Mafiascum.net

In post 244, Shoshin wrote:

In post 179, Lycanfire wrote:Whether he needed a reason to change his vote. That's crucial to figuring out his intent regarding FA.

I haven't said anything about EE's intent in changing votes. I'm just saying I don't feel like EE reacted to FA's manipulative posting from an uninformed perspective.

(I also think most of the "reasons" behind behaviors are unconscious so I don't really care to scumhunt exclusively on the basis of "intent").

In post 249, Shoshin wrote:

In post 184, Frozen Angel wrote:I can't follow this discussion

I can't understand anyone talking xd not sure what shoshin is searching for and not sure what is lycan hitting shoshin with and the reasons.

I find this pretty scummy as well so I dunno how Alisae's getting town on FA either.

In post 297, Shoshin wrote:This is boring.

In post 298, Shoshin wrote:VOTE: Shoshin

In post 302, Shoshin wrote:What's the harm in self-voting?

In post 307, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss policy lynching self-voters.

Frozen Angel wrote:

In post 307, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:I want to lynch it with fire.

I miss policy lynching self-voters.

I hate policy lynching

Policy lynching is like telling the idiots that you care for them.

It makes them feel loved.

Just moving on from this crap. hopefully all other pages is not just policy lynch discussions and there are game relevant content.

@Shoshin If you are town, the harm you did to game was way more extreme than 3 free kills to mafia. By making the discussions about if you are worthy to get policy lynched or not, you tried to ruin the day-game in this game.

@everyone Such selfvotes - as bullshit as they are - are not AI. we are here to find mafia. Please calm yourself and look at the game context and try to hunt motivations instead of pushing for policy lynches. If you think shoshin as scum did it, it's a fair talk but if you just want that behavior dead, ruining this game to discuss and pushing a policy lynch is horrible way to do it.

In post 312, Shoshin wrote:All of you haters need to break out your boxes. Self-voting doesn’t mean anything bad will happen.

VOTE: Doubting

See? No harm done.

To be clear, I voted myself to get a wagon going. It wasn't "AtE" or because I was "scumread." It was to consolidate votes.

In post 319, Shoshin wrote:Policy lynching is beyond stupid. I'll actually replace out of this game if that's what this comes to.

I'm going to assume for the moment it's just scum DT trying to manipulate this situation to his ends.

In post 326, DoubtingThomas wrote:CREATIVE PLAYS INCOMINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG



VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS
VOTE: DOUBTINGTHOMAS

In post 331, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:Congratulations, Shoshin. Now instead of talking about the nuances of the first ten pages, people are likely going to ignore the hard work I and other people put in to create specific discussion points and now we'll get an NAI discussion about whether or not PLs should be a thing. Thanks for the creativity.

In post 343, Extrapolated Eagle wrote:Frozen Angel please discuss how you feel you're being read by the game right now and whether or not you think that's fair.

In post 344, Karmeleon wrote:

In post 341, Shoshin wrote:Karmeleon, what're your reads at this point?

Spoiler: Towncore

Spoiler: Towncore candidates

Spoiler: Scum candidates

Everybody else is null.

In post 346, Shoshin wrote:I'm going to respond to EE's discussion on PLs briefly. If you're not EE, please feel free to ignore.

Spoiler:

Who sets the "bar"? Who defines "baseline acceptable for town"? You? The point is, reasonable people disagree about how to play the game. You might think self-voting is unacceptable while others find it perfectly legitimate. What gives you more insight than others?

I don't think you (or anyone) knows what's optimal or unacceptable. Mafia's too complex. In the post-game, it's easy to point at behaviors/actions that cost the game. But while the game's ongoing, nobody knows shit about what's optimal/unacceptable. How do you know that lurking, sheeping, self-voting, fakeclaiming, or lying won't work out this time? Different setup, different circumstances, different players -- all these things might change whether something works or doesn't.

So I don't think it's fair to PL someone for deviating from your idea of what's acceptable. I apply a simple (non-arbitrary) standard: If someone's making a good faith effort to win, don't PL them. They might do something you dislike but that doesn't mean you should punish them for thinking about the game differently than you, especially while the game is ongoing. Post-game, you can discuss all you want. But until the game is over, nobody has absolute knowledge about whether it's the right/wrong play.

The strongest players I know don't bat an eye at self-voting or lying. Most of them partake on occasion. So the idea that stronger players don't engage in these sorts of behaviors is demonstrably false. If anything, it's the players who never improve that limit themselves in this way. After all, how do you expect to improve if you put yourself in a box?

You attack my play as suboptimal. So what? Do you PL someone anytime they do something that you find suboptimal? I'd hope that you at least have the humility to recognize that just because you think something's wrong during a game doesn't mean it's actually wrong (this turns out to be the case with reads quite often, for example). I usually get called "bad," "horrible," "atrocious," etc. during games by players who later call me "amazing," "GOAT," "MVP," "god tier," in the post-game. What's happening there? Incomplete knowledge shades how you view things.

And that applies anytime you're pushing a PL. Incomplete knowledge shades everything you do. I'll also note, pushing PLs gives control to the scum because they easily avoid them when in games with you. It's also too easy for scum to push mislynches via PLs. And at the end of the day, it's always possible to distinguish town/scum regardless of what behavior someone's engaging. I usually love when players lie because it's easy access to their motive (why'd they lie? was it to further scum agenda? if not, they're probably town because scum don't lie without reason to do so).

For what it's worth, I have roughly a 75% win rate as town (if you include alts) so I'd say I'm doing pretty well with my chosen tactics, including lurking, sheeping, lying, fakeclaiming, and self-voting. While people might dislike them during games, nobody questions the results afterwards. I hope that you will revisit this in the endgame as well instead of attacking it with incomplete knowledge. I also hope that you revisit your view on PLs.

In post 347, Shoshin wrote:He caught what I was doing (building a wagon)

In post 351, Shoshin wrote:Vedith's probably town. I was thinking it the moment he called my Eagle vote bad. Defending me now solidifies the read.

In post 418, Frozen Angel wrote:I like your DT read though. I didn't like that reaction either.

In post 405, Shoshin wrote:I don't think it's fair to scumread me for doing stuff that townies do, Buj. I never said I scumread EE. As for DT, I'm not alone in thinking he's scum so I don't see what the problem is from your perspective? Why are you townreading DT?

In post 415, Frozen Angel wrote:About Ali I have a bunch of mixed feelings that I'm sorting out rn. But they definitly gave their town read on me "Too early" for my liking. They even said it was too early afterward but I have a hard time digesting it. Waiting for more context from ali tbh.