Mini Normal 2058 (Endgame)

[Morality]

VOTE: Morality

I'm like only lynching Morality today but we can see who else is scum.

I’m an ascetic Miller.

One of those are true.

@Creature

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

So, I was pretty sure Creature targeted me Night 1, which shows I’m not Ascetic.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

I quoted Boats vote by accident. Meant to quote Creature’s.

[Morality]

VOTE: Morality

Hmm, I didn't read the role carefully enough. He probably used it on one of Morality/Boats/Creature.

VOTE: Boats

Even Shoshin thought one of us were the likely target.

And RCE was literally crumbing all day he’d be dealing with me through some kind of PR.

[Morality]

VOTE: Something_Smart

No, he's spewed town by Shoshin.

Disagree.

[Morality]

Shoshin was the scummiest person in this game. Give me reasons outside of the replacement, and maybe I’ll agree.

But SS is literally trying to discredit basically confirmed actions.

[Morality]

RCE had no reason to ever not target Boon there

You think it's literally impossible that he scumread someone else more than he scumread Boon? What?

He didn’t. The only other person he was scum reading was Boats/Creature, and Creature was his last.

You're a mind reader now? You know that he didn't see CoA flip traitor and change his reads? You know that he didn't get paranoid on someone and change his action?

Nope. RC was pushing COA, Boats, Morality scum team.

[Morality]

Anyone who is stating that Creature didn’t investigate me Night 1 is just plain wrong.

I have faith that Creature doesn't make an action that can't possibly produce a useful result.

If that gets you mislynched then oh well, we both can yell at him together in postgame.

And even if he did check you, he sure as hell didn't get an inno so I don't know how that would make you cleared.

I’m cleared from RCE, if I’m not cleared Boats is cleared.

[Morality]

But SS is literally trying to discredit basically confirmed actions.

Just like I tried to discredit "confirmed" vig Tchill in Blessed Mafia?

I was scum there. That’s different. I’m conftown here.

[Morality]

And I’m not reading your slot based off of just you. Day 1/Day 2 my main scum read was Shoshin.

Regardless of any actions post DDL death, Shoshin was scum.

SS just figured out a path now afterwards.

I’ve been casing Shoshin all game.

[Morality]

But I was town there. Clearly this is something I do as town.

I am very firmly against jumping to conclusions, and I am seeing a truly alarming amount of it this game.

Honestly, I’m not even reading much into you.

Shoshin was scum.

And you’re just discrediting. You doing it as town doesn’t mean that it’s not a good scum play. In fact, it makes it a stronger scum play.

[Morality]

Like, you’re arguing actions that were clearly targeted at me.

RCE has a role that he can’t change after the flips. He can’t change the crumbs.

You do NOT switch after day ends. That is terrible play.

[Morality]

He was a disloyal babysitter who died. His target is conf town or they would have died.

There is absolutely zero reason to change after flips without being able to crumb.

[Morality]

He didn't crumb, first of all. He gave reads, but I doubt those reads were expressly meant to indicate who he was targeting.

I already explained why that IS crumbing.

[Morality]

So why can't the team be morality/BnH/creature? Why does it have to be morality/BnH/CoA when you literally just said you don't know how she flips?

I think Morality/creature/third is likely.

Not sure where I stand. Consider me Shoshin Jr. At this point, so I'll probably just push Mo tomorrow and re evaluate the rest with the flip.

If you're town there's a case to be made against morality/BnH whether you die or not.

Even if BnH/morality isn't the team.

Hmm, why BnH before Morality?

Besides the mmk and baa’s these are his final posts.

He brings me up over and over. I was his target.

[Morality]

If he didn’t target me, he targeted Boats. We were in the 2v2 with RC-Shoshin, RCE was the next heavy and knew he probably had a chance to die based on his connection to Shoshin.

He made sure we knew who he was targeting.

Shoshin agreed with it even. DDL made the case on it before his death.

[Morality]

Or actually, you don't need to fullclaim. But I need to know this. Do not lie.

Are you ascetic?

I already said I’m not Ascetic at the beginning of this day phase. If I was Ascetic, there would be zero reason to argue the RCE thing. I was confirmed Not Ascetic D2

[Morality]

I’m confirmed Not Ascetic from yesterday, by the way.

VOTE: Morality

I'm like only lynching Morality today but we can see who else is scum.

I’m an ascetic Miller.

One of those are true.

@Creature

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

So, I was pretty sure Creature targeted me Night 1, which shows I’m not Ascetic.

[Morality]

OKAY.

I received no result on Morality last night.

VOTE: Morality

This is a lie, I’m not Ascetic, lol

[Morality]

I already claimed it earlier too, and you didn’t push me until now.

[Morality]

UNVOTE:

Morality is the lynch today then, I have more to do before hammer though.

No, SS is gambiting.

I’m an informed Miller who knows there isn’t any Loyal modifiers and there is a total of 4 scum.

[Morality]

There's... 4 scum?

Yes, now get off of me. I was going to wait until it was lylo because I expected scum to make some kind of play and I’d come out catching them that way.

I lied about the Loyal modifier thing.

[Morality]

I kind of want to lynch you now just because if we're actually playing a 9:4 game then our loss will be the fault of whoever said this was balanced.

This is a terrible reasoning.

[Morality]

And there’s a Cop/IC/Disloyal Babysitter, and it’s 3.5 because of a traitor.

So there’s a lot of Inno/Guilty stuff.

[Morality]

And there’s a Cop/IC/Disloyal Babysitter, and it’s 3.5 because of a traitor.

So there’s a lot of Inno/Guilty stuff.

Not really at all. Creature's role would get a total of one result. RCE would only get a result if he died and even then only one.

I mean, you have a role apparently. I’m sure there are more.

I imagine town to be pretty heavy.

[Morality]

To be fair, NK15 games are insane. He had 3 multitasking JOATS in his last one.

[Morality]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=77628

Here was his last game I played in. He does crazy normal games.

[Morality]

I kind of want to lynch you now just because if we're actually playing a 9:4 game then our loss will be the fault of whoever said this was balanced.

This is a terrible reasoning.

9:4 mini normal is so shitty and I will have words for NK15 and the reviewers if it's true. I'd rather focus on the possibility that this is actually a decent game, because I'd happily give up the chance of winning an awful setup for a better chance of winning a good one.

And my role isn't very strong.

Don’t give up winning an awful setup...win it. Come on, man

[Morality]

I’m also informed about another player being informed, but I’d rather not bring that up.

Earlier in this game, I brought up the likelihood of this game being a lot of informed roles.

RCE was also informed.

In a way, traitor is informed.

[Morality]

His last game was 15:4.

You're saying this is 9:4. That's not in the same league of crazy at all.

I was talking about role wise.

I’ve been crumbing I was informed for a while, though. ScumMe doesn’t have any reason to give that out.

And if I’m lying, I can be caught out if the game doesn’t end.

Zero scum motivation. That’s the most anti scum thing ever, and I don’t play anti scum as scum.

[Morality]

Don’t give up winning an awful setup...win it. Come on, man

Now you seem convinced that I'm town...?

No, I’d want you to win as scum if you’re scum. You not hard tunneling is a little townie, sure, but I was hard tunneled on Shoshin.

[Morality]

I don't see how smart gets away with such a gambit this early in the game though, Morality.
One day later? Yes- but now?

You're going to have to spoonfeed me otherwise...

If scum get a mislynch, they only need one more afterwards. They have 3 scum left.

It’s not as early as it seems.

[Morality]

I’ve been crumbing I was informed for a while

Too much text to read through and pick up on those crumbs.
What happened to being an

ascetic

miller?

I’m an Informed Miller.

[Morality]

Zero scum motivation. That’s the most anti scum thing ever, and I don’t play anti scum as scum.

Would you deny that, from my point of view here, if you are scum, you're absolutely playing to survive as long as possible?

If I actually got a guilty on you, there's no way you endgame. So your motivation would just be to survive as long as you possibly could and sow confusion in the meantime.

Do you see how this makes sense from my point of view?

Sure, but I’m town, so I know that’s not the case. I’m probably inno’d town as well.

[Morality]

Do you understand from my perspective why your slot looks near lock scum to me?

If you’re town, what would you like me to do to show you that I’m town?

[Morality]

If you think I’m scum who’s lying about there being 4 scum, then save me for when that’s proven to not be true.

That means if we don’t hit scum today or tomorrow, if the game continues, I’m lock scum.

I’m going to be going for scum just as much as you are, but lynching me today means you don’t get any more mislynches without losing the game.

[Morality]

If you are town, then help me work this out. 9:4 is insane, so I can't imagine scum have a roleblocker... so it would have to be a townie that RB'd me or rolestopped you.

Maybe we should have everyone massclaim whether or not they interfered with my action.

I could see a limited roleblocker of sorts. But scum likely don’t have much power.

[Morality]

I’m confirmed Not Ascetic from yesterday, by the way.

VOTE: Morality

I'm like only lynching Morality today but we can see who else is scum.

I’m an ascetic Miller.

One of those are true.

@Creature

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

So, I was pretty sure Creature targeted me Night 1, which shows I’m not Ascetic.

@Vorkuta

[Morality]

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

And then Creature votes here after.

I forgot I messed up with my original quoting whenI quoted Boats vote over Creature’s.

[Morality]

9:4 isn't insane if there's a traitor and an all town neighborhood.

All town neighborhood is expected to destroy itself too.

That would mean scum’s probably Vorkuta, one of Shoshin/RC, and hell, probably Boats.

If Boats is town, I think there’s a scum in the neighborhood, and I don’t see Boats as scum with RC.

[Morality]

ScumVorkuta implicates ScumRC too based on how he reacted towards RC vs Morality, and then it got pushed a little as a Vorkuta/Morality team.

Vorkuta, I don’t want to mislynch you, help me out if you’re town.

[Morality]

Zero scum motivation. That’s the most anti scum thing ever, and I don’t play anti scum as scum.

Would you deny that, from my point of view here, if you are scum, you're absolutely playing to survive as long as possible?

If I actually got a guilty on you, there's no way you endgame. So your motivation would just be to survive as long as you possibly could and sow confusion in the meantime.

Do you see how this makes sense from my point of view?

I wanna come back to this for a second. I’m extremely survivilastic of a player. check the last NK15 game. I was IC flipped immediately and trolled until end game and I caught the final 2 scum.

[Morality]

Yeah I read that exchange.
That doesn't account for

-What if creature had another gut read he wanted verification on?
-What if he was lazy/didn't catchup/ignored this?
-Why would he cop you if he was "only lynching you" today?
-He could still target you even if you are ascetic.
And the kicker

He Voted you. #2361 After he "100!% investigated you" with his N1 cop.

He copped me. He got a guilty. He didn’t realize I was a miller because he missed the early game, which was a big discussion of this game early game.

[Morality]

He just wanted confirmation on me. I’ve played with Creature a lot. Both him and RCE would use Night Actions on me Night 1.

It’s not wasting an investigation. It’s confirming a slot.

Honestly, I am 100% confident he investigated me to the point where it’s not even worth debating.

[Morality]

Vedith is fence sitting hard

[Morality]

Vedith is fence sitting hard

I meant to say vorkuta here, my auto correct has seen me say Vedith a bunch I guess.

[Morality]

I don't want to be mislynched either

So based on S_Smart's accusation, either one of you is definitely scum, however you both make convincing arguments for why neither of you can't be the lynch today.
(smart because PR, and morality because informed 4 scum)
So... these 2 are out of the lynchpool or..?

This also isn’t necessarily true.

SS doesn’t have a guilty. He made that obvious. I feel he could have been gambiting, but whatever.

If he’s telling the truth, then he could have been roleblocked, I could have been rolestopped.

Shoshin as town or scum makes sense to be targeted in that fashion.

[Morality]

You realize that because I am town, if SS isn't town, or is gambiting, all that does is out a potential PR, right?

[Morality]

it’s not optimal because I’m town, already basically confirmed town, so we know that it’s just going to out a PR.

[Morality]

And if scum has the blocker, and SS is town, it gives SS a double mislynch path, which kind of fits with the agenda you’re pushing with it.

I don’t really think you’re scum, tbh, but yeah.

[Morality]

The thing is what do we get out of doing that if town doesn’t have the role? What if scum were the blockers?

[Morality]

i see why TownYou would push that, but I think it just helps scum.

[Morality]

And if scum has the blocker, and SS is town, it gives SS a double mislynch path, which kind of fits with the agenda you’re pushing with it.

I don’t really think you’re scum, tbh, but yeah.

If scum has 4 members they do not have a roleblocker lmao

it’s not optimal because I’m town, already basically confirmed town, so we know that it’s just going to out a PR.

You aren't confirmed town if you're ascetic. SS claims you're ascetic. Ergo, this is happening and if you keep arguing with my plan I will just lynch you.

I’m confirmed Not Ascetic...

Holy fuck. It’s not even up for debate.

Creature targeted me. End of story.

[Morality]

First, Boon is going to hard claim Ascetic or not Ascetic.

Now please.

This was literally stated at least 5 times in this thread already.

[Morality]

The thing is what do we get out of doing that if town doesn’t have the role? What if scum were the blockers?

And to play devils advocate, sure, its 4:9 and scum have a roleblocker. Then SS has already claimed and scum is the PR so there's no town PR outed.

You don’t get anything out of this.

I’m still town.

[Morality]

There is literally zero chance Creature didn’t target me.

[Morality]

There’s actually zero chance RCE didn’t target me either.

That one I’m willing to debate on, but not with Creature’s.

[Morality]

I’m an ascetic Miller.

One of those are true.

Town

As Vorkuta mentioned, this makes it less likely he targeted you and more likely he copped RC - but I will get into that and everything else after we sort this out.

Disagree. Creature would confirm his town read on me, and he didn’t post near the end of the day. That was Creature’s entrance into the game basically.

Also, Vorkuta’s scum, so I don’t get your point.

[Morality]

If I wasn’t Creature’s target, who was?

RC is confirmed NOT his target.

And he didn’t crumb anywhere else.

Creature even mentioned me in the neighborhood.

There’s 100% no doubt that he targeted me.

If you can’t see that, you’re scum. Simple as that.

[Morality]

I don't agree Vorkuta's scum but that is a discussion for later.

Waiting on SS, then we can start claiming interfere / not interfere.

No. We’re not doing this.

I’m already conf town basically. We already know if SS isn’t gambiting as scum or town, he was blocked.

[Morality]

So Dunn’s the scum blocker.

[Morality]

Does scum RB make sense with what we know about the setup so far?

It doesn't feel like it fits the theme I'm seeing with the setup to me

I mean, I know I’m town, so if SS has a failed thing, and it’s not claimed, it’s not a matter of it makes sense or not.

[Morality]

It could be town, but if it were, he’d have claimed it.

Instead, he’s tiptoeing around to setup a trajectory, when in actuality townies would claim it there, where scum’s want it to look built up towards.

[Morality]

And if I were scum, I’m literally confirmable as scum if the game doesn’t end in 2 mislynches. (To be fair, that revolves getting 2 mislynches), but 2 mislynches will end the game anyways. So don’t waste one on me when I am confirmable.

[Morality]

Actually, I just thought of a scenario that makes sense having Dunn and SS be town.

[Morality]

We have a town jailkeeper that protected SS.

[Morality]

I can't tell if you're flailing because you're scum knowing this kind of thing would out you or if you're town that doesn't think it will give the correct result

Is flailing more of a scum thing from me or town?

Actual question. I’m pretty solid and consistent when I’m scum, but I’ve been known to fake flailing.

I’m just thinking over stuff right now, i don’t really think this is me flailing.

[Morality]

I have a no mislynch streak going on, so...

Mislynched once in the past 2 years in a 5p lylo.

[Morality]

I heard somewhere here that nk15 is known for more outlandish setups. I know about how irchers large was designed (which he was either a backup or comod for), but does anybody know which games would show this? I want to check something.

I linked a game recently of his I played in.

If you go to completed large normals, it’s really recently added there.

[Morality]

JK makes a lot of sense for town in this setup.

I think Shoshin slot makes sense to get targeted by it too.

[Morality]

IC
JK
Miller
Disloyal Babysitter
Night 1 Cop
SS role
Neighbor

Vs

Traitor
Scum
Scum
Scum


Leaves 2 slots.
Other neighbors could just be neighbors or some kind of PR, but DDL flipped just Neighbor.

[Morality]

RC hardclaimed VT- do we still stand by that?

Hmm...

If Mafia don’t have daytalk, this could be looking like potential Vorkuta/Dunn.

I don’t really want to get too much into that, though

[Morality]

I was lured as Not Ascetic Day 2, which I don’t understand why people don’t see that.

There was the talk of RCE targeting me Night 1, Day 2, which implies not ascetic.

[Morality]

Claiming interfere puts a night kill target on your head.

[Morality]

We don’t want a protective to out themselves.

[Morality]

I don't know how much that would really help right now. Unless anyone claims to have interfered, we lynch Morality, and then maybe I will do some reading after seeing his flip.

I’m confirmed Not Ascetic.

Correct path would be lynching you over me here.

I am confirmed by RCE.

[Morality]

There is effectively zero reason to go me before another scum is flipped. (Even then, I’d say there isn’t a reason, but I digress.)

It’s literally a wasted lynch that does nothing but helps scum.

[Morality]

Going me today means town lose tomorrow.

[Morality]

Also, SS, Dunn clearly interfered, so you’re posturing now.

[Morality]

Also, SS, Dunn clearly interfered, so you’re posturing now.

?

I guess I am wrong.

[Morality]

VOTE: Vorkuta

Guess it’s between Dunn and Vorkuta today.

I prefer Vorkuta.

[Morality]

People are too okay with a Dunn lynch despite the relative lack of focus there until recently and Tarkus hasn't done anything lately but is still getting mostly support

Idk I feel like there should be more conflict than just SS vs morality and Vorkuta vs YellowSnow

It’s because it was the RC slot that makes me not oppose it.


On the mindmelding side stepping Morality vs SS, if I were scum, I’m caught later, people pushing there is incredibly anti-town.

Sure, I know I’m just a waste of a mislynch, but still.

If you go me today, tomorrow is lylo, so going me just to prove that is garbage.

[Morality]

I'm curious why RC entered day 2 saying that at least 1/2 of morality and bnh are scum?

Because he was locked into Boats and I as S/S and would never think he’s wrong on both accords but realized he was wrong.

[Morality]

On top of that, RCE targeted me

[Morality]

How do I look bad on Day 2 things at all?

If anything that’s the day that I would tell people to look at to see that I’m town.

[Morality]

Fuck

Me

Morality looks really bad on day two things

I'm done I give up

VOTE: Dunnstral

This is fake.

Vorkuta today.

[Morality]

Creature and RCEnigma both targeted me Night 1, and everything that’s quoted from that is Day 2.

You can’t possibly look at day 2 and go it looks bad for Morality.

Even the conf town people were stating I’m town.

[Morality]

It’s Vorkuta and Ankamius, which is why Ank has been pushing the no neighborhood thing.

Also explains the mass replacement on the slot.

[Morality]

That exact attitude is why I can't townbin you for the shitty pushes on you

Because I go after all possible options?

Go look at scum me. The 26 player kill heavy game where I won as SK I was pushed as being incredibly consistent.

You should know by now that’s town leaning when it comes to me rather than scum me.

ScumMe isn’t scummy, it’s town leadery.

[Morality]

If Ank is scum, though, that likely means SS/Dunn are both town, which would mean an all town wagon on me right now, and I don’t know if I’m willing to believe that right now.

[Morality]

I've yet to see anything decisive that proves that you're town like you keep yammering on about over and fucking over again

We also are under no obligation to sort this shit out today and I personally don't think it's very realistic to have a solid read one way or the other with the information we have now and since nobody is talking or doing really anything, flips is the only way to get that info

Then that’s on you.

Creature UNDENIABLY targeted me.

Claiming that RCE didn’t crumb his role is UNDENIABLE.

These aren’t opinions. These are facts. The proof has literally been shown. Even Shoshin brought it up Day 2 who was pushing me relentlessly, which probably means SS is town.

[Morality]

It’s Vorkuta and Ankamius, which is why Ank has been pushing the no neighborhood thing.

What does this even mean

I already backed off on the you thing.

But you were town reading your other neighborhood, which is completely okay for us to analyze that as potential scum move.

I don’t think there’s scum there right now after thinking about it.

[Morality]

Morality

I've lost at least a dozen town games because for whatever boneheaded reason towns love clearing a scum for the most random shit in the world and town just assumes its true forever

I don't take shit like that seriously unless I have a very good reason to believe that it's true, so unless there's something irrefutable or damn near close to irrefutable, I'm not going to buy it

There LITERALLY is. That’s why I’m where I’m at at this point.

[Morality]

Ank’s probably town.
Boats probably town.
SS is probably town.

[Morality]

Aura’s town.

Yellow/Dunn/Vorkuta/Tarkus have 3 scum in them.

[Morality]

Vorkuta is L-2, Dunn is L-3.

[Morality]

UNVOTE: Vorkuta

Well, we need to make something happen.

[Morality]

Hmm

[Morality]

Morality is probably scum for not hammering there

I’m probably scum for not wanting your lynch...? LOL

[Morality]

I’ve been staying Vorkuta is scum for yesterday, and your counterwagon comes up and I’m probably scum for not hammering it.

On top of that, scum you wouldn’t want to aggravate me there.

So why should I have hammered you there?

[Morality]

I’m trying to figure out if a no lynch hurts scum or town more here.

[Morality]

Nah, it was me debating hammering you.

I’m still here.

[Morality]

I assumed it was semi up to me to hammer or else it’d be a no lynch kinda thing

[Morality]

so if I listen to RC and Yellow is town, for Morality to be town the team is exactly Ankamius;Tarkus;Something_Smart;Vorkuta. Which it probably isn't.

This is false.

There’s only 3 more dude. Idk why you claimed 4

[Morality]

I also was online and posting and actively didn’t kill Dunn. As scum, there’s zero reason for me to do that. I had no clue there’d be 2 kills.

Vorkuta is scum.

VOTE: Vorkuta

I’ve literally said this for days now. He’s also been calling RC vs Morality TvT all game, and now one of them flips town and he goes after me.

Vorkuta just scum claimed.

[Morality]

It’s Vorkuta, Snow, and one of Boats/Tarkus.

[Morality]

Why does RC’s reads matter here? Most of my experience with RC he’s been incorrect on reads that I ended up finding.

[Morality]

Vork’s the scum blocker.

[Morality]

Morality- your reads contradict themselves every 5 minutes, and I can prove that I'm town later on.
You probably alluded to it earlier.

Why are we completely ignoring/forgetting Tarkus?

I'd rather Ank > Dun. (fully aware that these are counter wagons against me)

UNVOTE: Vorkuta

Well, we need to make something happen.

[Morality]

also do we know what aura was informed about?

No, I may need to yell at him in post game for being stupid and not outing it depending what it was.

Why does RC’s reads matter here? Most of my experience with RC he’s been incorrect on reads that I ended up finding.

Using other people's reads is an important part of playing town. RC's complete confidence and refusal to talk about it implies he had a meta tell he didn't want to out, which makes it reliable.

I agree, but not RC’s when I am in the game.

That read of RC with me in the game nearly guarantees Snow is scum.

That’s just what he does. It makes sense because Yellow was going after me too. That’s classic RC vs FL.

[Morality]

I also was online and posting and actively didn’t kill Dunn. As scum, there’s zero reason for me to do that. I had no clue there’d be 2 kills.

No lynching is worse for town EV than lynching town, bullshit.

Yeah, but Dunn was town. It wasn’t worse for town. It was worse for scum.

If town has a blocker, then it was confirmed worse for scum.

[Morality]

I have some interesting thoughts about the setup that I'll share once we have all the claims

but morality might be mechanically scum if I have the right pattern pegged

I’m literally not.

[Morality]

I could be wrong and ankamius is just scum then.

Because game’s over if I’m mislynched today.

[Morality]

I have some interesting thoughts about the setup that I'll share once we have all the claims

but morality might be mechanically scum if I have the right pattern pegged

You don’t have the right pattern together because I am mechanically confirmed town, people just are actively going against me being targeted by RCE with a “oh, it might not have...”

Sure, but he did. So did Creature. So did SS.

There is zero reason for scum to not hammer Dunnstral yesterday after he flipped town. That would have effectively kept scum from winning this day phase had there not been a second kill

[Morality]

you could just wait until we get all the claims and I out my thoughts before you spend the next 3 pages flailing about nothing mort

I could, but I’m not going to, obviously.

As town, I will scream and shout until I have to to get you guys to hear that I am town.

[Morality]

If I were scum, this game isn’t in lylo.

I’m town, so it IS in lylo.

You literally can get me another day if you think I could possibly be scum by this point.

[Morality]

jesus fucking christ

I'm this close to spending the rest of the game posting in my neighborhood just so I don't have to see you post

This is scum then.

I am actively fucking giving actual reasons to why I’m town.

I’m not going to just sit back and not do any work during crunch time.

This is incredibly anti town of you.

[Morality]

If you’re town, you need to not make posts like that because that is just straight up derailing information

[Morality]

I

don't

care

I want a SOLVE

NOT A LOCKSCUM

What does this do with anything?

I’m gonna solve, but nobody can get any type of solve without seeing that I’m town.

[Morality]

Literally, because I know that I am town, this puts me in the best position to solve.

And I’m helping others by explaining mechanically why I am town/not the correct path to go.

[Morality]

jesus fucking christ

I'm this close to spending the rest of the game posting in my neighborhood just so I don't have to see you post

This is scum then.

I am actively fucking giving actual reasons to why I’m town.

I’m not going to just sit back and not do any work during crunch time.

This is incredibly anti town of you.

you're acting like I've already lockscummed you and am going to death tunnel you for the rest of the game

read what I actually posted again

You act like this is just towards you.

I’m using you as a means to get it out there.

You not responding is once again derailing the town from ithe info.

This is potential damage control.

Vorkuta/Snow/Boats is probably my guess as the scum team, because Boats is piecing things together.

Also, because Boats has basically only pushed flipped town. I’m willing to let that slide because if he’s town, I feel he’ll work with me.

Vorkuta is mechanically confirmed scum after mass claim, Snow makes sense to coast off of RC. Leaving one of Boats/Ank/Tarkus.

[Morality]

@SS - help solve with me.

[Morality]

I’m assuming you tried to kill me, SS, then killed Dunnstral because he called you scum.

[Morality]

Let’s do some VCA then

[Morality]

Something_Smart(1)Dunnstral;

Dunnstral(4)Boats n Hoes;Ankamius;Tarkus;Something_Smart;

Vorkuta(2)YellowSnow;

Aurathebirb

;

Tarkus(1)Vorkuta;

Not Voting(1)Morality;

So unless you think the scum team is Boats, Ank, Tarkus, scum is off the wagon. Dunn is flipped, confirming that it’s either Yellow or Vorkuta. Vorkuta coming on implies scum is already on the wagon in the form of Boats, Tarkus, or Ank. I’d say probably one of them.

Also, people who are saying I didn’t hammer because I’m scum. I can show you links to scum threads where I’ve literally told my scum partners to “let’s all quick lynch”, when scum is at L-3. I also gain nothing from the posts where I’m contemplating him.

There is ZERO chance that the Dunn wagon is all town, right?

You’d have to think the scum team is me, Vorkuta, and Yellow.

Awesome, so I’ll be back in a second. Gonna go over COA after I some stuff irl

[Morality]

You’re wrong on Snow. Like, yeah, you’re just wrong on Snow.

You have zero reasons.

You are just saying Snow is town because RC said so, which from my perspective is poor because I’ve had many games where I’ve called out RC for being wrong on those reads exactly. I called Snow scum day 1, but didn’t have the pull to fight it.


@SS - you see that I have a lot of pull normally when I’m scum. Look at this game. I have zero pull

[Morality]

There is zero reason for scum to not hammer Dunnstral yesterday after he flipped town. That would have effectively kept scum from winning this day phase had there not been a second kill

Huh?

Dunn was mislynch bait. Scum would definitely have preferred to keep him around another day.

To keep him around another day...so they could mislynch them? What’s the point in that? A mislynch is a mislynch either way. Scum doesn’t stop a mislynch just to have it be a mislynch later.

[Morality]

Also Boats is probably scum who knows of there being a scum blocker.

He’s doing too many “accidental” town slips.

[Morality]

Explains why he wanted to do the interfere not interfere thing because he knew what happens.

Vorkuta-Boats-Snow probably wins the game.

[Morality]

Also Boats is probably scum who knows of there being a scum blocker.

He’s doing too many “accidental” town slips.

Excuse me? What "town slips" have I done? Skipping over the fact I have literally never once tried to town slip as scum, and you know that.

I didn’t know that. That’s a weird thing to know.

The naming four scum left is classic accidental town slip, and that implies you town read me because earlier you said scum has no reason to put that, which kind of indirectly outs you.

I also think Vorkuta is town now.

UNVOTE: Vorkuta

It’s one of Ank-Tarkus, Boats, and Snow.

[Morality]

Explains why he wanted to do the interfere not interfere thing because he knew what happens.

Vorkuta-Boats-Snow probably wins the game.

If you're town you should stop being stupid and wait for mass claim to end for me to solve the game.

I’ve already solved it.

[Morality]

Ank-Tarkus are neighbors.

Vorkuta’s a Vig.

SS is some targeting role that gets a result.

[Morality]

The naming four scum left is classic accidental town slip, and that implies you town read me because earlier you said scum has no reason to put that, which kind of indirectly outs you.

That isn't a town slip, town would know there aren't 4 scum left (5:7......) just as much as scum would. And I never implied I town read you.

You didn’t imply you town read me, no.

You implied you KNEW I was town while stating a scum read on me, there’s a difference.

You brought up that I was scum with 3 other people, while earlier you said no way do I say that as scum. A scum is already flipped, but you’re just trying to paint a picture, so you know this.

[Morality]

That’s why Tarkus went on Dunnstral.

Because Boats was pushing it so hard.

I feel SS and Ankamius just gave in and voted there.

Tarkus didn’t really have an opinion and was following his scum leader.

Snow’s been super inactive.

This game is solved with Tarkus-Boats-Snow, which explains Boats over protection of Snow.

[Morality]

Explains why he wanted to do the interfere not interfere thing because he knew what happens.

Vorkuta-Boats-Snow probably wins the game.

If you're town you should stop being stupid and wait for mass claim to end for me to solve the game.

I’ve already solved it.

Well I'm town so you haven't solved it, but mhm.

:shrug: for you to be town, SS has to be scum, and I don’t really buy that anymore.

[Morality]

The naming four scum left is classic accidental town slip, and that implies you town read me because earlier you said scum has no reason to put that, which kind of indirectly outs you.

That isn't a town slip, town would know there aren't 4 scum left (5:7......) just as much as scum would. And I never implied I town read you.

You didn’t imply you town read me, no.

You implied you KNEW I was town while stating a scum read on me, there’s a difference.

You brought up that I was scum with 3 other people, while earlier you said no way do I say that as scum. A scum is already flipped, but you’re just trying to paint a picture, so you know this.

That's literally the opposite of what I said?

Sure, your words said differently, but your agenda didn’t. It’s why you pushed the interfere/no interfere thing.

That going through completely with No Interfere sets up a Morality-SS mislynch path.
Mass claim here projects yourself as townie, but it allows you all the information you need to setup a picture to endgame with. A mislynch path.

[Morality]

Vorkuta is a vigilante.
SS is a targeting role.

Snow is scum.

Ank-Tarkus are neighbors.

2 of those people are scum, and the fact that SS says his role failed means he gets a result implying a roleblocker on the scum side which fits with the setup.

[Morality]

CultOfAthena,Mafia Macho Neighbor Traitor, lynched Day 1.
RCEnigma,Town Disloyal Informed Macho Neighbor Ninja Night 1-2 Babysitter, killed Night 1.
Creature, Town Neighbor Night 1 Cop, killed Night 2.
Aurathebirb, Town Informed Macho Innocent Child, killed Night 3.
DunnstralRadiantCowbells, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3.




Disloyal Informed Macho Neighbor Ninja Night 1-2
Night 1 Neighbor Cop
Informed Macho Innocent Child
VT
Neighbor
Neighbor
(Miller)
(Vigilante)
(SS role)

(Mafia Jailkeeper)
Macho Neighbor Traitor
Mafia
Mafia

[Morality]

Yeah, you aren’t VT.

This game only has one VT, and they’re dead.

[Morality]

so if I listen to RC and Yellow is town, for Morality to be town the team is exactly Ankamius;Tarkus;Something_Smart;Vorkuta. Which it probably isn't.

The team is exactly Ankamius, Tarkus, SS, Vorkuta.

Okay, so you implied the scum team has to be four strong outside of me.

Doesn’t change the push, and you’re just using that one mistake I made as a crutch to push.

[Morality]

Yeah, you aren’t VT.

This game only has one VT, and they’re dead.

Imagine if you could make this argument after everybody is done claiming !! :O

It’s not a matter of making the argument after it’s claimed.

It’s already proven.

Vorkuta is the Vig, assuming Night 3 or something like that specifically.

Something_Smart is a claimed role already. Just leaves Snow, who’s scum by POE.

[Morality]

What can I say, I’m just a late game town powerhouse.

This happened in the last Not Known 15 game as well.

[Morality]

I might be making a bad assumption thinking Ankamius is the town in the neighborhood, but he’s been seeming genuine and gut just says he’s town. I think he actually was trying to read Tarkus, and I don’t really see scum making the “last post to you” comments.

[Morality]

What can I say, I’m just a late game town powerhouse.

This happened in the last Not Known 15 game as well.

I haven't dropped a town game this year and I don't plan on this being the first.

You’re right.

It won’t be. You’re scum.

[Morality]

for Morality to be town

See, you did it again.

But this time, it doesn’t even defend you, you just quoted something that seemed like it could discredit, but it doesn’t.

My point wasn’t about that, it was the fact that you listed 4 scum mates had to be exactly the scum team for me to be town, meaning you’d have already accepted the four scum team, yet didn’t label COA.

That completely nullifies that mindset you were trying to imply me being scum.

On top of that, this shows that I was the setup from the beginning.

You expected me to push RC/Dunn.

You expected me to push SS/Shoshin.

You expected me to take the fall and credit for them taking me down.

There’s 100% scum on the Dunnstral wagon at the end of the day.

That is CONFIRMED with the knowledge that Vorkuta is a confirmed vigilante.

I know that I’m town, and I don’t believe the team includes both of the neighbors.

Something_Smart is town for the push on me, yet the backing off. Mixed in with Shoshin/Boats play.

This implies 2 scum on the wagon.

With 1 scum leftover, it HAS to be YellowSnow.

The team is lock Tarkus (small chance of Ankamius), YellowSnow, and Boats.

This also coincides with Yellow and Boats being so Afro towards me early Day 1, then backing off after I get into it with RC.

[Morality]

Aggro* not Afro.

[Morality]

If I’m wrong that Vorkuta isn’t the Vigilante and it’s Tarkus, then yeah, I’m wrong, and power lynch Vorkuta after that.

But Vorkuta’s the Vigilante.

[Morality]

@Vorkuta/Tarkus/Snow - claim in your next posts, I guess.

[Morality]

So many Macho’s with a town Vig also implies a scum JK, so that scum can’t protect anything.

[Morality]

Consider me voting Boats right now.

@Vorkura - you need to unvote. If Snow gets on, they can probably pull off a quick hammer and win.

[Morality]

If Ank is scum* instead of Tarkus.

[Morality]

Guys, I’ve solved the game.

ScumSnow site flaked.

[Morality]

The team is literally just Boats, Snow, Tarkus.

[Morality]

Pretty much caught up.

Preferred vote today is DDL or Tarkus. Vedith I don't consider a bad vote, but I don't really know how to read him.

DDL is flipped town, Vedith was null and is Ank.

Tarkus is leftover here. This was likely a traitor crumb. I’ll go find more

[Morality]

Athena what do I do to make this a game that you want to invest your time and energy into?

Just let me do my thing.

VOTE: roomy

I played scum with yellow in a recent game AMA

Um... what's your read on him? You don't seem to actually say it despite making a comment like 286.

---

Interested to hear about the roomy scumread, RC. His entrance has a few posts that ping town but I'm hesitant to take that to townread him.

Vote: Tarkus

I mean I really don't like to be this reliant on meta-reads. So I'm probably going to take everything that people say in that area with a grain of salt.

Any scum player is going to attempt to replicate their town meta as scum. And the fact that Creature's scum meta has been labeled as very obviously different from his town meta means that he can easily fake being town if he wants to. (That said, see below)

Similarly, I'm hesitant about any entirely meta based reads of players who are considered to be very good. Someone in that category of player would know what kind of things they are likely to be town read for. I'd be more curious to know if anyone looks like they're playing to their town meta, but in a way that looks forced.

No... that's not really how meta reads work. The reason that effective meta reads exist in the first place comes from an obvious difference between people's town and scum games. Yes, it is theoretically possible for someone to mimic their towngame as scum, but those type of people... don't tend to get meta-read.

That being said, I actually do agree with you in that Creature is most likely town. I'm willing to believe that he just had a slow start.

Unvote

I've heard a lot about how his old meta is no longer reliable in reading him, but apart from perhaps a single game (Transformers Mafia) I can't think of a game that actually demonstrates this. Interested if someone actually has one.


I probably re-vote Tarkus here, going to check VC.

These are the first times that Tarkus is brought up by COA.

Creature is cases and voted in between.

There is no further push until the DDL or Tarkus line is brought up way later.

COA also lurked the entirety of her time alive, she only really popped in two or three times.

[Morality]

She also positioned herself on the other side of Boats/Yellow.

They were both pushing me as scum, while COA nulled me. That was so they all weren’t making the same push while also not giving RC total control.

[Morality]

Why were both RC and dunn so sure that snow was town rhough?

Dunn was probably just following RC, and RC just chose to town read for political reasons.

[Morality]

In the interest of full disclosure, I have a modifier to my role as well.
I don't know how to properly explain it without angering our trigger happy mod.

However- I am also informed, and from what I understand, a roleblocker/JK can't stop me from killing SCUM

CONFIRMED SCUM ROLE BLOCKER!!!!!!

So you’re strongman?

[Morality]

No, I am N3+ informed.

Sick. Let’s lynch Tarkus, kill Boats.

[Morality]

Tarkus lynch I'm ok with- I've been trying to remind people that he's in this game for some time now.

I like Boats though

Yeah, he’s a good guy. He’s just scum.

[Morality]

If we lynch scum, Voekuta idles his shot I think though I'll check the math later. If we lynch town, he shoots Morality if the game doesn't end.

Lol. If town is lynched, the game’s over.

It becomes 3-3. That’s 50%.

[Morality]

Lynch Tarkus, shoot YellowScum slot?

[Morality]

We got 1 day left.

[Morality]

And 17 hours.

[Morality]

I’m sure Boats is willing to bus Tarkus.

[Morality]

I think town loses this anyways now.

I had been talking about this game like it was over after the 50%.

That means the game continues even if 3-3 after lynch, then it goes to 2-2.


Eddie Cane has been seeing me talk about the mafia win con incorrectly this entire game, that’s why he’s bringing it up here.

He even brought up way earlier that I’m caught out after a mislynch today, which would give him the mislynch tomorrow because he knew I thought the wincon was different than it was.

[Morality]

Yes, it does.

If you look at how I’ve been posting the entire game basically, you can clearly see I thought the mafia win con was 50% population or nothing else to stop it.

You can check my modded games, that’s the win con I use.

There is zero possibility that you didn’t see that in my posts as scum who knew that the game wouldn’t be over after this day phase even with a mislynch.

Mislynching here guaranteed you a mislynch on me tomorrow because of my claim.

[Morality]

Mislynching here if you're town ends the game wincons aren't rocket science

Because you know that scum have a roleblocker, right?

BOOM!!!

FREUDIAN FUCKING SLIP!!!!


YOU WANT SOME ALOE VERA? BECAUSE YOU JUST GOT SCORCHED BY THAT THIRD DEGREE BOON!

[Morality]

The only possible way Boats could say that the game is over with a mislynch with this wincon is if he KNOWS that Vorkuta’s shot won’t go through.

[Morality]

The only possible way Boats could say that the game is over with a mislynch with this wincon is if he KNOWS that Vorkuta’s shot won’t go through.

Fuck. Vorkuta’s strongman.

Carry on.

My mistake.

Boats is still scum, though

[Morality]

Fuck. Vorkuta’s strongman.

its also not true if Vorkuta wasn't strongman

Disagree. There would be the scenario of 3-3 after a mislynch.

Vorkuta shoots, and then scum kill, if Vorkuta hits scum, it’s 2-2.

That’s still not game over at that point, unless Vorkuta can be killed. If there’s something out there that can protect Vorkuta, the game moves on, and can get the game into 3-2, or 2-2 with Vorkuta alive if they don’t kill Vorkuta.

The game doesn’t end, there are scenarios out there which you’re throwing away because in your mind it IS done.

A townie in this state wouldn’t see it that way.

[Morality]

There is zero doubt in my mind that Boats is scum at this point, by the way.

They can’t make a move either because Yellow is also scum.

If we no lynch here, and Vorkuta shoots town, that’s game over.

[Morality]

Thing is, I am by all means 100% the best Vig shot on paper. The Vig is supposed to shoot the miller.

But we lose in that scenario.

[Morality]

Even if we hit scum today, if Vorkuta hits town tonight, we lose.

[Morality]

Macho IC
Miller
Macho Disloyal Babysitter
Strongman N3+ Vig
Night 1 Cop
SS role
neighbor
Neighbor
VT

Macho Traitor neighbor
Goon neighbor
Goon
Mafia Probably Jailkeeper due to all the Macho’s and the traitor being Macho/Vorkuta being strongman.

There is only 1 VT in this game, and it was RC/Dunn.

Boats is the Goon.
YellowSnow is the JK.
Tarkus is the neighbor.

This is why Boats is abusing RC’s ‘god read’ of Yellow, because a Yellow flip opens the game up.

This is why Boats did the Interfere/Not Interfere because he knew scumblocked SS which would set up a double mislynch path on SS/Myself.

[Morality]

Ic, babysitter, myself, were informed.

Scum were probably also informed

[Morality]

We have 15 hours, guys. :/

You guys won’t lynch Boats.
You guys won’t lynch Yellow.

VOTE: Tarkus

Force boats to bus his buddy, or SS/Vorkuta/Ankamius vote Tarkus with me.

[Morality]

I mean or vote Boats with me at the end.

[Morality]

I’m gonna sleep, and I’ll probably not check this until we only have like 3 hours left.

[Morality]

I'll be here before deadline

Tbh I'm okay with that solve, i don't really understand why my slot is town from that but w/e

Something about your play from earlier today I’ve just been seeing as town, and Tarkus made sense as scum with Boats and Yellow.

Also Vedith probably doesn’t replace out as scum for being pressured.

[Morality]

Lynch/shoot Tarkus/Singleton, tomorrow Boats is caught out scum, gg.

[Morality]

Inb4 Vorkuta, Ankamius, Morality scum team

[Morality]

Hurry up and claim, we have very little time.

STK looks scum from that alone

Not really from that, but this elongated absence without a claim is definitely scummy.

this is me thinking about cfding to Snow slot today

i am now thinking of cfdfing to Ank slot today

or Snow still, depends on the claim. the longer he's afk the worse this absence is.

Okay, so Tarkus is the a PR in the neighborhood. Solid.

[Morality]

Tarkus scum flip clears Ankamius which essentially makes this game come down to a 1v1 tomorrow between Boats and I, so be ready for that y’all.

[Morality]

@Vorkuta, do not out who you are thinking of shooting if anyone. I no longer have Snow as town, so any shot besides SS is a fine shot. You do not need to shoot, but I think you should.

[Morality]

If Ank was scum, Tarkus would have been killed by now. Ank is town.

[Morality]

Lol, okay.

[Morality]

Morality are you sure SS is town

If he isn’t then Shoshin strategically replaced out.

Scratch that, Shoshin strategically replaced out regardless.

Idk. He seemed pretty genuine about his result on me, and him waiting for Snow to claim made sense.

Idk why he wants you over Tarkus, though. That’s a little off putting.

Boats is just clearly scum, though. We could just go there.

[Morality]

I’d assume an Ankamius/Snow/Morality team is going to be brought up to counter

[Morality]

If Ank was scum, Tarkus would have been killed by now. Ank is town.

this I don't understand

I would've killed Boats as scum

I meant voting wise. Lynched. This day phase.

[Morality]

Singleton's gotta be sweating bullets trying to figure out a claim

This should actually make it clear that I am town, by the way.

Anyone who knows me knows I would have had a claim ready for a partner yesterDay.

[Morality]

eh maybe the flips and vig reveal changed the equation

Okay, still. I would’ve had plenty of time this day phase too.

[Morality]

Doesn't matter, if this is game over we can blame NK15 and whoever passed his setup for making it 9:4 because that's cancer.

I think they’re trying to make it a thing where people can’t just assume 3 scum.

I think this setup is actually slightly townsided if I’m correct on setup spec, depending what you were.

I don’t think traitor is strong at all especially if they aren’t recruitable, and assumingly can be killed by their own team.

If all scum had was a JK, I would say this is balanced, if not town sided.

[Morality]

I still expect Tarkus to flip scum here, tbh.

[Morality]

Wtf. Was it you, Boats, and Snow?

[Morality]

I’m confused. If you’re a traitor, coa was a traitor, there was only 2 group scum, a Night 1 cop, AND a N3+ Vig, n1/2 disloyal babysitter.

That’s incredibly town sided. The 2 group scum die, that’s game over. Scum literally have to protect their group scum or they lose.

[Morality]

Scum could have lost by the start of Day 2 that meant.

[Morality]

I mean, it doesn’t matter if mechanically or not 4 scum doesn’t work. This is a normal game and I was informed of 4 scum.

[Morality]

I’ve also been conf town since the start of Day 2 due to RCE, but yeah.

[Morality]

The good news is I think I have a fairly accurate FL tell now. I just have to figure out how to make getting him lynched is possible.

Apparently fakeclaiming a guilty's not enough...

You should ask Creature.

Apparently a real guilty isn’t enough either.

SOMETHING SMART OH MY GOD I CANT EVER JUST BE TOWN WITH YOU

[Morality]

I pushed to end the day that I claimed Informed of 4 mafia fast because I thought that could’ve been Aura’s info. Another reason why him being killed was the right call.

It kinda sucked RC and Shoshin replaced out. Boats and I were hard playing in a way to play against them, and then something_smart came in and wrecked everything we had built upon.

[Morality]

From top of my head, Morality, YellowSnow and Boots are all town.

Creature with the fake traitor trollin’ almost wrecked us.

I was actually informed that one of Creature, RCEnigma, COA was a Cop with modifiers.

And then i realized, wait, traitor’s Probably within that so we might accidentally shoot them! Then Creature posted that, and if you look at his posts on us earlier, like wtf, he’s working with us.

Then COA...flipped traitor...