But ffs Im used to being the most frequent poster in the thread.

This is why I laughed at 5

[Wisdom]

I had started townreading you up until the fake hammer ordeal happened. Then I mistakenly assumed things and was certain you're scum. The NS lynch wasn't that probable yet; you were still the main wagon. It only started becoming probable when people started deciding that you are town for your reactions - but I had not accepted that yet and thus kept pushing you. Therefore no, I don't think that my push could be seen in any way as trying to save NS.

[Wisdom]

mollie, how sure are you about Venmar?

I don't think that he would try that as scum cos it would draw too much attention

Try what as scum?

[Wisdom]

more but you just completely lost interest in NS.

But I never had any interest in NS in the first place. And even after deciding you are town it was still a compromise choice because I thought both you and Venmar are town.

[Wisdom]

Yes, I agree that's probably done with townish intentions. But why do you think that would draw attention to him as scum?

pedit: I did

[Wisdom]

I need you to not waver on that Majiffy townread for me cause Im a bit paranoid about Majiffy issuing the first challenge and then voteparking SC after the initial GG vote. : P

That's my only issue with Majiffy too, other than that I'm quite confident he's town. The ways he started to stop me from speculating etc strongly remind me of his town persona.

[Wisdom]

Yes, I agree that's probably done with townish intentions. But why do you think that would draw attention to him as scum?

pedit: I did

it would draw attention period and that is something that scum do not like to do

did it draw your attention

xpost

I don't get it. How would it draw attention on himself? It's a pro-town move, it wouldn't somehow bring suspicion on him.

[Wisdom]

mollie, did he text you that before or after this:

2. Majiffy go text/call/carrier-pidgeon/yell-at/prod-in-your-QT/ Mollie for us. Thx.

?
If he did after, I don't think it's anything to freak out about.

[Wisdom]

idgi

it would draw attention. scum don't like to do that

and he would have to backpedal on all of the reads he had gleaned from that in a way that made sense. that is not easy to do.

do you have a scum read on venny yes or no

I don't get how it would bring attention on him. It's a pro-town move, all it would do to him is gain him town points.

I stated that I think he is town for the reaction test, but my PoE is starting to fail me and I think that if someone I didn't think is scum is scum, it's him. I also may have picked up a tell that will only be relevant if Amrun flips scum, so I will explain that then.

[Wisdom]

I thought about that too, but Amrun first is better.

[Wisdom]

Or we can lynch Amrun, let the replacement catch up and possibly give us a different, new view on things, and then we can still lynch them if we don't have any other suspects still.

[Wisdom]

I don't see why we should have to rush anything.

[Wisdom]

Welcome

[Wisdom]

Very good points about Grim actually. And you made me notice something else too:

Fine, I'll take you AtE.
I obviously did not read your game again, I might as well start reading the Bible, but pff, I thought about it.
I'd feel bad about letting you slide once again in case you do end up being scum, but I'd feel worse if you're actual town having put a lot of effort in this game and letting Nobody Special being lurksack lazy scum with 11 posts live on. Somehow doesn't seem fair.
So yeah, congrats, your AtE worked.

But I still think your play vis-à-vis Amrun has been very dubious. I hope you agree she is the next one to lynch and won't be throwing around any wild scenraios again just to make her seem town somehow. She is obvscum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

This is

L-1

.

I do think last words from Nobody Special are in order.

When scum bus, they care about the next one to lynch. Usually they'll do that via association tells (call X scum because associations with Y, where Y the partner they're bussing) so that they can get a mislynch the following day. With NS there wasn't much content and therefore lack of association tells, but Grim is very probably doing that here. He doesn't care about NS, he cares about who he's lynching next.

And since I started this discussion, that's "the tell" I picked up from Venmar before; while voting Amrun, he was still focusing on me and saying things like "It's Amrun and Wisdom, they're both scum." That's why I thought that if Amrun flipped scum, Venmar could be bussing.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
Amrun looks more town now, and if Grim is actually scum, it's practically certain she's town.

[Wisdom]

enomis is town

[Wisdom]

I guess it will be qwints after all today

pedit: Because I want to hear from him first, like I said I would do.

[Wisdom]

Who was it that said Safety is lynchbait? Was it mollie?

[Wisdom]

re: safety dance. I think he is lynchbait material but he has done fuckall this entire game. having said that I think amrun needs to go first. hwen she was laying into me the other night it felt scummy.

yes

I could actually see mollie-scum

[Wisdom]

Either that or he's her buddy and she wanted to make us lynch Amrun instead.

[Wisdom]

But it's not just that. It's minor things that collectively make me think I'm not seeing town-mollie. Like how she's now claiming to doubt her Majiffy townread, despite it being so strong early on (and for silly reasons too). Like she not getting my "town signals" and still waffling on her read on me (in other games I was actually scummy as town yet she still townread me, now I'm feeling I'm being very obvtown yet she doesn't). Like how I'm getting an impression that she doesn't give many fucks about this game - and I remember her stating that she's usually lazy and doesn't care as scum.

I could actually agree with the scumteam Amrun is seeing. With Venmar or Elyse as wildcards, probably.

[Wisdom]

@Majiffy
I want you to think about the possibility mollie has been hard-buddying you from the beginning. Even if it sounds unlikely.

[Wisdom]

I don't think scum-mollie goes out of her way to inform me that Im not actually confirmed town as scum. I think scum are more likely to just sheep the general sentiment that Im obvious town and not try and buttheads with me over something so dumb.

That's not a bad point, however consider the fact that this is nightless. In games with nights, scum can just go with the flow and call the obvtown obvtown, then nightkill them. Here they'll be at a loss if they townread someone too hard.

[Wisdom]

And if you add the fact she's already buddying Majiffy into the blend.. it becomes apparent that she cannot afford getting another strong townread like that.
I think that's why she refuses to strongly townread me like she would normally do, as well as why she's starting to "freak out" about Majiffy.

[Wisdom]

I am freaking out a bit cos majiffy texted me to get more active in the game but is vote parking on sd. and he has not been as active as I like or as communicative as I like wrt this game. this game started when another game was wrapping up where I trolleytracked on him and was wrong.

if you are asking me not to get shaky on my read on him I can't promise that and why are you even asking this of me.

She didn't say that it was okay. And she said that she cannot promise she won't get shaky on her read on him.

[Wisdom]

Every five seconds she goes "oh, I had a freak out moment about him but then it was okay," though.

And no that's incorrect, I don't think she had any other "freak out moments" about him other than the one I just quoted

[Wisdom]

I don't think she has. I think it's the first time she mentions she's doubting her townread on him.

[Wisdom]

Do you have no read on myself, enomis and Venmar?

[Wisdom]

Mollie's town because Majiffy says so.

Are there any other reasons for why mollie is town?

[Wisdom]

Scum reads: Amrun; Grim

Also explain your scumread on Grim

[Wisdom]

The obvtown comment was actually about Safety, wasn't it?

pedit: Can you tell us all about all these notes you made?

And I don't buy Wisdom's claim that Amrun distancing from Grimm now means that they can't be scum buddies.

That's not what I said. They're not scumbuddies because of Grim's comments yesterday on lynching Amrun today.

[Wisdom]

I want to hear all you have on me and Venmar. Which parts made you think we're town, which parts made you think we're scum. All these notes you made.

[Wisdom]

What obvtown comment? I told mollie I was confirmed town and she told me that I couldn't be confirmed because there are no PRs. Which is obvious and dumb and exactly what I'd expect from her as town really.

Elyse jokingly said "Safety is obvtown" at the beginning. I think that's what quints was talking about.

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom, I've got a legal pad that I made two pages of notes on. I use red for scummy things and black for townie things.

Good, share those with us

[Wisdom]

That's all?

[Wisdom]

AP, yes.

And qwints you're seriously telling us you didn't find anything else about me or Venmar in 65 pages to form a read from?

[Wisdom]

And how likely is it that he made notes about just 1 point in 65 pages, yet ended up without a read on either of us? Come on now AP.

[Wisdom]

Venmar Challenged scum

?
Venmar challenged me, are you calling me scum?

[Wisdom]

[red Wisdom Majiffy/Mollie]

What does this mean?

[Wisdom]

Venmar's challenge ended in a scum lynch.

Except Venmar had nothing to do with it and was voting me (and AP for the test) the whole day?

[Wisdom]

You portray Venmar as being an idiot for this post, yet you don't portray Amrun as (as much of) an idiot for forgetting there are four scum? The only time you address Amrun saying the wrong number, you say it's a possible, though potentially fake, towntell. Why are you harder on Venmar?

^The only thing Coug said about me in that post is the above.
Which I explained to him.

Was that the only "red" thing you found about me?

[Wisdom]

pppedit: He DID challenge a group with a scum in it though, so whats wrong with Qwints pointing that out?

You can't be serious now. You agree that Venmar deserves towncredit for the NS lynch in any way?

[Wisdom]

k
I'm done here
VOTE: qwints

AP I don't know how the fuck you see the slightest town motivation in qwints, please sit down and reread.

[Wisdom]

You can't be serious now. You agree that Venmar deserves towncredit for the NS lynch in any way?

Venmar deserves some town cred for making a challenge that ends in a scum lynch. Yes.

Bullshit. His sole motivation was to lynch me. He never wanted to lynch NS.

[Wisdom]

pppedit: He DID challenge a group with a scum in it though, so whats wrong with Qwints pointing that out?

You can't be serious now. You agree that Venmar deserves towncredit for the NS lynch in any way?

Qwints has been in the game for less than a day and you are grilling him over notes hes making on a 65 page game. If his notes sounds like IIoA, its probably because he just replaced into a clusterfuckery of a game and is trying to keep the timeline of events clear in his head (a null tell) and noted that Venmar made the challenge for later reference. Its not like hes townreading Venmar really strongly for that, wtf?

P-edit: lol fuck you too. Everything qwints has said really hasn't made much of an impression either way except the fact that he willingly auditing himself in the thread is a light towntell.

dude how the fuck are you not seeing that the whole notes thing is bullshit?

[Wisdom]

AP, I suggest you relax for now and come back and reread later. You're being stupid right now.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, will you at least agree that scum has an incentive not to challenge another team that has scum on it? That's why it's a small point in Venmar's favor.

No. AP was a popular scumread at the time and Venmar-scum could know that even if he didn't get me lynched, AP would still get lynched.
I don't think that's likely due to his reaction test ofc, but that's another story.
The point is that Venmar does not gain any town points for that challenge, since he never contributed in a NS lynch.

[Wisdom]

YOU ASSERTING THAT QWINTS HAS READ ALL 65 PAGES AND CALLING HIM SCUMMY FOR NOT HAVING MORE CONTENT AS A RESULT.

That's not why I'm calling him scummy. That's why I'm telling you that you need to reread when you have relaxed.

[Wisdom]

Venmar-scum could easily have created a lynch-pool with ONE scum by challenging a two-townie team or a team with only one person on it.

Except that would make absolutely no sense given everything he had said and done until that point. The whole game he was tunneling on me and calling me scum. It would be hypocrisy if he challenged anyone else.

[Wisdom]

He had shown eagerness to challenge me in the beginning of the game, and he had stated he will challenge me in the end of D1. He did not exactly have much choice.

[Wisdom]

Anyway I don't know why I'm arguing this with you. Venmar is probably town. Your reasons are just terribad.
We're done here.

[Wisdom]

How do we challenge people and how does it work? I'm willing to start challenging people.

Who would you have challenged and why?

AP or Wisdom, because I think they're scum.

[Wisdom]

Challenging anyone other than me after that would be hypocrisy. So saying that he would challenge someone else as scum is bullshit.
I don't think he's scum, but he does NOT gain any town points from the challenge, period.

[Wisdom]

No you haven't. You never explained in detail what makes Venmar town, your AP townread is too vague (even AP said he doesn't know what you're reading him as), and your Majiffy townread was strong for bullshit reasons at first, yet you're starting to "freak out" now. As for your read on me.. as I said you should have townread me ages ago but you don't, and it's weird.

[Wisdom]

And who else did you townread again? Grim? Please explain your townread on Grim.

[Wisdom]

are you freaking out about venny wis tell me tell me now

Nope, try to read the game next time

[Wisdom]

"put himself front and central"
How the fuck did he do that? You have yet to explain that to me.

[Wisdom]

What is your read on qwints?

[Wisdom]

Show me where you explained your townread on Grim

[Wisdom]

Mollie, keep making posts because each one you make makes me townread you harder.

I'm not even going to respond to you. qwints is obvscum and if you don't see it I can't help you.

[Wisdom]

no mollie, when YOU are town you sense I'm town in an instant. Yet now I'm probably playing my most obvtown game ever and you keep claiming you don't have a townread on me. Go tell these tales to someone else.

[Wisdom]

Also no you didn't explain why Venmar would somehow draw attention by using a reaction test. That's nonsense.

[Wisdom]

Nope AP, we're lynching qwints today.

[Wisdom]

we've been giving a free-pass to both Majiffy (his challenge) and AngryPidgeon (his real-life anecdotes) a bit too easily.

But not mollie?

[Wisdom]

Holy fuck people. Grim is scum, and so is mollie most likely, and they both DONT make any sense as scum with Amrun.

And how can anyone think that the Safety slot became better? qwints is fucking obvscum.

[Wisdom]

Seriously I don't get how anyone doesn't see this.
He does not have a read on 3 people after 65 pages.
I ask him why and he says this:

@Wisdom, I'm conflicted on two and null on the thrird.

I've got a legal pad filled with red and black for you and venmar

, and somehow read the game without making any notes on enomis.

I instantly smell bullshit and ask him to out all those "notes", and all he gives us is this:

[red]Venmar - slip after Amrun's townslip. x2. Venmar idiocy.[/red]
[black]Venmar challenged scum. Venmar's goading of Wisdom[/black]

[black] Wisdom ---> Grimm. Wisdom's early town clearing[/black]
[red]Grim--->SC Wisdom/Grimm 770]; SC's 410 ------> inconsistency Wisdom b/w majiffy and mollie[/red]

which doesn't even make any sense as was explained afterwards.

Why don't people see this is bullshit?

[Wisdom]

Mollie is town, her posts are of such a genuinity (guinineness?) that they cannot be faked. It is impossible to do.

yeah no. Go read some of her games before saying such crap.

[Wisdom]

If Amrun is still there the next daystage, I will challenge her myself.

Good. We lynch the obvscum today, then you do that.

[Wisdom]

You'll have to accept my gut on that.

I don't care about your gut. mollie is probably scum for all the reasons I said. If you cannot give us reasons for mollie-town other than saying false things about her making "genuine" posts (when they are not even genuine and even if they were, it's not past mollie to fake them), you just make me more confident that you're her buddy.

[Wisdom]

Because read the game.

[Wisdom]

You L-1'd NS and your mind was on lynching Amrun.
That's scum behavior and instantly proves Amrun is not your buddy.
That's what.

[Wisdom]

I don't have my mind set on lynching you. I want to lynch qwints. Get your facts straight.

[Wisdom]

I don't lynch people to clarify things. I lynch them because they're scum.

[Wisdom]

I'm sick of this game.
Fucking lynch qwints, Grim and mollie already.

[Wisdom]

Fine, I'll take you AtE.
I obviously did not read your game again, I might as well start reading the Bible, but pff, I thought about it.
I'd feel bad about letting you slide once again in case you do end up being scum, but I'd feel worse if you're actual town having put a lot of effort in this game and letting Nobody Special being lurksack lazy scum with 11 posts live on. Somehow doesn't seem fair.
So yeah, congrats, your AtE worked.
But I still think your play vis-à-vis Amrun has been very dubious. I hope you agree she is the next one to lynch and won't be throwing around any wild scenraios again just to make her seem town somehow. She is obvscum.

VOTE: Nobody Special

This is

L-1

.

I do think last words from Nobody Special are in order.

qwints read this. He brings NS to L-1, and at the same post, he talks about how Amrun is obvscum and needs to go next.
On what planet do scum bus someone and at the same time plan the next bussing?
No. Either Grim is scum who bussed NS and planned the next mislynch (therefore Amrun is town), or Grim is town who didn't think NS would be scum and focused on the next scumlynch. In either case, they are not scum together.

[Wisdom]

Grim.
If Amrun is town, what is the scumteam?

[Wisdom]

Umm.
One scum has flipped. You don't need to have four people in the scumteam. Just three.

[Wisdom]

I currently see either
qwints/Grimgroove/mollie

or

Amrun/Venmar/??

[Wisdom]

None of qwints, Grim or mollie make sense as scum with Amrun. And Venmar is just based on his push on "Amrun/Wisdom". So I really have no clue who is scum if she flips scum.

[Wisdom]

What is the connection between Amrun/Elyse?

[Wisdom]

Yes.

[Wisdom]

@Grim
No, because of her 1245, 1247, 1249. Scum that know their buddy is flipping scum don't act this way.

[Wisdom]

qwints, what scumteam are you seeing if Amrun is town? If she's scum?

[Wisdom]

the fuck

enomis is town

[Wisdom]

Also why do you see Venmar as scum if Amrun is town but not if she's scum?

[Wisdom]

No based on his posts being genuine and transparent.

[Wisdom]

Why does it read like typical bussing to me?
Especially if you include the fact he's trying to call both me and Amrun scum in 1407.
The only thing that gives me pause is that he could go for anyone else other than Amrun yet he's going after Amrun. Scum that just lost a partner won't go for bussing.

[Wisdom]

So, my money is on either SafetyDance or Amrun atm.

Especially since he said that and therefore could easily go for Safety instead.

So yeah I guess I'm wrong there.

[Wisdom]

Anyway
VOTE: Amrun

We need the info regardless.

[Wisdom]

Because I know for a fact mollie is able to fake anything, while I don't know that for enomis.
But I haven't seen anything from mollie that I would call genuine.

[Wisdom]

Grim, who was it that was calling you a newb early on?

[Wisdom]

enomis what is your read on qwints?

[Wisdom]

I'm feeling Amrun X mollie, Amrun x qwints, and possibly Amrun x enomis are also very unlikely.

[Wisdom]

Elyse is the only one I can see making sense as scum with Amrun, really.
And maybe AP.
Everyone else doesn't.

[Wisdom]

Are you sure you read that correctly?

[Wisdom]

Because of Amrun's post in your QT. She wanted to make you lynch Safety. Of course they could be buddies and she just wants to survive, but I find it more likely that they're not both scum, one being the counterwagon to the other and everything.

And I don't know, I keep changing my mind on who I should believe in this game. One second I think Amrun is obvscum, then I think she's saying the truth, then I get convinced otherwise again. I really don't know but I think that Amrun is the best lynch because we can gain information. And qwints is, unlike Safety, at least active and contributing, so even if he is scum we might get something out of his posts.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, cut the bullshit. If you are seriously lynching Amrun on the off chance that the team is explicitly Me/Her/Elyse then WTF?

I'm lynching Amrun because she's very likely scum. Nothing to do with who her buddies could be. And as I said, even if she's town we can probably gain some information from the pushes on her etc.

[Wisdom]

In post 1783, Wisdom wrote:On what planet do scum bus someone and at the same time plan the next bussing?


When you don't think that person is going to get lynched. Like I actuallypredicted an enomis lynch from this pool and turned out to be sadly mistaken. I would have guessed SD was getting lynched if not him though, so why not posture on Amrun? And its not like he had a choice when bussing NS; NS was going down at that point unless you somehow think a surprise Wisdom counterwagon was in the works at all.

No, that's my point. He knew NS is a goner and he was already planning the next lynch - the question is was he bussing and planning the next mislynch, or was he compromising and planning the next possible scumlynch?
I don't think he thought that Amrun is not getting lynched. He had made a very good point about her and he had my support on that, I think that he was very confident that Amrun will in fact get lynched.

Also wtf at both Grim and Wisdom connecting me to Amrun. Why the fuck are you guys doing that. If I wanted to save Amrun's bacon, I'd be shoving Qwints.

I'm not connecting you to Amrun. It's PoE. Other than Elyse I find it hard to believe anyone else could be scum with her.

@Wisdom: Why do you see Amrun/Venmar connected?

I thought it might be possible because of Venmar's [Both Amrun and Wisdom are scum] which I interepreted as "I'm bussing Amrun so I can push Wisdom harder next", but now that I reread after qwints pointed it out I found that less likely, since he could have pushed Safety instead.

They've been voting together since yesterday That should be obvious.

Voting together does not equal scumbuddies. Many times it's the opposite. I don't they're that obvious.

[Wisdom]

I don't lynch people to clarify things. I lynch them because they're scum.

Anyway
VOTE: Amrun

We need the info regardless.

Yet you're lynching Amrun for information. I need to let this stew in my head for a bit, but I really dont like you hedging your way onto the Amrun lynch as an 'info lynch' when you claim thats not your style.

I was angry when I posted 1774 because I thought qwints is obvscum and nobody is listening to me. However I reread and I can see that maybe I was just confbiased. His recent contributing posts also help in that regard. Also, I am not lynching her just for information. All the things I have said about her and accused her about did not suddenly disappear. She made me paranoid with that post where she showed how Grim is NS buddy and I thought for a moment that "Yes, it must be Grim, and that means Amrun can't be scum", but it could have been just AtE.

[Wisdom]

Seriously Wisdom wtf. you aren't blatantly cooking up scum motivated bullshit, are you?

Are you sure you can read? I said he did not give reads on 3 people (myself, Venmar and enomis)

[Wisdom]

I am one of the top posters

umm no you aren't.

[Wisdom]

you are lying my meta wisdom and you are pretty stupid for doing it cos is right there in my wiki and all anyone has to do is do a meta check to know that you are lying. you are also using the same intimidation and douchey tactics that you used on mara in polygamy. you are scum.

Did you say that you usually don't care and don't give a shit and are lazy in your scumgames after the end of Popcorn? Yes or no? Have you given any shits about this game? No. Why the fuck are you lying about being active in this game? Majiffy, who you're saying that has low activity, has MORE posts than you. I ask you to explain to me how the fuck using a reaction test brings attention on the one who is doing it (because that's fucking ridiculous) and your answer is "it does, period". Is that not being lazy?

[Wisdom]

Or when you were calling AP town because "he didn't unvote"? What the fuck did unvoting have to do with the reaction test or anything that we were discussing at that time?

[Wisdom]

oh really

prove it

Weren't you gloating at the end of Popcorn that you have like 100+ mafia games and you're really good at it and stuff? Why would I assume that you cannot fake things?

[Wisdom]

oh okay it is okay for you to change your mind but not grim and god forbid I say that I am not as comfortable with majiffy as I would like to be

you are so fucking scummy it is a joke at this point

Where the fuck did I say that it's not okay for Grim to change his mind?

[Wisdom]

So? I'd be more suspicious if he had firm reads on the entire playerlist without having done anything in the thread. This is a seriously forced point you are pushing.

I thought that if he didn't have firm reads on us, he would have multiple points why we could be town and why we could be scum. But he practically had fuckall. That's why I didn't like it.

[Wisdom]

But really? I dont usually null-read people because they drop town and scum tells at the same time.

Well he comes and claims he doesn't have a read on me.
What should I assume?

[Wisdom]

That hes scum?

Let me try saying it outloud. He reads you as null....so you should assume hes scum. No, not seeing why you are all up in arms about his nullread on you. And IIRC you were more concerned about his nullread on Venny.

No, I mean. He says he doesn't have a read on me. So I assume, from his read, he got "

these

things show town-Wisdom, but hmm.. there are

these

things that could show scum-Wisdom. Therefore I don't have a read on him"
And that's what I asked him to do.
But he didn't have anything.

[Wisdom]

Or when you were calling AP town because "he didn't unvote"? What the fuck did unvoting have to do with the reaction test or anything that we were discussing at that time?

i already explained that. and I am not going to play anymore of your bullshit games

you are doing the exact same thing that you did to mara in polygamy, using the exact same tactics.

on one hand you are saying that I can fake anything as scum and then on the other hand you misrep my play in this game by saying I am being lazy. <----- what have I done that is lazy I mean if it is so obvious why don't you point it out.

No you didn't explain it.
And you didn't explain how the fuck Venmar's reaction test would bring attention on him either.
I am still waiting for explanations to both of these.

[Wisdom]

oh okay it is okay for you to change your mind but not grim and god forbid I say that I am not as comfortable with majiffy as I would like to be

you are so fucking scummy it is a joke at this point

Where the fuck did I say that it's not okay for Grim to change his mind?

where you were banging on about how he was scum

Quote it. Quote me saying that Grim changing his mind is scummy.

[Wisdom]

Why would "doesn't have a read" necessarily mean "I feel both ways about you" as opposed to "I really don't feel either way about you?"

Because I do not see how someone cannot feel either way after reading ~600 posts of me.

[Wisdom]

Why would "doesn't have a read" necessarily mean "I feel both ways about you" as opposed to "I really don't feel either way about you?"

Because I do not see how someone cannot feel either way after reading ~600 posts of me.

It's hard to parse 62 pages of posts that quickly. I got relational tells, and predictions for how you'd behave with each alignment, but not a definitive read. (Y'all are talking about me, right?)

Yeah, that's my point. That's why I thought that you would have some towntells and some scumtells for those you didn't have a read on as opposed to nothing like AP says.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, why did you tell Amrun to do that?

Because we agreed on that the previous day. See 1200.

[Wisdom]

So basically you skimmed the thread (which is acceptable, not accusing you for that or anything) and found only 1 point for town/scum for each of us. You didn't actually read the whole thread and only had 1 point on each of us. Is that right? Because I assumed the latter and I couldn't understand how you only had these small things over tons of things that have been happening.

[Wisdom]

I'm not seeing where Amrun agreed to that

She did in 1221.

[Wisdom]

No worries, i will challenge the green monkey on day 3.

And so did enomis in the next post, btw.

[Wisdom]

tbh I don't know if I'm not that confident about my enomis townread. I was following a game that just ended and I was very confident enomis was town there, but he wasn't.

[Wisdom]

I don't know if I'm that confident*

[Wisdom]

newbscum

Why do you keep calling him a newbie? He played an awesome scumgame in Everybody's being Watched; but besides that, how do you know he doesn't have offsite experience?

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, please remind me what your current read on Elyse is again.

I think she is town because of how she handled the NS lynch (see 1796) but other than that I don't have a strong read on her. It will greatly depend on how Amrun flips.

[Wisdom]

cos if he had offsite experience he would be using it to say "hey I am not a newb!" and he isn't.

And why do you rule out the possibility that he WANTS to be called newbtown because he's actually scum and that's why he doesn't say that?

[Wisdom]

wis where is all of that awsum meta where I can fake anything as scum I am still waiting for that. also you have yet to explain how I am being lazy.

I answered both of these, I'm still waiting for your explanations.

[Wisdom]

yes

[Wisdom]

As I've already stated, no. But I also don't think everyone plays exactly the same in every game.

[Wisdom]

Which is not a mistake. I do the same thing.

You have probably convinced me you're town now.