New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[mhsmith0]

also

I mean, yes, there are times when someone does something that actually is scummy, or contradicts themselves, and then when you question them about it they don't have a good answer. and in that scenario, yes, you have every right to continue questioning over them.

the difference here is that there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that is contradictory about how I've acted this game. and this is why I fucking hate the way you're interacting with me on a personal level - you don't actually try to think and understand at all, you just say "oh, I've tried to understand and I still don't. that must mean you're scum!".

if you've "tried to understand" and you haven't, then no, it doesn't make me scum, it means you just haven't fucking thought hard enough to actually understand my play.

for the record I don't even know if I believe you're scum for this anymore. at this point, I continue to comment on it because the way you're treating me is straight up pissing me off.

which similarly dovetail into "stuff that seems more natural for frustrated town than scum that are faking it" as well as "that's pretty obnoxious if that's scum just faking it"

[mhsmith0]

I'll also agree Jester's also been really useless (and doesn't get the cerberus patented "I'm gonna be super useless intentionally this game just so maybe I won't absorb the night kill" excuse) so I guess
VOTE: jester
though I'll listen on parama too (but I think HS has been more town than MDS and more useful, so I kinda would rather get rid of the jester set first i guess)

[mhsmith0]

sad is scum part 1:

See the thing is, being "townie" or "town-looking" is just NOT good enough. The wincon isn't "go look townie" it's "find scum". So far:

MDS has no scumreads
You have no scumreads
Shadow has NO reads
Dunn has NO reads
Maria has NO reads
Vedith has 1 read
Parama has 1 read
Cerb has done nothing
mhsmith has done nothing (except discuss setup early on ~so~ helpful wow)
Gamma has ????????? reads
Kagami has ????????? reads

Me and inspector have discussed more reads than I feel has been discussed in 70 pages of this thread.

Imagine the deadline was only 8 days for all of Day 1 like the other games. Seriously imagine that.

this was the first thing that really bothered me. it's just this disgusting mass discredit of practically everyone in the game.

and does sad really believe this? it doesn't sound like it, it looks like he's just making this entire post to buddy inspector some more while throwing shade at everyone. if he was reading the thread at all he'd know this is outright false

Did I really believe it; Yes.

There your case is gone.

That seems like a non-indicative lie, more like something that's exaggerated because he was pissy as opposed to a wolfy lie. Why is that scum-indicative beyond a relatively lazy ("it wasn't accurate therefore scum" take)?

[mhsmith0]

the "non-indicative lie" being SAD's original 1721 in case that wasn't obvious btw

[mhsmith0]

That seems like a non-indicative lie, more like something that's exaggerated because he was pissy as opposed to a wolfy lie. Why is that scum-indicative beyond a relatively lazy ("it wasn't accurate therefore scum" take)?

"Nobody else is scumhunting, but -I- am."

which comes across more as "fuck you assholes for being lazy" than "give me town credit for my work" to me. Why do you think it's the latter more than the former?

[mhsmith0]

Basically your explaination is 'i was emotional, i took a step back and saw the light again'

In what way is that a probable truth that i should believe right away? Its not a solid reason other than 'i was playing bad/emotionally', and I think your progression was scummy, regardless of emotion. I dont think thats inhuman for me to say.

If she was a wolf, she couldn't have believed I was a wolf, emotionally or otherwise. So if she's a wolf, the emotion she displayed was either over the top OMGUS (anger at suspicion directed at her), or it was just fake. Why do you think either explanation fits her actions particularly well?

[mhsmith0]

uncomfortable with how the wagon is running up on jester/mds and neither of them have even posted yet, like sheesh guys chill

Maj is six votes, jester has three by my count (pie, kagami, me). Do you think it's likely that scum are going to gangpile him if he's town (presuming that all current voters on him are also town)?

[mhsmith0]

Have you played with Cerb before? He's as asset to town if he is town.

I will say that this was pretty funny in hindsight btw.

[mhsmith0]

Okay im wrong


Mdsis scum

why do you thin kthat's a scum post? It seemed relatively null on first glance; like, it's possible she's scum trying to protect her lover, but I don't think it seemed especially clear that this was actually happening? What in that prompted the quick turnaround?

[mhsmith0]

Yes (unless scout is correct and you're scum)

[mhsmith0]

If you're scum you should bail, if you're town (and think your partner is also town) you should fight. there's little more selfish than a "selfless" suicide in this kind of situation.

[mhsmith0]

@mhsmith/pieguy did you guys discuss things overnight?

not really. the most substantive discussion we had over the night phase was mhsmith hoping we'd die and us agreeing that Cv666's strategy was stupid.

I'd also started talking about out previous back and forth, but pie shut that down pretty quickly by making it clear she didn't want to talk about it. That was another one of those "I think it was realtively villagery of her and it was pretty obnoxious if she was scum" instances.

PS We also talked about you dunn, though not at length. She stated a TR on you based on the way you talked about me underestimating you, I was pretty skeptical that was actually town-indicative.

[mhsmith0]

Okay im wrong


Mdsis scum

why do you thin kthat's a scum post? It seemed relatively null on first glance; like, it's possible she's scum trying to protect her lover, but I don't think it seemed especially clear that this was actually happening? What in that prompted the quick turnaround?

Again awkward posting by mhsmith.

Explain? That seemed like a perfectly reasonable question to ask (it seemed like you were AI-reading something null); what was awkward about it?

[mhsmith0]

Who cares if I fight. Most of the village thinks Jester is the scum. It's pointless. It's better to leave now than be lynched at LYLO and lose the game.

no, it's better to fight it and force a lynch to actually happen rather than being passive and surrender-y. If you're a mislynch, then the manner in which the lynch happens is useful for the town.

Remember the first suicide? Remember when vedith gamethrew there? And shadow-maria was also a town-town wagon?

Imagine a situation where vedith actually pushed back against the mislynch and forced it to actually happen through the lynch. Knowing now that the two wagons were all town, that would potentially throw what happened into sharp relief: who had a strong prference for one or the other, who got cold feet as the lynch got close, who was just kinda coasting along while town was fightint town, etc.

That's the kind of data you actually need to figure out who is town and who is scum. instead vedith make himself the game's jackass by surrendering and totally screwed us over. Don't be like vedith.

[mhsmith0]

'Its possible that shes scum protecting her lover but here she might not be doing it' is a perfect example of not taking a stance in a discussion that can go either way.
The whole post's tone is bad, i hope you can see that

"Hey scout I think this was null and you just argued that it was alignment-indicative; justify why you thought it was alignment-indicative". The point I was making was clear; now that I'm asking it for the THIRD TIME how about actually answering the question instead of going "gee that was a bad post by smith".

[mhsmith0]

Saying you want to lynch a bunch of other people before your pair doesn't exactly inspire confidence. I thought you wanted to lynch Shadow because you wanted to discuss with Kagami? There seems to be a mutual lack of that

for one, Kagami has already commented on my reads and said we were mostly on the same page.

we don't seem to strongly disagree on anyone besides HS, and we seem to agree on Parama regardless, so... /shrug

don't really know what your point here is

Actually...

@pie: what do you think of kagami just doing a quick "I agree with pie with a small difference on HS, I vote jester" pop-in? Is that level of post about what you normally would expect from her at this point?

[mhsmith0]

Looks like you're making up reasons to lynch other people without outright defending mhsmith (which you can't really do if you're scum and he's town since his scumminess levels were way up there)

I honestly don't know how you can actually think "his scumminess levels were way up there"; I remain skeptical that town!you is THAT bad at reading me.

[mhsmith0]

'Its possible that shes scum protecting her lover but here she might not be doing it' is a perfect example of not taking a stance in a discussion that can go either way.
The whole post's tone is bad, i hope you can see that

"Hey scout I think this was null and you just argued that it was alignment-indicative; justify why you thought it was alignment-indicative". The point I was making was clear; now that I'm asking it for the THIRD TIME how about actually answering the question instead of going "gee that was a bad post by smith".

Hey IS, should i just spam post this or what?

[mhsmith0]

But I answered the question? You even quoted it? You didn't take any stance and suggested stuff that isnt even useful.

Its like dunn as scum in hunger games said 'this nightkill points to x being scum but wifom so lol'
Its scummy because you are mentioning the events rather than discussing them.

Hey scout I think this POST BY MDS was null and you just argued that THE POST BY MDS was alignment-indicative; justify why you thought it was alignment-indicative

[mhsmith0]

Statistically speaking, scum was definitely on the wagon. This is awkward useless filler
'Id love to say x is scum but i dont want to point fingers so dont hold me accountable, lol'
Where is the town in that?

Like this is the closest you came to making a case that it was indicative, and even that was weak. But suddenly it was enough to flip your opinion on her?

[mhsmith0]

Looks like you're making up reasons to lynch other people without outright defending mhsmith (which you can't really do if you're scum and he's town since his scumminess levels were way up there)

I honestly don't know how you can actually think "his scumminess levels were way up there"; I remain skeptical that town!you is THAT bad at reading me.

How many people townread you during day 1?

Are you seriously deflecting onto popular opinion? With "Well those other people didn't think you were really towny". I remain skeptical that YOU, the person in the game with the most experience playing with me, would be that bad at reading me, especially after your participation in the shit wagon on me in our last game together.

[mhsmith0]

Statistically speaking, scum was definitely on the wagon. This is awkward useless filler
'Id love to say x is scum but i dont want to point fingers so dont hold me accountable, lol'
Where is the town in that?

Like this is the closest you came to making a case that it was indicative, and even that was weak. But suddenly it was enough to flip your opinion on her?

[mhsmith0]

So everyone else has the possibility of being scum apart from you and jester, but its up to us to figure it out? Hell no.

^and that part isn't even you making a "she's scum" case, it's essentially just a "fuck you" bit.

[mhsmith0]

I think i said the whole post sounded fake.
Also, surprise: i scumread mds the whole game. Ask her. I didnt flip because of 1 post, i just had more trust in it. I do think her frustration afterwards is genuine, tjough.

Do you scumread me? Dont you have any patience? Do you feel the need to vote me?

If I felt the need to vote you I'd be voting. You're much more of a null for me rn, and I feel like other flips would be more hepful in terms of evaluating you.

[mhsmith0]

@MDS: Since you're relatively new, I'll just note this: when wagons start getting big, and majority starts getting close, that's when shit starts getting real, and you really see what people think. That's why you don't ever suicide pre-LYLO in a game like this.

[mhsmith0]

I think we've had more than enough interactions for you to sort me. If pie isn't satisfied with my reads because they are based on agression and careless posting, why should you have a null-read on a rather active poster who has had multiple interactions with you and with others without her making a problem over it?

Isnt that cherrypicking from her side? When dunn calls her out on that, she throws out a scumread on him. Is that townie?

You think I should be thinking you're obv!town? In a game where we've had zero scum flips? There have been certain things you've done that make me think BS (the seeming scum-hunting of the IC from way before, the seeming reachy read of MDS's post just now, I think something else I forgot), but I've alos generally gotten a town sense from you, so overall it reads null, especially without any red flips to make associative reads on.

As I'd said before, I'm town-reading pie because of the manner in which she handled my push on her, both in the thread and the PT. I think the way in which her whole demeanor was "how dare you suspect me for this" with essentially zero effort towards making any kind of peace for a substantial amount of time is more consistent with "aggrieved townie" than "scum pretending to be aggrieved townie" especially given her generally non-emotional scum play (if someone wants to feed me an example or two of her doing differently as scum I might listen though), and as I siad, I think the sheer obnoxiousness of it (since if she's scum, it's unquestionably obnoxious) makes me skeptical she'd even want to play like that.

I will say I'm curious where the dunn-pie back and forth goes, and am willing to potentially reconsider my stance if I see good evidence to do so. But I'm certainly not there at this point in time.

[mhsmith0]

"Deflecting"

Think this through with me. If pieguy is scum, and you're town, the amount of people townreading you is 0. If pieguy comes in and "townreads" you she looks bad.

Good chance you're just scum as well though. The way you keep bringing up a past game isn't helping.

HS was pretty hard town-reading me, for starters. IIRC SAD was null-scum on me, though you'd have to ask him to be sure. And I think general board opinion was that I wasn't nearly scummy enough to particularly strongly want wagoned (see Maria's back-down, and I think that the brief time I was at 4 votes was the peak).

But yes, the idea that scum!pie can't just town-read me is a reasonable one. My read comes not from the simple fact that she acted like she suspected me, but rather the manner in which things went down. "I suspect smith" is easy to fake, but the whole back and forth? I feel like that's harder. So if you want me to roll with your read that it was fake, you need to actually demonstrate what looks fake about it, rather than just "well it's possible it was fake since she'd have an incentive to fake suspicion there".

[mhsmith0]

I will say I'm curious where the dunn-pie back and forth goes, and am willing to potentially reconsider my stance if I see good evidence to do so. But I'm certainly not there at this point in time.

What compelled you to say this out loud?

You understand how this could change the course of events, right?

Huh? How could "I'm not there at this time, but am willing to see where it goes" materially change the course of events?

[mhsmith0]

I will say I'm curious where the dunn-pie back and forth goes, and am willing to potentially reconsider my stance if I see good evidence to do so. But I'm certainly not there at this point in time.

What compelled you to say this out loud?

You understand how this could change the course of events, right?

Huh? How could "I'm not there at this time, but am willing to see where it goes" materially change the course of events?

Curious that you changed what you actually said, even if the meaning is similar.

If you're thinking one of us is scum (as you said you did) why do you try to almost influence things/posture like that?

So your issue with what I said is that I didn't really agree w you, and that was somehow going to materially influence things?

I mean, I guess i can see your point about my having responded to the wrong thing, but I still don't see how the (unedited) part had the potential to make a meaningful influence. Like, how exactly does it substantially change anything for me to be expressing a currently skeptical viewpoint?

You were acting like it was important, but I don't understand how it could have been.

[mhsmith0]

"But I'm certainly not there at this point in time." Wasn't my own thoughts? Especially on the back of my already stated town!pie reasoning?

[mhsmith0]

like the thing with this is neither Dunn _or_ Parama feel worried to me at all.

I might just be reading too much into it, but if Jester is town, scum would know that I'd likely lose most of my credibility after his flip.

@mds

I want you to look at what just happened. Lynch gets close, people start talking, someone gets cold feet. I don't know if pie is scum or town for it, but this is why you don't suicide. Stuff can happen. Nothing is inevitable. Remember this in future games, regardless of alignment.

[mhsmith0]

"But I'm certainly not there at this point in time." Wasn't my own thoughts? Especially on the back of my already stated town!pie reasoning?

Your "thought" was that you didn't have an opinion at the moment

Not really the point I was getting at either

Then explain your point better.

[mhsmith0]

"It could have influenced the way I acted"

Seems pretty careless of a thing for you to say as town. It reads more as posturing to show other people you're considering something.

You wouldn't say "if scum kill me, x is town" unless you were wifoming, would you?

1) I don't think i ever said "It could have influenced the way I acted"?
2) I still don't actually understand your point. What exactly did I say that was careless, and why did you interpret it as posturing? Like, 3944 expliitcly stated why I was TRing pie, and then basically noted that I'm keeping an eye on pie v dunn to see how it developed. i don't understand at all how that was careless or posturing. So since you seem to think it was, you should explain why you think it.

[mhsmith0]

She has posts of her own as well*

today she has one post in thread

[mhsmith0]

Saying you want to lynch a bunch of other people before your pair doesn't exactly inspire confidence. I thought you wanted to lynch Shadow because you wanted to discuss with Kagami? There seems to be a mutual lack of that

for one, Kagami has already commented on my reads and said we were mostly on the same page.

we don't seem to strongly disagree on anyone besides HS, and we seem to agree on Parama regardless, so... /shrug

don't really know what your point here is

Actually...

@pie: what do you think of kagami just doing a quick "I agree with pie with a small difference on HS, I vote jester" pop-in? Is that level of post about what you normally would expect from her at this point?

Btw this was pretty much what I was arguing and she (pieguy) brushed it off by saying they talked about it or something

Well, yes, the "brush off" was in the quote block. I'm curious about how this compares to how she'd expect kagami to normally act.

PS You seem to be mainly arguing a different point since before this you hadn't followed up on this specific issue? Or am I misreading you?

[mhsmith0]

She has posts of her own as well*

today she has one post in thread

and ~170 of them in our pt

really? did she have a particular reason to just be in pt and not main thread?

[mhsmith0]

Alright. Why should people be town reading you at this point in the game?
After all, isn't "aggression" and "posting whatever is on their mind" your game so far?


Follow-up question: Who's townreading you, and what's your opinion on them

Do you think she's been trying to get town-read off of those particular ideas? Do you think people are town reading her specifically for that reason? It sounds like you think that this is the case, but I know that wasn't why I was town-reading her, and I don't recall that being offered up as an explanation otherwise? if I'm incorrect, could you point me to where that happened? And if you're incorrect, then why does the rest of the questioning make sense, since it seems to be predicated on a (I think) false premise?

[mhsmith0]

Do you think she's been trying to get town-read off of those particular ideas? Do you think people are town reading her specifically for that reason?

No.

By her own logic, aggressiveness and posting what you feel aren't reasons to be townreading someone

Yet what has she done? Besides be aggressive and post what they feel? Don't misunderstand me: I'm not pushing on pieguy in that post.

If she's town, she seriously needs to look at the people townreading her for no reason because there's probably scum

Why? That logic makes perfect sense if I was a solid scum-read for her, but since that isn't currently the case, why does it make sense from her POV that scum would be OK with our pair not getting pressure? Barring the existence of a scum-scum pair (possible but I'd think unlikely - IIRC that hasn't happened yet in fakegod's format, and I think it's a super risky play when scum keep winning under normal conditions), scum need to mislynch every single surviving town-town pair in order to win. So in a world where she thinks I'm town (or is at worst null on me), then wouldn't it make more logical sense to be suspicious of people scum-reading her without substantiation, as opposed to people doing the same with a town read? What's the incentive for scum to prop up a town-town pair at this stage of the game?

[mhsmith0]

What's the incentive for scum to prop up a town-town pair at this stage of the game?

I don't think you're a town-town pair.

So? Your argument is that PIE, if town, should be questioning the town-reads on her. My point is the only way that logic holds together is if she thinks I'm scum. If she doesn't think that, and if she is town, then why would it make sense for scum to be propping us up? "I don't think you're town/town" doesn't address that point at all.

[mhsmith0]

Need to think about this and reread. Weekend is crazy so far.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: jester-mds

Thought they were L-1 or 2

holy crap kill this with fire

okay yeah
calling it now: MDS/Jester T/T 100%
SAD + Kagami + smith I guess?

Why do you think that was scum!kagami spewing mds/jester town? Like, to me the most sense it makes from scum!her (admitting that it's bizarre as hell under almost any read) is if she's somehow trying to fake-spew them town in a really horrible way. Like, let's say that kagami is scum and mds/jester is a town pair. What in the world is she doing there? Completely losing track of the vote count and super-derping the hammer attempt? Going full wifom?

Also Dunn, this would be a good time to actually talk about the hundreds of posts she's been making in PT, given the flagrant uselessness of her thread presence so far in d2, and her apparent unwillingness to even kind of look like she's contributing.

Ps I'm also wondering if the unvote was because she thought they were l-1/2 as opposed to the revote (I.e. She got nervous about a quickhammer and then revoted when she realized there weren't nearly enough votes for it), although given her (intentional?) lack of clarity on the matter it's hard to any if that's the case, if that's just her faking it, or if I'm totally misreading.

[mhsmith0]

Spew is when someone who's a wolf says things that, after they flip wolf, make it clear what someone else's alignment is. So like a super hard push where it's clear they REALLY want someone dead (bonus points if it's on like day one) would tend to spew someone villager, while really awkward interactions (or just a lack of interactions) suggest teammates.

It seemed like you were calling mds/jester lock town in reaction to kagami post, which I considered odd, since "fake spew someone town" seems like a reasonable enough strategy at this point in the game. Was I misreading you?

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, if Dunn/kagami is v/w in some order, I'm thinking that dunns continued push on me probably makes pie town if he's scum, while kagami being red makes me more suspicious of her (I'm still town reading her really just from her interactions w me, because most of the rest seems NAI and fakeable, unless people think she's incapable of stuff like "being consistent" and "following a plan that she said she wanted to follow" as a wolf.).

[mhsmith0]

Also Dunn, this would be a good time to actually talk about the hundreds of posts she's been making in PT, given the flagrant uselessness of her thread presence so far in d2, and her apparent unwillingness to even kind of look like she's contributing.

I did and got ignored

She has posts of her own as well*

today she has one post in thread

and ~170 of them in our pt

Was your last mention of her contributions to date on d2. I don't think you'd actually said what she'd been saying in PT, just that she actually had been saying stuff.

[mhsmith0]

Has she been saying a lot today in PT? If so, what has she been saying today?

[mhsmith0]

Did she talk about why she isn't talking in thread? It seems a bit odd for her to be substantive in PT but not main thread; is this an availability thing? Something else?

Wrt pie, I kinda think that town!pie means:
Dunn!scum
At least one scum in jester/parama
And nit sure where a third would be if jester/parama is v/w

And wolf!pie probably means:
Kagami!scum
Maybe HS!scum given his hard defense of me day one
And not really sure whether pie!scum makes jester more or less likely scum
And I kinda struggle to see

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith you seem to have completely missed my 1933

you seem to have missed that I was asking what she'd been posting TODDAY since your "170+" comment was in response to my asking what she'd done today in PT, not all game

[mhsmith0]

She has posts of her own as well*

today she has one post in thread

and ~170 of them in our pt

^implies 170 posts TODAY in PT, which I thought was super bizarre given her total lack of thread presence so far today
I'm guessing you meant 170+ overall then? And much less today?

[mhsmith0]

Speaking of false dichotomy stop pushing that pie/dunn thing as a reason to push on me

Your push on me has been hot garbage but I don't think you'd do it if pie was your buddy. Has this not obviously been my position?

[mhsmith0]

Seems you were more concerned with the vote on yourself than the big wall about kagami

Because your push on me sucked and was generally bullshit, and I was concerned with why town!you would actually believe it? Do you ACTUALLY think that putting energy into critically engaging with pushes on me, in a large game that's difficult to follow, is somehow scum-indicative?

[mhsmith0]

Also: at this stage in the game, it is really really bad for scum if a town/town pair is accurately identified, so if pie is town your push on me (and possibly scouts, I need to think on that more) reads like "oh shit we can't let these two get accurately town read"

So pie/Dunn as v/w makes a shit ton of sense wrt the game state, and is in no way seem kind of "false dichotomy" I pulled out of my ass.

[mhsmith0]

I like how you went from "trying to figure kagami out" to ignoring the post about kagami and pushing on me

Is kagami here? Pray tell how

Yeah, we talked for 30 minutes or so when she had time

She thinks Jester-MDS definitely has scum n it
She also agreed with me at the time that HS-Parama probably has scum in it
She commented that everybody wants to lynch us but nobody really wants to lynch us (which I said in thread 1000's of posts ago so I agree there)
Off of that she says either I'm scum or we're being saved for a later lynch
She thinks if I were scum I'd be unlikely to bus in this situation, not expecting to live, and so thinks if I'm scum it's with jester pair and SADboys
I asked about me not being scum and she said in that case scum would be in mhsmith-pieguy for that specific pair
Comments that there's not a lot of support for a Jester wagon
We agree that HS is setting up a weird dichotomy between SAD and Parama (at least HS is the biggest contributor and the strangest)

There's more but that's the gist of our recent exchange

Gives enough substance for me to accurately sort her compared to what she'd done in thread today. None of what you say she said seems flagrantly unreasonable or clearly townie... so how do you expect town!me to react to that? You seem to be saying I should be doing more, but it's super unclear what exactly you would actually expect me to be doing, just "well gee you're not doing more" which is, once again, an intellectually lazy way of engaging me, which is kind of where I've been with you all game, which is (shockingly) also consistent with my v/w read of you and pie.

[mhsmith0]

Yet you're voting jester

And? I think jester has a realistic chance of flipping red, and see no problem with being on his wagon. Is it your opinion that I should be voting for you or pie at this point then? Or are you going somewhere else with this line of reasoning?

[mhsmith0]

I didn't say what you should be doing. I'm saying I start talking about Kagami and you attempt to discredit me.

???
Go through that timing again. Why do you think I was discrediting you as a response to your kagami push?

4124 question on kagami (unanswered btw)
4125 direct response to your post at me
4126 clarifying post
4132 response to your "false dichotomy" bit
4133 response to your accusation
4135 clarifying my position
4137 response to you

How is any of that a "oh shit he's talking about kagami better deflect" bit? You push on me, I push back. That is exactly what happened, somthe idea that it's somehow a weird deflection from kagami discussion is just bizarre.

If your pair and kagami are scum (which is a possibility I'm considering) then Jester pair is the last place I'd lynch

You seem to be considering the same thing but don't seem to care

I'm considering the possibility but don't think pie is scum. So given the logic of "pie!scum probably = jester!town", where I'm not subscribing to the first part, why does my vote not make sense?

[mhsmith0]

Your line of thinking doesn't make sense. Your push on maria/shadow was bad in a way that you were under pressure and voted the next wagon

What actually happened:

I hard pushed pie and had a long back and forth
Then momentum coalesced around jester/mds or shadow/Maria, with momentum shifting towards jester
Then I voted shadow/Maria

You're interpreting it as a survival vote when the momentum wasn't really towards me as an especially likely lynch. Which suggests a lack of thread awareness on your part, or some other theory that you can't be bothered to explain.

You're also not engaging w my voting behavior there other than "well that was next wagon up so it must be survivalistic". What about my vote/push looked survivalistic? "Well it could have been" seems to essentially be where you are, which once again suggests you're being surface-level and lazy in your analysis of me.

[mhsmith0]

So given the logic of "pie!scum probably = jester!town", where I'm not subscribing to the first part, why does my vote not make sense?

You just said you thought I'd be scum if kagami were town

You mean because town!pie fits with scum!you and scum!pie with scum!kagami or more than that?

[mhsmith0]

And? I could say the same thing about parama/sad (decent odds of a scum between them), and the same "why aren't you voting one of them" logic would apply, would it not?

I suppose you can make the case that there seems to be a stronger likelihood wrt pie v you (with a realistic outcome of kagami flipping red if you're town), although by the same logic, why aren't you voting for me/pie or kagami?

Ps I actually agree w the idea of jester being force replaced at this point
Am willing to UNVOTE: pending that resolution.

[mhsmith0]

And? I could say the same thing about parama/sad (decent odds of a scum between them), and the same "why aren't you voting one of them" logic would apply, would it not?

No, because I'm voting HS/Parama.

I meant that in the "applying to me" sense btw.

[mhsmith0]

why aren't you voting for me/pie or kagami?

I'm not sure on Kagami. That's why I'm trying to get discussion going instead of getting into a slapfight

I'm willing to vote for you/pieguy as well. I think I'd rather get HS/Parama today because I'm decently sure of scum in there and seeing "which one flips scum" is pretty important

I'd be super surprised to see HS flip scum, but if that happens, I'd say pies scum equity goes a lot higher. Will think on parama.

[mhsmith0]

I'd be super surprised to see HS flip scum, but if that happens, I'd say pies scum equity goes a lot higher. Will think on parama.

[mhsmith0]

what does that post even mean

But



Okay then.

LYNCH PIESMITH

I'm bad at mafia so I'm allowed to do this. This is also exactly how the shadow lynch went.

what does that post even mean

If he's town, it means he doesn't mind being intellectually lazy with his push on me.
If he's scum, it means he's happy to continue being intellectually lazy since he's being collectively town-read anyway.

[mhsmith0]

>potentially
i don't see much reason for scumParama to post that unless SAD and Kagami are both scum, can you see a motivation there that i missed? if so, please share

Why can't scum!parama include 2 town-townpairs and 1 scum-townpair? What on earth makes you think that those are scum if parama is scum, but not mhsmith? If you believe she's double bussing, why can't she have just bussed mhsmith until now?

I am definitely not seeing your reasoning here. At the very least it's not sane.

HS has repeatedly (and pretty clearly) stated the reasoning for TR'ing me. The logic here seems to be consistent with that reasoning. "At the very least it's not sane" implies an exceptionally bad set of reasoning, which is interesting since you don't seem to be motivated to explain why it's terrible other than "well I think smith is scum".

Moreover,

that post looks towny as fuck to me. on the other hand, i was pushing kagami pretty hard for that, and i don't think anybody can argue that kagami's posts there were scummy as fuck. so it might be another attempt to pocket my by sharing my reads.

as town: parama is trying to solve the game, reads mds/jester as T/T and is legitimately unsure on smith's role.
as scum: parama is trying to potentially double-bus the scumteam for towncred and throws smith in there as the final mislynch plan. this is really fucking risky because at this point i'm still unsure on his slot and he knows this, so i could suicide if his bus lynches go through even if he gets insane towncred for it.
parama reads as a very logical and calculating player regardless of alignment, i don't think number 2 really makes any sense at all.

that's my thoughts on that post in particular.

represents an attempt to actually think through what parama might be doing as scum and why, which to me seems entirely reasonable. Why don't you clarify what's terrible about it (without relying on "well smith is scum therefore this must be terrible") if you feel that strongly?

[mhsmith0]

Also, I don't mind being scumread; I'm very often scumread, and I'm better at analysing attacks on me; now nobody is interested in that. If I can be honest it kind of feels really wrong to be townread while other people are sumcread for the same thing, yet another reason why I think pie!scum is a thing.

Well unless you think pie and I are both scum and our entire back and forth was theater (which would imply a level of acting ability that I've never displayed before in a mafia game ever), pie!scum means that I'm town, and you're not exactly someone I'm taking all that seriously after your push on me. Like, you get that, right? So if your current theory is that I'm wrong and pie is scum, you're going to actually have to put substantive effort into clarifying why that is the case and pushing that read, because right now I'm comfortable thinking pie is likely town and you're either scum or really bad town, and in either case I'm going to have precisely zero incentive to sheep you (and I'd think that ought to hold true for most people). So if you're town, start to put actual thought into what you're doing. or be satistfied just using signguy tags and hoping that people will eventually randomly sheep you.

[mhsmith0]

Because it is not representative at all. Again, this is not based on my scumread on you, it's based on how parama would think as scum, yet HS mixes in her own reads.

How exactly do you think parama would think as scum in that spot? What about HS mixing in her own reads is unreasonable at that spot?

[mhsmith0]

Why can't scum!parama include 2 town-townpairs and 1 scum-townpair? What on earth makes you think that those are scum if parama is scum, but not mhsmith? If you believe she's double bussing, why can't she have just bussed mhsmith until now?

I am definitely not seeing your reasoning here. At the very least it's not sane.

Like, this doesn't really get at a specific read of what parama might be doing and why she might be doing it as scum, it's just a "well why might not parama be doing this other thing". You criticize HS for building her own reads into her analysis of what scum!parama might be doing, but you're doing the exact same thing wrt me, since there's no substance here for what exactly you expect scum!parama to be doing wrt me, just a repeat of your scumread of me rolled into your discussion of scum!parama.

[mhsmith0]

Because it is not representative at all. Again, this is not based on my scumread on you, it's based on how parama would think as scum, yet HS mixes in her own reads.

How exactly do you think parama would think as scum in that spot? What about HS mixing in her own reads is unreasonable at that spot?

I am not going to attempt at thinking how scum!parama busses/whiteknights/whatever BECAUSE I DONT KNOW WHO IS SCUM/TOWN

Sure, have fun doing so when you have a scumflip, but in what way does her reasoning make sense? Let's say kagami flips town
Bam.
Whole post useless.
It's empty, useless reasoning. Based on her reads? Yeah, because those are infallible. There is no progress in this game by saying it, looking active vs doing shit, you know the drill. Be honest, what did her making this post advance the gamestate/gave you a read on parama?

Except it's NOT empty, useless posting. It's considering what parama might be doing as scum, and what might be driving that post, and what that might mean about others. Let's say parama flips scum and kagami town. Then that means that the read was WRONG. What makes that read more wrong, and more useless, than the various other stuff floating around the game so far?

[mhsmith0]

I'm starting to do some work w VCA and a re-skim of the game thread, probably won't have a lot done until sometime tomorrow but we'll see how much energy I have tonight.

[mhsmith0]

First point:

That's not a slip btw

Bad time to start pushing this wagon, bad reason too

^this was dunn to scout when the wagons were 5/4/4 (shadow-maria at 5), and there was momentum gathering in the Jester-MDS direction (three of the previous four votes had been on jester-mds, the Gamma-Vedith wagon hadn't added votes for quite some time, and shadow-maria wasn't really moving quickly)

then followed by

UNVOTE:

relatively bad look if Jester-MDS has a wolf in it. I probably need to look at Dunn's overall shift there more carefully, but that could relatively easily have been a distancing vote (he was first on jester-mds) that he then bailed on once it got a bit dangerous

[mhsmith0]

also really like 1038 solely for putting Jester right in the null pile. that makes me feel better about MDS in general. she could easily find some excuse to townlean him if she wanted.

So this also came at a point where MDS-Jester was at least a consideration (though after Dunn bailed and SAD voted shadow it was much lower moentum-wise).

Why did you think that dumping Jester in the null pile was meaningfully town-indicative? If the Jester-MDS pair was under public suspicion (and it was), then just openly town-reading him without substance would look suspicious in its own right from MDS (and presumably if she was scum at least one partner would be likely to have pointed it out). Am I missing something? Or was this actually just a null moment from her?

[mhsmith0]

1) You were talking to HS, not scout, I'd typod.

2) You don't think jester-MDS is a pair with a wolf in it, right? So why do you care about the scenario where a red flip in there might make you look bad?

[mhsmith0]

Sure, you've given reasons for HS-Parama, but your push against a jester-mds lynch suggests that you have at least something of a town read there, even if it's indirect via game state read, who's pushing them etc. Like, if you thought there was very likely scum in there, then you wouldn't be pushing agianst it with much energy and would consider it a pretty reasonable alternative.

So essentially, you're communicating that you think that, at the very least, there is a pretty meaningful chance that they're town-town. And yet you are (it seems) accusing me of trying to shovel dirt on you, when that commentary would only even apply in the event that their pair has at least one wolf in it. So I guess the question is, since you think there's a pretty solid chance they're town/town, why are you even bothered by a potential association there?

[mhsmith0]

That's not a slip btw

Bad time to start pushing this wagon, bad reason too

^ at a relatively important point, you commented not just that the "slip" argument was a bad reason to hop on the wagon (which is a fair point), but that it was a "bad time to start pushing this wagon", which is in fact a pretty meaningful commentary at a fairly important point (another vote or two on jester-mds would have made it a very difficult wagon to derail). So you doubtcast the wagon and hopped off at a high leverage situation, and you take issue with my pointing out the connection due to

1) my (utterly meaningless) mistake in saying it was scout instead of HS you were responding to
2) you saying that you weren't defending them when "bad time to start pushing this wagon" is very clearly defending them, and not just for the "slip" bit

This... does not make me less suspicious of you in the case that there's a red flip in jester-mds.

PS Since you cite MDS's kagami discussion, what post or posts in particular made you feel a lot better about her? Was it just that she'd expressed some suspicion? These two posts? Something else?

Why do you think Kagami is scum?

Cloning your reads. Copying the case Shadow without much original input from herself. Staying under the radar.

If Shadow's scum she could be town though.

Why do you think she's town if shadow is scum? (and if shadow is town, why is kagami scum)

I saw the shadow read as more opportunism rather than bussing. Plus I don't think she'd gain much from bussing this early.

[mhsmith0]

@Parama: Sorry about being stupid earlier. I wasn't going to let Jester get away with it for long, I just really really wanted to play with him for a while. I actually think he's town now though. He made some really good posts in our PT and supported my decision to quit the dance if I thought it was the right thing to do.

Also, this would be MDS "finding some excuse to townread jester", right? Given that you said this would potentially be a point of suspicion on her, why didn't you follow up? Was it just because you were away from thread for a while? Or did something else ping you sufficiently town about her that you didn't think it was a worthwhile issue to bring up?

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: Gamma

This flip provides most info right now.

Townslip

People have linked Mini to scum!Gamma based on their interactions, Vedith just warned her of becoming the next target if Gamma flips scum. There's no interest for her to do what she did, assuming she's Gamma's partner. And since Mini's been scumread based mostly on that pre-flip association, she's clean.

I used such an absolute term on purpose to see her reaction in our pt and her being complitely oblivious to the fact of being widely linked to Gamma makes feel good about her.

She questioned me about my assesment and stated she thought only Vedith saw her as Gamma's partner.

I'd actually forgotten about this segment, and that was a relatively good look. Does anyone here know jester particularly well? Does scum!jester ever try that sort of stunt?

[mhsmith0]

@Parama: Sorry about being stupid earlier. I wasn't going to let Jester get away with it for long, I just really really wanted to play with him for a while. I actually think he's town now though. He made some really good posts in our PT and supported my decision to quit the dance if I thought it was the right thing to do.

Also, this would be MDS "finding some excuse to townread jester", right? Given that you said this would potentially be a point of suspicion on her, why didn't you follow up? Was it just because you were away from thread for a while? Or did something else ping you sufficiently town about her that you didn't think it was a worthwhile issue to bring up?

I responded to what was directed at me, and not to what was clearly meant for someone else to answer.

This post was directed at parama, who'd explicitly talked about 'finding some excuse to townread jester" as a potential suspicion point for MDS.

[mhsmith0]

See

also really like 1038 solely for putting Jester right in the null pile. that makes me feel better about MDS in general. she could easily find some excuse to townlean him if she wanted.

So this also came at a point where MDS-Jester was at least a consideration (though after Dunn bailed and SAD voted shadow it was much lower moentum-wise).

Why did you think that dumping Jester in the null pile was meaningfully town-indicative? If the Jester-MDS pair was under public suspicion (and it was), then just openly town-reading him without substance would look suspicious in its own right from MDS (and presumably if she was scum at least one partner would be likely to have pointed it out). Am I missing something? Or was this actually just a null moment from her?

[mhsmith0]

Note that I continue talking to her. And said we weren't in a rush to lynch someone else as I was figuring things out.

The point is, at a meaningful leverage point, you doubtcast it and unvoted, cutting the legs out of its potential momentum. This suggests, to me, that your alignment is likely tied in with that pair's, since if all three wagons were town, then scum!you doesn't really have much incentive to bail on the wagon, while if the jester/mds pair had a wolf in it, then scum!you has a great incentive to seize on "that's not a slip" to try and derail the wagon and change the conversation in a way that isn't really all that likely to grab a large amount of attention. You can nitpick at it, but it's absolutely true that if jester-mds was a scum wagon you derailed it at an fairly important point in time, and "dunn drops a distancing vote and then bails when it actually gathers some momentum" is clearly a plausible explanation for what happened.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: gamma

Kagami, what made you vote Gamma at this point? Was it his overall flail? His vote on HS-Parama? Something else? This was (before Vedith's fuckup) potentially a pretty important vote, as it made Gamma/Vedith a 5-vote wagon and put them in the lead, and (had Vedith not epically fucked up) probably would have made it much more difficult to swing the wagon outside of shadow/maria vs gamma/vedith. And it didn't come with any commentary. So, what drove it?

[mhsmith0]

And with that I've reached the lowlight of the game, and am now tired and no longer interested in more reading.

[mhsmith0]

Remember how early on I said people shouldn't leave the dance?
I'm over that. You should leave the dance

If HS actually takes this advice (she shouldn't) and HS-Parama flips town-town (let's hope not), I'm just gonna stick my vote on Dunn and never move it.

[mhsmith0]

Your reasons for townreading each other are entirely based on an interaction that had no reason to be public and

could be scripted without too much effort

.

I'm actually pretty curious about this point. What about our interactions seems not just like "well it could have been scripted" (which is essentially a non-point, as basically anything COULD have been scripted), but that it would have been EASY to do so? Moreover, since you are (I believe) pretty familiar with pie as a player, do you know her to be at all inclined to run that sort of theater, much less to be actively good at it?

A secondary question is why you think that it should have been private. Given that we were both strongly suspecting the other at the time (or, I suppose, you can argue faking it), what is the gain for taking it to PT instead of dealing with it in thread and out in the open?

[mhsmith0]

If Pie and I were scum and partners together, we would very likely script up something similar in case the game-flow looked like it was turning against us. It would certainly take effort, but would be easy relative to the total effort spent in winning a scum-game, which we're both painfully familiar with.
...
You're basically arguing that if a scum-pair would choose to spend the effort to script a convincing interaction like that, they should automatically win the game, which is kind of silly.

I'm actually pretty curious about this point. What about our interactions seems not just like "well it could have been scripted" (which is essentially a non-point, as basically anything COULD have been scripted), but that it would have been EASY to do so? Moreover, since you are (I believe) pretty familiar with pie as a player, do you know her to be at all inclined to run that sort of theater, much less to be actively good at it?

I am ASKING you what about our interaction seemed like it was easy to fake. Moreover, where did I argue that a scum-scum pair "should automatically win the game" from such an interaction? I'd utterly agree that such an argument would be silly, which is just as silly as you arguing that I actually made that argument.

You're also dodging the question by saying that the interaction would be "easy relative to the total effort spent in winning a scum-game" which is much different than your original point, which was that it "could be scripted without too much effort". The original point basically suggested that it was easy period, and now you seem to be back-pedaling into merely arguing "well, you gotta do something as scum to win, and it's easier than some of the other things you could do to win as scum". Why was our interaction easy to fake, and what about it makes you think that it was in fact faked? I want you to actually substantiate this read instead of relying on a super easy "well it COULD be faked", "it's easier to fake that kind of thing than some other non-specified scum strategy" etc. type take.

I maintain that things which have much greater scum-utility than town-utility should be kept private if possible.

Except that our interaction was the sort of thing that could potentially
1) Swing momentum onto scum (if the other member of our pair was scum)
2) Get others involved in the back and forth, and potentially create readable moments both for us and for them (for instance, HS is basically super lock town for me unless pie is scum for how she engaged with the situation)

So why do you think that had greater scum-utility than town-utility? You're asserting that it did, without substantiating why you think that it's the case.

[mhsmith0]

The latter question is kind of silly. If you and pie are scum, that interaction has likely already resulted in a win for you, where otherwise you were heavily suspected.

Given that we're still suspected, and if we're scum we still need to hit two more ML's, I don't see how it's "already resulted in a win for you". Explain?

It's not so much about what is easily fake-able as what seems reasonably likely to be fake.

If I were ever, for whatever reason, compelled to spend as much effort as pie did in that interaction and believed with the conviction that pie expressed that my partner was scum, I would simply leave the dance.

Despite your repeated comments to the contrary and extremely inappropriate Vedith-bashing, leaving the dance is a very reasonable option compared to trying to lynch potentially quadruply-loved scum. If we lose this game, the blame will rest primarily on the partners of scum.

My Vedith-bashing was extremely appropriate and has (I think) been quite useful in getting people not to continue the disgusting trend of suiciding that he started (and that massively submarined town's chances in the LAST iteration of this format, fwiw). Leaving the dance is exceptionally selfish and anti-town behavior unless you are UTTERLY certain that your partner is scum (and lo and behold, both vedith and shadow were wrong, and in vedith's case especially he deprived Gamma of the chance to convince the board that he was actually town, and the rest of the board the chance to actually evaluate a potential mislynch, including how people behaved in crunch time as majority actually got close).

If we lose this game, Vedith gets a massive chunk of the blame for horrifically screwing up on D1. Cerberus gets a decent chunk of the blame for being useless "as part of a strategy to avoid the NK". Shadow gets some of the blame for suiciding, though at least there it was CLOSE to majority.

Your continual approval of the very obviously anti-town strategy of suiciding is bizarre and anti-town, and your unwillingness to substantiate "what seems reasonably likely to be fake" makes me think that your read here about the me-pie interaction is itself fake. Once again, what ACTUALLY makes it "reasonably likely to be fake"? Why is it so hard to get you to actually put meat behind that read?

[mhsmith0]

Being suspected is irrelevant, because aside from scout, the only people with any suspicion directed at your pair have no chance of executing a lynch. If you and pie are scum, you've nearly certainly won, in large part through the effort of the currently dead town.

You are wrong that Vedith made an error. Gamma was as close to a lynch as he was ever going to get until deadline loomed, at which point the votes are near meaningless. Even you, who are so gung-ho about lynching rather than suicide-bombing, have apparently placed no consideration on the votes leading to the shadow-maria lynch (who were are also as nearly lynched as anyone is going to get here).

Agree that cerberus misplayed. He and Nahdia executed a fairly silly gambit which failed. If he wanted to actually do it with a higher chance of success, he needed to be actively scummy rather than obviously non-present-as-a-strategy.

With regard to the final paragraph, I'm not sure what you're expecting me to point out. I've literally written posts for my scumbuddies in games where there is daytalk, though the practice is fairly rare. I've told you what makes me entertain it as a possibility, which is that pie evidently was thoroughly convinced you were scum when the pushed first started, and there's no reason she should be hesitant to leave the dance because *you* said she shouldn't.

wrt the last bit, your original point was that it was "easy" for pie and me to have arranged it as theater. If you're just "entertaining it as a possibility", then how is that different from "stuff that you shouldn't be clogging the thread with" (since it seems like this is something you care about)? If it's more than just entertaining the possibility, why can't you actually discuss it with substance? "Smith/Pie might be scum/scum trying to win the game with theater" seems like it's a potentially really big deal, and you seem perfectly content to just comment on the possibility and just let it hang out there, and I'm struggling to see why. If you think it's between realistic and likely, why aren't you actively pursuing the read, including trying to at least skim what actually happened and see if anything in particular seems like it was actually faked? It seems like it should be a point of interest for you based on what you've said, but at the same time, it seems like it isn't actually something you're all that interested in, beyond defending why you thought it was reasonable to suppose it in the first place.

PS It's a fair point that I haven't dug into the shadow-maria wagon. I plan to do that soon, was looking at the first half of d1 first.

PPS Why do you think Gamma was as close to lynch as he was going to get pre-deadline? Your vote on him put his wagon into the lead, and there was a LOT of time before deadline (IIRC it hadn't even been a full four out of eight days). Go back to

VOTE: gamma

and around that time, and I don't really see why you think that it was somehow static, especially since Vedith suidided just five minutes after your vote (and previous to your vote, MDS and I had voted Gamma at 2054 and 2157, then Gamma hopped off shadow-maria onto HS-Parama at 2177). It seemed like a potentially dynamic gamestate, not a static one, so I'm really curious why you think it somehow seemed fixed.

[mhsmith0]

and posts like these are the reason i am hard pushing pie/smith today

kagami is town in these posts

Explain why? What posts in particular seem like clear town, or really hard to fake, etc.?

[mhsmith0]

Like, I look at what kagami has posted the past couple pages, and I don't really see anything that a competent scum player couldn't post. What am I missing?

[mhsmith0]

and posts like these are the reason i am hard pushing pie/smith today

kagami is town in these posts

Explain why? What posts in particular seem like clear town, or really hard to fake, etc.?

Like, I look at what kagami has posted the past couple pages, and I don't really see anything that a competent scum player couldn't post. What am I missing?

hey scout, this is not a hard question to answer.

[mhsmith0]

true, but I also posted 3 minutes after his post. unless this was just a total drive-by post, I'd think he should be capable of seeing it.

[mhsmith0]

if any other wagon gets to l-1 i am suiciding, fun fact (sorry smith, i'm not as good at mafia as you, still love you)

fwiw, this essentially makes any voting data from today completely useless, and is just a longer version of a suicide. It's fine to push parama if you suspect her, it's fine to say "I really think it shoudl be parama, and I'm going to oppose and argue against any other wagon", but a hard suicide threat like that really isn't helpful.

[mhsmith0]

and posts like these are the reason i am hard pushing pie/smith today

kagami is town in these posts

Explain why? What posts in particular seem like clear town, or really hard to fake, etc.?

Like, I look at what kagami has posted the past couple pages, and I don't really see anything that a competent scum player couldn't post. What am I missing?

hey scout, this is not a hard question to answer.

If I'm allowed to impersonate: "you townread me quite a lot, most people do, you aren't allowed to ask me questions because I'm town and that's scummy!"

If not: I agree with what she says to a certain extent (I don't think both of you are scum, but one of you could have easily faked their part of the thing) 4458 is , I think, a good argument, her tone is townie, also this

I also don't understand how pie considers jester-parama-dunn more likely than jester-parama-smith.

While that's irrelevant to actual execution, since I think we both agree that sad-scout lives following parama-jester scumlynches, it is strangely defensive.

Also, I appreciate your patience, mhsmith.

1) how easy it is to fake that sort of thing? I find it increasingly bizarre that "well it could have been faked" or "it was easy to fake" is being advanced as an argument without anyone critically engaging in whether it looked fake, or any part of it was especially easy to fake, etc. "it could be fake" is insipid nonsense without any accompanying effort to evaluate whether it actually was fake

2) what about her tone is townie? Similarly, wrt the impression you offered, what about "you can't ask me questions because I'm town and that scummy" seems non-fakeable?

3) what makes 4458 a good argument? The dodge of my push for her to substantiate her read of pie/me? The "it was reasonably likely to be fake" without any substance behind it beyond "if pie really believed it she should have suicided" bit? The "it's the partners fault if we lose" bit that came without critical analysis of Dunn

Pie, I have meetings until 1pm, 3 hours from now. Let's chat then.

The best reason I have to townread Dunn right now is that he's been appropriately suspicious of me fairly often and said as much in PT. That's fake-able, but from what I've seen, he's not a master of subtlety by any means.

Dunn scum would imply a team of dunn-jester-sad or scout, to my mind, which seems pretty high energy.

I would think smith rather than dunn, but dunn is possible.

If Dunn, that would mean jester did an unusual-ish thing in putting me as the scumread in our pair, which seems counterintuitive. He also doesn't have any clear indication that he's going to be the one who goes the distance, such that bussing makes a lot of sense.

Was about as much as she'd talked about Dunn read this game, which is itself odd for someone who's essentially stated that it's super important to accurately read a partner (the only real interpretation of blaming the town partners for a potential loss).

I really don't see where the substance of your TR on her comes from, and I feel like it'd be useful to substantiate it with reasoning that's either better, clearer, or both.

[mhsmith0]

How can you describe a townie tone? It's there or it isn't.

Huh? What in the world is your understanding of "townie tone"? To me, townie tone can be things like:

- this person is super relaxed and free-flowing
- this person is arguing a point in a way that makes me think they're both emotionally and intellectually engaged in what they're doing
- this person has expressed through their posting emotions like suspicion, pride, paranoia etc, and that is consistent with what I'd expect from what they've been saying and doing if they were a villager
etc.

or to slice out another one of my IC points (quoting an exceptionally good tone-reader, and one of the very best players I've ever played with):

Spoiler: On engagement, effort, emotion and tone

Spiff was doing stuff that you just don't see wolves actually do -- claiming a PR with still 24 hours remaining on d1 and openly antagonizing the people pushing him the hardest, rather than just slink away and wait for a shiny object to appear that drags the votes away from him

…

Cron was working super hard at developing his reads and he had the proper emotional investment in what he was doing. I don't feel like pulling up his posts to cite specific examples, so let's just talk again about the Trundle thing. He soulreads a guy as a wolf based on one post and has four reasons for it, and he's super proud of himself and patting himself on the back for it. Wolves aren't trying that hard to develop quick reads and they tend to struggle to come up with that level of insight and they aren't good at getting the subtle emotions right. And his whole day was full of things like that. Cron has played several wolf games on this site and his posting was bland and forgettable each time.

…

I don't have time to adequately respond to that post but one thing I can say quickly is that when I'm talking about emotions, I'm specifically excluding anger. It's the easiest emotion to fake and it's one that is often not alignment-indicative even when it is genuine, unless it can be traced to an origin in something distinctly villagery.

Emotions like pride, paranoia, surprise, suspicion, etc, are more difficult to fake. Wolves often fail to even identify spots in which emotion should be present in their posting, and their efforts at actually displaying more complex emotions are often quite clumsy, for example by stating their supposed feelings rather than displaying them.

But in the case of Cron, a lot of what was clearing for him was just the sheer depth and breadth of his reads and interactions. It's just hard to fake that much content so quickly and make it sound good. And few wolves are ever going to stalk other players' online statuses in order to catch lurkers.

Smith Inserts the Relevant Cron Quotes

Well, here we go again. I'm glad there is not 100 pages in the first hour.

Based on post count alone and higher aggression, different tone in his lost, Emberguard is very likely town.

I agree with the ember read but your first post this game does not impress me like it did in Transformers.

If trundle flips mafia, consider ember town.

Cron, one little wolf tell I've picked up on over time is how a lot of them vote for a bro very early. It's long-game cover and anti-spew, but you'd be alarmed at how many wolves vote for a wolf as their very first action in any given game.

I think it's more likely that mafia just gave an easy read (ember acting very differently this game) as a spew than they're both mafia.

And yes I think trundle is mafia.

Cron, one little wolf tell I've picked up on over time is how a lot of them vote for a bro very early. It's long-game cover and anti-spew, but you'd be alarmed at how many wolves vote for a wolf as their very first action in any given game.

I think it's more likely that mafia just gave an easy read (ember acting very differently this game) as a spew than they're both mafia.

And yes I think trundle is mafia.

Off one post?

Yep. Get on my level.

Why trundle is mafia based on 1 post:

1. Relieved there isn't a flood of posts to read yet gives hardly any content.
2. Only gives an easy tone read on ember, easy to fake as mafia.
3. Content is very lacking compared to his town game in transformers
4. Still has yet to respond to me calling him mafia.

Why trundle is mafia based on 1 post:

1. Relieved there isn't a flood of posts to read yet gives hardly any content.
2. Only gives an easy tone read on ember, easy to fake as mafia.
3. Content is very lacking compared to his town game in transformers
4. Still has yet to respond to me calling him mafia.

Reasonable, but I disagree.
1. I'm in Computer Science and there are exams right now. I don't have time for an overly busy game like Transformers. I figured this one would be less busy simply do to what happened last game. This is why I am relieved. Also, do to the fact that there isn't all the much content yet, I did not have much to go off of, but I did give a read which is more than nearly anyone else had done so far.
2. Any town reading another town as town is easy to fake as mafia reading a town as town.
3. What content? It was my first post of the game and I was just checking in.
4. I was offline.

It seems to me that you're just reaction testing me because my post wasn't as long as it was last time. Also, I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so just give me a second and if anyone else joined bandwagon I'll respond shortly.

I am reaction testing a bit, and you failed miserably.

You've been online in MU for 45 minutes, I saw on main page, so saying you were offline until now is a blatant lie.

Your demeanor is far too calm. Watching you post in dead chat on transformers and post game, the salt levels were off the charts. Yet now in a new game, you're completely mellow and not upset at all with the fact you are being pushed on my multiple people.

I think this post is very well thought out and carefully constructed, but there's no trace of emotion anywhere. You scrubbed your response to make it sound articulate, but you forgot to add any feeling.

Trundle should be a wagon today.

I don't know why you're doubling down on being offline. I saw you online for an extended period of time starting around 10:30 eastern. The reason I remember this is because I was waiting around for your response for 15 minutes and saw you still online during that time.

Ok great, my accusations are nonsense and distracting town. Do you have any other reads outside of ember?

I don't know why you're doubling down on being offline. I saw you online for an extended period of time starting around 10:30 eastern. The reason I remember this is because I was waiting around for your response for 15 minutes and saw you still online during that time.

Ok great, my accusations are nonsense and distracting town. Do you have any other reads outside of ember?

I think Alette's posting is very sketchy, but from last game I just think she always sounds like she is mafia. I have a feeling that most of the mafia have not posted much yet. 3 people have not posted yet, and 4 people are between 1-2 posts. I am very neutral on Revival.

So three mafia within 0-1 post count, 1 mafia higher post count?

I feel like you aren't trying to solve the game. Your reads are alette is scummy but she posts scummy so I dunno and revival is null. Why aren't you creating town lists in your head?

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

If pie was really convinced you were scum, why wouldnt she leave when you were the one saying leaving is antitown?

This question doesn't make sense (possibly just because it was poorly worded). Let me try:

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

The first is easy enough to answer, because it would presume that she could survive my pressure at least long enough to achieve another mislynch or two (correct in that hypothetical given that the day ended with shadow-maria dying).

The second would presume, I guess, that she thought that I, as scum, would be lying about theory? Or that she'd disagree with it? Given that one of the points I was practically screaming about was that if she really was town who believed I was scum, she should be voting me (and, fwiw, it absolutely seemed to me at the time like she was making excuses as to why she wasn't voting me [and if dunn is town, lol him forever for his "I bet smith is just trying to pretend to suspect pie here for the town credit" bit] ). So I guess the question is, what do you think of her discussion of what she was doing? Why do you feel it's non-credible? I've come to a read on her based on our back and forth, and am fairly comfortable that it's probably the correct one.

[mhsmith0]

So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

wrt tone, you can't point to specific posts that substantiate your tone read, and you can't actually even talk through what you mean, and you seem to have zero motivation to try. So when a while back ago I called you scum or intellectually lazy town, guess what, it looks like I was right. If you want to be taken seriously, try thinking through what you mean and why you're saying it. I get that this is hard, but this isn't your first rodeo and you shouldn't be struggling to explain what you mean about something relatively straightforward like this. Of course that only applies if you're town; I guess if you're scum keep doing it since it's apparently working.

Also, are you just skimming my posts? Because I clarified what I thought your questions MIGHT mean, and then actually answered them from either interpretation. Like, this is really really obviously what just happened. Why aren't you actually looking at what I said?

[mhsmith0]

I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

Well your reason for TRing kagami is really shitty if you can't even be bothered to try and understand and explain it. "It's just gut" - what a perfect way to say something that no one can engage with in any kind of substantive or useful manner.

And lo and behold, I lose interest with people who can't be bothered to read what I actually have to say pretty fast, especially when they twist it into "lol smith asking dumb questions". Especially since a few paragraph response is hardly what I'd consider a wall.

[mhsmith0]

PS Lessons in Tone Reading for Dummies:

Smith just made a few posts that shows he's gotten frustrated with scout's continued refusal to be transparent or useful. This is:

1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct. Most of you won't know for sure until after I'd flip, but the answer is actually obvious. Unless you think I'm really good at faking villagery tone as a wolf (which is news to anyone who's seen me wolf). Note how that is an ACTUAL substantiated tone read, explained and everything (blah blah blah wifom self defense blah blah blah). Amazing how that actually works.

[mhsmith0]

Although I said more than just tone?

Okay, you wrote a paragraph. You asked quite a few questions. Which ones are important for me to answer?

Also note that I will sleep now, so you won't get a reply within 3 minutes.

Acutally in 4501 I asked ONE question. For you to substantiate your tonal read (I suppose I also asked you to substantiate in general what you think townie tone is, although that's mainly a sub-question). The two listed "questions" (#s 1 and 2) were very obviously rhetorical questions designed to substantiate my response to your (poorly worded) question. they weren't looking for answers from you, they were themselves part of an answer TO YOU.

PS in 4506 I asked why you weren't reading what I said to which you basically responded "because I'm lazy". So you don't need to answer that one again.

[mhsmith0]

But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

Anger is easy to fake. Frustration less so but it's doable. And tone is emotion, that's kind of the whole point. Anger, surprise, arrogance, frustration, paranoia, those are all emotions that come through as part of tone. If you want to tonal read someone, read their emotions, see if what they're feeling is consistent with what they ought to be feeling in a situation as a villager.

"Genuineness" on the other hand - now that's more of a buzzword than anything substantiated. Genuine what exactly? Genuine belief in the case being pushed? Genuine confidence in being correct? Genuine nervousness about being wrong? "Genuine" can mean all sorts of things, "genuine" without any explanation or clarify is itself empty.

[mhsmith0]

1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct.

75% I like my odds

Shit posting instead of actually dealing with the substance of the post. Congratulations: if you're town you are consciously choosing to be a burden to your team. Good work.

[mhsmith0]

Frustration is a shade of anger. It's not hard to fake - just get into pointless arguments and it comes for free. Like these.

Genuineness = believing in what you are doing
It's hard to put under words how exactly you can see that, which is what I'm telling you.

Because you're bad at reading tone? Here, take an example
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/sea ... hid=680528
here, Titus (town) spent most of the game tunnelling me (town), and was largely mocked and ignored for her efforts. She kept at it, because she believed in it, and it was really obvious that she believed in it, and that's why she was town. That's an easy example of "genuine" - she was under pressure from people who thought she was full of it (including absorbing votes at one point IIRC, as well as having soah basically light into her for how badly she was playing, including him eventually flat-out writing her off as "bad town"), and stuck to her guns in a pretty honest way instead of slinking off to an easier target. That was ACTUALLY genuine, and it came across pretty clearly. Here you say "genuine" but can't describe why you see it and seem to have no real interest in the kind of self-reflection that would actually lead to a better understanding and the ability to be convincing about your read. So if you're town, why don't you actually try? It can't be THAT hard, can it?

[mhsmith0]

Btw he doesn't seem 'here' at all, he's been nitpicking and choosing arguments that don't contribute to anything. He's been arguing with me for god knows how long, but I'm still in his townreads. Natural? ...

ooh! ooh! I bet it's because Smith thinks you're really bad town, but is still suspicious that you're a wolf just pretending to be that! And that his postings are consistent with that perspective!

[mhsmith0]

Btw he doesn't seem 'here' at all, he's been nitpicking and choosing arguments that don't contribute to anything. He's been arguing with me for god knows how long, but I'm still in his townreads. Natural? ...

ooh! ooh! I bet it's because Smith thinks you're really bad town, but is still suspicious that you're a wolf just pretending to be that! And that his postings are consistent with that perspective!

and THAT post had actual genuine emotion in it, in this case condescension and contempt. it's easy to pick up because it bleeds all over the page.

[mhsmith0]

FYI, probably gonna slank most of the day and pop back in tonight.

[mhsmith0]

My biggest paranoia btw is Pie/mhsmith both scum, prob with Dunn. Someone mentioned this earlier but I seriously started having doubts about their back and forth. It's not unlikely for mhsmith to come up with a plan to have arguments with both his scumbuddies at a time when they weren't being scrutinized for massive distancing.

How likely that scenario is I'm not sure.

I'd certainly be capable of coming up with the idea, but what makes you think I'm capable of executing it effectively? That sort of massive distancing operation is something I've never pulled off as scum, and there'd also be substantial risk that the me/pie wagon takes off, at a point in time when (presuming me/Dunn/pie) all of towns attention is on town wagons. That seems kind of a crazy risk to take in a theoretical game state where it was roetty clearly unnecessary, so other than "I guess it's possible" what actually makes you think it's realistically likely? I get that you said you're not sure, but if you're trying to explore a potential town!parama world, I don't really get why you think that outcome would be the one that comes to mind.

[mhsmith0]

Ps in a world in which HS-parama is town-town, why in the world does scum!me not just hammer when I had the chance? Like, obviously it would look bad, but keeping her alive with the chance to town tell or game solve seems super risky, compared to pushing along a LYLO state where town would need to hit 3/3 lynches to win. Obviously this ignores a me/pie team, but even ignoring me knowing it's false that strikes me as a transparently ridiculous notion. I guess I could theoretically be scum with a scum-scum pair, but even there it seems like scum!me should always hammer in that spot instead of questioning pie in PT on why she made the l-1 vote.

[mhsmith0]

Pps Any townie who thinks suiciding is pro-town at this point needs to get their head examined. Threats to leave SHOULD be reserved for scum trying to wifom their way into town credit.

[mhsmith0]

And anyone who doesn't understand that basic fact needs to look at the current game state where parama is trying to live, and how interactions are in the process of developing. Were just halfway through the game day, and we are nowhere near where we need to cut things off.

Also jester replacement isn't here yet and any lynch or suicide should ALWAYS wait for that to happen.

[mhsmith0]

Pps Any townie who thinks suiciding is pro-town at this point needs to get their head examined. Threats to leave SHOULD be reserved for scum trying to wifom their way into town credit.

Btw how mhsmith continues to repeat this point is extremely EXTREMELLLLY concerning me.

Almost like every time he repeats it he wants to go LAMIST.

Pie did the leaving threat thing in their huge argument and he repeated the same thing which looked fake af.

And it's concerning to me that you seem to be preparing for a world in which parama flips town, while simultaneously being very comfortable on her wagon.

Ps she claimed it WAS fake, as part of a reaction test. One of the many reasons at the time I was suspecting her.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw it's a well known fact that I am pretty non confident in my scum game. So the idea that I'd pair up with a scum-buddy (at a time when this was totally unnecessary), and then engineer a fake fight (also at an unnecessary time), with the very significant risk that I'd screw it up and get us both lynched early, seems so completely contrary to how scum!me would think that anyone who knows me at all should realize it's false.

Like, here's how I think as scum
I go for relatively low risk plays (unless I feel like I have to)
I try and blend in
I tell my buddies (unless they suck or are newbies) that they're free to bus me whenever if they think they can pull it off

That's my basic scum play style. It works reasonably adequately for the most part. So the idea that I'd just go totally against how I play, in a setup that's normally scum sided, and with a theoretical team of people who don't suck as scum... I just don't get how anyone could actually believe it.

[mhsmith0]

Ps in a world in which HS-parama is town-town, why in the world does scum!me not just hammer when I had the chance? Like, obviously it would look bad, but keeping her alive with the chance to town tell or game solve seems super risky, compared to pushing along a LYLO state where town would need to hit 3/3 lynches to win. Obviously this ignores a me/pie team, but even ignoring me knowing it's false that strikes me as a transparently ridiculous notion. I guess I could theoretically be scum with a scum-scum pair, but even there it seems like scum!me should always hammer in that spot instead of questioning pie in PT on why she made the l-1 vote.

You mean when Pie put Parama at L-1?

If you are scum with Pie or if you're solo scum I would have pushed you massively if you hammered the Parama pair and they turned town. I don't think you believe this point yourself you honestly wouldn't dare risk that without setting up yourself as having a scumread on Parama, you're not that bad of a scum player so your point her looks unbelievable even for you to.

That only works if my red flip clearly sets up you-scout as town (barring a theoretical me-scout team of course), AND if I couldn't believe you'd take more blame than me (especially w parama screaming for your death) in the first place. It's a relatively low risk play that worst case sacrifices one scum pair for one town pair, which in this game state is pretty +EV for scum. Would I ALWAYS have done it as scum? No, but that's certainly an idea that would have occurred to scum!me given that pair as town.

Like, the only way it's a bad risk for scum!me to take is if I'm with pie, which is again an utterly idiotic read if the game state.

[mhsmith0]

How hard is it for people to understand that awareness of your own meta and even using it as an argument renders it at best NAI.

People are generally bad at manipulating their meta in fundamental ways. Things that people understand themselves to be bad at doing are generally things that they generally don't want to try as scum, which once again begs the (unanswered) question of why scum!smith would be doing all these things he doesn't normally do as scum, in situations that don't require it at all.

Not just "well gee maybe he did it" but why any of that actually makes sense. I get that thinking deeply about things isn't your shtick this game, and heaven forbid you self-analyze your thoughts and processes, but maybe, just maybe, if you're town you could TRY and think deeply about stuff.

[mhsmith0]

now can you please fucking stop being so condescending?

if you say "i cant do that as scum lulz see im town"
IT'S NOT IN ANY WAY HELPING THE SITUATION, NOR DOES IT PROVE THAT YOU ARE TOWN
Now this doesn't have anything to do with thinking deeply. it's common. fucking. sense.

Oh good, scout made a townlean post.
#TonalReads

[mhsmith0]

FWIW, It would be stronger if

1) He'd gotten mad at me (much) earlier
2) He didn't effectively use it as an excuse to dodge the question of why it made sense for scum!me to have done those things

[mhsmith0]

Hi smith, how about you produce a reasonably likely configuration of scum from {sad, scout, jester, MDS, parama, HS}, and explain why it's likely?

That would be a great way of demonstrating your towniness.

Am working on it, I will let you know if/when I feel like I have a good idea. Don't really feel like vomiting up a guess just for the sake of vomiting up a guess.

[mhsmith0]

Don't fuck with me. You keep asking questions for things that can't be explain and call me bad town for it over and over and over again.
Now I tell you something where you are OBVIOUSLY wrong and you wave it away with irony and "oh scout made a townie post haha"

I thought you were convinced of me being town? where did that go?

Pedit: I have patience. You should learn that as well, mhsmith.
I also didn't dodge. Why would town!you do that?

1) Tonal/gut reads CAN be explained (which I've discussed at length already). You chose not to try at all, leaving me with the burden of figuring out why that is. I'm pretty sure most of the stuff I've said can be answered if you care to try, and you don't care to. If you feel like coming up with a list of "unanswerable" things I've asked you to refute that essential point, please feel free.

2) Of course you dodged. I asked why it made sense for scum!me to do those things and you were essentially like "screw answering that, you're just doing WIFOM". It's very obviously a dodge. Telling me that I am OBVIOUSLY wrong does not change the fact that you're choosing not to think through the point I raised and instead just going the easy route of claiming it's WIFOM, self-meta etc and therefore doesn't need to be engaged with at all.

3) I've bounced back and forth on you, generally on the town side but with substantial reservations and suspicions, which I'm pretty sure has been clear enough in my postings. Your apparent representation that I've been consistently holding a strong townread on you is either a lie you have told yourself or one you have told us, and once again you leave it to me to figure out which it is.

[mhsmith0]

That seems like a non-indicative lie, more like something that's exaggerated because he was pissy as opposed to a wolfy lie. Why is that scum-indicative beyond a relatively lazy ("it wasn't accurate therefore scum" take)?

"Nobody else is scumhunting, but -I- am."

which comes across more as "fuck you assholes for being lazy" than "give me town credit for my work" to me. Why do you think it's the latter more than the former?

it's a "i'm better than everyone else so you should listen to me"

lol I forgot about this one. Parama scum-reading SAD for arrogance, even though arrogance is generally a villagery trait (actually, arrogance is one of the most villagery emotions you can see, unless you think it came across as fake or you're dealing with a player who's especially good at faking that sort of thing). Bonus points for anyone here who's played with town!RC btw.

@Parama: If SAD is just being an arrogant jerk instead of a wolf, what does the game board look like to you?

[mhsmith0]

Pedit: contrary, i mostly read on tone

this is also hilarious given our back and forth wrt kagami. I get kind of nervous that this is just bad posting that's pocketing me by how bad it is, but I just feel like at some point, especially with day chat, if he was scum he probably would have had SOMETHING seemingly useful to say instead of just "nope nope how dare you ask for me to explain this thing that I don't want to explain"

[mhsmith0]

Need to think about this and reread. Weekend is crazy so far.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: jester-mds

Thought they were L-1 or 2

holy crap kill this with fire

okay yeah
calling it now: MDS/Jester T/T 100%
SAD + Kagami + smith I guess?

misreading the chain of events, smith. kagami jumped off the wagon 'cause she thought it was near a lynch, then hopped right back on when she realized it wasn't. you're misreading.

also i don't know what spewing means in this context

Parama, can you talk about what was obvscum about this? I'm looking back at this and I don't really see what merited the "holy crap kill this with fire" treatment.

[mhsmith0]

Hi smith, how about you produce a reasonably likely configuration of scum from {sad, scout, jester, MDS, parama, HS}, and explain why it's likely?

That would be a great way of demonstrating your towniness.

Am working on it, I will let you know if/when I feel like I have a good idea. Don't really feel like vomiting up a guess just for the sake of vomiting up a guess.

so you haven't been thinking about it at all, is what you're saying? despite it being the hottest topic in the thread for the past few days?

Sure I've been thinking about it, but I don't have an especially great guess...

Pie town implies at least one of Dunn/scout scum given their continued push against the idea were a town pair (SAD more or less openly chaining lynches now makes him lock scum in the world where pie/HS/para all town)

Pie scum implies... I really don't know? Like I could maybe see something exotic like a scum/scum pair (Dunn/kagami?), but I don't especially feel like that fits interactions well, unless the entire point was to get pie lynched for the town credit to Dunn/kagami, and pies behavior during our fight reflected a total disregard for the possibility I'd completely run out of patience w her and suicide, or that a bunch of townies would hop on because they bought one side or the other. MAYBE I could see pie/sad/scout, especially given pies talk in PT about scout being shitty town but not scum, and there's no question that sad/scout if a team could ride high on the credibility boost from a pie flip
Except all of that requires scum!pie, which I still don't actually see

Also I'm entirely waffling on you (I don't love a decent chunk of your sad push, but don't think I really love sads push on you either), which I GUESS could mean you and SAD are doing theater (this is the point in the game where it might make sense, and this is especially true if a scum/scum pair is bussing their third teammate), but other than "it could be so" I don't really have anything solid to actually say that it IS so.

Tldr version: I really don't know, and there are a bunch f possibilities that occur, but nothing really jumps out at me as being clearly the case.

@Parama: If SAD is just being an arrogant jerk instead of a wolf, what does the game board look like to you?

if sad flips town (and scout does too, which i'd expect to happen) then gg we're boned because scum are gonna push a powerlynch on my pair

i also think this is incredibly unlikely

ftr if you think my scumread on sad is simply based on him being arrogant then L O L

I didn't say that your whole read is based on that, what I said is that the part of your read that relies on that rings really hollow to me.

Let's try again: in a weird world where you and SAD are both town, what is happening with the game state? Who makes sense as scum in that framework? Take "well we're screwed if that happens" off the table for a sec and just think through what actually might be going on in such a case.

Parama, can you talk about what was obvscum about this? I'm looking back at this and I don't really see what merited the "holy crap kill this with fire" treatment.

you literally quoted the post where i explained it

kagami jumped off the wagon 'cause she thought it was near a lynch, then hopped right back on when she realized it wasn't

Does not strike me as obvscum. It strikes me as null given that town!kagami could have been nervous about being near maj, then realized it wasn't close, so just basically did a "eh never mind" on the hop off. Given that a town or scum explanation seems plausible, why did it jump out at you as obvscum?

[mhsmith0]

especially given pies talk in PT about scout being shitty town but not scum

You've done the exact fucking same thing, over and over.
Not a good theory.

From an outside perspective, I might be scum-buddies with you, although I'd think that the scale of our hostility makes that fairly unlikely, whereas pies basic dismissal of you as bad town, without nearly as much hostile interaction, makes that at least a plausible idea. Though pie/SAD would be similarly possible, i guess, if she for some reason felt it was necessary to avoid scrutiny on your slot (though I'm nit sure that she'd normally feel the need to over in that case.

Though again I don't really think pie is scum so I'm pretty sure it's moot.

[mhsmith0]

Need to think about this and reread. Weekend is crazy so far.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: jester-mds

Thought they were L-1 or 2

holy crap kill this with fire

okay yeah
calling it now: MDS/Jester T/T 100%
SAD + Kagami + smith I guess?

misreading the chain of events, smith. kagami jumped off the wagon 'cause she thought it was near a lynch, then hopped right back on when she realized it wasn't. you're misreading.

also i don't know what spewing means in this context

Parama, can you talk about what was obvscum about this? I'm looking back at this and I don't really see what merited the "holy crap kill this with fire" treatment.

Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? At the time conversation diverted into other topics and it more or less got lost, which is kind of odd for what might have been a potential "aha" type moment. This strikes me as very much null on kagami's part as opposed to obvscum, and parama thinks it was obvscum but doesn't want to talk about why she thinks it was. Does anyone else think it was obvscum by kagami?

[mhsmith0]

Most likely non-dunn group (and I'm inclined to think dunn town if for no reason other than his insistence that he gets to decide something if I suicide) remains Smith-Jester-Parama to my mind.

Nobody has suggested any really plausible counter-configuration for the kagami-plan, including parama who should really be the most capable and invested, so I'm kind of inclined to just go with it.

If you're leaning that dunn is town, what's the downside of pushing harder on parama, me or jester vs suiciding on dunn?

[mhsmith0]

PS @Kagami:

What do you think of Parama's push on your unvote/revote (I remember you said a while ago that you wanted to kill everyone who bitched about it, but I'm curious about what she'd said there in particular and her stated reasoning). Like, not so much do you agree (duh) but do you think it's even a reasonable read to make in the first place.

[mhsmith0]

So if you think that's null on her end (and anyone else who pushed on that), then where did

Would be nice if there was some way I could just kill everyone who complained about 4081-4085.

I can barely read games on the weekend and VCs don't happen often, not super complicated.

come from? Just irritation at anyone who pushed on you for it? It kinda felt like more than that when I'd read it.

[mhsmith0]

The path of non-suicide leaves a good chance of my being lynched if the first lynch is a miss, so I don't see it as wildly different.

There remains the chance that dunn is actually scum.

Well, the difference would basically be if dunn is town and parama is scum. Parama getting lynched first in that case means that dunn probably is then town FYPOV if I read it right? In which case not reaching LYLO via suicide would seem like the much better approach, unless I'm missing something important?

[mhsmith0]

"I don't like this, must be scum" happens all the time.

I guess I'm seeing a bit of a disconnect between that and

4095 has nice explanations for scum-parama, but is awkward for town-parama

, as it assumes I'm not simply bussing them, which is also the superficial explanation for 4071.

And yes, disagree re:HS. I think you're overvalue-ing "self-voting" as a town-indicator, especially just after a timeout.

Did something change your mind there? Or am I missing something that connects the picture?

[mhsmith0]

Well, basically I'm at "it looks like she jumped on something vaguely scummy and substituted seeming emotional fervor for having any substance to the read, and now she is refusing to explain why it's scummy (4110 is a description of what happened without an explanation of why it's actually indicative of anything)", and I'm trying to see if she was actually tripped up there (i.e. there just isn't an explanation for something reachy she did) or if I'm reading too much into it. Which is kinda why I want people to weigh in on it, especially given that it's at least something of a new topic of discussion (it had briefly been discussed a couple times but kept getting shunted aside)

I'm also not sure where you stand on it, since stuff like "it happens regardless of reasonableness" suggests that you actually think it's null on her end, rather than being reachy in a meaningful way. Or am I misreading you again?

[mhsmith0]

4110

What parama said there is an accurate description of what I did. She claimed she misread what happened, which is not a crazy impossibility.

It's a description of what happened; my question is why it seems scummy, much less "kill this with fire" worthy.

Also, can you clarify what you mean when you say that she claimed she misread it? What did she misread and where did she say that? 4110 is her telling me that I was misreading it; was that what you meant?

[mhsmith0]

Is this you being lock sure parama is scum, and ditto SAD (or scout)? I just don't see why you'd rather suicide than actually go through the process of pushing through a lynch here? Is it just that the game has drained you? More than that?

[mhsmith0]

At this point I just want smith to die for his reckless wasting of precious words.

well at least pushing me would be better than suiciding.

[mhsmith0]

I just don't see why you'd rather suicide

I wouldn't and won't. I'm just prepared for Kagami doing it.

Nobodies following my lynch path anyway and it gets tiring going on about it and nobody listening

^that also seems somewhat villagery by Dunn. Part of me thinks it's potential ATE with his neck potentially on the line but it still feels honest to me.

[mhsmith0]

Dunn, can you talk about SAD/scout a bit more? In particular, It seems like you think scout is potential scum there; what in particular makes you think scum instead of just lazy/bad town?

[mhsmith0]

I've already said that you die when Dunn flips town and pie agreed. Unfortunately, it looks like parama-pair has to die second.

I still fail to see why, if you're decently sure dunn is town, you're not just pushing the people you want us to lynch after said town flip. Or, for that matter, why you think that I, as scum, would ever be bothered by trading a town suicide that turns the game into LYLO for a scum lynch that still means town needs to run the table to win the game.

Part of me just thinks this is a scam of some sort, and you're just looking to be "convinced" not to suicide, but since you've actually been on the "suicide is totally a good idea guys" bandwagon most of the game, I guess you actually probably mean it. All I can say is it's a really bad idea, for all the reasons I've already discussed. I don't really want to get into a yelling match about it again, you already know what I think and why I think it.

[mhsmith0]

Well, mhsmith is preparing for me to flip town.

And is trying to get kagami not to suicide, almost like he's starting to think you're town and kagami may be about to blow the game.

[mhsmith0]

Also preparing to argue that kagami shouldn't have suicided and now town's in a perilous position but jester must be scum

Don't let him do that

If you flip town, I would always argue that kagami shouldn't have suicided and that town's now in a perilous position.

"but jester must be scum", though, isn't something that I've been leading towards; why do you think I have been?

[mhsmith0]

And is trying to get kagami not to suicide

I don't see where you did that.

Spoiler: where i did that (other than "throughout the game" as a general process)

And is trying to get kagami not to suicide

I don't see where you did that.

Most likely non-dunn group (and I'm inclined to think dunn town if for no reason other than his insistence that he gets to decide something if I suicide) remains Smith-Jester-Parama to my mind.

Nobody has suggested any really plausible counter-configuration for the kagami-plan, including parama who should really be the most capable and invested, so I'm kind of inclined to just go with it.

If you're leaning that dunn is town, what's the downside of pushing harder on parama, me or jester vs suiciding on dunn?

PS @Kagami:

What do you think of Parama's push on your unvote/revote (I remember you said a while ago that you wanted to kill everyone who bitched about it, but I'm curious about what she'd said there in particular and her stated reasoning). Like, not so much do you agree (duh) but do you think it's even a reasonable read to make in the first place.

Is this you being lock sure parama is scum, and ditto SAD (or scout)? I just don't see why you'd rather suicide than actually go through the process of pushing through a lynch here? Is it just that the game has drained you? More than that?

At this point I just want smith to die for his reckless wasting of precious words.

well at least pushing me would be better than suiciding.

I just don't see why you'd rather suicide

I wouldn't and won't. I'm just prepared for Kagami doing it.

Nobodies following my lynch path anyway and it gets tiring going on about it and nobody listening

^that also seems somewhat villagery by Dunn. Part of me thinks it's potential ATE with his neck potentially on the line but it still feels honest to me.

I've already said that you die when Dunn flips town and pie agreed. Unfortunately, it looks like parama-pair has to die second.

I still fail to see why, if you're decently sure dunn is town, you're not just pushing the people you want us to lynch after said town flip. Or, for that matter, why you think that I, as scum, would ever be bothered by trading a town suicide that turns the game into LYLO for a scum lynch that still means town needs to run the table to win the game.

Part of me just thinks this is a scam of some sort, and you're just looking to be "convinced" not to suicide, but since you've actually been on the "suicide is totally a good idea guys" bandwagon most of the game, I guess you actually probably mean it. All I can say is it's a really bad idea, for all the reasons I've already discussed. I don't really want to get into a yelling match about it again, you already know what I think and why I think it.

note also that pushing her to discuss parama also served to potentially move away from the suicide idea. idk where you get "smith hasn't done anything to advance his 'please don't suicide' agenda" from.

[mhsmith0]

And it's because you've been on jester with your vote all day and you only unvoted him because I said something about him flaking out.

no, you're arguing that I explicitly was preparing to argue that jester must be scum due to the game state. Where have I made such a push of late, either explicitly or subtly?

[mhsmith0]

Where have I made such a push of late, either explicitly or subtly?

Please state who you think is scum if my pair is town.

I don't know, and have been fairly clear about not really knowing for quite some time. Now explain where a made the push like you're accusing me of.

[mhsmith0]

At this point I just want smith to die for his reckless wasting of precious words.

well at least pushing me would be better than suiciding.

Also preparing to argue that kagami shouldn't have suicided and now town's in a perilous position but jester must be scum

Don't let him do that

^implies im actively preparing the way for it

[mhsmith0]

Ps I've actually been making posts suggestive of going on scout if you flipped town (the whole Dunn/scout/pie not all town bit).

[mhsmith0]

You're actively preparing the first two parts, which you agreed to.

The last part if you're scum going down you might not even do. I don't see why you're hung up over it

The third point is the relevant one. The first two are just genetically/obviously true. Restating them without doing anything with them would be more or less meaningless, so saying I'm preparing to argue something obvious is... not interesting? The point only holds water if you think I'm doing it to set up jester, otherwise it's just noise.

[mhsmith0]

Parama/MDS/Dunn??
Parama/MDS/mhsmith??

I townread literally everybody arthur wants to lynch. Lynch this.

HOLD THE PHONE ACTUALLY

I 100% rescind my townread on smith. Check this out.

Spoiler: Smith a few months ago, newbie 1714

Also, I have to say this was my best wolfing effort ever BY FAR. Usually I'm much worse than this. And while there were some down spots, I really, truly did have fun.

I really did enjoy playing with you all, and I hope you had fun as well.

I know this is super old news to most of you but my townread on smith relied on his personality just not working with the play he'd have to pull off here in a scum slot.
Now I'm not so sure. This was the asterisk, I always needed to check this out but just never got around to it.
After seeing his play in 1714 compared to his play here, he's no longer a townread.

Jester/mds is my preferred endgame pair.

Out of curiosity, how would you say my play in 1714 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8008929 compares to what I've done here? Like, I'd say that it's pretty wildly different, including

- basically zero emotion ever
- lots of useless posts
- lots of lurking (though in fairness I lurk as either alignment at times)
like, I subbed in on d2, hammered beeboy for the win on day 3, and made only 30 posts in between those points in time, and about half of them were pretty transparently useless. I also managed to go the entire game without showing any kind of frustration about the fact that town was doing really really badly, no actual anger at vandit having screwed over the town with his day 1 lolhammer, etc. Part of the reason that it was fun was that it was EASY. I was able to coast like crazy with no one ever pushing me or even much caring what I had to say. I was "town", and everyone was busy with their tunnels, so, unlike a lot of games where things fell apart (and the stack of scum losses on my resume makes it fairly obvious that this has been common for me, though I do think I've left my "lol smith is awful at scum" phase behind), I was able to more or less enjoy myself and be busy with trying to PR hunt instead of really having to worry about blending in.

PS I'd also say that my 1714 was a pretty good example of what I was talking about in my earlier discussion with scout about his read that kagami "seemed genuine" (as well as his flagrant lack of interest in discussing what it meant or doing any kind of self-evaluation on that point). Like, look at my posts in those games (at least the non shit posts), and the content in them was fine (I had some benefit there having incorrectly established a scum-read on vandit before I subbed in, fwiw).

If your read on me on that game was whether I "seemed genuine", based on making reasonable-sounding posts, asking decent questions, and not screwing up in any kind of obvscum way, then you would have (very incorrectly) town read me there. It's also what a bunch of halfway decent scum players can play like, including off the top of my head: Harb (on playdip, he was scum in my first mafia game ever and wrecked the town that was mainly lazy and lynchbaits), Titus (that my scum game resembles hers in this manner is probably why I'm so good at recognizing it), and probably a few others that I can't ID off the top of my head (PantherPunt, another very good player, plays scum also as a dampened version of his town game, but it's a bit different in a wya that I can't really put my finger on off the top of my head). That was why I pushed specifically on that point: "seeming genuine" is the easiest thing in the world for a competent scum player to fake, especially if that read is based mainly on said player merely not saying anythign particularly stupid (and since scout wasn't interested in expounding on his read there, that's what I'm more or less assuming his point was).

[mhsmith0]

PPS I'd actually say my scum game has improved since 1714 in a few ways, but ignoring that fact, I'm curious why you'd think 1714 was particularly comparable to this game.

[mhsmith0]

What is up with the garbage reasoning that's been going on in the thread.

MDS "Dunn and mhsmith can't be scum together"

HS "Jester is bad so he's town"

HS "Parama is town because of random posts"

Seriously what the fuck. If you guys are town I will not let you lose me the game like exactly what happened last game with UT being scum and I called for his lynch day 1 and he fucking got away to endgame and win because of "there's no way he can be scum with the other flipped". Its literally the same fucking shit you people are doing with these random assosciation ruiling out without a scum flip and letting Parama slide with scummy posting.

Not sure yet on parama but I completely agree with the larger point about the stupidity of trying to push strong associations, much less trying to guess the whole scum team, pre-flip.

[mhsmith0]

Thank god parama flipped scum. I'll be rereading sometime this weekend given the flip.

My gut says that she spewed kagami town with her push there, but want to reread to be more confident of that one. Will see if she likely spewed anyone else one way or the other along the way.

[mhsmith0]

Skimming parama ISO, there were a few posts relating to jester/mds I want to dig into more. I feel like her treatment of their pair, including the multiple times they were a wagon, ought to spew them one way or the other. That's probably the priority item for me on closer reread. Fortunately we have 8 days again so I don't need to go nuts during Christmas weekend.

[mhsmith0]

My gut says that she spewed kagami town with her push there

What are you talking about and why is it only kagami and not me?

Hope you're not talking about stuff AFTER HS suicided.

You remember paramas "kill it with fire" bit after kagami unvote/revote? That was what I was talking about. I still don't know why basically no one seemed interested in talking about that, including after I brought it back up a few times.

Now that parama is dead, it was either an opportunistic hop onto something null (and that it was in the context of kagami vote on mds/jester means either pocketing or defending a scum-buddy, nit sure which off the cuff), or she knew she was going down and was just trying to create anti-spew. My current inclination is that it was an actual opportunistic push though.

[mhsmith0]

So by extension does that mean I'm town to you or just kagami?

Probably spews you both, if I'm correct about it. The question is if, in that spot (where HS threatened to suicide if anyone else got to l-1), she'd be more inclined to try and fake spew a buddy town (knowing wagon wouldn't have a realistic chance of going through), or more inclined to try and get off one more mislynch for the road. I don't know parama as a player, so I don't know for sure what she'd be inclined to do there, but I'd think it's likelier to be real spew than fake spew.

I still want to do a larger re-read to be sure but that's my current gut. I'm not entirely sure what to think of kagami's essentially meh reaction to the moment when I pushed her on it, but then no one else seemed inclined to much care either, so I want to say her lack of interest is probably not indicative of her on that front.

[mhsmith0]

I think I called you out on that post because it looked like you were setting up for me flipping town and trying not to get suicided on the next day

I thought it was
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8652537
Actually, although I guess you hadn't specified which one in particular.

[mhsmith0]

Thinking about it, want to take the time to go through parama interactions (probably also HS ones) and see what I think. I don't particularly think that parama vs sad was outside the realm of reasonable scum theater (all the more so if scout was the scum in the sad/scout pair), but "it could have been" isn't really enough for me to go on rn. This is me being lazy again, but it's a holiday weekend and we now have more time so I don't feel a crazy need to rush.

[mhsmith0]

lol me either. I've already told her to feel free to vote me if she likes. She seems to think this will result in our pair getting voted out quickly, though damned if I know why given the pace of the game so far.

[mhsmith0]

^5264 is a flagrant town post by SAD. Still not sure about scout, but unless there's evidence SAD is a VERY good actor that just looks town.

[mhsmith0]

I still think it's just smith-jester, and don't see any terribly compelling reason to believe otherwise (and even less to believe that piesmith isn't the correct lynch). If smith is town, I'd be inclined to say jester pair is town, so I'm not averse to leaving.

Smith opportunistically attacking the team-call yesterday

makes me think I'm not wrong though.

Could you clarify this? What about my posts on the team-call was opportunistic?

[mhsmith0]

Me and pie is lol

Clarify this? You/pie is something I've been mulling over, and it's seems realistic on a conceptual basis, with you bussing pie for town credit to coast to endgame, with pie maybe sinking Dunn/kagami before bowing out. What exactly disqualifies this pairing in particular (I'd think you can't be arguing "because I'm town" here since it seems like this pairing in particular is what bugs you as an idea).

[mhsmith0]

...HS, fuck you.

Scout, what drove this reaction to HS leaving? I get that you were pushing for me/pie, but that seems like an overreaction to something HS had been saying she'd do most of the day, all the more so since you weren't really pushing HS NOT to want parama dead, just instead pushing on the me/pie option.

[mhsmith0]

for the record, the only reason I'm on The_Jester and not mhsmith0 is that I'd like a chance to be able to discuss reads with Kagami with a scum flip on the table (and Nahdia if they're still alive).

if we lynch The_Jester (likely regardless of what he flips), or if we get a scum flip somewhere else, or if Kagami decides to ditch me and go ahead and vote us, then I likely will self vote (and SAD is correct that this approach kills me if I'm scum, since once one of these things happens I really have no option but to invent some reason to push someone else and I look like obvscum).

[mhsmith0]

I don't know for sure what you're capable of, especially given day chat and the ability to bounce ideas off of teammates. "Bussing", in the context of my wagon not being at particular risk of going through for at least MOST of the day on d1 (it flared up for a while, but was generally not the leading wagon), seems reasonable enough as a strategy. How much bussing occurs varies, but a mountainous format like this probably suggests that SOME bussing is optimal, and it's just a question of when and how. But if the strategy is to set you/SAD up as the end game pair, then why not? The question isn't so much if you would do it, but how capable of pulling it off you are. Because as a concept, I don't see the issue.

Wrt HS, if you were that opposed to parama death, why weren't you defending her directly? You'd known for a while HS was likely to suicide (since she'd been very clear on the subject) but you weren't interested in talking her out of it and pushing a town!parama case. So in that context, especially since it wasn't LYLO, what was the problem with what she did? Why represent an anger response when you hadn't represented an interest in parama being town and being worth keeping alive (other than indirectly via having other priorities)?

[mhsmith0]

for the record, the only reason I'm on The_Jester and not mhsmith0 is that I'd like a chance to be able to discuss reads with Kagami with a scum flip on the table (and Nahdia if they're still alive).

if we lynch The_Jester (likely regardless of what he flips), or if we get a scum flip somewhere else, or if Kagami decides to ditch me and go ahead and vote us, then I likely will self vote (and SAD is correct that this approach kills me if I'm scum, since once one of these things happens I really have no option but to invent some reason to push someone else and I look like obvscum).

img

What are you trying to say here

That she earlier had laid out criteria to self vote, those criteria have been met, she still states suspicion on me, and she's not voting, and I'm suspicious she's just inventing a reason to not be doing that.

Me and pie is lol

Clarify this? You/pie is something I've been mulling over, and it's seems realistic on a conceptual basis, with you bussing pie for town credit to coast to endgame, with pie maybe sinking Dunn/kagami before bowing out. What exactly disqualifies this pairing in particular (I'd think you can't be arguing "because I'm town" here since it seems like this pairing in particular is what bugs you as an idea).

So you think Pie is faking her anger/getting mad as scum?

And you think she's faking the suicide thing? If I just said "ok suicide" what would she do?

Oh she's clearly faking the suicide thing, the question is if it's for villagery reasons or not. She's been pretty clear for a while that she's not actually going to suicide, so if she lies about it and does so anyway, then that's on her and I'll just shit on her in dead thread (unless she's scum in which case it depends on the situational context).

Wrt the anger, that was basically the only thing I was townreading her for (basically everything else could be faked easily enough). If I was simply wrong on that, then she could be scum.

[mhsmith0]

@mds: which misreps in partuclar stand out to you? I could look myself but since I think you have a list I'd rather you just provide it.

[mhsmith0]

FWIW, where I keep going back to on scout is (from one of the guys I quote in my newbie game IC post)

If a scum does try some fake scumhunting it will lack righteousness. It will smell feeble. You will struggle to see how or why this vapour is vote-worthy relative to alternative issues present in the thread.

Knowing this some scum players might try and fake passion for their vote to disguise the deficit in intellectual integrity underpinning it. Then you are looking for a disproportionate level of zeal and/or confidence

. A scum in this mode is not necessarily harder to spot, but can be harder to lynch since they can impress weaker-minded townies. They can shamelessly segue from one terrible vote underpinned by garbage to another and not miss a beat. Scum also tend to gravitate to this mode the closer they are to the win.

I just feel like he's choosing to be intellectually lazy in his engagement, and I increasingly suspect it's a cover, not a true townie tunnel.

OTOH Jester continues to pretty much openly do jack shit, and I'd absolutely agree with pie about how annoying it would be to lose to someone who essentially put zero effort into fake scum-hunting but somehow won anyway.

So basically this is a fancy prodge to say I still suspect scout and want to see SOME kind of substance from Jester in the near future.

[mhsmith0]

Why are you even talking about who'd you rather lose to, what kind of mindset is this?
We still got few days, I'll try.

Do you think it's fake? Reaction testing? Genuine frustration? If you want to tone/emotion read people, that seems like a plausible place to start rather than just saying "that's bad".

[mhsmith0]

I'm mostly a tone reader and everyone's done a pretty good job at looking convincing one way or another and I just wanna townread everyone. Let's just agree everyone's town and call it game

^implied you didn't really have substantive thoughts
I guess I'll just wait and see then.

[mhsmith0]

I don't really wanna see scout/sad suicide right now. I'd rather see smith/pie flip

VOTE: smith/pie

Which of us do you think is scum? And why? And if we flip town/town, what exactly would this teach you?

[mhsmith0]

Only if Pie is actually serious about it, which maybe she is, but I keep getting a "she's trying to manipulate kagami into suiciding first" gut ping from her. If she's town she's doing this really badly IMO, and if she's scum I would say the same unless there's some kind of useful WIFOM bit to it, or if she actually thinks she can get kagami to bite the bullet first.

Of course you could actually be scum, in which case it's just lolsmith, but oh well I guess.

[mhsmith0]

PS "which person who threatens to suicide will actually do it first" is a really stupid game state to be in, where it's really easy for a wolf to posture around suiciding and then just wait for some town sucker to do it first. Everyone who's actually ok with this as a game state (well, the townies anyway - obviously wolves should be fine with it) should take this as a learning experience for when it, in all likelihood, screws town over.

^more "smith just talking about mechanics" stuff, clearly smith is just a wolf hiding behind this instead of a villager who thinks that people are being really dumb

[mhsmith0]

If you're town I forgive you.
If you're scum I definitely forgive you.
I didn't play all that well this game, not really sure why. Just never got into it like I normally do. No hard feelings, even if self voting and forcing someone to hammer was always the best town approach.

[mhsmith0]

I still have ill feelings on scout fwiw, but presuming pie is town it's almost certainly 2/3 in Dunn scout jester. Sorry I wasn't better at this, sometimes smith has bad games too

[mhsmith0]

Also try to make the last death an actual lynch. Do it for smith, especially in case it's actually a scum-scum pair.
<3 good luck guys!

[mhsmith0]

It's twilight and fakegod isn't here yet anyway. Who wants to talk?

[mhsmith0]

Tomorrow's list:
1) force jester to justify that FUGLY hop on our wagon
2) figure out a legit town read from Dunn/scout/jester
3) DO NOT SUICIDE (since scum/scum is mechanically possible)

Obviously ignore #3 if pie flips scum. I'll cheer you on from dead thread, it'd be nice to grab a rare win I didn't really deserve (usually it's the reverse in my town games )

[mhsmith0]

I'm ready to be spoiled now fakegod...

[mhsmith0]

Tomorrow's list:
1) force jester to justify that FUGLY hop on our wagon
2) figure out a legit town read from Dunn/scout/jester
3) DO NOT SUICIDE (since scum/scum is mechanically possible)

Obviously ignore #3 if pie flips scum. I'll cheer you on from dead thread, it'd be nice to grab a rare win I didn't really deserve (usually it's the reverse in my town games )

Well I mean don't ignore the "don't suicide" bit since it's just not good play regardless of pie flip, but lol yeah if she's scum obv it can't be scum-scum pair.

[mhsmith0]

More upside: I get to mark this as "killed" instead of "lynched" in my stats. Still only only mislynched once as town outside turbos

[mhsmith0]

Sorry pie, I played terribly.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8688304
Did you forget you were voting them or something? Such a weird contrast there.

[mhsmith0]

oh yeah and cerb your gambit was literally insane

Agreed. People playing to scum wincon intentionally always bug me.

[mhsmith0]

Sorry pie, I played terribly.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8688304
Did you forget you were voting them or something? Such a weird contrast there.

Not sure what post you mean, but it looks like my phone butchered one. I meant that lynching sad was impossible without mds.

It seemed like you wanted to lynch sad/scout but were voting jester/mds.

[mhsmith0]

andy i suck at scum lol
you just happened to be scum with me in my best scumgame ever so you think my scum play is pro but it's not

Lies I refuse to believe.
Panama best scum powerfulest wizard kills SpyreX busses buddies what is defeat he doesn't even know

Parama played quite well as scum here. I was impressed.

I want to rand town against newbscum more often

[mhsmith0]

Why? I got the impression you consider yourself a strong player.

Because while I enjoy the challenge of playing against good scum players (and this game had three of them), losing is frustrating and it would be nice to have easy games more than rarely. I'm also (again) in the middle of a losing streak and it's really annoying. This game I didn't particularly deserve to win, but some of the others were pretty annoying. I tend to get saltier and saltier as losing streaks get longer. Not fun times...

[mhsmith0]

Why? I got the impression you consider yourself a strong player.

FWIW I consider myself decently above average but well below elite.

[mhsmith0]

sure. wouldn't even mind doing this setup again tbh, though i generally prefer smaller games than this. of course, I say this having recently played a 80+ player game (and kicked ass too )

[mhsmith0]

on MU we often say lolwillage after town losses. it's not quite lol village, it actually means "lol Want It Less village"

Town as a whole earned that moniker, myself included.

@Pie: i will say that if you knew I was town, beyond just not suiciding (duh), you should have worked to engage me with the points that I actually was making, and do the work needed to convince me you were right on dunn.

I was actually pretty upset when you made the "I demand you do more" point in PT not all that long after you blew up over my having made a similar demand of you back when I was pushing you on day 1. It made it very difficult for me to engage with you, and made me suspect that the whole thing was fake. Like, if you were town doing it, you were gonna follow through anyway and anything I did to try and convince you otherwise would probably look like survivalism, and if you were scum, then it was just posturing and I really couldn't work around it effectively either.

I was also upset on day 1 when you decided I was sorting you in an extremely half-assed way. I think if you go through the PT's and the game thread you'll find few examples of anyone working as hard as I did to try and sort you, not just on day one but as the game went along. I may not have been effective this game, and I may not have put in the kind of work on all of my reads as I needed to, but I was actually trying pretty hard to sort you, and it seemed like no one gave a damn at all about that (and that wasn't just you, it was also the collectve in thread). Honestly, there were multiple occasions where it seemed pretty clear no one much cared at all about what I had to say, or was interested in engaging me substantively on the points that I did bring up. I made a list in dead thread, but I don't think that was even exhaustive.

I freely admit I didn't have a good game here... but I actually did try. Not hard enough but the effort was there. I dunno, I probably ought to have something better to say but I really don't.

well played scum, not well played town.

[mhsmith0]

I feel bad for sickofit who got absolutely brushed aside as people rushed to get pairings

agreed on that front fwiw

[mhsmith0]

it's town-sided if town is competent and playing remotely optimally

instead a bunch of townies made obviously scum-sided plans and plays and happily followed them through to the fairly obvious likely end result

pointing this out in thread (while very obviously caring about the points I was raising) and getting dismissed, ignored and suspected for "setup spec" was super fun.

[mhsmith0]

of the town (the three scum all played quite well IMO):

hs suicided and got the only scum kill of the game, and started the push on parama post intermission. for a newer player, that's overall a solid game warts aside

vedith scum mvp in a walk for reasons that I think are utterly obvious

jester put in essentially zero effort all game long and would have been scum MVP in a normal game

cerb, if in fact a very good player, had a horror of a game (if he's simply a meh player [my impression fwiw] then he just had a down game)
scout managed to put zero effort into sorting his partner and managed to hard town read a very obviously fakable post in his PT on the last page
kagami didn't play well
nahdia didn't do much

most other townies played poorly as well

[mhsmith0]

Yeah, if that's what you want I'm down. Don't feel bad about it, I trust in your decision if you think thats what's best for town. And then we can enjoy our time in the dead PT goading people during lylo hehe.

Let's see...

SAD makes a post showing:
1) Literally zero paranoia about wolf!scout running some kind of scam
2) Insanely friendly/buddying response for what could conceivably be a near game-ending fuckup

Scout decides that this is somehow super townie, for reasons that are known only to himself, because gut/tonal reads can't be explained.

Except, of course, that they CAN be explained. And part of playing mafia effectively is understanding what it is you're seeing and why you're seeing it, and being able to explain it in a way that others can understand. And this is an incredibly easy example of what I'm talking about. Tonal reads that have substance and thought behind them can be explained, and if you want to be an effective tone reader you pretty much HAVE to learn how to do this.

[mhsmith0]

It isn't.
She pushed all the mislynches till she was alive. Had SAD and Parama are super town lmao. Also pushed an MDS/Jester lynch which caused town to lose at the end. She caused Parama to die but irreparable damage had been done by then.

She made mistakes, but all of the town did. She wasn't the town leader, and wasn't a veteran player. She's not the person who's supposed to be the hero, as a newer player she should expect that she can make mistakes and still have better town players around to carry her where needed. Those better town players never showed up this game.

[mhsmith0]

Sucking up to players for no reason is not my playstyle. I made a pretty decent case on Kagami scum which nobody listened to. I think I said it in my lover PT too that one of Dunn/Kagami is def scum so it didn't matter.
I said SAD is just scum who doesn't want to catch up and hence is complaining about the hyperposting.

Nahdia what did you do with your charisma? Fuck all

Charisma is leagues more important than consistently accurate reads, silly.

Charisma is super important as scum, without a doubt.

As town both are important. Finding scum and leading lynches on scum are both important town skills; if your reads are good but you can't get anyone to listen to you, that's not nearly as bad as if your reads are trash but you proudly lead town right off a cliff, but it's still an area of improvement.

@Shadow: I do think that you need to figure out how to better connect to your teammates as town. Your reads were good, but your communication of your reads was poor, and your willingness to just wave the white flag wasn't good either. Sometimes when your back is up against the wall you just have to fight it. Even when it's hard. Even when you know you're going to lose anyway.

[mhsmith0]

Personally I think that empathy is more important than charisma. I'd be lying if I said I was good at either though, so *shrugs*

@Shadow: there were a couple points where you gave up on a back and forth; I recall at least one instance when you were under fire and I asked you a substantive question and you basically replied with a "eh fuck it" kind of answer. One really important thing to do, especially as town, is to engage with people who are suspecting you and be open about your thought process, and take the time to understand what people are saying and asking, and respond to them. One reason i tend to struggle as scum is that I'm VERY good at doing this as town (I'm virtually unlynchable as town, with a mislynch rate of under 5% per town game), but i care more about playing in a pro-town manner generally and how well I do as town compared to how well I do as scum, so this doesn't much bother me for the most part.

[mhsmith0]

@Shadow: Sometimes certain people won't engage with you, but when that happens you work to substantively engage with others. If you're left in a situation where no one at all will substantively engage with you, that's a different story, but I didn't think that was a board-wide problem with you, although since you were the one being wagoned i could certainly be wrong/misremembering. My recollection of our back and forth was that you were more cutting off discussion than i was, for instance, though again it's been weeks since your pair's death so again I could easily be wrong here.

[mhsmith0]

I'm sorry.

Mistakes were made by many. Learn, improve, grow. That's what matters.

[mhsmith0]

also, i haven't read any pts or stuff yet, any recommendations?

Whiskey

[mhsmith0]

What you're describing is exactly what went down, though. Lynches were pushed and not achieved, then suicide happened/was suggested. The wagons that were hard to push were not on scum, every wagon is hard to push in a game of evens where there's no motivation to vote one's lover.

That is simply not what happened. Gamma-vedith was in no way unnaturally stalled, and shadow-Maria wasn't either. If anything, vedith gave up because he (foolishly) saw his lynch as inevitable, ditto shadow (to a lesser extent, though time very much still existed). Lynches are almost always hard, especially in large games. That people chose to suicide well before deadline, when alternatives were still at least semi plausible, makes your point clearly wrong. Suicide was the lazy alternative to the hard work of achieving lynches and creating meaningful interactions and town eagerly embraced that transparently bad play.

[mhsmith0]

Alas, there does not seem to be a Scummy for "most savage fight between lovers"