White Flag - TM2020

[Formerfish]

Ceph im here if you wanna dance in real time?

[Auro]

Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.

It's an appeal to experience, not authority. Esp *refused* to take a look at my town games where there's clear evidence against his reason for the scumread, whereas people who played with me have it.

[Formerfish]

Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.

It's an appeal to experience, not authority. Esp *refused* to take a look at my town games where there's clear evidence against his reason for the scumread, whereas people who played with me have it.

Do you have an issue with Dann tring Espy the way he did with no experience and no dive into current meta?

[Auro]

Didn't dann say he was just "kick-starting" the game by throwing out such a townread?

He said he's going to post soon, let's see if the read sticks.

[Formerfish]

Didn't dann say he was just "kick-starting" the game by throwing out such a townread?

He said he's going to post soon, let's see if the read sticks.

Thats true, and fair.

Thanks for acknowledging i posted.

[northsidegal]

NSG I'm inclined to believe you have time for TM *for reasons*, can you come play the game kthanx

please don't make presumptions about how my team wants me to spend my time. i never lie about real life circumstances and i never will.

[Cephrir]

Ceph im here if you wanna dance in real time?

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.

It's an appeal to experience, not authority.

You're saying those people are authorities on you and their opinions therefore are the only ones that count. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Esp *refused* to take a look at my town games where there's clear evidence against his reason for the scumread, whereas people who played with me have it.

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

[Formerfish]

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Cool, what do you wanna talk about?

[Espeonage]

Ceph, be the change you want to see int he world.

[Auro]

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

Let's try to figure where we disagree.

1. Esp said I'm scum for a reason X.
2. A cursory glance at my town games would show X in those games.
3. Dunn also says I do X as town.
4. Therefore, scumreading me for X is not valid.
5. Therefore, Esp should re-assess.

(I don't think X is scummy by itself anyway, but that's a different issue)

Can you tell me which point you disagree me with on?

[Cephrir]

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Cool, what do you wanna talk about?

Oh, I was supposed to provide the topic? Well, uhhhh we're somewhat aligned on reads so I'm not sure there are any that need hashing out. I guess you could give me some more words on wgeurts town? is it just similarity to your thought process or is there something else? i had no read on that slot and i feel like i should inspect it based on team feedback.

[Auro]

You're saying those people are authorities on you and their opinions therefore are the only ones that count. Six of one, half dozen of another.

No. I'm arguing in a very specific context.
I'm being scumreads for reasons XYZ, which are disproved by looking at my previous town games.
People who played with me before know that, versus people who haven't played with me *and* are refusing to look at them.

Again, which part of this is wrong?

[Formerfish]

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Cool, what do you wanna talk about?

Oh, I was supposed to provide the topic? Well, uhhhh we're somewhat aligned on reads so I'm not sure there are any that need hashing out. I guess you could give me some more words on wgeurts town? is it just similarity to your thought process or is there something else? i had no read on that slot and i feel like i should inspect it based on team feedback.

Well, yeah, unless you wanna try to talk me out of the tr i have on you. If you need to sort me still then you would need to figure out how I can help you do that.

Geurt was an initial tr because his posts felt like the could have been written by myself for the most part, its a gut read based off that mind meld. I wish he had kept it up, looking back I see that he hasnt posted in like 5 days, so reading the thread all at once doesnt show that gap. Knowing he gained initial trs from those posts but then completely dropped off the face of the earth makes me wonder if he was scum towning it up for enough cred to coast on or if he is dead irl town.

[Cephrir]

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

Let's try to figure where we disagree.

1. Esp said I'm scum for a reason X.
2. A cursory glance at my town games would show X in those games.
3. Dunn also says I do X as town.
4. Therefore, scumreading me for X is not valid.

I believe this is the point of disagreement.
-Dunn is fallible.
-Maybe the way you're doing it this time is subtly different (it can't possibly be exactly the same unless you post the same exact words).
-Maybe Espe thinks the entirety of mafia is situational and personality has no consistency from game to game.

Personally the major reason for my scumread on you is becoming the focus on defense, the "you CAN'T scumread me for X!" mindset that reminds me of scum caught for the wrong reason, and harping on dumb points like this when you could be doing anything else.

[Cephrir]

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Cool, what do you wanna talk about?

Oh, I was supposed to provide the topic? Well, uhhhh we're somewhat aligned on reads so I'm not sure there are any that need hashing out. I guess you could give me some more words on wgeurts town? is it just similarity to your thought process or is there something else? i had no read on that slot and i feel like i should inspect it based on team feedback.

Well, yeah, unless you wanna try to talk me out of the tr i have on you. If you need to sort me still then you would need to figure out how I can help you do that.

Geurt was an initial tr because his posts felt like the could have been written by myself for the most part, its a gut read based off that mind meld. I wish he had kept it up, looking back I see that he hasnt posted in like 5 days, so reading the thread all at once doesnt show that gap. Knowing he gained initial trs from those posts but then completely dropped off the face of the earth makes me wonder if he was scum towning it up for enough cred to coast on or if he is dead irl town.

Yeah uh, warthogs are very untrustworthy tbh.
I don't have a strong read on you personally, even after the longer posts, though I'm not sure exactly how it will clear up. I've certainly had strong townreads on you early before but not every game is the same and everyone varies every time etc. I'm slow sometimes and Ithat doesn't really bother me.

OK, sure. I probably tend to give townreads for the same reason sometimes even though I'm not really sure it's actually valid. I'll just look forward to hearing more from him I guess!

See I told you I was bad at this! realtime interaction should be really helpful, but I just feel put on the spot!

I guess I remember one thing I used to do in fast paced IRC games. What's your favorite season, fishy?

[Espeonage]

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

Let's try to figure where we disagree.

1. Esp said I'm scum for a reason X.
2. A cursory glance at my town games would show X in those games.
3. Dunn also says I do X as town.
4. Therefore, scumreading me for X is not valid.
5. Therefore, Esp should re-assess.

(I don't think X is scummy by itself anyway, but that's a different issue)

Can you tell me which point you disagree me with on?

Just to butt in, I agree with points 1, and 3. I'll take face value on 2. But 4 and 5 aren't the natural conclusions.

[Auro]

The meta thing:
1. I claim that *anyone* who has played with me before, or reads my town games, would arrive at the same conclusion.
2. If it's subtly different, then I invite whoever thinks so to go into detail - because that subtle difference is apparently enough to want to have me lynched. Refusing to talk about it is scummy, yeah?
3. This is one thing that's pretty consistent across games.

As to focus on defense:
1. Looking at whether/how people re-assess based on defense is a valuable means to gaining reads on them.
2. People will sheep me once I defeat their initial bad premise.

As to "harping on dumb points":
1. So you agree that that scumread on me is dumb? If it seems like a legitimate reason, then defending against it is good, no?
2. Are you alleging I'm not doing anything else this game? I want you to explicitly say so, if you are.

[Formerfish]

OK, sure. I probably tend to give townreads for the same reason sometimes even though I'm not really sure it's actually valid. I'll just look forward to hearing more from him I guess!

See I told you I was bad at this! realtime interaction should be really helpful, but I just feel put on the spot!

I guess I remember one thing I used to do in fast paced IRC games. What's your favorite season, fishy?

I looked back over his iso and actually found it a bit lacking in isolation. What pinged me especially was when he had a post saying:

Reading up, been mildly jetlagged as I flew to Australia a few days ago. Expect much more from me.

Then chastised Auro for saying he picked this game because he thought he'd be a little lower key (hint: it totally is, Theme is 54 pages, normal is 82, open is 88, and the large is only at 95. We have 17 pages), so it turns out that Auro was right, and I think hes the highest poster, so the warning from Geurts seems a little silly now that we know what we know about the posting people have done.

Especially when Geurts makes a later post about traveling again and that was one of his last posts.

And its cool man, i do better in figuring people out by talking to them in real time because they have less time to try and figure out angels and you get more honest answers. If you hunt differently, then do you.

I like fall a lot. There more things for me and my daughter to do and there are holidays that we are starting our own traditions for so its cool.

[Cephrir]

i don't actually know how or why i ended up fighting this battle on espe's behalf

[Auro]

Just to butt in, I agree with points 1, and 3. I'll take face value on 2. But 4 and 5 aren't the natural conclusions.

Okay. If X is an exact behaviour, then 4 is a direct conclusion from 2.
If 4 isn't the natural conclusion, there must be

some

qualitative difference between X in town games and X here.
Can you have a look and explain?

[Cephrir]

The meta thing:
1. I claim that *anyone* who has played with me before, or reads my town games, would arrive at the same conclusion.
2. If it's subtly different, then I invite whoever thinks so to go into detail - because that subtle difference is apparently enough to want to have me lynched. Refusing to talk about it is scummy, yeah?
3. This is one thing that's pretty consistent across games.

ok idc

As to focus on defense:
1. Looking at whether/how people re-assess based on defense is a valuable means to gaining reads on them.
2. People will sheep me once I defeat their initial bad premise.

i don't agree with either of these but it's not really important

As to "harping on dumb points":
1. So you agree that that scumread on me is dumb? If it seems like a legitimate reason, then defending against it is good, no?

I mean that you like to get argumentative and try to slam tiny sub-points that don't even matter into the ground to prove you are the Most Logical. And fwiw I also think that's a scum trait.

2. Are you alleging I'm not doing anything else this game? I want you to explicitly say so, if you are.

Not literally nothing else but you're spending more time on it than I feel is warranted.

[Cephrir]

I like fall a lot. There more things for me and my daughter to do and there are holidays that we are starting our own traditions for so its cool.

without giving away the game, this qualifies as a town answer, but the whole game probably works much better in a chatroom

[Espeonage]

Just to butt in, I agree with points 1, and 3. I'll take face value on 2. But 4 and 5 aren't the natural conclusions.

Okay. If X is an exact behaviour, then 4 is a direct conclusion from 2.
If 4 isn't the natural conclusion, there must be

some

qualitative difference between X in town games and X here.
Can you have a look and explain?

Both of those statements are categorically false.

If you do X as town and people have observed this there is even more equity for you to do X as scum. You obviously do it as town, you could take advantage of doing it as scum, it's null.

However, I have specifically stated that my issue with you isn't what you are doing, but how you are doing it. I have talked about your mentality behind the base action and the words and tone you use. THAT is the difference why I think you are scum.

[Auro]

I mean that you like to get argumentative and try to slam tiny sub-points that don't even matter into the ground

Not literally nothing else but you're spending more time on it than I feel is warranted.

Umm but I'm debating the top reason I'm being scumread for by multiple people.
I'm dividing into sub-points to locate the source of disagreement.
As long as the disagreements persists, it's a great idea to talk about it, yeah?

[Formerfish]

I like fall a lot. There more things for me and my daughter to do and there are holidays that we are starting our own traditions for so its cool.

without giving away the game, this qualifies as a town answer, but the whole game probably works much better in a chatroom

I dont understand what you mean, but im not too concerned by it.