Mini 1543--Natirasha's On Parole!(Game Over)

[Nachomamma8]

You could push that angle as long as at least (1) of his vig candidates was still alive, no?

[Nachomamma8]

Which, considering his vig candidates were two favored mislynches and the guy you were tunneling on to make yourself look town (although I also can't comprehend how you got a scumread on Bert), it was pretty easy to make the bet that someone would still be around to push.

[Nachomamma8]

like if it weren't impossible for me to be scum with you, i couldn't push this angle. if, say, notscience was in his vig list and not you, i couldn't push this angle

you're not this fucking dumb

I mean, normally you wait until MyLo and you're in a 1v1 with said person, you just got the opportunity to pull it out a bit early.

[Nachomamma8]

Unless you think both people being alive in 4 players or less isn't a reason for you two not to be scum together, of course.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay.
Let's go through a small exercise.
Who else would block Cabd?

[Nachomamma8]

And his vig list was Aronis-Bert-Nacho, correct?

[Nachomamma8]

So you're trying to sell me on an argument for you being town that I

know

is incorrect.

[Nachomamma8]

Like, 100% know is incorrect.
No idea how, but I know it is incorrect.

[Nachomamma8]

And when I see night actions not making sense from anyone, I assume something wonky.
I don't assume that you who is better at night actions than everyone else didn't make those actions: because I have no understanding of them, they mean nothing to me and I can't judge what is good/bad.

[Nachomamma8]

let's play a little exercise nacho

D3 mylo where no one in the scum team of {ns, muffin, goodfather} is highly suspected

or long, laborious process drawn out for no reason on the off chance i could MAYBE use it to semi-confirm myself IF everything played out according to plan even though it was completely unnecessary in comparison to the optimal play N2 (making it D3 mylo)

which do you think makes sense here?

You reaching D3 mylo.
I think the scumteam of {anyone, NS, godfather} is more benefited by going to D3 mylo, except for me if I'm afraid I'll get shot and think I will actually get away from the lynch the next day, which is still slightly reaching, but hey.

I know what you're selling me is wrong.
I don't care about the why because I know it is wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm just pointing out something real quick!

[Nachomamma8]

I think the scumteam of {anyone, NS, godfather} is more benefited by going to D3 mylo, except for me if I'm afraid I'll get shot and think I will actually get away from the lynch the next day, which is still slightly reaching, but hey

yes

and also any team of {X, you, goodfather} does not benefit from risking you being shot

and i'm the only one (apart from cabd) who cannot be scum with you

we're reaching a breakthrough here

So this means that one if two things is true.
Either I am scum with someone, or the entire case you're pushing is wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

I know you have a preference for one over the other here, but if you could just bear with me a little while longer

[Nachomamma8]

I think the scumteam of {anyone, NS, godfather} is more benefited by going to D3 mylo, except for me if I'm afraid I'll get shot and think I will actually get away from the lynch the next day, which is still slightly reaching, but hey

yes

and also any team of {X, you, goodfather} does not benefit from risking you being shot

and i'm the only one (apart from cabd) who cannot be scum with you

we're reaching a breakthrough here

So this means that one if two things is true.
Either I am scum with someone, or

the entire case you're pushing is wrong.

And this means that no one is townier, no one is scummier as a result of said case.

[Nachomamma8]

Muffin? You still alive, buddy?

[Nachomamma8]

so even if you were somehow town, you're ignoring the fact that there is LITERALLY no reason for that scum team to not bring it to D3 mylo

Why is there a reason for any other scumteam not to bring it to D3 MyLo?

[Nachomamma8]

so even if you were somehow town, you're ignoring the fact that there is LITERALLY no reason for that scum team to not bring it to D3 mylo

Why is there a reason for any other scumteam not to bring it to D3 MyLo?

[Nachomamma8]

Spoiler: Nacho exclusive content

I'm a lazy fucker so sum up your entire position in ONE nice concise reply to this and toss it in a spoiler tag or something with my name on it. You're talking in circles.

I'm town.
I'm currently happy talking in these circles, so you can be a good Cabd and continue sitting in the back and doing nothing.

[Nachomamma8]

Why is there a reason for any other scumteam not to bring it to D3 MyLo?

there isn't

but the question shouldn't be "is there a reason?" but whether other scum players think in a logical and efficient way like i do

coz you could make an argument for, say, guyett being a derpfuck and not thinking logically about it

but you cannot make the same argument for me

So either: guyett derped, or there isn't a reason and there's something I'm missing.

[Nachomamma8]

also no other scum team would have benefited from a D3 mylo in the same way as a {ns, muffin, goodfather} team because no other team was basically beyond suspicion

so it makes even LESS sense to assume that team than any other

If no scumteam would have passed up the chance to go to D3 mylo, then it doesn't matter who benefitted the most unless there wasn't a significant gap between D3 mylo and alternative.

[Nachomamma8]

And your scumteam wouldn't benefit any more than any others to the point where it makes you obvtown and another scum, considering Notscience-Goodfather scumteam is a wrap that point and is all the reason to go to D3 MyLo that you really need.

[Nachomamma8]

"to the point where it makes you obvtown and the others scum"

[Nachomamma8]

And no, I don't know this is not how things would have played out if you were scum.
I know the premise is faulty, for one reason or another. So, I'm not going to draw conclusions from it.

If you are town, there are other reasons you are town, no?

[Nachomamma8]

Hey hey notscience. I see you posting literally everywhere else. Come fucking pay.

Do you stil not see that he's obvious scum, or...?

[Nachomamma8]

Just hammer him

Nocomments on anything that's happened recently?

[Nachomamma8]

unvote

[Nachomamma8]

shit, NS is town

[Nachomamma8]

He can't post pictures as scum, man.
He just can't.

[Nachomamma8]

Yea.
And I can only see one of them, so it might not be as townie as the first one but the first one was pretty townie.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you think I might be wrong?

[Nachomamma8]

Oh I got paranoid of being wrong for a second and followed the link on his post.
You can't ground Spiderman, ha ha!

[Nachomamma8]

Oh.
Okay then.

I guess he isn't town.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, but I didn't think he noticed.
I thought it was just something he did when he was feeling it and he never really felt it as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

here is a tentative list of other reads:
Town:
Ross williams,
idiotking

null leaning town:
Bert
katsuki (asked some dec questions, although his initlal comment about rule 6 was more similar to my interpretation than that of others)
mafiaSSK (already talked about a bit.)

null:
muffin man (his post style really throws me off)
Four Trouble (been going back and forth on their posts. Gonna stay null til I hear more)


null leaning scum:
Cabd(overactivity first 6 pages, and then suddenly disappearing. Could just actually be sick. Could be avoiding the spotlight)
Selkies,
kabooooom and kingkenny and other lurkers
aronis (seems to be attempting to blend)

Nacho/NS/Goodfather team means that Goodfather put both of his partners in the "and other lurkers slot". I find his preoccupation with Muffin's style (it seems to be for being aggressive, but you'd think he'd be more likely to be confused by hydra play) strange, and him using it as an excuse to null read the slot is strange.

[Nachomamma8]

As well as pretty fucking convenient for scum partners, just in case you didn't catch the meaning of strange the first time around.

[Nachomamma8]

And he did find hydras strange: his uncomfortability with hydras equalled a vote, his uncomfortability with muffin equalled a null read, so earlier statement isn't 100% true.

[Nachomamma8]

Lol nacho is at L-2 now.

Wanna vote me so NS can quickhammer? It wouldn't be anything I haven't experienced before.

[Nachomamma8]

So I am gonna be busy taking care of family stuff irl for the next day or two, so i thought i'd post now before i won't have a chance to. Seems like i have a wagon on me, and it seems like its nobody's fault but mine for not being particularly active this game. I don't wanna to be lynched today, so here a breakdown of how i see the game so far:

1. MafiaSSK* - 135 ( seemingly blindly accepts a case on katsuki), 166 (another blind acceptance of a selkies lynch), 231 (gets convinced by selkies of a muffin lynch) 236 and 914 (defends aronis the first time, then jumps on the lynch)

over 100 plus posts with almost no content, multiple vote shifts with little to no justification except for blindly accepting other arguments. 270 is the only semblance of scumhunting

SSK is one of my scum reads

2. Cabd - town; seems to be scumhunting in earnest

3. Selkies(fferyllt+orcinus_theoriginal) - null; not sure about selkies. Still adjusting to hydras

4. zMuffinMan - null leaning town; his playstyle is very foreign to me, a lot of his posts lack justification, but it seems as if he reserves his reasoning for posts like 590. out of the three in the neighborhood, he is 2nd most likely to be town imo (after IK and before aronis)

6. notscience King Kenny - null leaning town; this read is a lot my read on bert. Their posts, also kinda like nachos are more conversational than i am used to. i am also thrown off by the whole in thread qt thing they have going on.

7. The Goodfather** - town

8. Nachomamma8 kabooooom - like bert and NS, i am getting a mostly null vibe, but i am leaning scum just because that was how i read his slot while kaboooom was playing.

9. Bert Karlos4 - same as not science, null leaning town

11. Aronis** - scum (most likely scum in the neighborhood). He has changed his votes almost 10 times, altogether voting for 6 or 7 different people, with little to no reasoning each time. seems to just hop on whatever wagon is convenient

12. Idiotking* - like his playstyle, and i think he is the most likely town in the neighborhood

13. Katsuki* - scum - seems to be trying to skate by without doing anything. Maybe his meta, but if this is his town game, he is not an asset to our game at all

those are my thoughts.

I am gonna try to post more in the next couple of days, but i may be busy.

In this reads list, Goodfather assumes one scum in the neighborhood, which is a nice little mind game for him if he was scum and not in the neighborhood. Having both partners in null leaning town is odd, but not unheard of: interestingly enough, when talking about both Notscience and Muffin, he talks about how he's thrown off by their posting style, talks about how he doesn't like things they are doing... Yet they both end up as town.

[Nachomamma8]

Flashwagon on nacho?

I am not opposed to that tbh. He hasn't been active at all recently, and even when he was active he was not giving justification and he refused to claim.... tho at the time a lot of people that have claimed haven't iirc

it would accomplish more than my vote on selkies tbh.

Here, i'll start

UNVOTE: Selkies

VOTE: Nacho

This interaction makes us seem like pretty unlikely scum partners.

[Nachomamma8]

Had Day 1 lynch and Day 2 lynch as strong townreads, voted: Cabd, Selkies, Guyett, my slot. Didn't vote Notscience slot or muffin slot.

[Nachomamma8]

Of the dead, he voted SSK and Aronis.
He didn't vote Bert, Notscience, and Muffin, but he interacted with Bert a lot more than either Notscience or Muffin.

[Nachomamma8]

Aronis Kaboom and Goodfather

NS choosing to bus both partners early would be a strange decision.

[Nachomamma8]

Spoiler: \

Guys. This is a Nat game.

Vote: Natirasha

:goodvotes:

MafiaSSK(1): MafiaSSK

fuckin got em

Seriously, you guys are playing achingly pro-scum so far, regardless of your actual alignment. It's basically 6 pages of meaningless clutter.

*me goes to check his ISO*

Funny man, aren't you.

So. . . I'm going to guess MafiaSSK and FourTrouble are town.

So. . .

[VOTE: zMuffin]

Who the fuck are you and what is this bullshit

So. . . I'm going to guess MafiaSSK and FourTrouble are town.

So. . .

[VOTE: zMuffin]

So how about you describe your reason?

:townposting:

So. . . I'm going to guess MafiaSSK and FourTrouble are town.

So. . .

[VOTE: zMuffin]

So how about you describe your reason?

Seems like a decent vote, either him, Selkies, or Katsuki. They seem the most likely tk be scum. Do you have a better idea?

VOTE: Aronis

Seems like a decent vote, either him, Selkies, or Katsuki. They seem the most likely tk be scum. Do you have a better idea?

rereading, the inclusion of and only of all 3 wagons disturbs me like fuck.

IAWTP

This may be just putting a huge kick me sign on my back, but i looked at rule 6 a lot differently...

It hurts the town worse in my estimation. 13 players,, probably 3 or 4 scum. The burden falls on us as the town to make a decisive lynch, otherwise, we're basically asking natirasha to kill us herself...If, for example, we do not have a majority by the end of this dp, 9/14 times, a townie will be killed (assuming 4 scum).

I'm frankly suprised that i am the only one who sees it that way...

alright, i've said my bit, here you go:

If I turn to the next page and any less than 3 people comment on this being the biggest sack of bullshit ever I'm going to kick a puppy

goodfather probs town.

This is liable to make me kick a puppy.

goodfather probs town

i know why you're saying this but it's not a difficult thing to fake

:townposting:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

Glad to see my read on you is going to waffle all fucking game. Whoopie.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

Give Aronis a break, Cabd. I'm pretty sure they're new.

If Aronis flips scum we quicklynch the everliving fuck out of SSK.

So. . . I'm going to guess MafiaSSK and FourTrouble are town.

So. . .

[VOTE: zMuffin]

So how about you describe your reason?

Seems like a decent vote, either him, Selkies, or Katsuki. They seem the most likely tk be scum. Do you have a better idea?

Why are muffin, selkie and I scum?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

Give Aronis a break, Cabd. I'm pretty sure they're new.

interesting

Cool, Katsuki's town.

Also noting: Muffin is immediately a townread, Goodfather is immediately a scumread. Protect the good scum partner, bus the bad one.

[Nachomamma8]

...and, after that, not a single ,emotion of Muffin.
Not a single one.

[Nachomamma8]

Scumdoc, town nurse, town vig.... Sounds utterly like something nati would do.

What the hell, Cabd? I'm scum? Why, exactly?

your role pm reads scum

I dunno, that claim kinda makes sense in retrospect from GF.

:s

And this is the last interaction NS had with Goodfather, until the scumslip, which was a silent L-1 vote. Notscience interactions with me are numerous as fuck, and include his reaction to me voting him earlier and then my subsequent back off and much much more.

[Nachomamma8]

Muffin, what would a scumteam with you on it have done each day/night as far as mislynches/nightkills?

Actually nacho should answer this too.

Kill one of you or ffery night 1: probably you, considering I think you were townread pretty strongly at that point and ffery had already townread me. Rolecop whoever gave off vibes, don't really know who that would be.
Night 2, muffin dies. Roleblock you if you were still alive, probably.
Night 3 Bert kill is fine, would be a "who is towniest" kill since first two nights would take threats down enough to a manageable level. Kill SSK if I didn't want to mislynch him.
Further nights would depend on who is suspecting who and what angles I was planning to push for LyLo.

[Nachomamma8]

whole bunch of bullshit

interaction-hunting like that is the weakest form of scum hunting because it not only assumes you have some idea of how he treats his scum partners, but it's entirely possible to twist things any which way you want.

for example, even you you acknowledge how unlikely it is that a scum player would talk about both his partners in the same way and call them both null-leaning-town, you still call it "possible" because you need to. who he did or didn't vote was probably highly dependent on what were viable wagons (i was NEVER a viable wagon after the very first few pages of the game and notscience was never a viable wagon at any stage of the game iirc - so pointing out that he didn't vote us is like... durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... but you know this, and you probably don't care). it's also kinda dumb that you're like, "oh, he voted me, that makes me town!"

Interactions hunting is also an interesting point of reference for case-building because it's something you have minimal control over as scum: you can coach your scum partners in order for certain scenarios, but they have to accept your coaching, they have to implement it well, etc.

I've been essentially completely sold on Selkies and Guyett being town lately, so I've been putting a little thought into how to crack your armor. Interactions has ended up being pretty fucking fruitful so far.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, what are you thinking about notsci?

I think he's confirmed scum.
I also think that I don't want him to die right now because I want as much information as possible on the table before we go to night: it also gives Muffin a chance to defend his townread (which he continues to do none of).

My Notscience townread based on pictures was trolling, if that wasn't abundantly clear before.

[Nachomamma8]

whole bunch of bullshit

interaction-hunting like that is the weakest form of scum hunting because it not only assumes you have some idea of how he treats his scum partners, but it's entirely possible to twist things any which way you want.

for example, even you you acknowledge how unlikely it is that a scum player would talk about both his partners in the same way and call them both null-leaning-town, you still call it "possible" because you need to. who he did or didn't vote was probably highly dependent on what were viable wagons (i was NEVER a viable wagon after the very first few pages of the game and notscience was never a viable wagon at any stage of the game iirc - so pointing out that he didn't vote us is like... durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... but you know this, and you probably don't care). it's also kinda dumb that you're like, "oh, he voted me, that makes me town!"

Interactions hunting is also an interesting point of reference for case-building because it's something you have minimal control over as scum: you can coach your scum partners in order for certain scenarios, but they have to accept your coaching, they have to implement it well, etc.

I've been essentially completely sold on Selkies and Guyett being town lately, so I've been putting a little thought into how to crack your armor. Interactions has ended up being pretty fucking fruitful so far.

You and Notscience weren't viable wagons during any point of the game, true. Bert really wasn't a viable wagon of the game either: and yet, he ended up strongly town reading him and buddying up to him like crazy (similar way to how Notscience treated Bert). In the case of you and Notscience, you were null leaning townreads that he never understood, never attempted to understand, never voted.

My "he voted me, that makes me town!" is a bit more than that. Godfather immediately voted me after someone else suggested a flash wagon on me. That means either A) he was newbie scum who felt he had to bus after one person suggested a last minute wagon on me, or B) he was newbie scum white knighting the wagon choice of the day and thought creating another town wagon could only be good. I really wasn't a viable wagon at that point either: not a whole lot of people had banded together and voted me at that point, so it's not really like Goodfather would be feeling a particularly strong pressure to bus me.

Incidentally, that whole interaction also makes Guyett a lot more town: it seems unlikely to me that Goodfather would be comfortable enough helping start a flash wagon with a buddy in the way that unfolded.

[Nachomamma8]

also stuff like this is fucking hilarious

Nacho/NS/Goodfather team means that Goodfather put both of his partners in the "and other lurkers slot".

Having both partners in null leaning town is odd, but not unheard of

which, i guess, is a perfect example of twisting things in a way that suits your needs

i guess you've given up on trying to call me scum by play and now you're going with the durrrrrrrrr interactions route

Having two partners as null reading town is fine because it's essentially the most scumvenient place to put a partner. Null leaning town means that you don't have to join a wagon until the wagon's mostly on its way and that person has become significantly scummier: you don't get railroaded in the read when they lose cred, meaning you don't have to vote them when they get heat and you don't have to defend them. It is also a section in a reads list whereas a "lurker" slot is just that: one slot in an entire reads list where I don't really expect new scum to put both of their partners, even if both partners are lurking.

[Nachomamma8]

I demand a redo: I never voted Notscience.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought you were ffery for a moment and was excited.

[Nachomamma8]

Is bert still trying to push thru a NL? doesn;t make much sense to me, but something he said indicated to me that there is a site rule where the game is called early if there are 3 nights without a death? Can anyone clarify this rule as i haven't come across it yet on site

Nacho - let me get this straight. You have been playing with complete and utter apathy this whole game.... and you find muffin suspicious for not voting you?? Is this how you won that best town performance? by being a super troll? tbh, i liked your interactions with NS in the last few pages

NS - I have been thinking about muffins idea that not sciences comment was a townslip. I can see that happening somewhat, but we talked about the game specific rules for a good portion of the first dp. I don't know how NS plays, but it could be just a way for him to try to be funny and make himself look town simultaneously. Obviously, the mafia members would know about the day talk aspect, so its not too far of a stretch to imagine them making a comment like that. I know this is kinda WIFOM-y, but its really not if you think about it

This strikes me as another interaction that makes me likely town.
I will admit that Goodfather didn't buddy up to Bert as much as my posts implied he did

[Nachomamma8]

muffin and I can just both promise not tokill you if one of us are scum

[Nachomamma8]

I could pretend to be drunk if you want Nacho

yes please
whatever it takes to show me your spark

BERT GUYETT NACHO ARONIS
TOWNBLOCK 2.0

What was the spark?

It was giving him the benefit of the doubt and pep talking him into doing town shit.
What sold it for me was his luck of the Irish mylo vote on scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: No Lynch

Please don't let it random lynch. Please.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho

i want you to answer honestly

why didn't you kill anyone last night?

Because I don't have a kill!

[Nachomamma8]

has nacho even been on MS since the end of yesterday?

Yep!

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: zMuffinMan

[Nachomamma8]

Selling points for Nacho on Muffin-scum:

Muffin refusing to defend Notscience his townread yesterday because "if he won't defend himself we deserve to lose".
Goodfather being aware of one scum in the neighborhood but somehow not being aware of what a neighborhood is.
Useless tunnels all game (Bert, Selkies, Nacho: compare Muffin interactions here with Muffin interactions with me in 167: push push
push, but no actual push to lynch until I made it a me versus him decision).
Toniest thing he's managed to do this game is be angry at Bert, which actually isn't very town at all!

[Nachomamma8]

What are your best selling points, muff?

[Nachomamma8]

For me scum, I know you can bullshit about you being town all day but I'm interested for what you'll bullshit about me

[Nachomamma8]

all game, it felt like you were attempting to poorly imitate some idea of your town self that you seem to think other people have.

So to be clear: the reason you think I'm being so erratic and so absolutely batshit this game is because you think I was trying to imitate my town meta? And you think that the way I was choosing to beat ffery, and am so confident in beating ffery (who I always worry about, and you know this) by bringing her to LyLo, is by not giving a shit about forming any valid thought processes/any trajectory whatsoever?

[Nachomamma8]

instead, i think you're hedging your bets and going after me because you can't really go after anyone else without people realising you're obvscum

Why can't I go after Guyett? If scum, I faked a fine amount of paranoia on him earlier and then stopped pushing him for pretty much no reason.
Also, "not reanalyzing" is an absolutely bullshit reason. "Not reanalyzing" is a reason that amounts to "you're still pushing me as scum, you would've realized I'm town by now".

I also think "you would have been analyzing more now" is additionally a pretty obviously bullshit reason for some pretty obvious reasons.

[Nachomamma8]

bert read was pretty bizarre. But, bert was never lynchable imo, so it's kind of a strange read for scum-zmuffin to have. I think. I dunno. Something to review.

I don't think pushing someone who is unlynchable is a bad move for scum-Muffin at all. I don't think he has to worry very much about getting mislynches when the majority of his team wasn't coming under fire early game.

[Nachomamma8]

but then there are a lot of people in this game that nacho probably didn't want in lylo (and i'm guessing bert, claimed doc and claimed en-vig are among that list)

Cabd, Selkies, you.
I'm not afraid of Bert as scum, sorry! (which you know from empire-game)

[Nachomamma8]

And to expand on that, I know Bert gets nervous in LyLo. I know he gets less active, I know he tends to get suicidal, he tends to do things a little crazy in LyLo, and would probably be much more open to the "Bert, just trust me" types of arguments. If I were to bring Selkies to LyLo, I'd probably be aiming for the mislynch, and that would have been pretty incredibly easily accomplished with Bert-Guyett-Selkies-Nacho, so whoops guess I found another scenario I could have created for myself.

[Nachomamma8]

because it being a 3-town neighbourhood perfectly explains the otherwise severe lack of town power in this game if nati is of the same opinion as i am about an all-town neighbourhood (that, hidden from scum, it can not only catch them by surprise, but be a pretty strong force - and, well, had aronis stepped up to the plate, we could have basically been a masonry since idiotking and i were pretty sure on each other)

This argument is basically the worst argument that I've seen in a while.
I've never seen a neighborhood become a masonry any more than people become a masonry through in thread interactions. Saying "oh, three town neighbors justifies us not having shit for power!" is one of the worst arguments that you've brought forward so far: please don't talk about it again, please don't imply you're talking about this again, please don't mention this argument ever ever again. I think a majority of what you've brought forward is okay (not horrible, not great) but this is an argument far beneath your skill level and please don't ruin my fun by bringing up shit arguments like this one that are so bad and so obviously wrong that they aren't even fun to refute.

[Nachomamma8]

if you were thinking rationally, you'd realise the first point is an opinion that's alignment-indepedent - if i were actually scum, there'd be no reason for me to make up something like that if i wouldn't also think it as town

This is a townread that everyone sort of things is town (except for you). This means that the entire game is won or lost based on pretty much one lynch (notscience). You show you clearly care about the game, based on how adamantly you defended yourself yesterday and how much effort you put into the game then, but you never for a moment lifted one finger in order to defend notscience, your townread, and you never once expressed doubt about him like you thought he was scum. As scum, you know defending him will be sort of futile, and can be used as ammunition against you for trying to end the game early, so you sitting there not defending him despite him being a townread is probably the best solution: switching to scumreading him doesn't offer you any cred.

The only problem with you sitting there not defending him is that defending him was so crucial to that point of the game: it is alignment dependent when your defense of him is the difference between game ends and game continues as one alignment, while your defense of him doesn't matter at all as the other.

[Nachomamma8]

the second point seems blatantly wrong, and ignores the fact that goodfather was aware enough of what a neighbourhood was to ask if one of us was a neighbouriser

goodfather apparently didn't know what a neighborhood was at first
he also apparently knew of standard 'scum assumptions of one scum in the neighborhood
yet thought maybe there was a neighborizer? (if he looked it up on the wiki, how did he not notice it was a nightly thing? how did he get to neighborizer anything?)

all of his confusion about the neighborhood seems like bullshit because he knows some things, doesn't know some others. this suggests to me that he is faking being unaware of neighborhoods, which he wouldn't do unless there was scum in the neighborhoods, which leaves our favorite man (the muffin muffin man) as scum. so i didn't ignore the neighborizer fact: it's part of the argument!

[Nachomamma8]

like how you went from scum-reading goodfather at the beginning of D2 to town-reading him based on... nothing? or something?

didn't i have a point of setup spec stating that I thought town's power was shit and as a result SSK-Cabd-Goodfather were probably all town?
i guess you probably would've seen that if you were analyzing things and actually reading my ISO, amirite

[Nachomamma8]

So to be clear: the reason you think I'm being so erratic and so absolutely batshit this game is because you think I was trying to imitate my town meta?

i think you're trying to imitate some idea of your town meta that you have, yes. i think you think that "erratic play" is something that you'd do as "troll mode town" but there are off notes that don't look town, which is why i think it's a poor imitation

You've never even attempted to explain the differences, have you?

[Nachomamma8]

And you think that the way I was choosing to beat ffery, and am so confident in beating ffery (who I always worry about, and you know this) by bringing her to LyLo, is by not giving a shit about forming any valid thought processes/any trajectory whatsoever?

you know ffery is a meta-heavy player, though. if she's never seen play like this come from scum-you, yes, i think you thought this was a valid strategy - the lack of cohesive thoughts means there's nothing to peg you on because you aren't giving any sort of read progression, any reasons for your reads, or reasons for how they change, etc etc - it's the same thing i've considered doing in a game (and likely will do in a game at some point) as scum because it's something so off from how i normally play scum (but i need to draw scum in the right player list for it to work)

Do you think a player list where ffery is considered scummy and thus doesn't have the sway she normally has + a lot of people are unfamiliar with my play is the right player list? I don't.

[Nachomamma8]

also while i'm at it, you being scum with a nurse in this game means you knew it was likely town had a doc, which explains why you weren't shooting obvious targets this game, instead going after people who were unlikely to be protected

I always assume protective roles. I don't expect you to know that, so w/e.

[Nachomamma8]

i also wasn't suggesting it must be the case, but from a setup spec point of view, it is the only thing that makes sense. and i already explained why the counter to that (2-town-1-scum) in a normal game is less sensible

Yeah, but your reasoning there is still pretty shot.
Maybe I haven't seen a neighborhood played right, but I still haven't seen the masonry neighborhood that you speak of: you bring up Cash Cabd, but that was ffery and I who both had pretty high levels of mutual readability at that point AND hydra'ed together and were pretty intimate with each other's thought processes: that's not the kind of thing you assume will happen with two random people.

[Nachomamma8]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p5802447]post 3993[/url], zMuffinMan"][quote="nacho"]You show you clearly care about the game, based on how adamantly you defended yourself yesterday and how much effort you put into the game then, but you never for a moment lifted one finger in order to defend notscience, your townread, and you never once expressed doubt about him like you thought he was scum. As scum, you know defending him will be sort of futile, and can be used as ammunition against you for trying to end the game early, so you sitting there not defending him despite him being a townread is probably the best solution: switching to scumreading him doesn't offer you any cred.[/quote]
first, the idea that i must defend my town-reads to the death is absolutely stupid; i only defend people to the death if i'm 99.999% sure i'm right about them being town, and even then, if they don't give enough of a shit about the game to defend themselves, i generally don't go out of my way to do this (i'm pretty sure if i sift through my town games i can find similar examples of this thought process in action if you don't believe it). though saying i didn't defend him is a load of shit, given i did put forth arguments for why i thought he could be town

second, i'm never so attached to a scum buddy that i think i need to defend them like that - i would never have brought up the thing i thought was a town slip in the first place as scum with notscience, because i wouldn't have wanted to be forced into a situation where i had to defend a buddy, and i wouldn't have bothered defending a buddy who was practically dead in the water. it's simply not how i play scum. for any other person, you might have a valid argument, but you know this isn't how i play scum. unless your argument here is LOLWIFOM you'd do it because you wouldn't do it, in which case you're just stretching now to find shit that suits your predetermined read
[/quote]
I would personally be happy with you linking the games you have in mind, sure.

As for defending them like that - defending him like what? You said you thought he scum slipped, and then you stopped defending him.i know I might be crazy for thinking this, but in that particular scenario you had absolutely no need to defend him (you didn't have to and you didn't): I figure it was something you picked up on and decided to bring up because who the hell doesn't bring up their partner's townslip when it's chilling in thread.

[Nachomamma8]

like, seriously, if you're going to claim that goodfather's stuff re: neighbourhood is faked and therefore he was faking it, quote him

You quoted him for me.

He said "my understanding of neighborhoods is that one of you are scum". This doesn't assume neighborizer.
Then, he says "are one of you a neighborizer?". This doesn't make sense considering it wasn't yet night 3.
The inconsistencies are so blatant they sort of obviously scream bullshit: if he was trying to spread paranoia, why not just push the one scum in the neighborhood line and leave it at that?

[Nachomamma8]

and I'm saying that the way a neighborhood is started/originates has a huge impact on whether mutual town reads can be established

it really doesn't, though

as long as you can get past the paranoia of "omg 3-man neighbourhood, must be 1 scum in it" and form reads in it while discussing the game, it's really no different to someone being a neighbouriser and neighbourising their town reads (assuming it really is an all-town neighbourhood). in both scenarios, there's possibly scum, and in both scenarios, no one can be sure of the other players' alignments, but they can still be a powerful force

key thing i was asking about here is whether you know of nati's opinion on this - i don't care to delve into theory any further

"forming townreads on random people is the same as neighborizing townreads"
No, Muffin.
No.

[Nachomamma8]

Would scum Nacho have kept me alive after this yesterday?

VOTE: nacho

I wouldn't have.
You'll stay alive if we no lynch again as well.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho should be after ik on that vc.
Ik pushes aronis to l-1
Ross gives out that the vote wasnt announced as l-1
Nacho naked votes aronis to push him to l-1 without announcing it.
to me this looks like a coordinated attempt to get aronis lynched organised from scum day chat.

I can't remember the last time I've announced an L-1.

[Nachomamma8]

Would scum Nacho have kept me alive after this yesterday?

from a practical standpoint, there is little difference between keeping you alive with 4 alive, 3 to lynch and killing you to make it 3 alive, 2 to lynch - except that the former doesn't incriminate him in any way (which is probably something he'd be wary of after 169, as much as he suggests he could talk it off)

that is assuming it was a conscious choice and not just a failure to submit an action (which is entirely possible given nacho's recent activity issues)

Either way, I have to convince Selkies to trust me yet again as scum, except this time in a LyLo situation. Do you think that I want to convince them for a moment and just a moment? Or do you think I want to have her stuck solidly in my town camp and then convince Guyett (whose scum suspects yesterday were Selkies and I and not you) to hammer you as well?

There's only one decision scum-Nacho makes in this situation.

[Nachomamma8]

I find it a bit odd that despite being so sure that nacho is scum you haven't voted for him...

He's not voting me because he wants to troll hammer me.

[Nachomamma8]

What game are you comparing this with?

[Nachomamma8]

My argument was not "he didn't know what a neighborhood was" originally. It was that he pretended he didn't know what one was, which he has no reason to fake unless there was scum in the neighborhood. Remember?

[Nachomamma8]

I think I probably would have had doubts on you by now if it wasn't for that, tbh.

[Nachomamma8]

That's not the best comparison: I was a cop and I was obviously going to be extraordinarily aggressive.

[Nachomamma8]

I really wish there was a big enough heart to express my joy

[Nachomamma8]

I'm town!

[Nachomamma8]

And very hungover, but still very much town.