Tales of You (Endgame)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It's ok for you to put your own reads ahead of theirs. but heaven forbid I think for myself.

Mastin you're a ball of manipulation, contradiction and hypocrisy.

I'm done talking to you for a while.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It is. He's trying to ride what he thinks is a momentum change. It won't go far.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

she :/ sorry.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Tammy: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Rolestopper

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think there are a few players in this game who can attest to the fact that ffery-head doesn't always keep the diplomat hat firmly in place.

As far as our vote, there's no hurry. At the very least we won't be voting before we've synched about the last 24 hours or so worth of posts.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@Stalin
So you would townread me on one synchronized readlist?

-L

Not would. Did.

Though I'd retract it in a heartbeat if I saw something later I didn't like.

I haven't. And at this point I doubt I will.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@Stalin
So you would townread me on one synchronized readlist?

-L

Not would. Did.

Though I'd retract it in a heartbeat if I saw something later I didn't like.

I haven't. And at this point I doubt I will.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

At the end of the day yesterday, I had nothing but shades of town and PoE starting with my "Maybe Town" group, including the line below which I said I was willing to lynch. I could have called that group scumreads, but they weren't and I didn't. And won't in any game while I don't have a strong scum sense from any players.

That is transparency. Claiming an assurance I don't feel is not transparent.


Beli had his Mastin scum read but didn't want to push it if I didn't also think Mastin's scum. I voted Mastin prior to Nati's Song trust card appeal.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ps i've seen you be transparent town several times before

this shit ain't it

Oh but it is. It's a very clear view into confusion. And the confusion's center was to some extent still is disagreeing with people first on the fox&hound read and then later on the RBD read. I can't see the gamestate you're seeing, that would lead you to conclude RBD is scum. And that led directly to where I had you in my reads list prior to late day 1.

I still don't see the gamestate that leads you to that read, but I'm convinced you're town now.

To me, this game strongly reminds me of the Deaths Diner game in that there was stuff going on in the town (the neighborhood) that was impacting people's reads and stances, but it was like an iceberg. The reasons for those stances weren't visible to me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I still don't trust AP though I've come around to the original CF inno being an intentional gambit.

Mastin has totally, totally wiped out my townsense from early day 1. I'm not going to wall at him but some of his statements about my town game are simply false and you would know that as well as anyone. My ongoing reaction to being scumread in death's diner was not in the least calm. I was pretty contemptuous and never really trusted the game instincts of players I eventually townread after all the hoorah about me being scum on day 1 and 2, as well as the day 2 nati lynch.

I'm kinda fighting that tendency to dismiss players who misread me now because I know you usually have good reads. You and pie both thinking Mastin is scum meant that I came into day 2 willing to vote her.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'll be very surprised if Beli disagrees with that suggestion.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You can take me back to early game. What early-game posts read as strong reasons to read Red Gyarados as town? 3-5 would suffice.

Their early ISO is littered with good examples of what I look for these days.

Yes, it does.

My goal this game is to figure out which of

(nachobork, GIF, Tammydra, 3dicehawk, you two, beliffery, natimuffin) drew town role pms.

So by answering that simple question you could in fact help me solve the game that much earlier.

Or we can pretend I don't know it's mastin because if SSK ever made a post that long I think ms would freeze over, so there's that.

I'm also a bit too chickenshit to vote Nati.

pedit- I want the reference too. I want to sort Tammy as fast as possible.

The earlier posts that notsci made had the tone he hits as town, but this post basically outlines his town approach - townhunt, townbloc, PoE, sheep town reads.

For comparison, have a look at this scum game iso: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Note his reaction to me, note his blatant buddying of bert - not the light-sparring/light-buddying interaction he did in this game but straight up "you're my in-thread mason and I'm going to buddy the shit out of you". The difference is confidence. Not confidence in himself. Confidence in other players being town. He doesn't have it here and the early game he's clearly watching and weighing people. He's coming to quick decisions, but the weighing process is there.

I've also obvtown'd like 5 times before post 30, you're all welcome.

Reach outs may commence at your earliest convenience.

He's not bludgeoning specific people about his towniness here. Compare this to the in-thread-mason schtick in the game I linked above.

Can you rephrase the first question?

I thought it looks pretty atypical of you and Nati in games together. I have to go check the way you two interacted early in street racers, but the fact you keyed in on him felt good (yes, I realize scum-you would do the same)

pedit-

PLAY ALONG WITH IT AND IF THEY RECANT THEN WE LYNCH THEM FOR LYING

LAL works in cabd games right

His process for figuring out SSK and Nati here is much more nuanced than any town read he articulated in the early days of the game I linked.

This is also quite clear elitism.

Hate to break it to you, here's another post.

I tend to key in on people I've really clicked when working with them as town before, and people I'm terrified of misreading again (I should probably add BRO/Desp in for the second category) which is why I keyed in on those.

pedit-

So are you going to be nsposting all game

This is in much the same vein as the first post I quoted, and gives me townvibes for the same reason.

hi guys

this post is town.

Really? I coulda sworn that was a universally accepted scum-claim. Someone even wrote a thesis on it.

(nachobork, GIF, Tammydra, 3dicehawk, you two, beliffery, natimuffin)

GiF isn't a hydra though. Why does he get to join the club?

I'm also a bit too chickenshit to vote Nati.

If you ever need to vote somebody, let me know. I'll make the vote for you.

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

Why did we not join this wagon?

No idea what that means. I'm going to assume that means you think they're town. I agree.

Mellifluous: pleasant to hear

pretty sure this is notscience.

You'll know if it's not him. I'm not signing my posts because it

will

be that obvious.

I refuse to believe those are SSK posts.

I refuse to believe those dull and flat posts are Mastin's. If they are, we should have wagoned him by now.

Like, can you really believe those posts are Mastin's? Really? I can't. If they are, then FOR SHAME MASTIN! FOR SHAME!

but the Pokedex!!!!!

You only want us cuz we're shiny!

I should probably add BRO/Desp in for the second category

I actually want them sorted rather soon. Can we bump them up a bit higher?

THIS GAME SEEMS FLAVOR INTENSIVE THOUGH GG NO RE

Really? The flavor I've seen thus far seems rather pointless to me (and almost entirely dependent on specific roles).

Like, I don't see how any of the flavor we've received thus far is going to help me find scum.

VOTE: Clyton

VOTE: Clyton

That's Nati's schtick. We don't need two egotistical self-voters in the same game.

What from post 20 made you think MastinSSK is town?

My other head is a Mastin fanboy. Please ignore.

This was a Brian post. What I was looking for here was a sense of comfortable confidence which I've come to associate with his town entrance into games as his play has developed. It's almost always there when he's town. I was also looking for what sorts of posts he would pick to comment on in the early game - whose noses he'll tweak.

Dude

I am so hype

Tammy and I both drew town PMs and have obvtown'd hardcore before page 6

ITS SO GREAT

I like ffery so far too.

This notsci post and declaration of town-tammy had good trajectory. He tested a little and gave her time to interact with him and others. The read came at a good time in terms of his presence in the game thread, too. It didn't have the forced feel that I thought his trajectory on bert in the game I linked had.

Hi Bork

I'm going to

sheep tammy's read on you two

figure out what you two are and if you're town your job is to make sure I don't let any DBKs in okay

Acknowledgement of a bad read in an early game and a reach out to someone he'd want in his townbloc if he winds up trusting them.

Hi Tammy!

You seemed to have sneezed or something at the end of giving your read on me- you added something after town.

I don't get where mastin's coming from at all regarding you being scum.

@F-16, While yes the interactions are

technically

fakeable, they felt genuine to me. I just felt like the conversation with me early came from a natural place.

I'm not sure I can get this across adequately. there's a lighter touch and more playfulness in his interactions when he's town. A similar interaction when he's scum comes off much heavier and not as playful.

Also @wheover asked me about ffery-

It sounds different. Like, the hatred of the role pm seeps into her being.

He might post something like this as scum. That's not why I pulled this particular post. I just think it's one of the better descriptions of my scum game that I've seen on MS. I've seen more technical descriptions, but this gets to the heart of what I have to change in my scum game in order to improve.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I can squint and make out a cupcake/mastinssk team, maybe. I dunno.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Most of our hydra discussion currently revolves around figuring out what we think about AP's claim, but I don't think we're going to reach any sort of clarity. His claim could be completely factual in its final form and not say a thing about his alignment, aside from BRO's point about his original claimed target. As a gambit, it's not alignment indicative.

For me, it comes down to my thoughts about how many layers deep his scum play could go. Those thoughts are unsettled.

CF, what do you mean by "moving forward"?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So MastinSSK's vote thing where their vote doesn't count on a leading wagon.

We haven't talked about it since mid day 1 iirc. How does it fit in as a scum role attribute in a game this size with 4 scum?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

We would have claimed if the wagon went our direction.

I'm not willing to full claim today. I will say that CF should have received a message last night. I don't think he'd have been told who sent it.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You picked an interesting point at which to leave off your quotestriping.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Orcinus needs to show up and do something.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Titan based on your neighborhood stuff do you have an opinion about Clyton?

Clyton, what are your thoughts?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Cabd

(and everyone), just to let you know, I have finals and projects due during the first couple of weeks of April (the last one is on the 13th), so I

might

be more active after that. But my activity will be decreased before that although I'll still check in and keep up with the thread and I may exceed the prod limit. FT's finals end on the fifth and he said he would be massively active after that since apparently he has more free time then.

Tammy

, I saw your post about your reads and I understand where you are coming from with regards to BRO because his play here

is

different from Wicked and his posts in the dead thread match up with the philosophy you described (caring more about getting lynched as scum). There are a few things I've witnessed in the neighborhood though and how they played out in the thread that made me certain enough to bank the game on this read with a certainty that I rarely, rarely have. I'll outline it for you in another wall so we can see eye to eye on it and get on the same page. I want all four of us (you, me, Desp-BRO, PieGIF to be on the same page about the four of us). Let me present my read and tell me if you are convinced or show me where you think I'm wrong.

So you have a towntowntown group.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Two of their members died.

Something our groups share.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus how caught up are you?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Cabd

(and everyone), just to let you know, I have finals and projects due during the first couple of weeks of April (the last one is on the 13th), so I

might

be more active after that. But my activity will be decreased before that although I'll still check in and keep up with the thread and I may exceed the prod limit. FT's finals end on the fifth and he said he would be massively active after that since apparently he has more free time then.

Tammy

, I saw your post about your reads and I understand where you are coming from with regards to BRO because his play here

is

different from Wicked and his posts in the dead thread match up with the philosophy you described (caring more about getting lynched as scum). There are a few things I've witnessed in the neighborhood though and how they played out in the thread that made me certain enough to bank the game on this read with a certainty that I rarely, rarely have. I'll outline it for you in another wall so we can see eye to eye on it and get on the same page. I want all four of us (you, me, Desp-BRO, PieGIF to be on the same page about the four of us). Let me present my read and tell me if you are convinced or show me where you think I'm wrong.

So you have a towntowntown group.

What makes you say that?

I am not "townblocing" in the sense of formally separating players into those that I will work with and those that I won't. I am trying to bridge a communication gap between two players that I am 99% certain are town and it is based on the certainty of my townreads there.

Maybe it's an artifact of where your focus currently is, but I feel like there's a whole game going on here, not just those 3 players.

I'm trying to move up a few thousand feet in terms of how I'm viewing the game, because I'm kinda tired of talking to the same people with the same disagreements and agreements constantly.

From my perspective, it's not moving the game forward. And I don't think anything is going to seriously move the game forward until more players are really engaged today.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Maybe it's an artifact of where your focus currently is, but I feel like there's a whole game going on here, not just those 3 players.

I'm trying to move up a few thousand feet in terms of how I'm viewing the game, because I'm kinda tired of talking to the same people with the same disagreements and agreements constantly.

From my perspective, it's not moving the game forward. And I don't think anything is going to seriously move the game forward until more players are really engaged today.

Of course there is a whole game going on and I didn't direct my wall at you so I have no idea why you would be tired of talking about it. I particularly don't like posts like these where you discourage analysis or look down upon town players working with each other.

I have been moving the game forward by collaborating with townreads and making sure we lynch one of Mastin/AP today. I really don't want this to turn into yet another noisy day where Mastin and AP make a spectacle of themselves and we lynch another lurker. My objective is to make sure we drive one of their lynches through today and I need you on my side if you are town.

I'm on town's side. And I obviously think that means we're on the same side.

I'm not trying to discourage analysis at all, and in fact your criticisms (and tammy's) on day 1 about my typical play were noted and internalized. How that manifests in my in-thread behavior, I don't know yet. I probably won't know what I'm actually doing differently as opposed to what I'm thinking until I get feedback about it in games.

Whoever we vote today aside, there are other reads to solidify today. I guess what's frustrating me is that you're talking about 3 players I think are town. Of the three, the only one I have even the slightest niggle about at the moment is Titan and it's a very small niggle that I feel pretty sure comes down to playstyle/philosophy.

The bit about the same disagreements over and over is a general whine not directed at you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

(Helpful hint about me. A scum-me doesn't really tick people off. A scum me is nice. Friendly. Likes to be your ally and buddy-buddy. My play this game...isn't that. Not even remotely.)

I haven't meta'd you in a while, but I'm pretty sure this is patently false. It depends entirely on who you choose to buddy. I recall that scum-you is obnoxious to people you think you can lynch. Adding this to my list of stuff to research.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

polite and obnoxious aren't mutually exclusive.

Maybe you have a blind spot about how your posts are taken at times.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think your weakness is that you don't do it as theater in the round.

We'll see.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

Please tell me this isn't real

I forget who suggested it. I've rolled it around in my head a few times. I dunno. I don't think so. The puzzle pieces aren't coming together very easily, though.

I think the huge divergence in RBD reads indicates two very different fragments of town in this game, with two strongly divergent ideas about what is going on.

Talk to me about these fragments of town with strongly divergent ideas. Obviously, at a surface level, it is apparent to anyone that reads the thread but I am hoping that you could elaborate in depth on these ideas.

What do you think is going on in the game and why do you think these divergent ideas developed. Do they say anything about the affiliation of the people who have these ideas? Where do you currently stand? Have your thoughts been updated since the last time you posted your list of reads?

You ask a lot of questions and I don't feel like thinking deep thoughts at the moment. I'll try to answer this tomorrow morning.

fery i'm caught up

What are you thinking?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Orcinus I'm awake for maybe another half hour. Do you want to discuss the game?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

Please tell me this isn't real

I forget who suggested it. I've rolled it around in my head a few times. I dunno. I don't think so. The puzzle pieces aren't coming together very easily, though.

I think the huge divergence in RBD reads indicates two very different fragments of town in this game, with two strongly divergent ideas about what is going on.

Talk to me about these fragments of town with strongly divergent ideas. Obviously, at a surface level, it is apparent to anyone that reads the thread but I am hoping that you could elaborate in depth on these ideas.

What do you think is going on in the game and why do you think these divergent ideas developed.

I wish I knew what's going on in this game. I think a big enough chunk of the game is happening in your neighborhood and that the game thread itself doesn't contain some of the discussion that would help in developing reads and understanding stances. If you look at who thought Rancid was scum and who thought he was town, although the lines aren't clean, there is a neighborhood/not-neighborhood trend.

Do they say anything about the affiliation of the people who have these ideas? Where do you currently stand? Have your thoughts been updated since the last time you posted your list of reads?

Beli suggested a couple days ago in our hydra convo that the game isn't going anywhere because all the focus is on AP/Mastin today (and to a fair extent day 1 as well). I'm trying to widen my focus and talk to other players about things other than AP/Mastin, but Mastin doesn't make that easy.

As far as our stance, we don't want to vote either of them at the moment. When Mastin was going after me earlier I thought it was a scum-motivated push because her reasons are all wisps and cobwebs and her stated meta understanding of my play is strangely shallow. Like not understanding how much of my play in Death's Diner was unfortunately anger-based during day 1 and beyond, and how a town player strongly pushing a wrong and worse - unstated meta case so I couldn't correct it or even understand where the wrongness originated - wound up dead at my earliest convenience - night 2.

The other thing I don't like about Mastin is the level of noise she's at times adding to the game. Part of my scumhunting involves tone and timing. The timing aspects of stance verbalizations and changes are getting swallowed up in the noise.

Anyway. That's anti-town IMO. But I'm not certain it's scummy. I don't trust her view of the game because I know she's wrong in her read of me and I suspect she may be wrong about other players.

I don't trust your view of the game because I feel like I'm seeing too much surface and not enough of the evolution of your thoughts, and I attribute that to your neighborhood. I can't describe it really any better than that, and the level of distrust is less because I at least agree with you on some things, and the main thing we disagree on may not be revealed during the game, so who knows which of us is right about Natimuffin.

Bork has unsettled me for some of the same reasons. His posts have yelled I'm town on one level, but the probing, flashes of paranoia, and stance-taking that I associate with his town game aren't happening very much. And I assume that's because they're happening in the neighborhood.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I generally love what neighborhoods do to games, but this game I've been hesitant to ask to have my potential neighborhood activated.

Though Orci if you were from the same game as me, I'd consider it. I'm pretty sure you're not.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

No, I'm not following into the pattern of distrusting people whose reads disagree with mine.

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

My stances right now are clearly fucked until I figure out Mastin. Part of me just wants her gone and flipped so that I can course adjust or carry on. But that wish goes against my entire approach to mafia and I hate that I'm thinking that way in this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

(Said town player you vigged, who wasn't scumreading you at the time of their death and made reach-outs to you, by the way. Like I said, I read the game.)

I made the reach-outs IIRC. Repeatedly.

You read the game, but you took the wrong lessons away from it, apparently.

That or you're intentionally trying to twist my meta. And your coming back and displaying more understanding of that game weights my thoughts in that direction. :/

Okay, who am I wrong about? Who am I right about? I'm not going to be utterly incompetent and be wrong about everything, nor a scumhunting god right about everything.

your scumreads are apparently Nacho/orcinus/me/AP. Which means that you think Nacho bussed orcinus with the intention of "forcing" him to governate, and that you think scum-Orcinus put me into a 1v1 with a near-universal null read. Not any hypothetical scum. Me.

AP as scum at this point is almost an afterthought from what I can tell.

p-edit that looks like a reads update but I'm going to go ahead and post this anyway.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
4 orcinus_theoriginal
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
15 PeregrineV

*grumble, grumble*
The name of the six change, that I have six does not. Realized that I eliminated Red Gyarados a bit hastily. I have reasons for thinking they're town and reasons for thinking they might be scum, thus their presence. Still trying to figure it out, but that might be a bit more spam than needed, 'specially since working on the Ballad of Tales will help with this and people responding to things I've said can probably already help on that front.

I might be getting distracted by the shiney in eliminating Fox/Hound here and having my vote on Nacho (and if so, zMuff/Nati, I do apologize), but this is something that I need to pursue right here and now to figure out. It can't wait.

If you're town then two of those reads are absolutely bad. Two others are iffy.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery, I found your response to my last wall lacking in depth. You say you want to figure out the game. Why aren't you doing so? I asked you what about my stances weren't clear but you didn't point to any specifics and it is coming off like you are trying to dismiss my pushes rather than understand them due to the lack of follow up. I also wanted to know what your issues with the game are right now and how you intend to resolve them. In particular, I asked how they make sense with your stance on Rancid. Your short response feels like brushing aside my questions and a large part of my wall rather than addressing them. Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

I'm not done responding because I'm not done cogitating.

I guess I feel like my confusion is more obvious than it actually is.

My Nachobork read is pretty stale. Was looking forward to talking with bork about his thoughts on the game state. Now I guess as far as where kagura currently stands it's wait for Nacho or depend on neighbors to talk about where he and bork were or what Nacho is currently thinking, and whether they seemed to be on the same page.

I have no idea if any putative neighborhood would help me in figuring things out or not.

What are your thoughts about Mastin's recent posts?

Beli and I haven't talked much about the game since early weekend. I'll let him know you'd like to talk with him.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think this will clarify things a bit with regard to 4114 and 4118.

Spoiler:

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

also you are seriously overrating how influential the neighborhood is and how much content it's robbing from the actual game thread. the vast majority of f-16's posting there has made its way here, either verbatim or spread throughout several posts.

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

I don't think that's what she's saying. She's saying she doubts Mastin's understanding of the game because he's misreading her, and though it can take you in the wrong direction it's a pretty natural stance to have. It's a similar way she viewed taking seriously Nacho's reads when Nacho tried to put together a scum team with greyice on it in Tales of the Abyss when she had role information that pointed to GI town.

I don't know if the level of disagreement between both of you guys is because of a massive playstyle clash. I think you both make good points but it feels like there is a communication breakdown.

I think what Desp was saying was that Ffery's overall reads are unclear. He's said this before and elaborated in the neighborhood about how the way she organizes her reads don't make any sense. He has a valid point.

I also think Tammy's analogy about Nacho makes sense that it can sometimes be hard to take someone seriously if they are scumreading you and basing their other reads off of it which might lead that player to think that their entire understanding of the game is warped. I think Tammy is referring more to people that base their reads associatively assuming that their scumread is scum and Desp is referring more to how discounting someone's reads just because they have one read wrong is dumb. I think he is talking about it in absolute scumreads as opposed to associative ones.

Hopefully, that makes sense? I wish you'd kiss and make up (unless this is actually helping with getting reads in which case never mind this post).

Titan's post is a better description of where I'm coming from.

I don't understand why my post would be some kind of hellacious point of contention between them, whether they agree with each other or not.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

I'm here. Perhaps a bit less "here" this week and next than I have been due to work issues, but if you've got any questions, I'm still checking this thread twice a day.

-B

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hah! I still don't have any real scumreads except Mastin.

Nacho's still slipping into the null category, but more or less, yeah.

My biggest concern right now is "who is the snake in the grass in my strong town reads?" but (as Ffery mentioned earlier) it's kind of hard to work that out with all of the Mastin/AP cockwaving going on and bugger all else and I've got a serious case of wtfdoidoitis. (Not blaming that on the noise this game, though, that's all me. I seem to go through it for at least a while in every Large I play in.)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

This post is terrifying inside my head.

Holy shit.

Like, I can't even.

Anyone who calls F-16 town is either scum or in my "ignore this" book for the rest of the game.

Is this a revelation?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hah! I still don't have any real scumreads except Mastin.

Nacho's still slipping into the null category, but more or less, yeah.

My biggest concern right now is "who is the snake in the grass in my strong town reads?" but (as Ffery mentioned earlier) it's kind of hard to work that out with all of the Mastin/AP cockwaving going on and bugger all else and I've got a serious case of wtfdoidoitis. (Not blaming that on the noise this game, though, that's all me. I seem to go through it for at least a while in every Large I play in.)

Okay. You guys's read on Mastin was something you disagreed with for a large part of D1 and D2. Are you making any progress in your discussion?

Who are the people that you would be willing to lynch come deadline? This is more so we don't have crazy flashwagons the day of the deadline.

I feel like a bomb just went off in the middle of the dinner table and you're passing the gravy here.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Are you referring to Mastin's series of 100 walls as the metaphorical bomb here?

I'm referring to BRO's 4169

I'm terrible at detecting sarcasm in text. Was that sarcasm?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Are you referring to Mastin's series of 100 walls as the metaphorical bomb here?

I'm referring to BRO's 4169

I'm terrible at detecting sarcasm in text. Was that sarcasm?

Pretty sure it is a typo. If not, then BRO and I have a lot of talking to do.

Reading that post was like experiencing an instantaneous axial tilt, like every pattern in the sky jerked into incomprehensibility.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hah! I still don't have any real scumreads except Mastin.
Nacho's still slipping into the null category, but more or less, yeah.

My biggest concern right now is "who is the snake in the grass in my strong town reads?" but (as Ffery mentioned earlier) it's kind of hard to work that out with all of the Mastin/AP cockwaving going on and bugger all else and I've got a serious case of wtfdoidoitis. (Not blaming that on the noise this game, though, that's all me. I seem to go through it for at least a while in every Large I play in.)

Okay. You guys's read on Mastin was something you disagreed with for a large part of D1 and D2. Are you making any progress in your discussion?

Who are the people that you would be willing to lynch come deadline? This is more so we don't have crazy flashwagons the day of the deadline.

I feel like a bomb just went off in the middle of the dinner table and you're passing the gravy here.

I also can't help but note the lack of answering going on, here. They're pursuing something that is an obvious dead-end (of course BRO meant F-16 is town), and be it through coincidence or design (depending on alignment), that stalls the answering of F-16's questions. (I lean towards scum.)

He was talking to Beli, not me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Reading that post was like experiencing an instantaneous axial tilt, like every pattern in the sky jerked into incomprehensibility.

So now that you're not distracted by DesBRO, you can answer F-16's questions with your full gaze.

Your opportunistic sticking of oars in is noted.

Is it a perverse pleasure of some sort to post crap like this at me every time I've tried to do a reset and look for town reasoning in your posts?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hah! I still don't have any real scumreads except Mastin.

Nacho's still slipping into the null category, but more or less, yeah.

My biggest concern right now is "who is the snake in the grass in my strong town reads?" but (as Ffery mentioned earlier) it's kind of hard to work that out with all of the Mastin/AP cockwaving going on and bugger all else and I've got a serious case of wtfdoidoitis. (Not blaming that on the noise this game, though, that's all me. I seem to go through it for at least a while in every Large I play in.)

Okay. You guys's read on Mastin was something you disagreed with for a large part of D1 and D2. Are you making any progress in your discussion?

Who are the people that you would be willing to lynch come deadline? This is more so we don't have crazy flashwagons the day of the deadline.

So do you want our consolidated thoughts here? I thought you were either asking for Beli's thoughts, or you were asking us about our consensus here.

For myself, I'm willing to lynch Mastin come deadline. Not so much AP based on BRO's take, though I have reservations about AP and his predecessors.

Do you have anything you can share about where bork and nacho have been leaning, what their reads are, etc?

I feel like that slot just got a lot more murky as far as what their thoughts are. I think I posted a little about this earlier.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Then take your own goddamn advice about confbias.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I also commented on this earlier, yet you didn't comment on my thoughts, there. Why not?

because I want nothing to do with you this game day. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to interact with you at all.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

uh???

all i want is one name, ffery. one scumread.

You just got one.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

also in case it wasn't clear, the uh???? was in reference to you not wanting to intereact with mastin at all this day phase while simultaneously believing that sorting mastin is the key to unlocking the gamestate fypov

pedit: "i will vote mastin at deadline" isnt a fucking scumread, are you serious?

I've been exercising extreme restraint for days now, thinking that I had a bias problem going on. I may have a bias problem but I don't care any more. I'm not going to spend any more time rereading, rethinking, reconsidering, or trying to understand other players' reads on mastinssk.

I'm done.

It doesn't really matter when I vote. I doubt very seriously my vote will go anywhere else today.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

shit took off after I fell asleep, so rewinding a bit

Who are the people that you would be willing to lynch come deadline? This is more so we don't have crazy flashwagons the day of the deadline.

This is without consulting Ffery, mind you:
1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
7 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK)
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
14 Cupcake Panda
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

(I do still think there's scum in my top tier town reads, but I'm not willing to act on that until I have a better idea of who it might be)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@Beli- so a sentence about why each is scum, iyo.

Hah! I still don't have any real scumreads except Mastin.

So that's unalloyed PoE, except weaker because I'm pretty confident I'm being taken for a ride by at least one scum chilling in my strong townreads.

-B

[Breakfast With Sandy]

shit took off after I fell asleep, so rewinding a bit

Who are the people that you would be willing to lynch come deadline? This is more so we don't have crazy flashwagons the day of the deadline.

This is without consulting Ffery, mind you:
1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
7 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK)
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
14 Cupcake Panda
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton

(I do still think there's scum in my top tier town reads, but I'm not willing to act on that until I have a better idea of who it might be)

We're not that different. Nacho, RG and Clyton are above my willing to lynch line as it is currently drawn. Maybe peregrine as well but that's mostly because I'm taking a chill pill after misreading him as scum in a few recent games.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

He had me on confirmed would game throw levels of town because he wanted me to feel good. He flopped on me because he's trying to pull the same "Nacho townreading me = Nacho town and Nacho scumreading me = Nacho scum" shit that Ceph pulled in ASOIAF.

Can you talk about your reads and what you learned from the day 1 deadline madness?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Select quoting doesn't work on this browser and I'm on mobile, so no quote tags, but @AP, Ffery is the one with the townread on Brian and I'm not contesting it.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Is this based on connections or just individual posting? I still have less than zero thoughts on Panda's alignment.

Individual posting, but mostly a gut reaction to the suggestion at that point in the thread. The moment kinda passed because aside from hating Panda's playstyle if he's town, the read is still pure cotton candy.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm just not real sure what's going on this game. I feel like there are several alternate universes in play right now and I can't figure out which one is the real one.

This is where I've been since about mid-day 1. Usually when I'm this screwed reads wise it's because the game is unannounced multiball or because I have at least one crucial read wrong. See the Red Wine game and my read of you as an example.

I'm 100% confident the game isn't unannounced multiball.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

My read on JSU is all over the place. It's what inspired the JSU!town wall from falcon. There are some things consistent with his town game such as discussing positionals or at least are consistent with how I've seen him scum hunt and what he talked about in the Wicked dead qt. But there are some things that are off that I can't quite put my finger on, including the melt down, which now I'm bringing up again and it makes me feel like shit to even question if it was real and if it was I'm going to feel like the most horrible person ever, but it conflicts with

I don't have a thought process. I have an inarticulate jumble I'm trying to untangle. I could post walls of paranoia and free association but I don't think this game thread needs it.

You guys can poke at me all you like. I doubt it will speed up what has become a Sisyphean effort at sifting out my thoughts about this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Jesus. you wonder why RBD was so pissed off at you, this is why. You are so fucking full of yourself. Its been a great displeasure this game CF.

Go fuck yourself.

I went back and looked to see me interacting with Beli and Ffery quite a lot, and PV as well. I am obviously not interacting with my neighborhood in thread. Most others haven't been active. I was holding off on explaining my Titan townread to PV. The only person I was ignoring is you. And choosing what of Mastin's posts to respond to because I just can't respond to ALL of them.

I'm ignoring you because you are going into a "refute and debate" mode. It doesn't seem like you were genuinely trying to figure out my affiliation or see where I am coming from. You are not handling suspicion in a "reasonable" way. That's part of why I didn't mind interacting with Ffery/Beli because even when I questioned their affiliation, they are still talking about it in a mature way.

I am not going to get into "you misrepped me, you are scum" "no you misrepped me, YOU are scum" type fruitless back and forth with you. If you have anything genuine to talk about and resolve, I am happy to go over it.

Not to pile on, but there's been a marked difference in your interactions with us vs Titan.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So, question to thread at large. Anyone else from Tales of Rebirth?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Jesus. you wonder why RBD was so pissed off at you, this is why. You are so fucking full of yourself. Its been a great displeasure this game CF.

Go fuck yourself.

I went back and looked to see me interacting with Beli and Ffery quite a lot, and PV as well. I am obviously not interacting with my neighborhood in thread. Most others haven't been active. I was holding off on explaining my Titan townread to PV. The only person I was ignoring is you. And choosing what of Mastin's posts to respond to because I just can't respond to ALL of them.

I'm ignoring you because you are going into a "refute and debate" mode. It doesn't seem like you were genuinely trying to figure out my affiliation or see where I am coming from. You are not handling suspicion in a "reasonable" way. That's part of why I didn't mind interacting with Ffery/Beli because even when I questioned their affiliation, they are still talking about it in a mature way.

I am not going to get into "you misrepped me, you are scum" "no you misrepped me, YOU are scum" type fruitless back and forth with you. If you have anything genuine to talk about and resolve, I am happy to go over it.

Not to pile on, but there's been a marked difference in your interactions with us vs Titan.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to figure out Titan's affiliation since I wasn't questioning it. Interactions with you are two-fold.

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Actually Belisarius is 90% of the reason I think Stalin is town.

ffery has been non-commital and wishywashy. Beli is actually fairly transparent with his thoughts.

Yeah but being non-committal and wishy washy isn't necessarily a scumtell. I feel non-committal and wishy washy right now. Why isn't it a problem for you that I am?

I don't think its a scumtell or I'd be waffling harder on them. I just find it annoying and its difficult for me to parse. I read players who are more stream of thoughts oriented better (*sigh, mastin*) because I like to read things carefully and just take in the opinions and feel out whether or not I can see that player doing that. People who are all over the place are easier to do that for in my opinion cause they document readily all the things that make them think what they think. Its less about the content and more about whether I think the opinions match omething reasonable. Ffery has been rather nebulous this game and that was part of my pressure on her D1 was to get her to do something (like lay a vote down) so I could pass a better judgment there.

Belisarius posts are more flash-bang and I can get a sense of where he is looking and why. In particular, I think his mastin pressure looks town from him.

P-edit: lol.

self meta ho.

This is nothing like how I hedge as scum. And I've dropped my usual approach as town as well because I usually don't put my mid-states in the thread and most of the waffle other players see is more of the light switch variety, with reverse trajectory tacked on. I'm not getting to end points, and it's frustrating. You guys are along for the ride until such time as I do either firm up a stance permanently or start swinging all the way to the endpoints before changing course.

As scum, I'd want to take a fucking stance or two and let the attention drift elsewhere.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

PoE, sheep town reads.

I thought I did answer it sometime on day 1 but maybe not.

You coughed my direction a couple times in that wall. Did I miss other questions?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Eh, I guess. It occurs to me that I've never actually seen you as scum before. It kind of felt that way this game though with your towntowntown reads on Bork/Titan/?Mac? and then just sort of coasting from there. But thats mostly irrelevant. I guess I am somewhat expecting Ffery from Xenosaga who actually scumread Flandre D1 and rolled with that pretty hard and Im not seeing it here. But thats just a niggle on my end that is irrelevant. I still think you are probstown. Can you explain your current read on Nacho?

I had a town read on bork and I kept it all of day 1. The deadline danse macabre made me worry about nacho, but it's really hard to see him calling attention to himself so blatantly, like in that string of posts where every post was a back and forth vote between two players. He could have redirected the lynch without making nearly such a spectacle.

Would he make the spectacle as scum anyway? possibly. So back to the borkread.

Which started to go a little stale over the weekend.

And then nacho wk's me a little in the process of scumreading Mastin.

And his catch up posts are what I like to see from him when he's town. Exactly what I like to see from him. Exactly the tone and the types of posts to respond to that I like to see from him. Exactly what he's been able to do as scum lately in a few games we've played together.

He and I both know I can't read him that way anymore.

And the borkread. Some of the stuff I look for was there in spades. Some of the stuff I kept waiting to see, and only got occasional flashes. And I can see two really compelling reasons why town-bork might not hit all those notes as often as I expect in the game thread this time. There's an active neighborhood. And there's real life.

He's not a strong town read, but he's above the line where I'd contemplate lynching him.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

And I should say that his basis for wking me fits perfectly with what I know of how he reads me. It's not a fabricated read.

Which isn't really germane to his alignment but it's a data point.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP I wrote you a fucking novel about my nachobork read. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho I'd like to talk to you about Tammy.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

After our last games, it's taken me aback.

Empire has a handle on how my irritability manifests as town and I think he probably could explain it to other players.
1
The niggles have been there for a while, though.

I feel like scum should basically be sharks in the water smelling blood at this point. I may not be lynchable today, but I'm getting there. But that's not the only use a bleeding townie has in scum tactics.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Mostly, I want reassurance that this fits how you absorb other playeres' styles.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery opinion would help as well (and anyone else that was in that game).

One obvious difference between the games is that he wasn't basically trolling another player in the board game mini.

However the peregrine/titan wall-war started in this game, IMO that's what it's become, with a little trolling on both sides.

I don't recall seeing him do this in any game ever tbh, regardless of alignment. I've seen him hare off after will-o-the-wisps. I've seen him follow an unraveled thread into a dark cul de sac. I've seen him lurk and put basically zero in the way of solid reads into games. As scum, from the few games I've seen, he's more likely to pick a popular scum read and agree. As town he tilts at windmills if the notion takes him.

In the board game, despite winding up in some arguments with tammy-hadrian, he didn't tunnel and he wound up with a town read overall. I think morph-me was his strongest scum read in that game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

I have no idea how to answer a question like this or from what context you are bringing it up. I think I at least want all the active players on the same page as me (outside of the neighborhood, this is you, Titan, to some extent PV, and those in the neighborhood, I'm just interacting with them there). I have been trying to sync with the inactives as well when they show up but that's not very often. Like I said, if you are town, I want you on my side.

Ok. I want to be correct. It's not enough to be town. It's not enough to be on another town player(s) side. That's not how games are won.

You and Tammy earlier talked about me being arrogant in other games about my reads and not listening to other players' opinions. I think that was an oversimplification but putting that aside look at your own play in this game.

There's nothing fundamentally WRONG with the way apparently town players have some strongly differing reads and concepts of how the game is unfolding. You want to push a consensus lynch today, but there's really no guarantee that a bunch of town players getting together with scum in their midst are going to come up with the right consensus answer. And that's not really what you want. What you want is for town to follow your lynch answer.

I probably should trust your reads more than I do, but there's something off about this game and I'm wondering if it has something to do with the effect of such a large neighborhood. You could all be town. you may very well all be town. But it's creating a gap in the game data.

I had a town read on bork and I kept it all of day 1. The deadline danse macabre made me worry about nacho, but it's really hard to see him calling attention to himself so blatantly, like in that string of posts where every post was a back and forth vote between two players. He could have redirected the lynch without making nearly such a spectacle.

In what ways did you find it markedly different from NY169?

Remind me of anything so blatantly and simultaneously opaque and transparent as the huge run of posts that were nothing but binary switches between voting two players, before dropping a player and adding another.[/quote]

sigh

[Breakfast With Sandy]

peregrine do you remember the standard you wanted to hold me/cabd to in the board game mini? It was a fairly recent game, but even over short periods players have variabiity in their effectiveness in any role.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho I'd like to talk to you about Tammy.

Really?

You've probably gotten there. The basis of her read on me. Does it make sense to you that town-Tammy would form a read this way?

Usually when someone fabricates a town read on me it's close to this form. But in this case it's zeroed in, not floaty.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

These are the main posts I think.

Then take your own goddamn advice about confbias.

I feel like this is one of those things empire would point out to me after the game and say it came from a town ffery.

I'm still learning, but I feel like it's one of them.

Okay, just read the last few pages, still in the process of digesting them.

So, I wondered more than once if my view of the gamestate was horribly wrong after Mastin's post to ffery but the AoT links makes me feel that it isn't.

It is mostly because sort of resonated with me. I think Breakfast is more likely town than scum but it has been frustrating at times to see eye to eye with ffery.

Why are they so obviously town? Who are the people that are posturing to lynch them?

You, des/bro, peregrine and mastin. It's just that all of you guys line of questioning is more geared to "gotcha" than it is to scumhunting. That's how it looks from the outside.

I just think the way she's thinking about the game looks town, and maybe it's because she seems to be seeing the game somewhatimilarly to me. Her interaction with mastin and talk about mastin looks town. I mean I *suppose* I could be reading her wrong but I don't feel like I am. I feel like I've learned a bit from tales of vesperia and the board game where I incorrectly thought she could be scum for something like three days. She's hit some of the same notes here that she did there, and iirc she was prioritizing this game over that one when she had little time last month. I pointed out a post last night I thought was more likely a town!ffery post.

Nacho I'd like to talk to you about Tammy.

Interesting.

I made you paranoid when i said I thought you were my strongest town read didn't I? I figured it would.

Caution. Wind. Woooooo.

I want to take this at face value. I want an external check of some sort, though.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho, what are your thoughts?

Why are you approaching nacho here with this rather than clyton's neighbor?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I thought that his "you'll have to depend on investigation to read me" post during day 1 looked like town confidence. I could go all "oh shit godfather", but IME that kind of comment comes from town a lot more often than scum.

Late day 1, the cracks in the emotionless exterior bothered me. His response, which I thought boiled down to "yeah but it's part of my master plan to show cracks in the exterior in this circumstance" also bothered me.

There's not much to do about further sorting him when he's absent.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Woah that was the wrong quote. Meant to quote this:

Late day 1, the cracks in the emotionless exterior bothered me.

Sorry bothered isn't really the right word. I noticed it because he'd made such point about his playstyle earlier. So I pushed him on it. The response was where most of the bother is centered.

I also wanted to see what he'd say about my own self-description of my play. He accepted it at face value, which suggests something about how deeply he's processing the game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Woah that was the wrong quote. Meant to quote this:

Late day 1, the cracks in the emotionless exterior bothered me.

Sorry bothered isn't really the right word. I noticed it because he'd made such point about his playstyle earlier. So I pushed him on it. The response was where most of the bother is centered.

I also wanted to see what he'd say about my own self-description of my play. He accepted it at face value, which suggests something about how deeply he's processing the game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I thought that his "you'll have to depend on investigation to read me" post during day 1 looked like town confidence. I could go all "oh shit godfather", but IME that kind of comment comes from town a lot more often than scum.

Late day 1, the cracks in the emotionless exterior bothered me. His response, which I thought boiled down to "yeah but it's part of my master plan to show cracks in the exterior in this circumstance" also bothered me.

There's not much to do about further sorting him when he's absent.

Do you think he shouldn't be reading you as town based on the differences between your playstyles?

I don't think that at all. It's a fact of mafia life that people have to find way to develop reads on players who don't approach the game similarly. It had more to do with me oversimplifying my day 1 play and him accepting it.

How do you think he came off in his interactions with Mastin earlier today?

I thought overall he came off well. There are some similar themes in all that to what caught my attention late day 1 in terms of his statements about strategic use of what I'm going to call exasperation but I think encompasses more.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Usually when someone fabricates a town read on me it's close to this form. But in this case it's zeroed in, not floaty.

Could you expand on this?*

*Disclaimer: I dont really have a good ingame reason for wanting to know, Im mostly just curious.

It's filed under strategic advantage; arms race.

so no.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I also wanted to see what he'd say about my own self-description of my play. He accepted it at face value, which suggests something about how deeply he's processing the game.

I dont understand. You expect someone to be nervous that you are lying about your playstyle? In a game full of people who would know you are lying about your playstyle? And really, I dont see why its that important of a thing in the first place.

I wasn't lying about my playstyle

in this game

and I didn't expect anyone to challenge me on the statement. But I did seriously oversimplify. I've given up on ever understanding how players who actually have played several games with me characterize my play style.

Someone who's playing with me for the first time, however, unless they're doing meta research (which he's shown no overt signs of having done or doing) usually either soaks up the feel of the room or winds up with the idea that I'm "not doing anything useful".

The feel of the room day 1 was "not doing anything useful" at least until I went into the mode of defending Rancid. With that, I think I the consensus probably changed to "actively doing deleterious stuff" given the majority Rancid read at that point.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I dunno. I expect my read to firm up there with more data. The main point is that he's indicated that cracks and other expressions of frustration are strategic. Which if true kinda takes away from the potential effectiveness of displaying them.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It doesnt sound like a strategic thing to begin with TBH.

What do you make of a player saying it is?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I expect my read to firm up there with more data.

You don't have enough data after 180 pages? >.>

It's a sign of the fully earned level of respect I have for your town game; your total lack of scumhunting and main contribution to the game being posts like this hasn't drawn my vote.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It doesnt sound like a strategic thing to begin with TBH.

What do you make of a player saying it is?

I dont think its alignment indicative, to be sure. A lot of people think silly things about strategy.

I dunno. I'd make an opinion on your assertion that hes taking away from his own strategy by saying it is a strategy, but I certainly dont understand what he thinks hes accomplishing enough to say whether or not thats true. And I've had people (you?) use this as a point against me incorrectly in the past when I've talked about wanting player X to rage in order to be come readable, etc so I dont put much stock in it as alignment indicative.

I don't remember taking that as a point against you. If I did, and that was the sole basis for the point, I'd be surprised.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

*PERFORMANCE

welp I can't seem to post to save my life right now.

I have one of those. I know exactly what it says about individual players in the town.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So, about an hour ago when I started catching up the read card on mastin changed to town. An hour later and now it's at hellifino.

My kitten turned a year old today though, you should all partake in the festivities!

She has hit my mafia weakness though, that's for sure!

Beli's mastin scumread has softened too.

Our major ah ha over the last 24 or so hours is that we have 3 bet the farm town reads. I'm starting to think about what scum have to work with when most of town is towning it up, or at least staying well within their town envelopes.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So, about an hour ago when I started catching up the read card on mastin changed to town. An hour later and now it's at hellifino.

My kitten turned a year old today though, you should all partake in the festivities!

She has hit my mafia weakness though, that's for sure!

Beli's mastin scumread has softened too.

Our major ah ha over the last 24 or so hours is that we have 3 bet the farm town reads. I'm starting to think about what scum have to work with when most of town is towning it up, or at least staying well within their town envelopes.

It's the conviction that she's showing! But that's one of my weaknesses, and I know it is. But it's still very influential on me ( that's not the right word, but). I tend to be swayed by "you know me" arguments. It's one of the major things that had me town reading ktnxbye in chef mafia. That conviction that he had that d3x should be town reading him felt so real. It resonates because there are some players that I expect to see me as town when I'm town and I've reacted a similar way.

The only thing that makes me hesitate is mastin is a much craftier scum player than I am and would probably be able to sound like he has this conviction way more naturally than I think I would be able, but it just sounds so real.

Is nacho one of your bet the farm town reads? If not, where are you standing with him?

Nacho isn't, no. He's somewhere in the low end of the next tier.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So, about an hour ago when I started catching up the read card on mastin changed to town. An hour later and now it's at hellifino.

My kitten turned a year old today though, you should all partake in the festivities!

She has hit my mafia weakness though, that's for sure!

Beli's mastin scumread has softened too.

Our major ah ha over the last 24 or so hours is that we have 3 bet the farm town reads. I'm starting to think about what scum have to work with when most of town is towning it up, or at least staying well within their town envelopes.

And they are?

GIFPie, DespBRO and Orcinus. Beli's actually more bet the farm about Orcinus than I was before we talked.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

By lost, do you mean a lack of strong scumreads?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ok, well what I've been mulling over in my spare time today is what the current gamestate means for scum.

While town as a whole not having a decisive direction, or even multiple decisive directions is nice, it's a volatile state. And I think it means that there aren't that many town players who are vulnerable to mislynch. Most of the players who could be considered lynchbait really aren't in this playerlist, if that makes sense.

I've seen this sort of dilemma for scum in smaller games.

How would you as scum tackle this gamestate?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Kinda surprised me when I realized it.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ok, well what I've been mulling over in my spare time today is what the current gamestate means for scum.

While town as a whole not having a decisive direction, or even multiple decisive directions is nice, it's a volatile state. And I think it means that there aren't that many town players who are vulnerable to mislynch. Most of the players who could be considered lynchbait really aren't in this playerlist, if that makes sense.

I've seen this sort of dilemma for scum in smaller games.

How would you as scum tackle this gamestate?

Me? I have no idea. There are very few instances in which I can think like scum when I'm not scum and even when I am scum.

This gamestate is especially difficult because it's hard to assess who the actual town possible scum groupings are.

And it's even more difficult for me because I'm not a planner at all. I think the most I come to planning is in night actions, if I'm the most influential person, in which I look at who would be most valuable to keep and who is most dangerous and needs to die. That's the sum total of my planning in any scum game.

I guess my scum plan would be the same as any of my scum plans. I always expect to be lynched early when scum. I feel like my alignment is written all over my posts either way. As scum my goal is always to make it look like people who aren't my partners are and those who are my partners aren't, so upon my inevitable lynch and flip they make it to end game. I really don't think beyond that.

I never expect to last long as scum either so I work on many of the same parts of the game during the day.

But one thing my first mafia mentor tried to get me to focus on was who I wanted around at mylo/lylo and to figure out what I could do to make that happen. What I'm probably most weak on, though, is seeing what the best final configuration actually is. Fortunately, I don't usually have full controll of that because the game usually evolves in unexpected directions.

CF, in the Wicked game you were hydraing with one of the best players I've seen at making scum stone soup out of a tough list of townies. Thoughts on how you would be applying some of that to this game if you were scum?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho same question.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

And making plans as scum beyond a day or 2 out is silly because of course things will go unexpectedly. At ffery: the direction is pretty much mastin getting lynched. There has been no other direction.

my vote sometimes has electromagnetic effects.

makes me cautious about using it.

which is to say I think that beli and I could probably break that wagon if we had a better idea where we should vote. And since we've grown less comfortable about voting Mastin we're struggling with what next and if it makes sense to eventually put our vote there with misgivings.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho am I town, scum, or fptslbooa?

Scum. Unless you die soon!

If I shove you really hard will your team NK me?

Also, why was I blocked?

Your target was me but it failed.
Seemed like you weren't blocked to me!

I want to lynch this cheeky clown fuck

nowhere in that sentence do I see the word scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

nowhere in that sentence do I see the word scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

And making plans as scum beyond a day or 2 out is silly because of course things will go unexpectedly. At ffery: the direction is pretty much mastin getting lynched. There has been no other direction.

my vote sometimes has electromagnetic effects.

makes me cautious about using it.

which is to say I think that beli and I could probably break that wagon if we had a better idea where we should vote. And since we've grown less comfortable about voting Mastin we're struggling with what next and if it makes sense to eventually put our vote there with misgivings.

So, you are basically saying that you could lead a counterwagon to Mastin if you want but aren't sure if you want to?

correct.

If he's scum, you probably could. That's part of the reason I am still scumreading Rancid is that their wagon was harder to push despite a more prolonged and sustained push than counterwagons like Orc and I think scum would want to push the wagon that is not on them.

Timing mattered. So did a divided town. wagons are sometimes more volatile near deadline.

Who were the scum pushing the orci wagon?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think bro is townreading him. bro talked me out of my vote over AP's claims

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ORCINUS

[Breakfast With Sandy]

what dude im studying

Are there any restrictions on your govern role?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think ffery might be scum :/

I'm finally breaking out of brainfreeze and you're scumreading me NOW?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think ffery might be scum :/

tell me things

pedit d1 only

k.

then I'm totally onboard with beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Timing mattered. So did a divided town. wagons are sometimes more volatile near deadline.

Who were the scum pushing the orci wagon?

If I am right about Mastin/Rancid/AP being scum, then they are the scum that helped derail the wagon and were happy to "work" with townies who wanted a different wagon, not so much in the way of votes but more of influencing the direction of the lynch with their voice. This makes any counterwagon much easier to push than Rancid themselves. Not that they pushed Orc in particular but helped push those multiple other wagons along with you and Nacho. In that way, forming a counterwagon is obviously easy. And it will be easy today (for you or anyone else) to form a counterwagon to Mastin at deadline depending on who the target is.

I think it has to do with players like Mastin or Rancid being active and polarizing that people form strong opinions on them. If enough people read them as hard town (which hapenned with Rancid), even if a bunch of people read them as hard scum, they will be difficult to lynch because the people strong-townreading them would go for

any

wagon that is not them with the intention of saving them as opposed to pushing a particular lynch of their choice. It can be advantageous as scum to be polarizing as opposed to being universally townread and Rancid certainly were. I think it is possible for town to be polarizing figures. I just don't know if that is the case here.

Do you think the nature of how the wagon formed says anything about Rancid's alignment?

What you're saying is counter to everything about how Nati plays as scum. zmuffin was in there, and he's not afraid at all to be abrasive as scum. But, it's more of a feature in his town game.

I think that assuming a wagon that doesn't form easily is a wagon on scum is a dangerous assumption.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think ffery might be scum :/

tell me things

pedit d1 only

k.

then I'm totally onboard with beli

i do not understand this train of thought

I may be hasty. The reason beli elevated you to untouchable townread had to do with what your role would mean in the hands of scum. Only being able to use it on day 1 negates some of that argument.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

sigh

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think ffery might be scum :/

tell me things

pedit d1 only

k.

then I'm totally onboard with beli

i do not understand this train of thought

I may be hasty. The reason beli elevated you to untouchable townread had to do with what your role would mean in the hands of scum. Only being able to use it on day 1 negates some of that argument.

sorry, what?

revealing that my role is only usable on day 1 makes me more likely to be scum, if we were just basing on role

also mara's replacing in with me

No, beli just thought that your role didn't have that kind of limit on it, and that there's no way scum would have a role like that if it could be used late in the game. It was a role-reason to consider you virtually assured town.

Which I can appreciate, but I'm very averse to basing my reads on that kind of logic in any game. But, putting you beyond any worry at all would be a relief. I really want a few solid, well based unshakable reads.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

i may be mistaken but it seems like your read on me moved to more town after i said that my govern was only usable d1

which still confuses me

lack of sleep partly and partly relief I think. I did get mixed up about beli's reasoning when I first saw your post.

But, I think the cusp of my read formation happened when you asked us if we were ok with being gladiated. Everything else is semantics.

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Me too.

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F16: ffery said nothing was happening at all. I corrected her by pointing out that mastin was quite clearly a thing that was happening. Cause I mean wow. How could anyone not see that as the centerpiece of today.

I agree nacho pposts look really town wrt. Tammy.

You're right that Mastin is a thing that was happening. But it's mostly a Mastin generated thing, with votes here and there and then a Nacho-tunnel.

But the thing is kind of static. It's this big lump sitting in the thread.

And then there's this push on me, which resulted in what? 2 votes? And a lot of talk about how this isn't my town game mostly by people who have never played with scum me. But it seems odd to me that the noise and the votes didn't go further if mastin is scum. I'm hard to lynch when town, but not impossible.

CF raised saving-rancid as a reason for all the vote-craziness on Day 1. So what's going on here?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

hi nacho.

mastin said she was square dancing in Canada or something.

who else is scum?

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are you talking to me?

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me too. drunk and phone posting

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at a punk bar with klingons.

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why the fuck are they playing metallica at a punk bar? and why can't my phone spell metallica?

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I can't get a single post in

I'm not exactly caught up, but I did catch that you did have mastin town enough to want to defend her. What did she do to completely flip that read around?

i'm really too drunk to nvigate a sea of bullshit right now
but she stabbed me in the fucking back

I missed this

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that was real. I felt terrible.

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and i love that about her. it's adorable. but in this situation, she saw this situation occuring and she's like "NOPE DON'T SEE SHIT"

i'm watching the wire now, and it's like witnesses who completely change their story after the gang comes after them and they get threatened. you know they're lying because you know they saw it happen, but they pretend they're seeing a completely different reality

I want to talk about a different narrative that fits the data but not on a damn phone. will try tomorrow.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

garage punk, surf punk protopunk filtered thru rockabilly?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So then what is your take on des's how dare I feel any suspicion towards your neighborhood whatsoever if mastin flips town nonsense that falcon relayed?

^it's more like f-16 theorized that ap and clyton are scum and the other two are setting up the neighborhood for mastin's town flip and i said "tammy and ffery are doing that"

I'm doing what?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Strong Town

3 Yggdra Union (giffy and pieguyn) 3 Yukari Yakumo - town as fuck. Would like to see more commentary about the overall game state and his thoughts about the neighborhood from pie.

4 orcinus_theoriginal - this will probably eventually weaken (for ffery) due to innate paranoia about mara if orcinus is a non-presence

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado) - Strong town on the basis of BRO. Day 2 Desp isn't impressing me. :/

Town but not as strong

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane) - I think I've put paranoia aside for now, but a scum team containing both tammy and nacho would fuck my reads over pretty badly. In a better mood, I could move this one up to the top tier.

nachomamma - Null/Town. Nacho focusing almost entirely on Mastin bugs me a little. He has a reads list on order. I've explained why I'm leaning town on the slot overall in the game thread earlier. beli has a visceral town reaction to Nacho's posts about Mastin (the ones from Friday. We haven't talked about the posts last night but I doubt they will change anything.)

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16) - lower tier town. I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town. His major detractor is AP though and that doesn't look like distancing. F-16 may be suffering from overall pissyness about the neighborhood and bearing the brunt of it because he's the most active neighborhood player in the game thread. I've been thinking about the neighborhood in the xenosaga game. The 5 player neighborhood contained the SK and 1 scum. I don't think any of the town players believed it was all town. No day talk probably helped prevent the game from winding up with a lot of key info/gameplay locked up in the neighborhood.

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience) - moved up from the maybe town bucket on the basis of Brian's day 2 activity.

Maybe Town

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV) - I feel like I may wind up having to look back at this town read at some point because I don't really like their day 2 involvement so far.

14 Cupcake Panda - smugly useless. I think this is a towntell

15 PeregrineV - efforting. In this player list he'd have to effort or die so I'm meh

16 Clyton - Not enough data, but what I have leans me mostly town.

Not So Town

7 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK) - null to null-scum. The brainstorm leading to calling me town doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but some of the recent effort looks at least a little townish. I guess I want to see what comes of the discussion between Mastin and Nacho. Different players, different approaches, but the interactions don't feel anything like how Nacho sorts me when he's scumreading me.

9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling) - ffery still leaning scum, beli is at null. I've been thinking about what I know of his scum play, and this doesn't feel like it, but it's also really piss-poor compared to what I know of his town play. My comparison to his town play feels like a mirror image of the complaints he has about my play. Which could maybe be to do with the overall game state and how it seems to be affecting players.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

nachomamma -

Null/Town

. Nacho focusing almost entirely on Mastin bugs me a little. He has a reads list on order. I've explained why I'm leaning town on the slot overall in the game thread earlier. beli has a visceral town reaction to Nacho's posts about Mastin (the ones from Friday. We haven't talked about the posts last night but I doubt they will change anything

The stricken was left over from earlier in the week. No longer applies.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

fuckifino.

All the fuss about my lack of reads, particularly scumreads feels like it's a labeling issue mostly.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

actually I think it was the rancid read that we've mostly argued about and that was because you were trying to get them lynched.

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14 Cupcake Panda - smugly useless. I think this is a towntell

More so due to thread being cluttered with too much noise.

Playing useful only leads to my lynch anyways.

You own your meta. Your meta doesn't own you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

I can go into more detail when I get home. I feel like we've played enough games together now that by mid day 2 I should feel pretty confident you're town. I also feel your read of me has been hedgy. your recent reads list doesn't alleviate that. what flips would solidify your read on me and why?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

thank tlaloc peng is town this time.

more in a bit.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I feel like I should have a stronger read here if he's town

This bugs me. I feel like you copied Tammy's reasoning. She has reason to feel that way about me but why would you?

I can go into more detail when I get home. I feel like we've played enough games together now that by mid day 2 I should feel pretty confident you're town. I also feel your read of me has been hedgy. your recent reads list doesn't alleviate that. what flips would solidify your read on me and why?

I think you are unlikely to be scum with Mastin. I'll have to think about Rancid. You derailed their lynch but the way they were appealing to you constantly and you sending them hugs feels like you are unlikely to be scum with them either and it'll help clear my mind.

What will clear your mind? Rancid's flip? Why are you expecting that flip before end of game? Do you think someone has the info about their alignment?

The one time you had to read me, you struggled to get a read although had me as leaning town so I don't know if you expected the same results or better.

Valid or not, my assumption is that reads are more easily formed with greater exposure to someone's play. And I feel like I"m reaching a point where I should have a pretty strong opinion by the end of day 1.

And in fact I did have a strong opinion by the end of day 1. But from your stances and questions it apparently isn't mutual. And I don't understand why. So the lack of mutuality is troubling and I wonder if my strong opinion was premature.

Your read on me is one thing that bugs me about you because I feel like I've been quite obviously town.

So do I. I feel like anyone who actually understands what differentiates my town game from my scum game should have no trouble reading me this game. And I thought that you had such an understanding because if anyone on this site has troubled to meta me you have. Nacho, too, but with him it's mostly experiential meta and the occasional follow-along of a game he isn't playing.

For example, leading a wagon on Rancid and putting this much effort into collaborating with the town. I'm also the most obviously town player from our neighborhood.

Your Rancid wagon did no favors with me. Putting this much effort in has been somewhat targeted and tactical, and I think you would do that no matter what your alignment. I think the way you have gone about it looks town, but not god-tier town which you keep insisting you've reached.

I am not sure why you'd expect to be read as obviously town when you haven't been.

Because you expect me to see you as obviously town. You're not the final judge of your towniness. And you haven't gotten over yourself. you're still expecting me to just...change my read.

I was completely taken aback that some players, including you and Bro, didn't have me solidly town but I'm dealing with it. I'm not haranguing you for not townreading me.

It's like you think you can bludgeon people into townreading you. Maybe that works sometimes with some players. All it does is get my back up.

Most of it D1 has been me and Pie leading the game and later Nacho

That's your opinion. I felt like whether the effect was good or ill, I was a large factor in how day 1 resolved, particularly that it didn't end with Rancid's lynch.

and D2 has been entirely me, you and Tammy trying to get on the same page

No it hasn't. There has been a lot of other stuff going on.

and figuring out where to go from there and Nacho's latest posts pushing everyone towards a Mastin lynch.

But this is key and will probably determine how this game day ends.

You are aware that your meta falls under different categories and some are easier to read as town than others. For example, AA: MFA when you led the lynch on Brian, you were fairly obviously town. I've meta'd you enough that I can catch all of your towngames but I don't know why you wouldn't want me to be certain in a game where you are not obvtown.

I don't care that you aren't certain. I care that you've been undermining me and raising suspicions about me all of day 2 and I really think you ought to take a look at the company you're keeping.

I looked lynchable at least at one point this game day. I'm really surprised there wasn't a stronger push than there was. But some consideration of who took advantage of that, who distanced, and how that impacted other nascent wagons wouldn't be a bad thing no matter what my alignment.

Your hesitation in reading me is one of the things that make me hesitate in reading you as top-tier town which is weird because you are hesitating on me because of

my

read on you.

Aside from "omgwtf you don't have any scumreads" you've done precious little aside from try to get me to vote with you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Edit: I misinterpreted the last point. I thought you were saying that I wasn't trying hard enough to get your vote on my scumreads but it turns out you are saying I am trying too hard which isn't a bad thing. But you say it is to the exclusion of everything else which isn't true. I probably spent more time delivering productive content into the thread, providing reads, questioning players, mediating, maybe leading lynches on scum (we'll have to see after Rancid flips), and most of all collaborating with other players and bouncing thoughts off of them so I disagree with almost everything you are saying.

You wanted to know why my town read of you isn't as strong as I thought it would be today - after day 1. It was pretty damn strong day 1 despite our Rancid read difference.

It isn't to the exclusion of everything else. I dunno. I am probably not valuing some of what you're putting effort into the same way you value it. Some of your efforts to explain people to each other strike me as overdone and even counterproductive. People form better reads through interacting and working through differences and you jumping in to explain their positions to each othere when your townreads disagree could delay or derail a more natural process of working through differences.

This convo is an example of what I mean when I said I feel like you've try to bludgeon me into agreeing with you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I agree that people form better reads through interactions and I actually value it. I generally mediate disputes only if I feel it has gotten out of hand or counterproductive or if someone asks my opinion on the player they are interacting with barring one or two exceptions. That's when I think it is best.

I am not trying to "bludgeon you" into agreeing with me. No idea where you get that from. I felt like you were trying to undermine my efforts D1 in securing a lynch. For instance, with the "bitching about compromise lynches" line instead of telling me that you disagree with a Rancid lynch but would compromise on Mastin so let's work together on securing that lynch instead of just letting the wagon build up and then voting anyone and everyone to save Rancid. I get that you gave reasons for it that I can see coming from town and that's partly why I am reading you as town but I feel like it could have been better and that's why I wasn't as sure of you being town.

I get that from your reaction to being apparently not town read strongly enough.

Somewhere in the last 2-3 pages I think I saw that you are thinking about whether AP or Mastin would be a better lynch today. What are your thoughts about that?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Does BRO still lean town on AP?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, @ ffery, I feel like he is a bigger threat than AP if they are scumpartners.

I want to see what beli thinks when he catches up with the weekend's worth of posting. He and I have flipped positions in terms of willingness to lynch Mastin, but I think the differences are pretty mild. I know he'd compromise on AP as of a couple of days ago.

I think the lynch is basically sealed, though.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, @ ffery, I feel like he is a bigger threat than AP if they are scumpartners.

I want to see what beli thinks when he catches up with the weekend's worth of posting. He and I have flipped positions in terms of willingness to lynch Mastin, but I think the differences are pretty mild. I know he'd compromise on AP as of a couple of days ago.

I think the lynch is basically sealed, though.

So, you are saying you are the one that wants to lynch Mastin and Beli thinks he could be town?

correct.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Reading Falcon's post reminds me of how odd his attack on ffery was.

which Falcon post?

Mastin's attack?

I left a question about hammering in our QT, but I'm fine if someone else wants to go ahead on.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Beli's good with hammering.

I have problems with Rancid-scum, and one of the big ones is Nati's appeal to me when I voted Mastin. That was the kind of card that lasts for a number of games when used as town. Burning it on the very next game as scum would be pretty short sighted.

Doesn't mean anything to players who aren't me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think we soaked up a roleblock.

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I gave ours on day 2. nobody claimed to belong to the same game.

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I was definitely not role blocked.

I believe this because while you weren't roleblocked last night, I was.

I'm not expanding anything past me sending in a night action last night and being explicitly told my role failed.

Then the game has (at least?) two blocking roles.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I don't trust any of the three. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Then the game has (at least?) two blocking roles.

Mac's role was capable of blocking roles indirectly.

LB flipped Roleblocker IIRC.

Apparently we have a confirmed RB floating around. Unless..

Did you happen to target NAcho last night if you are comfortable with saying?

No.

Based on how bork reacted to your claim yesterday, I put them down as possible ascetic.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I was definitely not role blocked.

I believe this because while you weren't roleblocked last night, I was.

I'm not expanding anything past me sending in a night action last night and being explicitly told my role failed.

Then the game has (at least?) two blocking roles.

If AP is town and you're not a GF, then yes?

I mean, even if you're scum, could be. But I was definitely 100% roleblocked in some way.

At a guess, I'm lined up for if not the next NK a soonish one, based on the interference last night and AP getting a result back on me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Tales of Rebirth

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Tammy why did you vote CF?

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Pere told you?

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Nacho, you got some reads?

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Although I would really like you to help me sort magenta.

magenta got a lot more difficult for me to read with mara joining. But, I was still feeling pretty confident orcinus has been town overnight.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Although I would really like you to help me sort magenta.

magenta got a lot more difficult for me to read with mara joining. But, I was still feeling pretty confident orcinus has been town overnight.

What does your scum team look like?

I expected to get some pushback about my certainty Rancid was town at the start of the game day and also some crap about getting agreement to hammer from Beli and then not hammering. I was hoping to get some sense of whether the anticipated push came from town or scum mindsets.

Other shit happened. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

F16: ffery said nothing was happening at all. I corrected her by pointing out that mastin was quite clearly a thing that was happening. Cause I mean wow. How could anyone not see that as the centerpiece of today.

I agree nacho pposts look really town wrt. Tammy.

You're right that Mastin is a thing that was happening. But it's mostly a Mastin generated thing, with votes here and there and then a Nacho-tunnel.

But the thing is kind of static. It's this big lump sitting in the thread.

And then there's this push on me, which resulted in what? 2 votes? And a lot of talk about how this isn't my town game mostly by people who have never played with scum me. But it seems odd to me that the noise and the votes didn't go further if mastin is scum. I'm hard to lynch when town, but not impossible.

CF raised saving-rancid as a reason for all the vote-craziness on Day 1. So what's going on here?

I think this post from yesterday has some important stuff, but I don't know what to do with it.

The mastin wagon wasn't really opposed. The minor pushes in other directions didn't gather much steam. That's OBVIOUS in hindsight.

But what the fuck was going on Day 1? What wagons benefited from the Rancid and Mastin focus? I hate VCA and I usually just find stuff that misleads me when I look at it, but I'm going to try to dig a little through the votes sometime soon.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Although I would really like you to help me sort magenta.

magenta got a lot more difficult for me to read with mara joining. But, I was still feeling pretty confident orcinus has been town overnight.

What does your scum team look like?

I expected to get some pushback about my certainty Rancid was town at the start of the game day and also some crap about getting agreement to hammer from Beli and then not hammering. I was hoping to get some sense of whether the anticipated push came from town or scum mindsets.

Other shit happened. :/

You thought you'd be a primary target today?

Maybe not primary. I expected some heat.

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Also, this is the part where I tell you all I FUCKING TOLD YOU ALL ABOUT GIF FROM THE FUCKING ONSET, AND I FUCKING KNEW HE WAS A MODERATE TO STRONG PR.

You don't get to tell me shit about GiF. But feel free to tell others!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Right now my reads on Tammy and Ceph/DV are most in question. I feel like they've positionally benefited from the noise that's happened this whole game (interesting that, since the day start, I'm the only one to even bring up Ceph/DV).

Oh hey!

I brought them up in my late day 2 reads list. Might be worth a look see.

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the world will end if I don't buy a bag of coffee before tomorrow.

back later.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I give up. If the only person I think is town in this game actually thinks I'm scum then I just give up. I don't know what's going on here at all.

If you're talking about me, I was talking about my ceph/dv read in my reply to BRO.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Why do you want that?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

and you think the info couldn't possibly benefit scum?

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Not really, no. The reason is largely selfish, but I've no doubt there are townspeople with age limitations to their PR's.

Also assuming all the scum have age limitations to their roles, they already have at most, 8 people in this game who they know are adult/child while those who are town have at most, two

Can you explain the bolded?

sigh

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Not really, no. The reason is largely selfish, but I've no doubt there are townspeople with age limitations to their PR's.

Also assuming all the scum have age limitations to their roles, they already have at most, 8 people in this game who they know are adult/child while those who are town have at most, two

Can you explain the bolded?

Assuming scum roles only work on one of kids/adults, the fact that they have fail/success during the past two nights would lead them to the conclusion of what age group their target belongs in. If each scum targeted different people (which is very likely) the past two nights, they would have age groups of 8 people (2X4=8) while townspeople with same limitation only have the age groups of those they targeted.

So you think all scum have targeting abilities?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

:/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

DV that's a pretty disappointing catch-up

- What did you think about magenta's suggestion for a partial flavor claim?

- What did you think about two players reporting being blocked?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

This whole Day feels like I'm playing Mafia in Bizzaro Universe. On hallucinogenic drugs.

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Breakfast, what are your updated reads? Who do you think are the four most likely players to be scum?

How do you feel about AP's day 3 posts?

What do you think about magenta's flavor claim suggestion?

I'll post a reads list later today.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

CF did GiFPie role claim in the neighborhood?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

My read faded a little overnight.

On the not-scum side, there was little reason to take such a blazing stance on Mastin yesterday to push that lynch through. On the scum-side I think she knows what leads to my townreading her now that we've played a few games, and I think other players may look for similar markers. You're right that some of those markers were done in spades on day 2.

I'm not sure how I'll go about firming that read up today.

Did you follow NY 172?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Can you see her push coming from a town mindset?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

This is not making any sense to me.

Why would scum roles only work on one of adults/kids? And why not mention beasts? Annnd, you are using this as a justification for a massclaim of flavor. Why do you even care?

So you think the flavor info is irrelevant to game mechanics? Even though CF's ability is a flavor-based mechanic?

Ever since RG claimed he also was blocked last night, I've wondered if actions succeed or fail based on at least a partial match of flavor attributes. It could be something breakable in the design but I doubt it because lolcabdgame. I would expect it to harm town as much as help to put it all on the table just yet.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

i'm not thinking anything. was curious about you

i'm still sitting at mastin scum, and i have another scumread i'm keeping my eyes on for now

clyton hasn't been on my mind at all

Who's the other scumread? And do you have any solid townreads?

if i thought that the best course of action would be to tell you the other scumread, don't you think that i wouldn't have bothered to hide it in my last post?

if tammy is scum this game i'll eat myself

fery's as town as i'll ever have her

i still like nacho and bork based off d1

nacho/Mastinssk/Pigey/Carbonfiber

scumteam 2014

What changed your mind about nacho between these two posts?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Sample Role PMs:

Welcome, Yulia Jue, to Tales of You

You are a Town-Aligned Mod.

By Lorelei!

Your power to communicate with the 7th fonon itself gives you immense powers. As such, you know everything and can see everything. I suppose you ought to help the others out by guiding them down the path of fate, hmm?

Adult

For all abilities dependent upon Age, you are classified as an adult.

Female

For all abilities dependent upon Gender, you are classified as a female.

From Abyss

As a character from Tales of the Abyss, for all abilities that are dependent upon Game, you are classified as a citizen of Auldrant

Welcome, Yulia Jue, to Tales of You

You are a Mafia-Aligned Mod.

By Lorelei!

Your power to communicate with the 7th fonon itself gives you immense powers. As such, you know everything and can see everything. I suppose you ought to help the others out by guiding them down the path of fate, hmm?

Replica

As a replica, you are aligned with the mafia team, consisting of: X Y Z A and may speak with your team at any time in this QT: NOPENOLINKFORYOU Additional information is contained in the first post, please be sure to read it carefully.

Adult

For all abilities dependent upon Age, you are classified as an adult.

Female

For all abilities dependent upon Gender, you are classified as a female.

From Abyss

As a character from Tales of the Abyss, for all abilities that are dependent upon Game, you are classified as a citizen of Auldrant

@AP How do you interpret the sample role PM then?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Im pretty concerned that neither you nor DV bothered to listen to my point about mastin's play in that game compared to here. I'd probably say its scummy of you 2, but I know you are confirmed so whatever I guess. Still extremely annoyed that no one gave a shit about me waiting to out this.

I don't claim to be able to read Mastin accurately, and my Mastin read was if anything more based on our interactions in L4D than NY 172. This game was the 2nd where Mastin grossly misread me. And the first time it was a fabricated read. And just like in L4D it felt like she was making sweeping and totally incorrect statements about my play and my meta. I was on pins and needles for L4D to end so I could refer to it in this game. And I would have liked to have talked to you about the parallels and differences I saw in her attack on me in that game.

I brought 172 up because of Penguin's play in that game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@Breakfast-

As noted above, 172 just finished.

Check out this ISO of one of your heads.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41158

Now, using as many words as possible, explain how you were unable to secure any reads day1 and day2.

Nope. Not going to indulge you. Replacing into a 120 page game is nothing like living a game from the start of day 1. My objectivity as a replacement is one of the strong points in my replacement games. I lack that in from-the-start games.

The way I catch up varies from replace-in to replace-in, and as I said at the end of that game I had initially planned to do a Magua style not-reading-shit replacement, but the compulsive vig role precluded that.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

we are also aware of which situations our role will fail in

We aren't aware.

But, the language of our result stuck out with the emphasis on it failing. Also, RG used a word in his post 5123 that echoes something about our PM about our role failing. Not our action. Our role.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@Breakfast-

As noted above, 172 just finished.

Check out this ISO of one of your heads.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41158

Now, using as many words as possible, explain how you were unable to secure any reads day1 and day2.

Nope. Not going to indulge you. Replacing into a 120 page game is nothing like living a game from the start of day 1. My objectivity as a replacement is one of the strong points in my replacement games. I lack that in from-the-start games.

The way I catch up varies from replace-in to replace-in, and as I said at the end of that game I had initially planned to do a Magua style not-reading-shit replacement, but the compulsive vig role precluded that.

But, the process of catching up included you looking at posts and reaching conclusions based on those posts.
You were able to (fairly effectively and in a short period of time) determine 4 players probable alignments.
I find it hard to believe that you can't do that because you started playing in this game instead of replacing in.

It was based on analysis of three scum ISOs and their reads, votes, and stances. That's a tremendous amount of useful data.

You can look at my recent replacement vs from start games and see how they differ. You played in several of them. L4D, boardgame are 2 examples that are pretty stark comparisons to ny 172. In the boardgame I didn't really start walling until I had similar data about flipped scum to consider.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

we are also aware of which situations our role will fail in

We aren't aware.

But, the language of our result stuck out with the emphasis on it failing. Also, RG used a word in his post 5123 that echoes something about our PM about our role failing. Not our action. Our role.

So you think that your action failed because your target was not of the correct flavor?

I dunno. Maybe?

I'm not sure how hard I want to dig at this toDay. Beli is ok with outing our flavor info. I want to hold off for now.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@Breakfast-

As noted above, 172 just finished.

Check out this ISO of one of your heads.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41158

Now, using as many words as possible, explain how you were unable to secure any reads day1 and day2.

Nope. Not going to indulge you. Replacing into a 120 page game is nothing like living a game from the start of day 1. My objectivity as a replacement is one of the strong points in my replacement games. I lack that in from-the-start games.

The way I catch up varies from replace-in to replace-in, and as I said at the end of that game I had initially planned to do a Magua style not-reading-shit replacement, but the compulsive vig role precluded that.

But, the process of catching up included you looking at posts and reaching conclusions based on those posts.
You were able to (fairly effectively and in a short period of time) determine 4 players probable alignments.
I find it hard to believe that you can't do that because you started playing in this game instead of replacing in.

It was based on analysis of three scum ISOs and their reads, votes, and stances. That's a tremendous amount of useful data.

You can look at my recent replacement vs from start games and see how they differ. You played in several of them. L4D, boardgame are 2 examples that are pretty stark comparisons to ny 172. In the boardgame I didn't really start walling until I had similar data about flipped scum to consider.

That I also get, but I'd expect you to have something (anything) more solid than these:
1872-3401-4174-4950

pedit- Hold off unless relevant

I don't think you have any concept of how disconcerting it was to be on such a different page about Rancid (and on day 1 about Mastin as well) from several players I was townreading. I feel a little better now because my concept of the game state has been somewhat validated by Rancid's flip. I'm not sure yet what to do with that data. I mentioned doing some VCA soon, but I'm hoping someone else will get to it first because I find it tedious and I usually wind up missing the forest for the trees anyway.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to explore some other avenues that night results (and lack thereof) suggest.

Why did you vote Magenta?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Rancid flipped Battleseeker. I assume that aside from the miller part (and counterclaiming Carbon) that his other posting was correct/not lies. Which means two town-gladiator type roles, or one town (Rancid) and one scum (Orcinus).
Magenta has not towned it up for me, Orcinus was marginal, and roles seem to indicate that he is likely scum.

Have you missed all the talk about Vesperia and the fact that town had TWO roles with rolecop abilities in a mini?

Whatever part the role duplication plays in your read, you should probably discount that.

Also, have you so quickly forgotten the NORMAL game you've been referring to, with its TWO town joats, and two town roles with night killing abilities?

If your marginal read on Orcinus is your strongest scum read in the game then go on with you, I guess.

But you absolutely have no basis for dissing my pile of null/null-scum at the bottom of my reads lists.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Tales of Rebirth

[Breakfast With Sandy]

orcinus said his character is ragou so Vesperia?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Rancid flipped Battleseeker. I assume that aside from the miller part (and counterclaiming Carbon) that his other posting was correct/not lies. Which means two town-gladiator type roles, or one town (Rancid) and one scum (Orcinus).
Magenta has not towned it up for me, Orcinus was marginal, and roles seem to indicate that he is likely scum.

Have you missed all the talk about Vesperia and the fact that town had TWO roles with rolecop abilities in a mini?

Whatever part the role duplication plays in your read, you should probably discount that.

Also, have you so quickly forgotten the NORMAL game you've been referring to, with its TWO town joats, and two town roles with night killing abilities?

If your marginal read on Orcinus is your strongest scum read in the game then go on with you, I guess.

But you absolutely have no basis for dissing my pile of null/null-scum at the bottom of my reads lists.

There was also a game with 2 millers, 2 docs, etc.

But the majority of games have a town version and a not-town version, so I feel OK with assuming that to a higher degree of probablity.

As for further play, prior to his wagon day1, what were Orcinus' reads? Specifically, who did he think was scum?

Vesperia was a Cabd game. :/

IIRC he had one strong scum read, at least early on - elemental hawk/AP. He expressed town reads on Titan, Kagura and me. He had LB and you at null, I think.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

There were 4 players.

One flipped scum.

The other you are using as the source of what is happening in the neighborhood (Carbon), so by your own definition you can't think he is scum. Carbon feels Nacho is scum. You defend Nacho, so you must not think he is scum. That leaves JustSheepUs (Bro/Desp).
If you think they are scum, then I don't see the push on them I'd expect if you really thought that.
And I don't see where you have 3 other suspects who are also scum with him.

wat?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Rancid flipped Battleseeker. I assume that aside from the miller part (and counterclaiming Carbon) that his other posting was correct/not lies. Which means two town-gladiator type roles, or one town (Rancid) and one scum (Orcinus).
Magenta has not towned it up for me, Orcinus was marginal, and roles seem to indicate that he is likely scum.

Have you missed all the talk about Vesperia and the fact that town had TWO roles with rolecop abilities in a mini?

Whatever part the role duplication plays in your read, you should probably discount that.

Also, have you so quickly forgotten the NORMAL game you've been referring to, with its TWO town joats, and two town roles with night killing abilities?

If your marginal read on Orcinus is your strongest scum read in the game then go on with you, I guess.

But you absolutely have no basis for dissing my pile of null/null-scum at the bottom of my reads lists.

There was also a game with 2 millers, 2 docs, etc.

But the majority of games have a town version and a not-town version, so I feel OK with assuming that to a higher degree of probablity.

As for further play, prior to his wagon day1, what were Orcinus' reads? Specifically, who did he think was scum?

Vesperia was a Cabd game. :/

IIRC he had one strong scum read, at least early on - elemental hawk/AP. He expressed town reads on Titan, Kagura and me. He had LB and you at null, I think.

So, at deadline day1, Orcinus votes himself to ensure a lynch, governs it, and then places a nullread and a townread to die instead of scumreads or scum/null?

Who did he have as scum at that point? Should he have gladiated the claimed cop on day 1?

At that point in the game, my strongest scum read was off limits until at least day 2. Orcinus' choices made sense to me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You played against your win Von and you plated against your wincon in left4dead.

I'm not going to interact with you anymore.

You are scum.

Actually, those games are over and I played to win in both. I did in one, and did not in the other. But that's not relevant to this conversation, which it seems like you keep trying to derail.

I can't say anything nice here, but if that's your idea of playing to win it explains a metric fuckton of terrible play.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Who did he have as scum at that point? Should he have gladiated the claimed cop on day 1?

At that point in the game, my strongest scum read was off limits until at least day 2. Orcinus' choices made sense to me.

OK. Then don't vote him. Still need to catch 4 scum.[/quote]

You haven't indicated what you think he should have done instead of gladiate the strongest scumread he'd mentioned at that point.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Tales of Abyss?

: CF, JSU, Nacho

Tales of ???:

PA, Tammy
------

Tales of Hearts:

AP, RG

Tales Of Rebirth

: Stalin

Tales of Vesperia:

PV
???: Panda, orcinus, FoxHound

You guys probably claimed some of this before, but what is everyone's game?

updated. forgot Foxhound before.

I think orcinus is also vesperia.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If you were town and had the role to pick one of two players to die instead of you, how would you go about it? Think of how you'd do it as scum.

How did Orcunis do it?

If he didn't have strong scumreads or bother reading the game, why force the use of his ability? Statistically random picks are anti-town. Uninformed picks are basically the same.

It's like that late-day wagon on orcinus never happened in your world.

sigh.

also fucking p-edits.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If you were town and had the role to pick one of two players to die instead of you, how would you go about it? Think of how you'd do it as scum.

How did Orcunis do it?

If he didn't have strong scumreads or bother reading the game, why force the use of his ability? Statistically random picks are anti-town. Uninformed picks are basically the same.

It's like that late-day wagon on orcinus never happened in your world.

It did.

And before I start sounding high and mighty, I don't feel like your comment fully answered the questions presented. Can you please rephrase your responses?

I think I did answer fully. You just don't get the context, I guess. If I had that role and had been run up right at deadline, I would have had pretty much the same group of players in mind to gladiate, with the goal of not making a bad situation for town worse. Add to this that he thought he would be able to talk to the players during thunderdome - if you read his posts prior to it starting that's what he expected, and it would have been a great opportunity to get caught up without all the noise this game was generating before and after Thunderdome.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

SO THEN EITHER YOU GUYS ARE BOTH FAKECLAIMING, OR SOMETHING INTERFERRED WITH MY ACTION

DO YOU THINK IT PLAUSABLE THAT ANYONE WOULD TARGET ME OF ALL PEOPLE?!

I THINK NOT

I targeted you.

My message back is that my role explicitly failed.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ALSO NO WE ARE NOT FINISHING UP THIS FLAVOR CLAIM UNTIL TOMORROW

What is your character name?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ALSO NO WE ARE NOT FINISHING UP THIS FLAVOR CLAIM UNTIL TOMORROW

What is your character name?

I want an answer to this right now. I'm going to consider a failure to answer to be a scum claim.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Maybe Ive been unkillable at night cause Im getting protected?

How would this work?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Explain, please?

I thought it unlikely for there to be a bulletproof, a bodyguard, and a watcher all in the same game. That's a lot of restrictions on scum nightkill choices.

IF they all work on any player.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Maybe Ive been unkillable at night cause Im getting protected?

How would this work?

I dont know and I dont care. People are asking me why Panda would do this as scum and I really dont care.

The only way I can see this working is if you think Pere lied about not trying to vig someone last night.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

The only way I can see Katsuki being town is if the scumteam is RG is lying about being blocked and maybe JSU is also scum just bussing, i really dont know.

Or if he doesn't understand how his role works.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

The only way I can see Katsuki being town is if the scumteam is RG is lying about being blocked and maybe JSU is also scum just bussing, i really dont know.

Or if he doesn't understand how his role works.

Hmm...I need to think about this but I've got to go back to work.

The way I see it a delayer is the opposite of a motivator. I was a motivator once and the people I targeted didn't get motivated until the following night. They didn't even find out that they had been motivated until the next night phase. But, I've also seen motivators that resolve instantly.

It bugs me that I was the first to mention this possibility given I was at the fucking grocery store when the counterclaim/counter-counterclaim went down.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP is your character considered a child?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

The only way I can see Katsuki being town is if the scumteam is RG is lying about being blocked and maybe JSU is also scum just bussing, i really dont know.

Or if he doesn't understand how his role works.

Hmm...I need to think about this but I've got to go back to work.

The way I see it a delayer is the opposite of a motivator. I was a motivator once and the people I targeted didn't get motivated until the following night. They didn't even find out that they had been motivated until the next night phase. But, I've also seen motivators that resolve instantly.

It bugs me that I was the first to mention this possibility given I was at the fucking grocery store when the counterclaim/counter-counterclaim went down.

Oh did you already say that? You saying that he might not understand how his role worked reminded me of the time I was a motivator. I remember asking in thread the next day if my target got something or the other and he didn't know what I was talking about. I figured I'd been blocked at first until I clarified my role, and my crumb was picked up on after I'd been nightkilled and used to prove that scum made an action that made him look town. I was not happy with myself.

I didn't say it explicitly because I didn't want to hand katsuki a way to back out of the claim on a silver platter, but what you posted is the scenario I deleted before making that post.

I think in most town games I remove about a quarter of everything I start to post.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP is your character considered an adult?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP is your character considered a child?

No. I think I missed this ? before.

I didn't say it explicitly because I didn't want to hand katsuki a way to back out of the claim on a silver platter, but what you posted is the scenario I deleted before making that post.

The delayer role Im familiar with makes the targets action resolve one night later than it would otherwise. Its pretty simple. Unless Katsuki is going to go "LOLOL MY ROLE DOESNT WORK ON ADULTS" now which would be complete shit, I dont know how this is something that is easily misunderstandable.

I'm trying to figure out if there are mechanical reasons why my action failed on N2. Figuring out the plethora of apparent roleblocks would be kinda helpful to me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

But your action wasn't on me so why would you care about me being an adult?

I targeted you on night 1.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If you weren't such a scumfuck maybe half of town wouldn't be targeting you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Stalin is Stallin' which is pretty par for the course.

heh.

you want us to vote cupcake. we're probably going vote cupcake once we've discussed shit and put some reads down.

I don't understand why you're in such a hurry to end the game day. As far as neighborhoods go, I think we're probably a singleton game character, so figuring out a neighborhood to activate night 3 isn't my problem.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Beli and I have decided to full-claim our night action.

We're an amnesiac follower. We pick a target and a player to receive the results.

Night 1 we targeted AP and picked CF to get the results. Night 2 as I've said, we targeted Cupcake and chose one of our bet the farm town reads to get the result, but our role failed.