Mafiascum.net

Who is your scumteam pick?

In post 399, sangres wrote:Bulbazak/CO seems particularly likely at the moment.

Okay, this is exactly what I was thinking and if you are town, that's who I would say is scum.

Idk, maybe I was completely off in my read on ffery. I'll think more on it. Bulbazak's reads make no sense. Neither do Chaos's. But yours do.

Pedit: I was pretty damn sure ffery was scum and was trying to see who would make sense with you-scum. Now I am thinking you are town and Bulb and Chaos are the scumteam.

Nacho, why is TIP town? I have a hard time getting a read on him either way.

I originally had a townread on TiP because I wouldn't expect him to keep up with the blatantly anti-town bit after he was weirding Purple Rose out with it in the pregame, but it's going stale because the anti-town shtick is continuing and his scumgame is pretty much "coast on too scummy to be town".

Well, it used to be his scumgame. He evolved past that in the walking dead.

Okay, I'll the game to meta him.

The one thing I don't get about Bulb-Chaos is why they would both push a Pitoli lynch. I'd expect a scumteam to go for different targets.

I would too, although Chaos suspecting pitoli/TPR but not actually putting a vote down could be because he doesn't want to be on the same wagon with Bulba so early.

Well then why don't you two stop jerking each other off and either one of you vote for either one of your top two scumreads.

And I hadn't voted for pitoli because I wasn't done going through my initial thoughts after replacing. I'd love to be on a wagon with Bulba.

Now they sound less like partners.

CO seems better in general.

In post 395, sangres wrote:

In post 31, Bulbazak wrote:I think it's more likely to be Pitoli, rather than F-16. F-16 looks like he's trying to figure things out, while all Pitoli wanted to do was wagon.

This was an extremely easy townread on F-16, which sort of creeps me out.

What creeps you out about it?

In post 395, sangres wrote:

In post 78, Bulbazak wrote:Neither do I. It's exciting, isn't it? But I'm pretty sure that Pitoli is scum. Vote her with me.

This sort of tunneling creeps me the hell out and looks scummy as fuck, but I've been burned quite a few times lately for getting after Bulbazak for tunneling, but the way he's going about it is a pretty much the opposite that he usually does as town, which creeps me the hell out a bit more.

I'm starting to think we have a different definition of tunneling. Yours seems to be "keeping a vote on someone".

In post 395, sangres wrote: This is a stupid reason for scumreading pitoli; people usually get out of RVS in different ways, so "wagonning for reactions" shouldn't be one that's so horrible where it's worthy of a deathtunnel.

I wouldn't call it a deathtunnel. I wasn't devoting that much effort to getting her lynched. Why do you think parking your vote on a scumread is deathtunneling?

In post 395, sangres wrote:

In post 161, Bulbazak wrote:

In post 158, pitoli wrote:His push on me started out fine but I don't like how he won't even

entertain

the thought of town-me

Scum never do like not being thought of as town.

I don't even know how this works; doesn't being tunneled with people not seeing any chance of being town frustrate the hell out of you as well?

It does, but I try to argue against their case on me and create a discussion. What I don't do is say "Why aren't you even entertaining the idea that I might be town?".

In post 395, sangres wrote: Why didn't you like his early game? You said you liked it when you were pushing him earlier.

I thought I saw evidence of him trying to figure things out, but it never really seemed to click with me as I thought it would. That's the problem I've had with his play so far: it just seems off.

In post 395, sangres wrote:

In post 216, Bulbazak wrote:Party pooper. With that, I have solid townreads on TIP and ETL.

Why?

TIP performed a fakehammer reaction test on Rose, which I felt came from town motivation. ETL had a genuine town reaction.

In post 395, sangres wrote: Why are you playing differently than you normally do?

I've been dissatisfied with my town game for awhile now. I have close to 20 games completed, and I only have a win rate of 50%. When you dissect the game stats even further, most of those wins come from my scum games, making my win rate as town even worse. I've also had several recent games, most noteworthy being Newbie 1412 and Newbie 1429, that brought me to the realization that I would need to change my town game if I was to succeed in the future and reach the level that I've been aiming for. To that effect, I've identified parts of my town game that I like, and I have been reading up on a few of Mastin's articles and also reflecting on what has and hasn't worked in the past. One of the pieces of advice I've taken to heart is that in order to keep my play sharp, I have to enjoy playing the games I'm in, which is part of what you're seeing here.

In post 395, sangres wrote: just when I was starting to get some sort of grasp of your towngame, you change things up on me.

I understand how disconcerting this must be, but I'd rather be a good player than a predictable one. How many players do you know where you can tell the differences between their town and scum games, but yet they're really not that great at the game? I don't want to fall in that category.

In post 395, sangres wrote:

In post 380, Bulbazak wrote:Because Nacho hasn't made an impression on me so far. Therefore, although I've put the hydra to the side to sort later, I'm still wary of them.

Why are you trying to read me over ffery?

I'm not. Ffery's just as difficult for me to read, if not even more so. I was just stating, in general, what I do when I play with you or one of your hydras.

In post 396, sangres wrote:

In post 394, Bulbazak wrote:Come on, Nacho. You know that this isn't the worst I've ever tunneled a read.

Not at all.

You can't be serious. Heck, you saw what I did to Cephrir in NY 165. How can you seriously say I'm tunneling Pitoli after you've seen that?

In post 396, sangres wrote: What ended up changing your mind?

I never said I changed my mind. F-16 just became a stronger read.

In post 396, sangres wrote:

In post 394, Bulbazak wrote:Okay, can you state this in simpler terms? Are you saying he's scum or town?

Town. Why do you disagree?

Like I said, his actions this game just haven't clicked for me like I'd expect they would if he was town. I tried my best to see him as town, but his play is just not giving me those warm, fuzzy, F-16-town feelings.

In post 407, ChaosOmega wrote:I'd love to be on a wagon with Bulba.

You could always join me on F-16.

Bulbazak, what about my play seems "off?" What did you expect to "click" regarding my play?

ETL, what are your thoughts on the game so far?

In post 411, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Bulbazak, what about my play seems "off?" What did you expect to "click" regarding my play?

If I could explain it any better I would. Your play just seems very erratic to me and not as stable as I'd expect it to be. It's kinda shaky, I guess. I keep trying to see it coming from town, and no matter how hard I try, I just can't. It just doesn't feel natural.

In post 412, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:ETL, what are your thoughts on the game so far?

I'm behind a few pages and kind of tired. I'll catch up tomorrow and respond to everything.

In post 413, Bulbazak wrote:

In post 411, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Bulbazak, what about my play seems "off?" What did you expect to "click" regarding my play?

If I could explain it any better I would. Your play just seems very erratic to me and not as stable as I'd expect it to be. It's kinda shaky, I guess. I keep trying to see it coming from town, and no matter how hard I try, I just can't. It just doesn't feel natural.

Well, I am town and this is how I am playing. I think there is the possibility that you could be town and I am really trying to understand where you are coming from. Explain it the best you can.

In post 415, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Explain it the best you can.

When you're town, your play is a little more solid. The way you make observations, how you meta dive, even how you interact with players, they all seem to have a very solid, very logical foundation. You come across as very confident, like you believe what you're saying. Now, you can emulate that pretty well as scum, but upon closer inspection, the arguments and overall play are not as solid, and the foundation is a bit shaky. It's like you know what you're saying is false, and evidence of that seeps through in how you present yourself. I'm not getting that town confidence in your play.

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:What creeps you out about it?

It just bothered me because you aren't the type to trust so easily, especially based on something that incredibly null.

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:I'm starting to think we have a different definition of tunneling. Yours seems to be "keeping a vote on someone".

I got the sense of tunneling from the "pitoli scum, vote pitoli". I'm glad that sense was incorrect, but the timing of your vote switch is pretty fucking off.

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:I wouldn't call it a deathtunnel. I wasn't devoting that much effort to getting her lynched. Why do you think parking your vote on a scumread is deathtunneling?

You weren't, but your tone had the tone of one of your deathtunnels.

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:It does, but I try to argue against their case on me and create a discussion. What I don't do is say "Why aren't you even entertaining the idea that I might be town?".

True.

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:That's the problem I've had with his play so far: it just seems off.

What seems off?

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:I've been dissatisfied with my town game for awhile now. I have close to 20 games completed, and I only have a win rate of 50%. When you dissect the game stats even further, most of those wins come from my scum games, making my win rate as town even worse. I've also had several recent games, most noteworthy being Newbie 1412 and Newbie 1429, that brought me to the realization that I would need to change my town game if I was to succeed in the future and reach the level that I've been aiming for. To that effect, I've identified parts of my town game that I like, and I have been reading up on a few of Mastin's articles and also reflecting on what has and hasn't worked in the past. One of the pieces of advice I've taken to heart is that in order to keep my play sharp, I have to enjoy playing the games I'm in, which is part of what you're seeing here.

I see.

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:How can you seriously say I'm tunneling Pitoli after you've seen that?

I was agreeing with that statement.

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:I never said I changed my mind. F-16 just became a stronger read.

Why at that point specifically?

In post 413, Bulbazak wrote:Your play just seems very erratic to me and not as stable as I'd expect it to be.

Examples of this?

Bulbazak, what do you find "erratic" about my play? You've seen me play in N is for Newbie and I wouldn't characterize my play there as "erratic." In fact, I'd say that in some ways, it fit my town meta more closely than this game. That just shows you are looking for the wrong things since I am not playing to the way I played as scum. I suggest you look at more of my town and scum games to see if you can find patterns that will help you get a good read. I generally find it difficult to emulate my town playstyle as scum so meta-ing me will be fruitful. Also, keep in mind that my play when under pressure is different than my play when no one has FOSsed me. When suspected, a large part of my time goes into defending myself which makes it much more difficult to post analysis, and in general be analytical. There is a higher level of emotional involvement in the game when suspected as opposed to everyone in the game calling me obvtown which happened quite a few times.

This game was one where I was heavily FOSsed and wagoned: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=24222

The rest of my games are on my wiki which I keep updated so you can check there.

My concern with your play has been that I disagree with the conclusions you've made so much that I feel they are unjustified. Your FOS on Pitoli is one such example. I also don't like that switched to me after Pitoli expressed suspicion of me. It seemed like you thought you could get her support in lynching me while there was no way you would get mine in lynching her so you thought I was the more viable lynch since I was more confident in my townreads and would defend them harder. What made you change from saying one of me/Pitoli are scum but not both to having us as a likely scumteam?

In post 417, sangres wrote:

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:What creeps you out about it?

It just bothered me because you aren't the type to trust so easily, especially based on something that incredibly null.

I sometimes use what I know or think I know about a person's play via experiential meta to help me form an early read.

In post 417, sangres wrote: the timing of your vote switch is pretty fucking off.

I actually had wanted to vote him earlier, but I held off, because I felt that I might be biased. But the uneasiness I felt regarding his play didn't go away.

In post 417, sangres wrote: your tone had the tone of one of your deathtunnels.

Maybe. As I said, Pitoli wasn't giving me much to work with one way or the other.

In post 417, sangres wrote:

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:That's the problem I've had with his play so far: it just seems off.

What seems off?

It didn't seem genuine.

In post 417, sangres wrote:

In post 410, Bulbazak wrote:I never said I changed my mind. F-16 just became a stronger read.

Why at that point specifically?

The growing sense of unease I had toward F-16 finally became too much.

In post 418, sangres wrote:

In post 413, Bulbazak wrote:Your play just seems very erratic to me and not as stable as I'd expect it to be.

Examples of this?

There was his reaction to ETL, which felt a little forced, although not enough to set off immediate alarm bells. There was his trying to force a townread out of me. He may not admit that he was doing so, but that's what it felt like. Almost like he was saying "Don't leave me as null! Read me as solid town! Don't judge me off of associations! Read me as solid town!". Finally, I didn't like the way he defended Pitoli. He didn't give much evidence to why he found her to be so strongly town. Sure, he may have mentioned her as a townread every now and then, but really, nothing beyond that. Then, all of a sudden, he starts strongly attacking me for thinking she might be scum. Heck, as you know, I wasn't even tunneling her. My vote was just sitting there while I interacted with the thread. His attacking and defending her that strongly out of nowhere immediately started pinging my scumdar.

P-edit: I only use experiential meta, or meta that I have experience with. This is mainly because I don't have the time to meta dive like I used to. As for why I started considering that you might be scum with Pitoli, or even without her still, it was mainly because of your chainsaw defense of her (or WK if she's town), which came out of nowhere. That immediately made my scumdar go off.

In post 420, Bulbazak wrote:There was his trying to force a townread out of me. He may not admit that he was doing so, but that's what it felt like. Almost like he was saying "Don't leave me as null! Read me as solid town! Don't judge me off of associations! Read me as solid town!".

Why would he be so concerned with being townread as scum?

In post 420, Bulbazak wrote:Finally, I didn't like the way he defended Pitoli. He didn't give much evidence to why he found her to be so strongly town. Sure, he may have mentioned her as a townread every now and then, but really, nothing beyond that.

This isn't bad.

What do you think of our townread on pitoli? What are your thoughts on pitoli now?

Bulbazak, I am not liking is that you are repeating your misinterpretations of events that have already been clarified. I get that you could honestly mistake my push on you as asking you to read me as town (and we would stretching it). But I've already explained that I would have been perfectly fine if you had read me as scum. My push to get you to read me was because I suspected that you wanted to push both my and Pitoli's lynches even after one flipped town.

My defense of Pitoli didn't come out of nowhere nor was it sudden. I indicated suspicion of you as early as page 4. My sequence of posts from 86, 87, 89, and 91 indicate my discomfort with your hedging on me. I can see your thought process here coming from town though. (When someone defends your scumread, assume that that person is scum chainsawing or WKing). You are not considering the fact that both Pitoli and I could be town and you are wrong about both. That would take a lot of re-evaluation and effort to consider but is the better play.

One scum in {F-16, Bulbazak, Sangres}. Yes? Yes.