VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[Reasonably Rational]

Chara, it would be great if you reappeared, rather than disappearing immediately after I drew attention to concerns I had about your slot(okay, not immediately, but you get what I mean).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

hello Cerb, i'm reading. don't have much to say right now. reading from where i've left off, not caught up on any of the hood things. was only posting to talk to Drixx and you earlier about your concerns.

Okay! Let me know when you've caught up! <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can you just give me your blind faith? <3


~B

I mean I can
But I feel like this is an excuse for you to be lazy and your explanations are my catnip.

And no I am not going to bloc with mastina I want mastina to

But I will bloc with Bee

Will everyone bloc with me?

<3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Or have we already bloc'd? Are we in the midst of a blockening?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OH BABY
YEEEEEES

I mean
Thank you bee, I got that trend too but I felt like his evaluation of my Micc case was natural so I townread that.
But I mean, tbf there are more signs that point to scum!gamma then town!gamma so...
VOTE: Gamma

Pretty much agreed that Gamma here certainly doesn't seem like the Gamma I've known.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Titus be honest with me.
Are you trying to PL math?

I'm not sure. Their behavior seems erratic, even for them.

1) At the start, they couldn't stay on a wagon for very long. For instance, they were really excited about working with me on Iconeum but then just vamoosed on it and TRed them.

2) They seemed rather against people using powers today. This once could be vanity though as they tend to push back on those with more control.

3) The "counterclaim" on Mastina coinciding with an unvote.

4) The wanting to tie either the White Creature God of voting to Skybird and Iconeum. I can't see protown motivation there.

5) The repeated assertion that they are powerless.

6) The refusal to do a readwall and acting like it's complicated.

I'd want to sort them as they leave me uneasy.

~Titus

The 4th point was me, not math, and the motivation is fairly simple to understand given that I stated my belief that the owner of these creatures is likely town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Titus be honest with me.
Are you trying to PL math?

I'm not sure. Their behavior seems erratic, even for them.

1) At the start, they couldn't stay on a wagon for very long. For instance, they were really excited about working with me on Iconeum but then just vamoosed on it and TRed them.

2) They seemed rather against people using powers today. This once could be vanity though as they tend to push back on those with more control.

3) The "counterclaim" on Mastina coinciding with an unvote.

4) The wanting to tie either the White Creature God of voting to Skybird and Iconeum. I can't see protown motivation there.

5) The repeated assertion that they are powerless.

6) The refusal to do a readwall and acting like it's complicated.

I'd want to sort them as they leave me uneasy.

~Titus

The 4th point was me, not math, and the motivation is fairly simple to understand given that I stated my belief that the owner of these creatures is likely town.

-Cerb

*shakes head* No. You weren't trying to create doubt and paranoia to search after power roles rather than hunt scum.

Eh.

I was definitely deliberately trying to create paranoia about someone controlling so many votes, though I did counteract that by noting that I'm pretty sure those votes are controlled by a town slot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@A50: our win con is to remove the end. It is not to remove all threats. That means that if there were say a serial killer, if they were still alive when we removed the last member of the end, town would just win. Therefore any 3p that can't win with town would require some mechanism preventing town from winning upon removing the end from the game.

That makes me think it's unlikely that any antitown 3p are in the game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@A50: our win con is to remove the end. It is not to remove all threats. That means that if there were say a serial killer, if they were still alive when we removed the last member of the end, town would just win. Therefore any 3p that can't win with town would require some mechanism preventing town from winning upon removing the end from the game.

That makes me think it's unlikely that any antitown 3p are in the game.

-Cerb

Oh, maybe I misinterpreted what you said ... again. I thought you were suggesting there might be a 3P that -while alive- DOES prevent the town from winning.

Nope, I was just saying that if an antitown 3p exists, they'd need to have some effect like that, not that it was likely that was the case.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh and FYI I think those Creatures belong to scum.

The white ones.

Just a hunch.

Not impossible, but likely a misplay if true.

Unless they had reason to believe ownership could be revealed somehow. The first creature came into play before Micc/Nancys ability to gift a creature was known, so if scum, they made a mistake imo, or suspected creatures could be tied to owners easily enough to justify using their creatures and spells sure optimally.

Since someone brought this up publicly(much easier to get potential scum to admit a connection to something if they think it gets people to town read them), I have to ask:

Alisae, why did you give Chara that creature? Chara in particular. The real reason.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Apparently, the Squirrel creature type only became such a big staple of Magic because the head of the art department didn't know how to play Magic.

This is an amazing piece of trivia.

Also, I <3 Squirrels.

-Cerb

V : https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2002-07-22
I love Making Magic articles.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh and FYI I think those Creatures belong to scum.

The white ones.

Just a hunch.

Not impossible, but likely a misplay if true.

Unless they had reason to believe ownership could be revealed somehow. The first creature came into play before Micc/Nancys ability to gift a creature was known, so if scum, they made a mistake imo, or suspected creatures could be tied to owners easily enough to justify using their creatures and spells sure optimally.

Since someone brought this up publicly(much easier to get potential scum to admit a connection to something if they think it gets people to town read them), I have to ask:

Alisae, why did you give Chara that creature? Chara in particular. The real reason.

-Cerb

Interesting. Elaborate on the mistake further please.

Oh, just not preserving the ability to spring multivoting on someone they really wanted lynched. That's all.

-Cerb

pedit:@Skybird: Two reasons.

1) I know scum have factionals.
2) Every color in magic can remove creatures somehow, some more easily than others. It seems implausible that an entire scum team, with 9-12 cards between them, would not have at least one piece of creature removal that they've managed to generate the mana to use.

ppedit:@OTM:I don't believe your conclusions necessarily follow. Duplicating a teammate, who you know has an ability that allows you to steal mana, so you can prevent town slots from using their cards, seems good. I don't see any reason why the creature owner couldn't be scum with Micc/Nancy, unless you find the strength of the combination of their abilities(which were created before alignments were assigned) unlikely.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

From how I see it, it means if Alisae is scum it isn’t with Micc/Nancy. It also to me means the Creature owner if scum, is not aligned with Micc/Nancy.

Furthermore Alisae supposedly copied a role and stole mana. How would that apply to cards?

It doesn't.

Exactly my point.
The creatures are creature cards.

So the voting can’t be duplicated from what I see.

So no “mistake” exists.

...

Alisae did not play a creature card from Micc's hand.

She used an ability of Micc's that can give someone else a green elemental, and generates a mana for herself.

Cards have no relevance to this.

Token generation is a common green theme.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That burns the Creatures though and then town can prepare for that.

It would be a mistake to not play them here.

@Cerb I think there is something at play with my abilities I can’t say. I find that if Alisae and Nancy were scum together there is a huge misstep.

Yes, it burns them when it happens, but it didn't need to happen now.

Why are you being so obtuse? Obviously I'm fucking aware enough to realize the fallout of them utilizing the power in that way, but there's an immediate benefit to scum objectives to utilize those votes as a surprise, rather than having them sitting around.

-Cerb

pedit:

...

No? Wow. I was saying that if the person who controls the white creatures was scum, it would have been better to wait to play the crusade and summon the champion at a time when they wanted to secure a lynch out of nowhere. My statement had nothing ot do with any particular slot.

[Reasonably Rational]

...

OTM, why are you even still talking about the Miller claim? Where the fuck did that come from? That has absolutely no relevance to what I was just talking about.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh. My bad.

Sorry.

Please redirect that exasperation at OTM, to you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You asked me why I gave Chara a creature
I responded
I also elaborated on my Chara read
I was poked about miller shit
I responded.

Oh right.

So you didn't consider the fact that Chara can now never summon a creature without revealing their color identity and that the creature belongs to them?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I looked at my ability to give people creatures
I thought
"Cool I can make townie people a doublevoter"
Not
"By giving this person a creature, they can now never summon a creature without revealing their color identity."

Hmm.

@other people: Is it really that unusual to consider the ability Micc/Nancy has to be effectively a creature cop, in addition to the double voter thing?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Like, idk, it's hard to imagine that you didn't consider that at all. It's possible? Just less thought in it than I expected.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Really, there's nobody in the game who should have extra votes more than me, just because I won't use them. It's like minimal risk.

I wanna be able to keep my creatures secret though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I wanna play an actual cooperative game with all of you.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I wanna play an actual cooperative game with all of you.

-Cerb

What are the rules

Oh, idk. I was just thinking that I like you guys and it sucks that I can't trust anyone cuz we play an adversarial, deception focused game. That's all.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OH
Just hit me up whenever I like playing games.

^^ Sleep time tonight I think, I feel really exhausted, but poke me on the MS discord, I see you in there.

-Cerb

P.S. Drixx has disappeared on me again. I guess I need to text him. :-/

[Reasonably Rational]

Man I wish I was a vig.

The amount of absolutely wrong mechanics, assumptions, and crap on these few pages is staggering.

Varsoon May I please be a vig? Pretty please[/v]

I'm confused by this post.

Now look.

I know you guys don’t trust each other but I am begging here.

Work with Mastina + Yume or at least pretend to. Mastina is one of those people if backed into a corner she yells and flails hard as either alignment making reads even harder. Take a look at Beneath the Mask when Drixx thought she was scum and convinced me. Look at how that turned out. The only reason we won was the rest of town was good. Give Mastina time please Alisae/Taly.

This is a fucking awful post.

1.) I was a terrible hydra partner that game and was offline for weeks during it. I actually stopped playing mafia for months as a result. Like ... you got perhaps 1% of the kind of game buy in that I normally bring.

2.) It's not at all relevant what Mastina was or did in some other game. That cannot possibly inform us about her in

this

game. I know you're smart enough to know that, which makes me wonder why you are using terrible logic to justify telling someone to back off from a tiny amount of pressure on what is essentially a lurkslot.

OH
Just hit me up whenever I like playing games.

Ping me any time. I have a gigantic steam library and always up for playing with friends

OH
Just hit me up whenever I like playing games.

^^ Sleep time tonight I think, I feel really exhausted, but poke me on the MS discord, I see you in there.

-Cerb

P.S. Drixx has disappeared on me again. I guess I need to text him. :-/

I am quite visible I assure you.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Well done Icon, you managed to notice that I'm not sure if I think SD is scum or not, and that in the absence of certainty, I prefer to not lynch good players, especially not before they're caught up with the game!

Though to be fair, were I scum with her and inclined to try to save her(which I wouldn't be, because, saving teammates who get themselves lynched D1 is for losers), this would *probably* be similar to the method I'd employ,finding mechanical reasons to extend things and thus move us past the critical moments when sentiment is against them, while simultaneously doing things like dissuading people of the strength and certainty of their lynch, so a CW can be swung as soon as someone who isn't me starts pushing it.

So, your instincts are good, if this were the kind of thing I did, and I were scum with them. ^^

Speaking of CW's: @MC, didn't you mention something about having a counterwagon planned?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh.

I should probably also mention my distaste for Icon's plans as laid out. Lynch 1 strong player, if they flip town, lynch another strong player that's guiding the game, and then if they flip town, lynch *another* strong/vocal player.

...

Don't care so much about my place in that set of plans, but the SDvPH=TvS with such certainty that he wants to just lynch through the two of them certainly isn't acceptable.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Icon: You shouldn't change your reads based on the strength of the players in question. All I'm doing is pointing out that you've outlined a course of action that could easily be scum motivated, and I don't like that course of action because of the benefits to scum it offers.

@OTM: I don't recall Bryona outlining such a course of action? I believe they suggested lynching you, and SD, independently. It's the relational nature of Icon's suggestions that I find troubling. IF x, then y, if y, then z, where following that path to its end with no scum flips saves scum three shots they probably feel they need to take at some point.

So, the issue with Icon and Skybird is that for similar reasons for the likely existence of scum in the hood, multiple scum in the hood isn't especially likely. Possible, yes, but implausible. I haven't done the path, but I think my recall of probabilities is accurate enough a decade later that my thought is accurate. OTM, if you could confirm or deny my thought on that, purely from an objective, probabilistic standpoint?

@MC: about that CW? And I don't object, other than not being sure SS is the best person to vig. He might be just because of his supreme lurker status. Hurts me inside to deliberate call for a vig of an investigative, even a weak one.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's not even a me thing.
I don't think Mastina opens the game by making the Yume be invested into a push on someone as scum. It's an odd line of play.

~b

is this play alignment indicative? if yes, why is it indicative of town rather than scum? "odd" lines of play don't escape the minds of scum

It's odd for mastina, as part of a hydra with yume. That particular perspective is quite meta based. I mostly agree with it, though the telling thing for me is the choice of targets, rather than the fact of the push itself.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Icon: You shouldn't change your reads based on the strength of the players in question. All I'm doing is pointing out that you've outlined a course of action that could easily be scum motivated, and I don't like that course of action because of the benefits to scum it offers.

@OTM: I don't recall Bryona outlining such a course of action? I believe they suggested lynching you, and SD, independently. It's the relational nature of Icon's suggestions that I find troubling. IF x, then y, if y, then z, where following that path to its end with no scum flips saves scum three shots they probably feel they need to take at some point.

So, the issue with Icon and Skybird is that for similar reasons for the likely existence of scum in the hood, multiple scum in the hood isn't especially likely. Possible, yes, but implausible. I haven't done the path, but I think my recall of probabilities is accurate enough a decade later that my thought is accurate. OTM, if you could confirm or deny my thought on that, purely from an objective, probabilistic standpoint?

@MC: about that CW? And I don't object, other than not being sure SS is the best person to vig. He might be just because of his supreme lurker status. Hurts me inside to deliberate call for a vig of an investigative, even a weak one.
-Cerb

Please reread the question.

Taly head of Purple Heart not Bryona is chaining lynches IMHO, with their “If OTM is alive wagon it day two”
Multiple scum in the hood is very unlikely. Agreed possible but very unlikely I have to go to work but the odds of multiple scum in the hood is low. Hence why if SD flips scum which I very much doubt I would then have more data that suggests a low probability world based on heat mapping.

Ah. Still lacks the relational nature of my objection to Icon, but yes, that is worse than simply saying "I believe x and y are scum". I will check the relevant portions of their ISO to see exactly what they said and give you a better response later.

I expect to be less active than normal during the working hours today, big things are happening tomorrow and we have lots to do.

-Cerb

pedit: @MC: Gamma's originally called out the wagon on him once it got the first ~3 votes, asking for further explanation. Are you disregarding that?

[Reasonably Rational]

Because it forces Yume into following up on the push on me.
It's a line of play you'd make with a more confident/stronger scum player as a hydra partner that can easily make up a case on anyone.

But I don't think that's a line of play you make with Yume. Considering how easily I could have just decided to fight that and force a 1v1.

~B

i can't comment too much on this because i don't think i've played with or played much with yume before. however, i think it's safe to say that mastin has been the primary poster of the hydra, despite mastin saying in the beginning that the plan was for yume to be the primary poster and for mastin to take a more laid back role. yume hasn't even had to commit to a 1v1.

Neither Mastin nor Yume has committed to much of anything. Yume has gone quiet, and Mastin is 70 pages behind, which is plenty of time for her to craft whatever positions she wants to hold by the time she catches up(again, as either alignment).

-Cerb

pedit: Agreed with the thought that Yume is forming reads and mastin pushing them. At the least, Yume has reads formed and has told mastin those reads, and mastin is actively working to see her hydra partners position without revealing dissonance by outright disagreeing with any position Yume holds that she doesn't agree with.

[Reasonably Rational]

Neither Mastin nor Yume has committed to much of anything. Yume has gone quiet, and Mastin is 70 pages behind, which is plenty of time for her to craft whatever positions she wants to hold by the time she catches up(again, as either alignment).

it baffles me that you can write something like this and not be suspicious of the slot.

There's a rather significant gulf between "suspicious" and "sure enough is scum that I want to lynch them".

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If I thought nothing they had done was suspect, and there was no reason to think they weren't town, I would be very vocally opposed to this.

I'm not.

-Cerb

pedit: Not going to tell you, because I've repeatedly said that I won't be sharing that information. Well, I didn't explicitly say that, but I did say that I don't form strong enough opinions to push anything on D1 generally.

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, perhaps I didn't phrase my previous post the right way. I should have said that there's a significant gulf between "has taken actions for which I can see scum motivation" and "sure enough is scum that I want to lynch them".

-Cerb

pedit: Finally, Venmar sees the light and goes to sniff someone else's ass. @MC:I'll ping Drixx and see where he is on Micc and try to get him to take some time to talk. I'm fairly certain his expressed dislike for a wagon on Micc was because he was very suspicious of Chara at that moment, so he was saying that he opposed any other wagon because he preferred Chara, not because he actually had a positive read on Micc.

[Reasonably Rational]

OH, also, in 4 hours and 14 minutes, I'll stop being opposed to ending the day, because I do think the benefit of my additional questions might be starting to get outweighed by the circular conversations going on. It's been 21 pages since I suggested we talk more about things other than the slots we've been focused on, and it's only now that we're barely starting to discuss Gamma and Icon to any notable degree.

Also, if you can manage to wrangle up 8 slots who want to lynch someone(not 8 votes, 8 SLOTS) after that 4 hours and 14 minutes pass, I'll hammer whatever needs to be hammered. I'm only making this offer because I'm certain that nobody will be able to get 8 people to vote for anyone I actively want alive. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey cerb, are you part of a PT for this game that is not the white hood or a hydra PT?

I do not have access to any PT's related to this game other than my hydra PT.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(Also, Varsoon definitely won't let you use your lie detect on that statement, so I wouldn't recommend you try).

What's most important here though is your statement that it's a "white hood".

Does that mean you agree with my reasoning regarding the hood, or do you have independent justifications for coming to that conclusion?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, a question about the lie detect: If you submit something which is AI, did Varsoon tell you what happens? Will you simply be told you can't lie detect the statement, and get to choose another? Will it always come up as true? Always come up as false? Or something else?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

ok, Cerb, i'll try this instead. pretend you're sure i'm town, what do you want me doing? i need to focus up so i can be caught up.
i really want to be knee-deep in this game, because i love the mod and the playerlist, and for some reason that's fallen away.

also, if there's a hood, i want in 100%. i like hoods.

Really, I want a lot more discussion and thought put into the current nonentities of Dunnstral, Micc/nancy, and Icon(and A50 to a lesser extent). I don't have enough firm positions expressed on those slots to really consider today useful when it comes to determining relationships that involve those slots on later days.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean you can rephrase the question if you really wanted to not include factional PTs.
Then it isn't AI.

~B

Yep. If you explicitly exclude factionals than it's acceptable, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't SS's objective. I will gladly rephrase my response though to exclude factional's so it is lie detectable.

For me, I couldn't make that guess because it's related to a single slot. I can guess that hoods with certain characteristics exist though, but those characteristics can't be alignment related. So, I couldn't guess that a hood exists with one scum and two town slots in it, but I could guess that a hood exists where all the members share a color identity.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Excluding factional PT's, I do not have access to any PT's related to this game other than my hydra PT.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think that's the best I could do? Maybe there's better phrasing, but I think that accomplishes the objective if SS just wants to confirm that I'm not part of any PT's.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, you need to clarify if your ability can lie detect things which the person you're lie detecting has no knowledge of...because I suspect we can't use it to duplicate what my ability can do with regards to the setup.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

...

gactphadstpksdatwpi

This makes me unhappy.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Like.

GG.

I literally don't care anymore, too demoralizing having all my plans fucked by people being too fucking stupid to not keep people away from being easily lynched, when I specifically brought up the risk of multivoting, and then having my *future* plans also fucked.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways, yes, obviously the artifact was a fucking scum action.

Read OTM's fucking role PM. Scum used the artifact, were given a PT and were thus revealed, and then had to kill them as a result.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Whatever, lynch fucking PH.

UG artifact cast, everything about their role screams UG.

I was going to have Nancy give PH a creature to confirm that they were the owner of the artifact, but I don't fucking care anymore.

I also have no reason to make the day longer anymore.

As a matter of fact, I'd rather have the day end before we hit 48 hours in it, because if we don't, I have to target someone with something I don't want to use.
VOTE: Purple Heart

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

As a matter of fact, btw, the artifact was a scum MISTAKE to make a 1 for 1 trade that they might very well get to get away with because of this shitty thing that just happened.

-Cerb

pedit: Don't fucking care MC, I had a way to check, and that way is fucked now, and I'm over it.

[Reasonably Rational]

And yes, the options are a W player or a UG player.

Still don't care.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Who fucking knows creature? I had a way to check, the way to check is gone now, because all the things that were in play before are now gone(maybe they'll be back later and we can check then, but *shrug*).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

CLAIM:

Alisae

and I had our roles CHANGED. We have this odd dual role:

Pacificist: ((What We Don't Have Right Now))

- You must sign ALL hydra posts. EACH hydra head has their OWN vote.

Genocide: ((What We're Plagued With))

- The

LOWER

posting head, is the

ONLY

head that can post.

My vote is worth HALF A NORMAL VOTE.

As of right now, I am the

ONLY

head to post

AT ALL

. Any and all post's by

Alisae

will be removed. I have gotten mod-confirmation that I can post from my MAIN account. This happened because

Alisae

had more posts than I do.

Remember, I am

Taly

, but I am playing as

PURPLE HEART

.

I have no clue what else has or may have happened.

Alisae

and I were going to use

Learn From The Past

; a spellcard that allowed us see

ALL

spells that were used that night. Now, we cannot continue with that plan. It would cost

1 BLUE mana, and 2 of any other color to cast.

We also had 2 other spells:
- (Enchantment) Quiet Contemplation:

After we use a non-Creature card in conjunction with this; this allowed us to remove ANY and ALL voting abilities from a creature in play. It would've costed us

1 BLUE mana, and 2 of any other color to cast.

- (Creature) Clever Impersonator:

We used this on a Spell Card in play, and we copy that spell for own use. It would've costed us

2 BLUE mana, or 2 of any other color to cast.

If we do not use our copy abilities, we gain 2 White Mana, and 1 Blue Mana.

I'm 100% certain that scum powerplayed that quintuple vote on a creature to hammer

Shining Dreamers

, TO scumpaint the people and hydra's on the wagon.

OnTheMark's

death, followed by our conflict late D1 solidifies this to me. Furthermore,

Alisae

and I believe that it's possible

OnTheMark

was killed for knowing who played that artifact.

Please, I'm asking everyone to be patient with me. There's 2 heads, and I'm having to speak for both of us. If anyone has any questions, I'll gladly answer, but I'm filtering information through two mediums while formulating my own.

...

Also UW?

Just like OTM?

...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Everyone had fucking role changes, obviously Taly.

And no, we're not going to mass claim willy nilly, when we don't even know if we're going to continue to have these roles.

-Cerb

pedit: Mmm, touche, I apologize for being dumb. ^^

[Reasonably Rational]

@MC: Didn't care, because it wasn't important yet.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and the plane change is also further confirmation that the artifact was a scum action, and that scum are either in charge of what plane we go to next, *or* simply have advance knowledge of what plane we'll be at.

So.

I seriously just want this day over as soon as possible because I don't actually want to play this particular game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Nope, you can just vote PH, and I'll be happy! They're even W, which is what you expected from the person with the sword of body and mind!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You know the worst thing about this?

We didn't draw a fucking card.

I'm fucking pissed. The best part of the fucking game, and we don't get to do it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: If you're right, and our roles and the theme will actually change every time, then I hate this entire game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Taly didn't claim that, because somehow they thought claiming all their MECHANICS was less important than claiming their flavor, which by itself should concern you.

-Cerb

@baku: You know how I play mafia, this entire concept is anethema to me and the way I play the game.

[Reasonably Rational]

Let me clarify: The fact that they thought claiming their abilities and shit should happen before claiming flavor is fucking weird.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Serious question: is everyone having fun?

If you're not having fun, let's talk about it and figure out how to make this fun. I think Micc left because he wasn't having fun, and that sucks.
-Cerb

If anyone remembers this, I'd like to answer myself, and say that no, I'm not having fun.

I'll be reading, and will post later, please don't direct anything at me so I don't feel I have to respond to something that's making me unhappy.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Just thought I'd share this with everyone, since I told it to Varsoon:

If it turns out this game is as Chara guessed, which won't be confirmed until tomorrow, I'm going to be replacing out as soon as the next day phase starts.

Haven't talked with Drixx, dunno if he'll want to continue by himself or not.

Just thought it would be best to give you all warning so you can gauge the value of interacting with me today.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm having trouble expressing how disappointed and unhappy I am, and it's currently interfering with me actually doing anything.

I would answer you, MC, if not for that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I've never replaced out of a game, and Varsoon assures me that I will enjoy the setup as a whole, even if things aren't as I expected.

Because of this, there is now a non-zero, rather than zero, percent chance of me staying in this game.

I'm still really unhappy and don't actually want to play right now, but we'll see.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, so nothings changed from the rules for the M:tG setup as far as the likelihood of roles changing etc is concerned.

Considering nobody previously brought up the possibility of things changing this way, even those who have stated they had prior knowledge of Varsoon floating a similar idea to this before, everyone who now suddenly believes we should mass claim(read, the PH slot), needs to explain what the difference is between yesterday and today, because that particular mechanic certainly isn't different, it's just reflavored.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

"PLANECHASE"

When the game begins, all players assume the role of 'Planeswalkers' on the plane of Dominaria.
However, at the start of each new day, all players will begin in a new plane.
Each plane represents a different world or universe in the multiverse, and will come with its own set of unique rules specific to that plane.
These unique planar rules will often influence player's mana growth, mana use, and spell card effects.
While some of these changes are incredibly drastic and border on what may be considered 'bastard' by some, this is not a bastard game.[/spoiler][/align]

"That's the expression of someone who's died twice in a row."

When the game begins, all players assume the role of characters in Undertale.
However, at the start of each new day, a new 'playthrough' of the game will begin.
Each 'playhtrough' represents reloading a 'SAVE' file in order to influence the end of the game, and will come with its own set of unique rules specific to that playthrough.
These unique 'playthrough' rules will often influence player's roles.
While some of these changes are incredibly drastic and border on what may be considered 'bastard' by some, this is not a bastard game.[/spoiler]

So the only difference is that the new one explicitly says roles, where the other one explicitly said everything *but* roles.

Which, upon reading, makes me even more unhappy with the game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Titus: Nothing is bastard about it.

It's just very annoying that it would have been VERY easy to just add the word "roles" after mana etc., and then omg this isn't a surprise and you fucked up if you didn't read properly.

I feel deceived, instead of simply unobservant.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To mine and Alisae's understanding, our roles will

NOT

stop changing.

Chara

, flavor

DOES

matter because like

MathBlade

, we have

WHITE and BLUE mana

.

Umm... this is a scum post by Taly. It was noted over and over that the M:TG roles were created

BEFORE

alignments were given, based upon the mana choices we made. That means that the MTG color flavor only means something if Varsoon lied to us.

Taly (and certainly Alisae) are both engaged enough to know that, but are trying to push like OTM's flip clears them.

That's a scum move.

VOTE: Taly

My power went out!!! Im on Mobile.

Alisae: Our roles aren't permanent and are always everchanging due to the "THAT'S THE EXPRESSION OF SOMEONE WHO'S DIED TWICE IN A ROW." Mechanic. This is the affects of that mechanic, so we are likely not keeping our roles, hence why we should massclaim our MtG roles and our Undertale roles, we are likely not keeping these roles.Our flavor for MtG is Narset Transcendant and our flavor for Undertale for Pacafist is Dogamy & Dogressa. Our flavor for Genocide is just Dogamy

OnTheMark had White and Blue mana JUST LIKE US.

There's NO reason NOT to claim!! This mechanic was stated in POST 8.

Chara, my posts are directed at everyone. But I think Alise wanted you to see that.

I'm vaguely skimming the thread atm as I have to let all of you know this info

This is the 2nd time Taly has tried to advance the idea that color identity from the MTG phase (which were all created before alignment was randomly assigned, per the mod) clears their slot.

We have a scumbutt slippin all over the place here folks.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Our vote was already on them Drixx.

Nobody else cares.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Er idk how to say this without it sounding like a fake claim.
But I kinda have 2 guilties atm lol.

~B

...

Then fucking claim them.

Either you don't fucking hint at them at all, and you extra information, or you fucking claim them outright.

You don't pussyfoot around after having informed scum that you're specifically digging for them to slip more information about their teammates.

Again, if this phase gets to 48 hours, it is not good for our slot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, and you just fucked catching the other scum today, based on their associatives with your guilties, by stating it outright for no fucking reason 4 hours into the phrase.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So is this... a normal thing for Varsoon games? I feel like it is. How long till it's back to MtG?

This is not normal for Varsoon games but it's prefectly reasonable

Going to have to disagree. I read a few thousand posts and caught up with the game twice during the first day because I signed up for a M:TG themed game. This is honestly a game Varsoon should have just asked Cerb and I to review or spectate or something. Anyone who has gone into one of our hydra PTs and seen the irc/slack logs should realize why.

[Reasonably Rational]

So is this... a normal thing for Varsoon games? I feel like it is. How long till it's back to MtG?

This is not normal for Varsoon games but it's prefectly reasonable

Going to have to disagree. I read a few thousand posts and caught up with the game twice during the first day because I signed up for a M:TG themed game. This is honestly a game Varsoon should have just asked Cerb and I to review or spectate or something. Anyone who has gone into one of our hydra PTs and seen the irc/slack logs should realize why.

~D

Because Drixx is bad at signing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Gamma, you need to elaborate on how you get your results.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, and you just fucked catching the other scum today, based on their associatives with your guilties, by stating it outright for no fucking reason 4 hours into the phrase.

-Cerb

Sorry I have literally 0 idea how to approach this day phase when like none of the town want to cooperate.

~B

You should have shut up until everyone spoke if you wanted to get more information and people weren't cooperating, instead of just saying that to what is effectively no benefit.

Yes, you might get some reactions, but it would be way stronger to specifically push people you suspect of being teammates of your confirmed scum to condemn said scum, to either strengthen or weaken your scumread on them, at the least.

Now you can't do that nearly as effectively.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, only like half the game has posted so far. You can't even say the town won't cooperate when you've only heard from half the game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The night action results.

The day action ones sound like you just get a correct/incorrect back.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm finding this ever so much more interesting at the moment:




~D

[Reasonably Rational]

The night action results.

The day action ones sound like you just get a correct/incorrect back.

-Cerb

The track I get either who they visited or no action I believe. It says it's a track so I don't think Varsoon would just make it "they acted" when that's not the standard usage of the role

Using the words "I believe" means you didn't ask the mod, or you don't want to be called to account when things are actually different than you claimed. I suspect you didn't ask.

If you could, ask Varsoon the form your answers would come in, and how they would be arranged if you received multiple positives.

For multiple negatives, what form was your result in?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean I have to do the following things.

All within 48 hours.
Get my town reads to cooperate.
Sell you on my reads being correct.
Make sure people don't waste day actions.

Like idk it's hard to play this correctly.

~B

Eh, you could have just told me that what you're doing is more important than rushing the end of the day, and I'd have been like eh, maybe, we'll see.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@cerb/snarky did your lie detect give you mana?

~B

I did not have a lie detect, and as I previously stated, my ability did not generate mana.

@Taly: I'm well aware that I'm among those they found uncooperative, which is immaterial to the salience of my point that there were plenty of people who hadn't spoken yet, who could easily be among those who'd be willing to follow their lead.

Alisae, I'm also reading the mechanics post, clearly, and they don't support the suppositions you're making, in the context of the previous mechanics posts.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Roles created before alignments.

Why would B&M hood you when they could hood their teammates instead? Other than a clause specifically saying the ability could only be used on people who you did not already share a PT with.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Taly: I already did? They're identical, except one specifically references the unique characteristics of the game(spells, mana generation, etc), and the other references the *only* characteristic of this game, one's role.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Roles created before alignments.

To be clear, all roles for Undertale Mafia were made AFTER alignments were assigned.

Why would B&M hood you when they could hood their teammates instead? Other than a clause specifically saying the ability could only be used on people who you did not already share a PT with.

-Cerb

Alisae:

Easy. They didn't think about it.

Alisae:

I mean I am interpretting that mechanic as "each day phase there the game/theme changes and we play a different setup"

Alisae, you're making a dumb assumption. Never make assumptions. There is no basis for you to assume that's the case. There is also no basis to assume that it isn't the case, particularly since the original mechanics information did not mention that roles could change. That throws all other "planeschase" like mechanics into doubt regarding how informative they'll be, or how accurately they'll reflect what could possibly happen.

We're talking about M:tG mechanics, not Undertale mechanics, so the fact that undertale roles were made *after* alignments were assigned is irrelevant.

Do you have so little respect for the players in that slot(and their teammates, whoever they might be) to think they would just leave a trail leading to themselves like that? Particularly since it was so obvious that the artifact was played by scum, and the board was wiped, preventing it from being tracked to them...which would indicate enough foresight that they were concerned with it being tracked to them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A50 will be lynched within the next 1.5 day phases if I'm still alive and he remains terrible.

And yes, he's terrible so far.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Do you think how a lot of my reads revolve around scum being "too self aware to do X" would mean that they really just didn't expect me to scum read them for that?

~B

pedit: <3

Here's the thing man.

There's so many other players they could have put into a PT with themselves that way.

People who are less observant, and less vocal, and less RISKY...even ignoring the teammate option.

You...just don't make sense as the person to use to set that ability up.

Also, what was the benefit of timing it that way? Random knows Varsoon allows the submission of actions with triggers, the only timed thing we knew about was my question asking ability. Had up to 49 hours to separate themselves from that action in your mind if they just let me get the one additional question.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The answer to your question, Taly, will be no. Because I literally told him I'd replace out if shit changed again the same way, and he said he hoped I'd stay, and couldn't tell me anything more.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That's not quite an answer, though?

The conversation continued, with me lambasting him because I would have been happy playing a game advertised as having changing roles, but because it wasn't advertised that way I felt like I had something very enjoyable taken from me(not to mention all the time and effort Drixx and I always invest into figuring out how to best use our ability), and he apologized for things not being the way I expected, and for his inability to advertise the game in a way that accurate reflected what would happen for design reasons.

That last part is why he won't answer your questions. You can always ask though. ^^ I just already did effectively, so, *shrug*.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon, can you clarify what exactly changes with each dayphase?[/b][/size]

No, because that aspect of the setup is not intended to be public information.

Yay I'm right again!



-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Varsoon: When someone flips, will all of their previous role cards flip as well?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Gamma, I need answers on how your tracking results would have been returned for multiple positives.

Also, the questions Taly is asking are reasonable ones. You should probably answer those too.

@MC: You should explain how you screwed up your interpretation of a mod result?

-Cerb

pedit: @B: I know they wouldn't be, but random(and shiro) have both been in numerous PT's with me in previous Varsoon games...and it's the sort of thing I've talked about in those games.

They know.

[Reasonably Rational]

Also @MC: Why is gamma still scum after you admit your interpretation of your varsoon result was wrong? That would indicate that whatever you did, the results confirmed them as scum, which could easily mean the corollary is true, an opposite results confirms them as town. That's not guaranteed, of course, but I believe you understand my point.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And even if they weren't aware of the trigger option, btw, they could have just *waited* to do it. Again, the only thing that I'm aware of that gave them any reason to rush was my new question unlocking.

If Nancy had expressed a scumread on them I could see them rushing, to avoid having their mana stolen, but in the absence of that, the rush is just really bad play, uncharacteristic of both the plays in the B&M slot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I wanna hear from more people than just the three of us. Recommend we go silent until the morning and let everyone else weigh in.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

How does a Gamma scum flip impact whether or not they needed to rush the mastina lynch?

~B

It doesn't, you're misreading what I wrote, and I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion so I don't know how to correct it. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And even if they weren't aware of the trigger option, btw, they could have just *waited* to do it. Again, the only thing that I'm aware of that gave them any reason to rush was my new question unlocking.

Sorry, since Gamma was the 2nd largest wagon at the time and people were generally ok with the idea of lynching him.
Do you think that maybe they were worried Mastina would not be at L-3/The Creature unvoted if they waited?

~B

Depends on how much of their team was already on the wagon. I doubt they were concerned about the creature unvoting though, given that the individual who controlled it had already doubled down with the crusade.

IDK, I feel like the wagon diffusing within, say, 24 hours, was pretty unlikely. I was pretty clearly only passively opposing it, rather than actively doing so, nobody currently voting was expressing any wavering of their position, nobody was strongly defending them, and mastin kept digging the hole deeper.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Me and Claire decided claiming this was correct. (lol day roleblocker if thats a thing).

We can put 3 people in a hood RBing all of them.

We kinda want to use this to win the game on the spot.

~B

I kind of want you to use this on us to prevent us from using the thing I don't want to use.

Requires Drixx input to know if that's the right call.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's a night RB.
Your action is a day action I thought.

~B

Must be targeted with 48h of the day started, automatic targeting using parameters I won't share, if we don't make a choice by then, night resolution. If the day ends before we hit 48h, no target is submitted.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I value a RB kinda highly.
Maybe you should fish for a vanilla neighborizor to target you.
Otherwise I'll talk to Maki if we should comply.

Lynch Gamma
Block Baku/Nancy/Venmar
A50 literally can't act tonight.

I think we win off this >__> (Nancy/Venmar subject to change after I talk to Maki)

Weird choice, having Gamma as lynched instead of blocked when you claim to have an argument you strongly believe makes Baku scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Me and Claire decided claiming this was correct. (lol day roleblocker if thats a thing).

We can put 3 people in a hood RBing all of them.

We kinda want to use this to win the game on the spot.

~B

I kind of want you to use this on us to prevent us from using the thing I don't want to use.

Requires Drixx input to know if that's the right call.

-Cerb

I wholeheartedly agree.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

who hasn't posted yet this dayphase?

Who hasn't weighed in on this B&M push even though they've posted?

Oh right.

You.

Care to remedy that oversight?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

don't feel like dealing with how you're feeling right now, Cerb. was just a question.

That wasn't a "I'm upset" post, that was a "someone claimed a guilty/suspicious behavior on the part of someone else, and I think you're aware of that, but you haven't commented on it, so I want to know what you're thinking" post.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, everyone but Nancy has posted, based on the activity overview.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i know about the "guilty" but i don't know the specifics and so don't have an opinion. but i think Purple Heart is scum.

i didn't even want to post today, but whatever, i thought i needed to ask the above. i guess i read your question badly.

pedit: thanks.

<3

Go feel better Chara. If you feel like posting more, whenever you come back I'd like to know your reasoning for thinking Purple Heart is scum right now. (I don't remember how strongly your position on them as scum was yesterday)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A50 - How often do we use our vote? Just play as if you did and convince people to go with you.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

So much anger.

A50, are you okay man? You've been unlike yourself this entire game. I don't mean in terms of play, but in terms of character. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, a couple corrections: First, Beeboy expected the individual who cast that spell to be either UG or W. Not only UG. The timing, combined with the flavor claim, is what led him to the conclusions he arrived at. Second, nobody ever had many votes yesterday, other than SD. That doesn't, however, change the fact that the Gamma wagon *did* have the most momentum other than the SD wagon ....as in, the wagon would have likely(imo) overtaken the SD wagon before the day ended if not for the sudden addition of 2 votes to that wagon. There may be some exaggeration going on, but I don't think there's outright lying.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And...one last thing, about your assumption regarding beeboys reasoning for why a card is in a certain deck:

There are three reasons for an artifact like that one to be in a certain deck.

1) it represents the color(s) of that deck(UG)
2) it represents the point where those colors overlap in magics color wheel(W).
3) it represents a type of historical deck that varsoon is recreating in the game.(like the champion+crusade was clearly a WW(White Weenie), or GW aggro, style deck)

I don't recall what decks that sword was historically played in, I believe there are other swords that saw a lot more play, so the belief that it was UG or W is perfectly reasonable to me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Venmar, can you express your position on the B&M/A50/MC/Gamma situation?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Venmar, can you express your position on the B&M/A50/MC/Gamma situation?

-Cerb

in the words of gamma, read the thread, i have

No, you haven't. You stated a position, based on the situation as previously stated, but you have not expressed whether or not your position has changed now that the fundamental reason for MC's suspicion of B&M is no longer accurate(or at least, is only possibly accurate in universes where A50 and B&M are scum together(which isn't impossible), or A50 has such an incredibly strong townread on B&M that they're willing to lie to defend them).

That's what I'm interested in.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The important points being:

Do you still believe B&M is the best lynch for today, in light of that information?
Do you think A50 is more or less likely to be scum now?
Do you believe there's any possibility of some subset of those four slots being scum *together*, and either working to coordinate distancing, or enacting bussing plans instituted once OTM/MC were both revealed as threats to B&M?
Do you think MC's reasoning that it's more valuable to lynch someone besides the person he thinks is guilty, and RB the less probable scum target, again, based on the reasoning he used, is something that comes from town!MC?


I'm sure there are other questions, but I think you get the point.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Spoiler: For Varsoon(and anyone who played Bloodborne Mafia:

Run starts 18 minutes and 16 seconds in.

^^

Worth watching. Trust.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think you should worry less about my ability, that is, don't make decisions hastily for my benefit. It's a sucky thing, but not without the chance for positive EV.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

K I am also taking Nancy off the table then and will push Gamma for lynch.

~B

I'm saying take nothing off the table right now, if you don't have to target quickly.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To be clear A50, you weren't being tormented over claiming, you were being tormented over not making a vote to prove your claim when you made it.

Pedantic, but yeah.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To be clear A50, you weren't being tormented over claiming, you were being tormented over not making a vote to prove your claim when you made it.

Pedantic, but yeah.

-Cerb

Cerb my question? Do you have any PTs?

~Titus

I have one, it was gained almost immediately after I made my statement to be lie detected, and it wasn't created by me. I do know the source of it though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To clarify, I know the *claimed* source of it, not necessarily the real source of it.

So, anyways, let's think about the swap.

If any town slot caused the swap to pacifist from genocide, please state such very soon, otherwise we'll have to assume the swap was made by scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To be clear A50, you weren't being tormented over claiming, you were being tormented over not making a vote to prove your claim when you made it.

Pedantic, but yeah.

-Cerb

Why are you ignoring the point? The point is someone out there stole my vote and is refusing to acknowledge their responsibility for it, which is making the thread overly toxic and they seem content with that. It's even worse than outright faking a guilty on someone. At least if you fake a guilty you ARE taking the responsibility for the push/lynch.

Your point is pretty obvious and not really worth addressing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If someone had claimed responsibility and you were pushing them on the basis of that, then sure, I could see reason to talk it out with you, but since we don't know who that individual is, and the roles we had that allowed that theft to happen are gone, what exactly are you hoping to accomplish by redirecting the conversation to this?

Honestly, it really seems like you simply want that action painted as definitely scum, so that way the next logical conclusion, that you must be town because it was used on you, is reached by others, without you having to actually explicitly state it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If any town slot caused the swap to pacifist from genocide, please state such very soon, otherwise we'll have to assume the swap was made by scum.

it was me, but the swap happening was scum's choice. they already know this, so i'm telling the rest of you.
every member of the scumteam voted on it. because all of them voted yes, we swapped to pacifist. i don't know why they chose that, but it could be an indication genocide mode is not as scumsided as it looked. i was expecting them to reject it, actually.

Umm..

Okay.

First of all, Genocide is CLEARLY intended to be townsided.

Know why? Because it's a balancing mechanism. When town takes some hits, they get access to what Varsoon believes to be the stronger abilities, and/or scum lose access to their stronger abilities.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, why the change? Why give them the option, when MC had a plan to deal with a specific subset of suspects?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm basing it purely on mod meta, not my own role.

How did this vote thing you did work? Also, why did you rush to trigger the ability so early in the day, if you knew that if they accepted the day would reset.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR, do you still have access to said PT? Please ask Varsoon if you are considered as having access. We want to deliver hugs but hugs are not a thing if you have access to said PT.

~Titus

I definitely still have access to the PT. I can post in it etc.

-Cerb

pedit: There's a certain critical mass of misplays where I stop accepting things were misplays, and have to assume they were actions taken by scum. That's why I dig into the reasoning behind why things are done the way they're done.

How do you not know how it works? Did the ability give a time limit for the scum response? Was it just that as soon as they all voted, it would take effect? Was provision made for a tied vote? How about if the day ended before the votes all came in? Were there any limitations on when you were allowed to trigger it?

[Reasonably Rational]

@Bronya: I mean, they did already say they had a PT with B&M, right? :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What Taly said.

The real annoying thing isn't that the theme changed. It's that I LIKED WHAT WE WERE DOING BEFORE, AND NOW IT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I don't want this fucking theme. Undertale is a great game, but that doesn't make up for losing out on what I was actually enjoying.

Basically, what you're proposing is trapping us in this hell for longer, which is something I don't see a benefit to.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb, did you do it?

Answer the thing? Nope. Too busy to spend time on it, my first thought is clearly not correct, haven't put any more thought into it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And I have more pressing things to spend my mafia time on when I actually manage to get Drixx to talk to me. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What Taly said.

The real annoying thing isn't that the theme changed. It's that I LIKED WHAT WE WERE DOING BEFORE, AND NOW IT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I don't want this fucking theme. Undertale is a great game, but that doesn't make up for losing out on what I was actually enjoying.

Basically, what you're proposing is trapping us in this hell for longer, which is something I don't see a benefit to.

-Cerb

Well if that's the case then I'm not a good lynch, shoot.

So, this is, tonally, pretty legit.

I was pretty concerned that scum!you's team went with the swap to pacifist because gamma was a potential lynch, and they had some ability to make you lynchproof in exchange for their nk, with some extra nk's later or something to make up for it, or it was just a play o get town cred for being lynchproof and demonstrating it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Taly: Gamma is saying his role makes him lynchproof, so upon being lynched he won't die, and no NK will happen as a result of that ability being triggered, as well as the new save not being loaded...again, because of the effects of his lynchproof thing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm of the opinion that scum don't shoot Math unless they were outed by the artifact hood ability Math has. Drixx and I viewed them as among the least likely slots to be NK'd. Math was doing a lot to generate pages and pages of posts that help to create apathy in the town, without being listened to enough to represent a credible threat.

Does this make it likely that A50 is scum? Unfortunately, yes. He may not be the scum who cast that artifact, but if he isn't, he's protecting whoever that slot is.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh.

Other possibility:

Scum rolecopped Math during the day and thus knew that they would end up in a PT with whoever cast the artifact(and it wasn't one of them) and they went ahead and framed that person.

Very unlikely, but it has to be noted...and I don't think many people in this game would actually take that line.

-Cerb

pedit: So, I guess I'll also mention this whole thing we were doing too: We're in a PT with B&M. As I said, we joined it right after I made the lie detect post. The PT was created at 12:30 p.m., and the artifact was cast at 1 p.m., so further evidence that even if B&M didn't cast the spell, they were rushing to create a bunch of hoods FOR SOME REASON immediately before the artifact was cast and the day ended. We had an ability to send a (short) message to someone, and we told B&M that we were intending to use that message to tell Nancy to give a creature to PH, because they sounded like a good possibility for a UG slot, and giving a creature to them would either clear or condemn them as far as casting the sword was concerned.

B&M did nothing to dissuade us from taking that set of actions. They claim that they didn't understand that UG meant Blue Green, so they didn't realize that there was a connection to their colors there...but they also didn't ask for clarification at all. They also made a post that they thought the case on OTM was "legit", and basically said a few different things supporting the idea that the person who cast that artifact could be town.

In short, I'm currently of the opinion that B&M and A50 are scum, have thought B&M was probable scum since MC made their post about them claiming their color identity to them, and was hoping if I pushed back enough other people would come out and weigh in on the slot to actually get some more associatives.

[Reasonably Rational]

Main concern is that it just happens that Varsoon came around to resolve stuff at once, and the order the hoods were created etc and the end of the day is 100% a coincidence caused by the timing of action submissions. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't think gamma is obvious scum, but I do have reservations about the slot, notably the pressure on the slot, scum decision to change modes, followed by him miraculously becoming lynchproof.

The issue with that though is that it makes B&M look better...except for the part where Gamma tried to get himself lynched..but he gave up so easily, that I don't fucking know.

I'm not expressing myself well, but I think you can follow the reasoning for everything.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, let's think about this.

What's the fallout of a town flip on the part of either A50 or B&M? Does a townflip on either clear the other in your mind?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Answer the thing? Nope. Too busy to spend time on it, my first thought is clearly not correct, haven't put any more thought into it.

-Cerb

see if you can get Drixx to help you, it's important. i wouldn't send you a time waster. thanks for looking at it.

I already told Drixx about it, all he said was "Hmm, that's a good riddle". Then I said like 20 lines of stuff about the game, and he didn't answer.



-Cerb

pedit: A50 flipping town...means that a town slot cast that artifact, so it was not a scum thing period, just a dumb town thing, yes? B&M flipping town...makes A50 unlikely to be scum as well? Well. Maybe not. The action is still scummy etc. Can either flip scum, and have the other be town, if things happen the other way.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh. Can anyone confirm that they had a way to generate a shitload of mana for themselves or another person? I had a spell that cost more than I could possibly make in a day, and B&M claimed to have a spell that cost *twice* as much mana as they could generate.

So, either we're going back to magic, or somebody had an ability to create a bunch of mana, or varsoon put in red herring spells that we were never meant to cast(which is a dick move).

@B&M:

Main reason I can think of is A50 could easily get away with it, with all the confusion and noise caused by that claim and their accompanying AtE.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh. Can anyone confirm that they had a way to generate a shitload of mana for themselves or another person? I had a spell that cost more than I could possibly make in a day, and B&M claimed to have a spell that cost *twice* as much mana as they could generate.

So, either we're going back to magic, or somebody had an ability to create a bunch of mana, or varsoon put in red herring spells that we were never meant to cast(which is a dick move).

@B&M:

Main reason I can think of is A50 could easily get away with it, with all the confusion and noise caused by that claim and their accompanying AtE.

-Cerb

(sorry, thought I had already signed before the @B&M, which was a pedit)

[Reasonably Rational]

i'm not covering for Almost if he doesn't want to try and solve the game going forward.

i even gave him his vote and powers back.

if he still wants to get mislynched at that point, i can't do anything. :<

all i ask is we use as much of the day as is possible, and i'll sheep whatever you want, beeboy.

Elaborate. I understand you're referring to the route change, which you claim to not actually have made the decision on...but are you saying you activated it for A50's sake?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Eh, we could go back and forth to MTG and other themes. Nothing preventing that MC.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Eh, you should probably just tell me those things anyways if you want town to win.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

As the reason they were killed? 0% chance.

As a possibility regarding the game state? Maybe? I'd need to refresh exactly where they were at the end of the day, though I seem to recall everything they were throwing out had Skybird and myself as scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If you're specifically asking about their suspicions regarding MC, that's also a possibility I've considered, and haven't reached a conclusion on.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I kill Chara as scum.

Unless one of your teammates got outed by OTM and you had to kill them as a result! And now you're using the coincidence of timing in the hood generation to force another mislynch through!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Seriously, I wouldn't wish my mind upon anyone else when it comes to these games.

Like, there's so many fucking reasons for and against every damn conclusion I come to, it's a mess in here.

That's why I need Drixx around, so he can validate my conclusions and tell me when I'm looking at things the wrong way. If it's just me, I hesitate too much(thus, Bloodborne loss)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon said he had 8 "planes" planned.
I highly doubt we can go back to MtG this game given we now know that means he has 8 different "games" designed.

Also we could play a super spicy fun game called "aggressively lynch all of beeboy's scum reads until one flips town"

Would still love to hear about this guilty you said you had on me

Me too.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh. Valid point. MC, did you express your suspicion of the B&M slot to them at any point prior to revealing it in the thread?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

TBH, seems like you really shouldn't have acted so hastily if the ability you have would have confirmed you as town to someone. :-/ Should be *zero* cause for uncertainty on the part of the people answering you.

IDK why Venmar wouldn't check whether or not his PT still worked(particularly since the PT, at the top, says that it will exist regardless of the effect of planeschases(at least, mine does, with B&M), but I also dunno why scum!him would lie about it.

Actually, if B&M is scum, I'm certain Venmar is town at this point, since he'd have even more reason to know how that role worked, since I've talked with B&M in that PT since the day started.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

and his error looks NAI to me. without explicit correction i'd also assume hoods close when planes change. Venmar, i have some question for you but that will have to be dealt with later this evening.

There is explicit correction in the header of the PT's, where it lists the membership. Again, still think Venmar was just being dumb in the way people usually are about abilities and making assumptions, but not scum because of it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, does anyone recall EXACTLY when the thread was locked?

I'd also like the know the EXACT time that all these PT's with B&M were created.

As I said, my main concern is that they had actions submitted to Varsoon, and Varsoon just came online and read through all his PM's and performed actions in the order received, thus giving the impression that B&M acted immediately before the hammer.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I would answer that but it was random that did it sooooo you will have 5o wait for him.

You could just ask the moderator when the actions submitted by your slot were submitted, and when they were received by him.

Easy.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

TBH, seems like you really shouldn't have acted so hastily if the ability you have would have confirmed you as town to someone. :-/ Should be *zero* cause for uncertainty on the part of the people answering you.

IDK why Venmar wouldn't check whether or not his PT still worked(particularly since the PT, at the top, says that it will exist regardless of the effect of planeschases(at least, mine does, with B&M), but I also dunno why scum!him would lie about it.

Actually, if B&M is scum, I'm certain Venmar is town at this point, since he'd have even more reason to know how that role worked, since I've talked with B&M in that PT since the day started.

-Cerb

I straight up answer seems like the most confirmation we could get. What would you want us to do? Ask him to check for something that doesn't exist according to him? We wanted you but you had a hood with B and M.

Why are you whiteknighting instead of using Occam's Razor?

~Titus

@Kiana, it wasn't a mistake at all. Talk to me.

Occam's Razor provides equal evidence for them being dumb town, as dumb scum(because either way, that was fucking dumb).

And I suppose I just don't expect much from Venmar with regards to mechanics, perhaps because of the tone of his posts, I just don't expect him to be super mechanically oriented, and therefore likely to make mistakes(as he just did), so I would have wanted to be extra sure before risking wasting the ability. *Shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OK I checked our sent messages Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:16 pm is when random sent the pm for the hoods

P. Edit



Better?

P. Edit 2

I agreed with2/3 of it so saying I didn't agree at all is stretching.

We were planning to hood you today buuuuuuuuuuut stuff changed.

Time zone please? I know neither of you are in NA.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, so same as mine. So, let's look at the spread of events:

12:16 B&M submitted all their PT creation actions
12:30 PT with RR is created
12:33 last post of the day, made by Gamma
12:50 PT with MC is created
12:57 the Sword is cast

So, this *wasn't* a matter of Varsoon showing up and actions having been submitted, unless scum told him to cast the sword at ~1, or they happened to show up and submit that action in the 14 minutes between B&M's action submission, and the creation of the PT.

This is why the time the thread was locked is really important. If someone can figure that out, it would be helpful.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, so same as mine. So, let's look at the spread of events:

12:16 B&M submitted all their PT creation actions
12:30 PT with RR is created
12:33 last post of the day, made by Gamma
12:50 PT with MC is created
12:57 the Sword is cast

So, this *wasn't* a matter of Varsoon showing up and actions having been submitted, unless scum told him to cast the sword at ~1, or they happened to show up and submit that action in the 14 minutes between B&M's action submission, and the creation of the PT.

This is why the time the thread was locked is really important. If someone can figure that out, it would be helpful.

-Cerb

Why not? Varsoon could just have taken his time with performing moderator actions. He could have been busy.

...

He obviously took his time, everything happened over 40 minutes or so.

However, if Varsoon had an action submission at 12:16 by B&M to create the hoods, and did so, which was coupled with a scum team request to cast the Sword, I would have expected Varsoon to lock the thread right as he was creating all the hoods, since he'd know that would change the votes and potentially cause a lynch.

B&M(and MC): When was the PT with MC created, and when were they informed of your color identity?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Interesting, MC said 12:50 for the PT creation.

And because one of the possibilities was that they knew you were UG, and had a teammate cast the sword/cast it themselves in order to frame your slot for today.

Since they didn't, that's not a possibility, at least, insofar as you being UG could have played a part.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I got my B&M hood at 12:50. so yeah lol.
The only motivation A50 has to claim is to cover for B&M even as town he shouldn't have claimed that.

Mark dying over {RR, MC, Purple, Chara, Bronya} is odd af and points to the guilty theory and not a coincedence.


Gamma is obvious scum and his flip points to Venmar.
B&M and A50 are just tied scum atm.

If I am wrong anywhere it's Nancy who is left.


Cerb thoughts on the team I've been at for awhile?

MC?

Why the difference between the time the hood was created for you, and for them?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I really don't want you to be scum B&M.

Like, I'm super fucking sad if you are. :-/

I don't even want to do the best thing and lynch you because if I'm wrong it'll be the worst.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Actually, even if I'm right it'll friggin suck because then we won't have a PT!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Actually, even if I'm right it'll friggin suck because then we won't have a PT!

-Cerb

Well, if it wasn't for B&M blocking us, you'd have a PT with

us!

~Kiana

Sorry, but pt's with random come first in all games. Gotta keep up the tradition yo. We've both gone out of our way in past games to make sure we had a pt with one another, even if it wasn't the *best* choice to make.



Plus, PT's with Titus just lead to pain and suffering because she and Drixx butt heads, like, hardcore. Not that I don't WANT to be able to work with your slot, but fuck our other heads make it hard. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Actually, even if I'm right it'll friggin suck because then we won't have a PT!

-Cerb

Well, if it wasn't for B&M blocking us, you'd have a PT with

us!

~Kiana

Sorry, but pt's with random come first in all games. Gotta keep up the tradition yo. We've both gone out of our way in past games to make sure we had a pt with one another, even if it wasn't the *best* choice to make.



Plus, PT's with Titus just lead to pain and suffering because she and Drixx butt heads, like, hardcore. Not that I don't WANT to be able to work with your slot, but fuck our other heads make it hard. :-/

-Cerb

That's news to me. I had the impression that Titus really loves you guys.

*shrug*

~Kiana

She does.

And we love her.

It's just that in a mafia environment, neither of us can REALLY trust the other, and it always leads to all this ridiculous infighting even when we are both town.

It makes me sad.

That's why I made that post on D1 listing all these people I just want to pretend are IC's, and fucking go with it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Actually, even if I'm right it'll friggin suck because then we won't have a PT!

-Cerb

Well, if it wasn't for B&M blocking us, you'd have a PT with

us!

~Kiana

Sorry, but pt's with random come first in all games. Gotta keep up the tradition yo. We've both gone out of our way in past games to make sure we had a pt with one another, even if it wasn't the *best* choice to make.



Plus, PT's with Titus just lead to pain and suffering because she and Drixx butt heads, like, hardcore. Not that I don't WANT to be able to work with your slot, but fuck our other heads make it hard. :-/

-Cerb

That's news to me. I had the impression that Titus really loves you guys.

*shrug*

~Kiana

She does.

And we love her.

It's just that in a mafia environment, neither of us can REALLY trust the other, and it always leads to all this ridiculous infighting even when we are both town.

It makes me sad.

That's why I made that post on D1 listing all these people I just want to pretend are IC's, and fucking go with it.

-Cerb

Well, we had a 1-shot masonizer, so trust with regard to alignment should theoretically not have been an issue.

Too bad Venmar had to burn it

~Kiana

Yeah, should have just figured out a way to get B&M shot by someone with a day vig, and then you could have used it on us. Unfortunately, that line was pretty much impossible since before the end of phase yesterday.

*sigh*

Mafia sucks.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

but you said i was the only hoodbuddy you needed

That's true!

I'm just saying that the only way to have got us in a hood with them with the game state at the start of the day was to do what I suggested.

:p

Anyways.

idk what to do.


-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Want

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A VC.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, so same as mine. So, let's look at the spread of events:

12:16 B&M submitted all their PT creation actions
12:30 PT with RR is created
12:33 last post of the day, made by Gamma
12:50 PT with MC is created
12:57 the Sword is cast

So, this *wasn't* a matter of Varsoon showing up and actions having been submitted, unless scum told him to cast the sword at ~1, or they happened to show up and submit that action in the 14 minutes between B&M's action submission, and the creation of the PT.

This is why the time the thread was locked is really important. If someone can figure that out, it would be helpful.

-Cerb

Why not? Varsoon could just have taken his time with performing moderator actions. He could have been busy.

Speaking as a mod this is plausible, I got really lazy with my last game and am ashamed of myself for doing so, part of it was not wanting to take the time to write flavor

I shall give you the advice I've given other mods in flavor heavy games: Make sure the mechanic shit is immediately known, don't put the pressure on yourself to write the flavor, and fill it in later.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Nancy, ISO these slots: Venmar, A50, Baku and Gamma Emerald (also his hydra: Tibor and Lumia)

Okay, so I will ask you the same question I asked Chara?

Are you reading all these as scum slots?

I think he wants an objective, new perspective on that set of slots. That means answering your question is unacceptable, because it may bias you one way or another.

I will confirm that those slots have been major points of discussion on this day phase, and his recommendation that you preferentially ISO those slots will help you in having commentary to make which is relevant to the conversations happening today.

If you intend to actually catch up quickly(which I find a bit unlikely, given that you had the entire night phase to read and apparently chose not to/were unable to do so), you should probably just do that instead though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

After beginning to get more caught up in the game; I’m thinking that Chara is prob. town. He seems to be solvey, without any particular agenda.

Why did you preferentially ISO an individual who you decided was probably town? That seems like a waste of limited time.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And I suppose I just don't expect much from Venmar with regards to mechanics, perhaps because of the tone of his posts, I just don't expect him to be super mechanically oriented, and therefore likely to make mistakes(as he just did), so I would have wanted to be extra sure before risking wasting the ability. *Shrug*

u suck too

I dont think you suck, I just don't think you approach the game the same way I do.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You should explicitly state who falls under the "I don't want to sort" category right now.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Nope, no flips happening for awhile.

Sorry.

What board game?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

TABLEFLIP

And idunno just something fun I like deckbuilding games
~Ali

Gross.

Literally my least favorite game type. Pick up Tabletop Simulator, I might consider playing games some time. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's the truth though. *shrug*

I'm also not reading through the ISO maps, just sayin. Well, let me rephrase: I'll read through them if you guys flip scum at some point, but not otherwise.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I just don't want to click all the links, and would prefer a summary so I can read that and then determine if i think what you're saying makes sense. Instead, what you're doing requires that I go to each individual post and decide if your interpretation of that specific post is correct, on a pbp basis.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: Ico is no longer on vacation, it ended on the 26th. They posted last night.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Drixx/Cerby

- I have no idea what the fuck your actual stances are right now like what are your actual reads atm?
~Ali

Secret.

B&M is currently mechanically probscum, or super fucking unlucky.

I haven't expressed any other positions beyond that. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, was anybkdy but Chara able to do things that would give mana to others/increase how much mana they could generate?

@Alisae: I react to things, there's nothing happening!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel like you're missing some bolding. All your scum reads appeared to be shared except for A50...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Speaking of Nancy, where are you in the game now? Have you at least been reading the new posts as you catch up on the old?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm.

So right now OTM was unlynchable(and basically just didn't exist) on genocide, while Gamma and Dunnstral both claim to be functionally lynchproof on pacifist only.

Have we had a VC since the Dunnstral claim plus votes on him happened?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Why do we do that right now.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Skybird has had her vote on him for a good while.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Nancy, really need you to solve that. :> urgently.

I will try to do my best later tonight. I’ve not been feeling well, yesterday and today but I’ll try my best.

If it's the same as the thing I had, you can send multiple answers. So, if you have limited, time, spam all the possible answers you can think of.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Speaking of Nancy, where are you in the game now? Have you at least been reading the new posts as you catch up on the old?

-Cerb

Yes I have but until I’m fully caught up; I’m at a definite disadvantage. I will try to give some more reads later.

What Chara's asking for comes ahead of forming reads.

Really really. So yeah, if time is limited, please focus on that. Thanks! <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Was I replaced?

Nope!

Can you try to check in regularly?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(And by regularly I mean just like...visit the site a few times a day and see if you have any PM's)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

3 people claim they can't die/be lynched?
Yeah no
~Maki

whos the 3rd

OTM's Genocide role was unlynchable.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So, we have confirmation that Dunnstral can't be voted for by at least one individual.

VOTE: Dunnstral

I should have probably done this before, just to have independent corroboration that Dunnstral truly can't be voted for. Possible they're not truly lynchproof, and the votes simply don't show up until they reach lynch or some other threshold. That would reduce the semi-counterclaim effect of having two slots that are lynchproof in Pacifist.

@Kiana: So you lost your vote when we went to Pacifist? And PH went from having half a vote(which is functionally no vote, unless another half vote exists), to having 2 votes?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Varsoon: What is a "simple majority" of votes as defined in the rule set?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Varsoon: What is a "simple majority" of votes as defined in the rule set?

-Cerb

½ # of living players +1, rounded down.
So for today, on Pacifist, there's 14 living players (Snarky Snowman doesn't count as 'living').
Half of 14 is 7. 7 + 1 is 8. It takes 8 votes to lynch a player. This is reflected on the VC.

So due to rounding, a half vote will never accomplish anything on a slot, unless we reach day end and the vote is decided by most votes/most recent vote at that time.

Hmm.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So...any particular reason why the game is so dead right now, yet there are only 5 votes total which have been placed?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also to be transparent, if we get to 6 days left and the remainder of the list hasn't completed the puzzle, I'll be aggressively leading wagons on each person until they finish it.

Not completing it is close to the most anti-town thing you could do.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Taly: Hold on, reserve your praise, that wasn't a push, that was a confirmation of the claim that Dunnstral made, that votes won't work on his slot today.

Skybird voted for him, but I just wanted my own confirmation, since I know my vote should be functioning.

Can someone please explain to me the obsession with Iconeum/Skybird? The two have been tied together in peoples reads since D1, but I don't believe anyone ever outlined *why*, and I haven't really seen it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, I think it's because we were in the hood together on D1.

Even before people knew about that, they were still tying the two of you together. There must have been behavior reasons, not just "same hood" reasons.

Speaking of same hood reasons, that logic put forth by OTM still holds, that one of the two of you *should* be scum, given that SD flipped as town. Just based on the math, of course.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

1) What do you think about Iconeum/Skybird?

2) Dunnstral has done little to interact with anyone, I don't know how you made the association of him and MC?

3) I want to hear MC respond to this.

Have they both been townreading each other the whole game? That will determine what I think of them.
I'm suspecting MC and Dunn lock-clearing each other with Dunnstral having barely done anything. People have been saying lurker!Dunn is his town meta, and I know that to be untrue.

Why don't you know the answer to your first question?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Gamma, what I'm asking is why don't YOU know the state of the reads Icon and Skybird have for one another?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I know they both townread each other NOW, I'm asking if that's always been the case.

I know what you're asking.

What I'm questioning is how closely you've read the game, to be unaware of that, given that they were, as you said, a major point of conversation on D1. Did you never look into the two slots and their relationship on D1?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean I have a vague recollection of there possibly being some friction but other than that I'm not so sure. I said they were major conversation points cos like
Many people suspected Ico
Many people suspected Sky
And now no one gives a shit?
Everyone currently active: what was your thoughts on Ico + Sky before and after Shining's flip?

Exactly the same as my current thoughts, I didn't understand what the behavioral connections everyone was using to connect them were. Then we learned they were in a hood, and the conversation shifted to the likelihood of there being scum in the hood. I suppose I was pretty sure that there was likely scum between the two of them, but didn't actually have any idea which one was more likely scum. The hammer and B&M thing and A50 thing have eclipsed that particular solving method for me today though. I am still interested in any posts that drew other's interest and established a connection between the two which occurred before their hood was outed though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Icon, Skybird: Are you still in a PT with one another? More specifically, did the PT from D1 persist, and if not, was it replaced by a new PT/a PT with a new origin today?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Venmar: given the fact that this games ruleset changes, as well as roles, if his slot *doesnt* prevent the nk, or, hell, gives scum some additional benefit(s) in addition to not being lynched, it just means they've maximized the utility of the role by letting it activate during the one day it could activate.

It's not mechanically optimal in any situation where scum gain more benefit from it than town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Would the new origin have allowed SD to be part of your PT?

As in, is it explicit that just you two would have been in it? Or do you just have access to a PT without knowledge of who the membership could be?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Thanks Skybird. Just considering what the game state would be like if SD were alive right now, alignment unknown, and ejected from your PT, since that was more likely than what ended up happening, and since these roles were created after alignment was, the way he expected us to react would be something he'd at least attempt too account for.

No conclusions, but valuable data.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Taly: generally, if I take the time to explain why someone else's reason for thinking something is a good idea aren't correct, without adding in a caveat about benefits or expressing uncertainty about doing it, it means I'm opposed to their idea.

So no, I don't think lynching gamma to test his claim is a good idea. If we actually think his claim is worth testing, that is, that there is a preponderance of evidence in favor of him lying about this, and thus scum, or simply scum for other reasons, we can just lynch him on another day, when we could expect him to die.

Also, creating interaction maps without analysis and conclusions does not actually progress the game state. It REITERATES the game state, and gives people a tool which they can use to review how you no interpret things, but the conclusions you draw from each post(namely, this is a positive interaction or negative interaction) are too simple to justify going back and actually reading through them, at least without the valuable notations included such as questioning WHY someone's interactions went from hard positive to hard negative.

Taly, can you please answer my sky/icon question?

-Cerb