Mafiascum.net

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:So, in a way, you were doing a reaction test with elle then? Is that what you're saying?

Not really. "Reaction tests" imply doing something unnatural, stupid, scummy or saying things the player doesn't actually believe to see how people react. I was standing my ground more forcefully than needed to force interaction and debate. Nothing I've said so far was a lie or something I solely said just to see how someone would react.

^Could argue semantics on this, but it would probably be a waste of time.

I just really don't agree with a lot of the reasoning you're dropping on elle being scum, even if I've thought she's scummy thus far for other reasons. I want to know if it's just that our thought processes for scumhunting are very different or if you're forcing your reasoning, because I keep getting feelings that it's more likely to be the latter. The nitpickiness of #375 bugs me. Attacking stuff like her use of the word "noted" feels like such a stretch to me and I don't know why you'd want to pad your posts with something like that. Like, I just get this bad feeling that you were trying to start an argument to get a townread and now that you've been called on it, you're backtracking and saying the argument was for the purpose of trying to sort elle. Maybe you could make that argument for 1-2 of your posts, but you'd already concluded that elle was scum as of like.. your second response to her. What's the point in pushing the argument further if it was mainly to try and read her? To me it looks like you're just throwing up an evergrowing wallwar against elle which most people are eventually going to give up on trying to read. If you think she's scum, is that really the best way to convince people that she's scum?

Don't prod me. I'm planning to read and post a full analysis of the game. It will have to wait until the next year though.

BTW: Happy New Year everyone!

[/b]

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

Swag wrote:I have read and I believe you two are of the same alignment.

So you think it's TvT then?

I never said it was town versus town, I just said I think those two are of the same alignment.

↑ Whatisswag wrote:I dont take real life as an excuse, I am sorry. I initially wanted to unvote dave but he kept saying real life. Whatever, I will keep voting him too. Also, I will take note to not play with elle in future games as she has distorted logic.

I was just getting mad in this post. Not much information to provide. Why do you keep mentioning 311 312?

The way that lone ranger only comments on Elle's most recent posts and ignores the rest looks like a POSSIBLE scum bussing scum. Town would have a wider view. But it could be possible that she just does not want to include the earlier posts. Even if I die, I dont believe Elle versus lone ranger are of the same alignment.

Unrelated to the correction, swag's more recent posting makes me quite a bit more comfortable about him. Not quite to the point that I'm sold on him being town, but not scummy enough to warrant my vote right now.
UNVOTE:

I'm not bothered by elle defending per se, but the way she's defending adds to the somewhat scummy vibe I got from the way she went about defending me / attacking swag.
VOTE: elleheathen

Happy New Year's everyone. I'm now going to catch up with the thread.

Whatisswag wrote:I never said it was town versus town, I just said I think those two are of the same alignment.

But you called something that elle said town just a page before and have called things she's said before town as well. Shouldn't your stance be that both of them are likely to be town then?

Ack, sorry I've been gone. Ironically, I should be able to devote more time to this next week after my holiday ends.

@dave (315): Ah, okay. The timing made you case look pretty OMGUS, but I can see you brought up some other points. I guess we can just disagree then.

Kaboose's case on elle make sense, I do think she is uncomfortably self-aware in general. I can see where Cheetory's coming from, too, saying she jumps on easy things. I feel pretty "meh" about elle though. Like, she certainly could be scum and I'd be up for an elle lynch if nothing else jumps at me, but it's not really clicking for me.

I had left my vote on Kaboose because he hadn't responded to me yet, from 279 (also because his initial response to me seemed weirdly hostile in contrast to his entrance). I guess some of that stuff isn't that relevant anymore, though I still want to talk about corpses at some point. I disagree with some of Kaboose's pushes (I still think corpses seems town, and the case on dave in 323 seems more about playstyle choice than alignment) but he seems to be genuinely thinking through his cases.
UNVOTE:

Cheetory can also leave my lynch pool for passing up opportunities to scumread people and a few other reasons.

Re: the Ranger/elle debate, I really, really like Cheetory's remarks. The whole "forcing an argument" thing does make the argument feel like an attempt to get townreads. Could just be the power of suggestion though. I found myself nodding along with Ranger more often than with elle - mostly because elle seemed unnecessarily hostile and posturing. Lines like "Do you typically like to wait until deadline to lynch - or just as scum?" (377) make me wonder why elle waited until 395 to vote, too.

It struck me that elle acted differently towards Ranger than I remember her acting towards other people, almost immediately. It looks like her voting history goes swag -> awesome -> swag -> Ranger (which is fewer people than I expected and doesn't support Cheetory's argument that she attacked lots of easy targets), and I know several people have voted her, but I didn't remember elle bristling like this before. I can see a few similar moments in her ISO, though. I need to meta elle to figure out whether this is just playstyle.

@elle: Is my understanding correct that you're scumreading Ranger for 1) not revealing the reasons for her reads and 2) bringing a bad attack on you?

@swag: Why do you think elle and Ranger are the same alignment?

dave's jump onto the elle wagon pinged for me at first but looking back his trajectory on elle seems fine.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

Whatisswag wrote:I never said it was town versus town, I just said I think those two are of the same alignment.

But you called something that elle said town just a page before and have called things she's said before town as well. Shouldn't your stance be that both of them are likely to be town then?

The argument itself is either scum and scum or town and town.

And also, the reason I find it town town is because of the aggressiveness shown by both.

The reason I dont find it town scum is because I cannot really seem town pushing hard on scum and scum also pushing hard back.

Scum scum is because of possible bussing.

I'm asking why you're not townreading both of them if you were supposedly calling elle blatantly town here:

↑ Whatisswag wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Grib wrote:
And how sure is really sure? On Day 1, how sure is too sure? Point me to quotes or points that helped you form your reads, something concrete.

Reaaaally sure for me usually means I'd be willing to bet my lynch on it - ie, 1v1.

This is town.

While also saying that they must be sharing alignment.

awesome wrote:which is fewer people than I expected and doesn't support Cheetory's argument that she attacked lots of easy targets

Was moreso saying that it seemed like she jumped on you specifically because she needed to have a vote on someone at that point in time and thus the overjustification instead of admitting that it was a just a weak vote reads as scum nervousness to me.

Finished the reread.

1. I feel less suspicious about Corpses's interaction with swag after my reread.

2. Grib's posting looks like solid town. He's catching things and articulating ideas that I am having upon reading the thread. Suggests that we're approaching the game from the same alignment mindset.

3. To a lesser extent, I get town vibes from awesome's and Kaboose's postings. Fairies is still a lean town read (don't know if I ever made that explicit from my earlier review of her play).

4. Cheetory's posts come from a much more mechanical stand point (if that makes any sense, I'm not sure it does; but it's the best way I can describe the "voice" of his posts), making it harder to discern alignment. Null read at the moment.

5. NJAC is completely MIA. Potential lurkerscum.

6. Riddle's interest in the game has dwindled down to inquiring as to an alt's main account. Helpful.

7. I don't like the elle/dave/swag interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this three person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

8. I don't like the elle/Ranger interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this two person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

Hello keyboard, I have missed you. <3

IOW: Read wall incoming, and probably other things.

boop

Waiting on Elle's reads and Kaboose's read on Green Crayons.

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:I just really don't agree with a lot of the reasoning you're dropping on elle being scum, even if I've thought she's scummy thus far for other reasons. I want to know if it's just that our thought processes for scumhunting are very different or if you're forcing your reasoning, because I keep getting feelings that it's more likely to be the latter. The nitpickiness of #375 bugs me. Attacking stuff like her use of the word "noted" feels like such a stretch to me and I don't know why you'd want to pad your posts with something like that. Like, I just get this bad feeling that you were trying to start an argument to get a townread and now that you've been called on it, you're backtracking and saying the argument was for the purpose of trying to sort elle. Maybe you could make that argument for 1-2 of your posts, but you'd already concluded that elle was scum as of like.. your second response to her. What's the point in pushing the argument further if it was mainly to try and read her? To me it looks like you're just throwing up an evergrowing wallwar against elle which most people are eventually going to give up on trying to read. If you think she's scum, is that really the best way to convince people that she's scum?

The reason I find the "noted" scummy is because of the dismissive tone it conveys as if to say "I'm winning this argument and I've proved that your points are weaker than mine." The word by itself isn't scummy. I used it to describe the vibe that Elle giving. This is part of what I call gut reads. I believe that you believe that I'm nitpicking though. My only concern with you is you are being a bit vague with your argument and I somehow feel it is more difficult to get you to understand a point than it normally should be while interacting with another human being. No, I did not backtrack on my suspicion of Elle. She is still my biggest suspect. Starting arguments doesn't usually get people townread and if I were scum, there are plenty of other tactics I could have used to get townreads over starting an argument. I did not "start an argument" with Elle in order to read Elle. You are conflating the entire interaction. In fact, I specifically said that nothing that I've posted so far was a lie or something I don't believe in. You are focusing on the wrong parts of the argument and missing the main thrust of my case.

↑ Whatisswag wrote:The way that lone ranger only comments on Elle's most recent posts and ignores the rest looks like a POSSIBLE scum bussing scum. Town would have a wider view. But it could be possible that she just does not want to include the earlier posts. Even if I die, I dont believe Elle versus lone ranger are of the same alignment.

I can't follow your position here at all. Town doesn't know who other town are so would react the same way regardless of the other's alignment. Have you been in a game where scum bussed or town got into TvT arguments? If so, link that game. At this point, I'm worried you are scum with Elle and sensing her impending lynch are trying to cut down on the number of townies who would be cleared by her scumflip. I have not ignored any other part of the game and bussing is an unnatural conclusion to draw from the argument between me and Elle.

AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there.

↑ awesomeusername wrote:

Kaboose's case on elle make sense, I do think she is uncomfortably self-aware in general. I can see where Cheetory's coming from, too, saying she jumps on easy things.

I feel pretty "meh" about elle though.

Like, she certainly could be scum and I'd be up for an elle lynch if nothing else jumps at me,

but it's not really clicking for me.

↑ awesomeusername wrote:

Re: the Ranger/elle debate, I really, really like Cheetory's remarks. The whole "forcing an argument" thing does make the argument feel like an attempt to get townreads.

Could just be the power of suggestion though. I found myself nodding along with Ranger more often than with elle - mostly because elle seemed unnecessarily hostile and posturing. Lines like "Do you typically like to wait until deadline to lynch - or just as scum?" (377) make me wonder why elle waited until 395 to vote, too.

It struck me that elle acted differently towards Ranger than I remember her acting towards other people, almost immediately. It looks like her voting history goes swag -> awesome -> swag -> Ranger (which is fewer people than I expected and doesn't support Cheetory's argument that she attacked lots of easy targets), and I know several people have voted her, but I didn't remember elle bristling like this before. I can see a few similar moments in her ISO, though. I need to meta elle to figure out whether this is just playstyle.

@elle: Is my understanding correct that you're scumreading Ranger for 1) not revealing the reasons for her reads and 2) bringing a bad attack on you?

@swag: Why do you think elle and Ranger are the same alignment?

dave's jump onto the elle wagon pinged for me at first but looking back his trajectory on elle seems fine.

The amount of hedging in this post. I've used red and green to highlight it is highly unlikely to come from town. This entire wall is completely meaningless except to say that Elle might be scum but Elle might be town and Ranger might be scum but ranger might be town. Oh, and Cheetory's remarks are good! Town doesn't talk like this. Town may be uncertain, may be unsure, may be confused by a back-and-forth debate even. But not this. It is meaningless nonsense.

I'm fully willing to admit that I did inflate that you did it entirely to try and read her, but you did say this before:

Lone Ranger wrote:I was partly "forcing an argument."

So I don't really understand why you're being so defensive on me being confused when you say stuff about nothing about your play being artificial in nature?

Lone Ranger wrote:Starting arguments doesn't usually get people townread

TVT rage is a common towntell and I've abused it as scum before.

Lone Ranger wrote:No, I did not backtrack on my suspicion of Elle.

It's more that it felt like you may have been backtracking your reasoning for some weird interactions with elle when you first entered the game.

Lone Ranger wrote:My only concern with you is you are being a bit vague with your argument and I somehow feel it is more difficult to get you to understand a point than it normally should be while interacting with another human being.

I'm trying to pick apart your intentions because I got weird vibes off your first few posts. Yes, I do tend to focus on smaller details longer than most people do, but that's more my MO in general. Plus, I thought it would be more productive to try and focus on why you were doing what you were doing rather than letting a wallwar escalate to useless proportions.

↑ Whatisswag wrote:I cannot really seem town pushing hard on scum and scum also pushing hard back.

Why exactly do you feel that scum will not push back on town?

↑ Green Crayons wrote:Finished the reread.

1. I feel less suspicious about Corpses's interaction with swag after my reread.

2. Grib's posting looks like solid town. He's catching things and articulating ideas that I am having upon reading the thread. Suggests that we're approaching the game from the same alignment mindset.

3. To a lesser extent, I get town vibes from awesome's and Kaboose's postings. Fairies is still a lean town read (don't know if I ever made that explicit from my earlier review of her play).

4. Cheetory's posts come from a much more mechanical stand point (if that makes any sense, I'm not sure it does; but it's the best way I can describe the "voice" of his posts), making it harder to discern alignment. Null read at the moment.

5. NJAC is completely MIA. Potential lurkerscum.

6. Riddle's interest in the game has dwindled down to inquiring as to an alt's main account. Helpful.

7. I don't like the elle/dave/swag interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this three person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

8. I don't like the elle/Ranger interaction. There's something about each player in the context of this two person back and forth that strikes me as suspicious. Will go into more detail later after I tease out my thoughts a bit more.

So this is really interesting, as I'm having extremely similar thoughts. The only thing I really want further explained is why your read of Corpses changed?

I feel the same way about 2 , 3, 5, 7, and 8. I liked Cheetory6's questions to Lone Ranger enough to townslot him.

Also, opinions on whether or not elle had a minor scumslip in 274? Anyone can answer, except maybe elle.

↑ elleheathen wrote:What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Implying davesaz is town regardless of her own alignment.

Cheetory, by forcing an argument, I meant arguing when it might have been better to look elsewhere and defuse it to see what others think which is what I would have normally done. I thought Elle's questioning of me was scummy so I started engaging her to see how she would respond. I wanted to see if she would push me in a scummy way or a townish way. I felt the former based her response. I didn't at any point lie about my suspicion. I didn't make up points against her as some sort of "reaction test" so I could go "aha, this was a test all along and you fell into this trap" which is the implication I've been getting from your posts. I expressed what I felt to see how she would respond when I normally would not have been so specific or aggressive.

I tend to see a reaction test as being less "Gotcha bitch!" and more "I will do this thing to see what this user specifically does". I can understand where you might get that connotation from though because that's probably the more standard definition here on mafia scum.

Gonna do a brief metadive on awesome and then reread his ISO.