Mini Theme 2164: Betrayal Mafia I (Game over!)

[DkKoba]

nora softing they did indeed steal the necklace it seems

[DkKoba]

DK does ur career make both speed and knowledge go down?

Only knowledge

[DkKoba]

anyways flavor leaf is claimed scum. The pgo happens end of actions at the same time as attacks. It resolves after tge attack. So library doesn't work

[DkKoba]

I'm setting the situation up for when I actually flip, and you lot are gonna cry.

pee pee poo poo

[DkKoba]

Albert said they can insta kill someone with 3 3 3 stats so i went to th3 gym to raise to not 3 3 3 cause it resolves first

[DkKoba]

thats cool ur scum lol

[DkKoba]

Btw if flacor was telling the truth that they were "controlled" it wouldnt show up as an anon atrack against me.

[DkKoba]

Albert said they can insta kill someone with 3 3 3 stats so i went to th3 gym to raise to not 3 3 3 cause it resolves first

if this is true can we kill cakez pls

This is scum slot ability

[DkKoba]

Lavar said they gave you sword and albert confirmed m
Give it to gamma.

[DkKoba]

Gamma please destroy the stupid lab I found. Im never going exploring again. Hot waste of my action.

Don’t say that about exploring, because I explored N1 and found the most hard-to-utilize-effectively item: a funhouse mirror that redirects the target’s attacks/steals onto a random target (it can’t be put on the one acting in NO U style). I used it on Lavar last night and it seems it hit Flavor Leaf instead of the presumed intended target of Dk. So that’s why Flavor got hit by a doctor last night: I sent a doctor somewhere random, which ended up being one of their kin.

So they tried to triple team me?

[DkKoba]

Albert said they can insta kill someone with 3 3 3 stats so i went to th3 gym to raise to not 3 3 3 cause it resolves first

if this is true can we kill cakez pls

This is scum slot ability

oops, kill cakez after FL**

Yes, kill Cakez after me. I thought he was conf town? Is that only if I flip red? because I'm not gonna

Ok give the sword to gamma tho

[DkKoba]

Sword? Hold on I might need to read my pt again

Not u. Was talkinf about albert/flavor

[DkKoba]

Oh albert used the sword? Funny. They were supposed to use their night actiib to give it away.
VOTE: flavor im gonna try to destroy lab tonight btw

[DkKoba]

Factional attack + anon attack + lavar redirected attack

[DkKoba]

Nora and iks attack eachother thx

[DkKoba]

FL please be quiet

Claimed scum in thread always annoying

[DkKoba]

FL please be quiet

this is a scum slip who know I'm about to flip town, by the way.

pee pee poo poo intensifies

[DkKoba]

worst and cakez also attack eachother. Scun dont have anon attack anymore.

[DkKoba]

U fos iks. Iks foses u. Be quiet and do it

[DkKoba]

Oh albert used the sword? Funny. They were supposed to use their night actiib to give it away.
VOTE: flavor im gonna try to destroy lab tonight btw

Btw ABR couldn’t have given sword away until today anyway

I can nearly guaranteed destroy a non activated lab. We need to focus on leasing EVERYONE tonight. Worst and cakex should attack eachother too.

[DkKoba]

i want tonight to be a hard leash night to destroy labs with 3 roll. I can do one. Ill do the one that was found earlier i cant find names rn

[DkKoba]

No one attack tonight

Scum claim

[DkKoba]

nora dislikes it bc it lets town disable labs for free

[DkKoba]

i destroyed both labs and was operated on.

[DkKoba]

so i actually lied and didnt destroy both labs i wanted to potentially catch scum.

johnny just so happened to claim the lab i didnt destroy so this will be interesting.

[DkKoba]

Btw I did VCA overnight and I intend to share the results of it

damn.i just submitted my actions and peaced out LOL

[DkKoba]

with no labs to activate we are in a bit of an autowin situation

[DkKoba]

cakez: solo killed lavar
gamma: conf attacked by scum
me: attacked by scum

cm1: operated on by scum(i think?)

[DkKoba]

ah fuck i slipped lol i did destroy both labs but yeah

[DkKoba]

Last scum/s includes The Voice so i would lean towards someone at least somewhat appearing towny

[DkKoba]

im literally clear but ok

[DkKoba]

*sigh*

[DkKoba]

VCA results: points only

SirCakez +++++ Scum
JohnnyFarrar ++ Scum +++ Town
I Keep Siteflaking ++ Scum +++++ Town
Noraa + Scum +++ Town
the worst ++ Town

I can expand on things if needed, I wrote down all my takeaways in my PT

Can we get short explanations for each

[DkKoba]

Also can we vote to accelerate this phase? If so i VOTE: skip dawn(if its not a thing this game pls make it in the next one u host)

[DkKoba]

At least the elim was fast lol.

[DkKoba]

well fng was hella towny so i would not be surprised to see an all scum on wagon thing

[DkKoba]

With both labs destroyed this is the point where we just force pairings and have em kill eachother... guess we're the real doctors all along performing tests on the other players...

[DkKoba]

why did u inspect? what is wrong with u

[DkKoba]

we are policying u just based on that action

[DkKoba]

literally what town motivation was there in using ur second action to explore and not just destroy lab?

[DkKoba]

thanks for lowering the town EV guys!!!!!!

[DkKoba]

wait i just realized i rolled nearly max on one of the labs i destroyed... damn that nice RNG...

also do we know if the lab got activated at daystart?

[DkKoba]

as in, lab got activated and then destroyed

[DkKoba]

i rolled a 7 on one of them so

[DkKoba]

my real ability effectively has me have +1 knowledge. i get an extra roll for any checks that require knowledge. thats how i rolled a 7, 3 knowledge + extra roll = 2 2 2 1

[DkKoba]

ok well no more exploring after we destroy the lab tonight :/
we have to leash everyone tonight so we can actually destroy it.

[DkKoba]

remember that the voice counts as a "lab" themselves.

[DkKoba]

id rather ppl attack eachother so we know they arent activating labs so its easier and we also can prove it.

[DkKoba]

nora ur not doing shit tonight cause ur dead todsy

[DkKoba]

we cant have ppl exploring like we had such a good gamestate we could have just straight mech solved and then it had to go and be messed up with ppl finding a lab :/

[DkKoba]

do u townread iks?

[DkKoba]

Then why didnt you attack him when asked

[DkKoba]

bc ur scum lol
You're purposefully lowering town ev

[DkKoba]

I had two actions and I used them. the hammer was too fast. I didnt get answers that I liked or compromises so I just did whatever I wanted to

if you are town you are the worst town at this table because clearly you think you know better and then you just help mess up our game state. im honestly sick of your play because you keep pushing anti town nonsense.

[DkKoba]

I s2g Dk if we vote out Noraa at ANY point and she doesn’t flip Doctor I’m yanking your right to control the mech play
I think the VCA is right. At the very least, Noraa should not be a primary vote target rn. I would definitely like to vote out Cakez here though.

cakez literally killed lavar???

[DkKoba]

hold up thats true. that might mechanically confirm cakez bc scum have 4 attacks total. one factional, and 3 by themselves...but honestly not all of them might have attacked?

[DkKoba]

meh im just having a hard time believing nora is really this bad as town lol

[DkKoba]

Im literally 2/2 so far please shut up wrt trying to say ive been playing bad nora

[DkKoba]

Iks is spamming thread with nonsense and its probably scum motivated

[DkKoba]

is dawn over yet

[DkKoba]

nora ur getting one more chance if u dont do it ur getting yeeted next ok? u follow what night actions ur asked to do

[DkKoba]

also was CM1 operated on with it being verified?

also who had the abvility that could raise someones knowledge by 1?

[DkKoba]

i got a +1 and a +3.

both are 1 shot? someone just has a strictly worse version of another role?

[DkKoba]

soemthing doesnt add up here. god i wish i actually went thru with making a doc lol

[DkKoba]

gamma i'm trusting u to sort dkkoba because i've stopped vibing/understanding anything they're posting tyia

if u dumbtell one more time im just going to vote u

[DkKoba]

can we policy her anyways

[DkKoba]

im staying up for the flip im excited

[DkKoba]

popcorn makes you fat

[DkKoba]

i am already fat i do not want to be fatter

[DkKoba]

im staying up for the flip im excited

the what

we get new info on d1 start

[DkKoba]

wee woo feel better lilith

[DkKoba]

ok so i claim both labs destroyed

[DkKoba]

i want the heal item

[DkKoba]

I need that tonight yes

[DkKoba]

VOTE: cakez

[DkKoba]

too many ppl with 4 speed.

[DkKoba]

we know that..

Who do u fos the most from most scummy to least nora

[DkKoba]

VOTE: the worst
You got it

[DkKoba]

ok so .


i say we should set up attacks in a circle and then chain people to an action.

cm1>worst>nora>iks>cm1

if this isnt right/it doesnt end game(especially suspicious of cm1 if cakez flips scum and it doesnt end game and cakez doesnt flip voice)

[DkKoba]

the MOST important thing is we do let any labs activate.

with a core of 3 ppl who are fully clear if we accelerate 3way/4way we can win.

[DkKoba]

He’s aided me and Dk’s slot early on, in ways comparable to what you’ve done
So he’s probably as conftown as you

I think you should probably be more suspicious of players trying to look/signal as towny given the voice role.

ive been saying this all game since i subbed in but nobody listens

[DkKoba]

well SOME people decided to go out and explore and found another lab

[DkKoba]

I have an idea on how I can 100% confirm myself to be town

It'd depend on something super juicy happening, but leash me to being the only person trying to destroy the lab

alright. but if it gets activated ur back in the limpool

[DkKoba]

VOTE: cakez

[DkKoba]

im too gay to read

[DkKoba]

VOTE

[DkKoba]

Matter of fact
VOTE: fun and games

sorry meant to quote this

[DkKoba]

i actually would keep sircakez alive if not for the reason that they are more suited to kill other ppl

[DkKoba]

PP's vote on lavar + their insistence to refuse to follow a mech strategy is probably scum motivated.

@gamma can u tell me what the rolls on the attacks were against you?

[DkKoba]

VOTE: the worst

this is optimal elim today. they have 4 speed and highish knowledge. plus their behavior has been intentional aloofness + coasting with excuses as to why they aren't doing more.

[DkKoba]

no i dont have time for it.

just been training fishing when i can

[DkKoba]

I HAVE INFORMATION THAT WILL LEAD TO THE DOCTORS ARREST

[DkKoba]

i have recieved a special 1 shot track. VOTE: cakez we shoot in a circle and no one outside of conftown visits the lab.

[DkKoba]

i mean it should obv be both of us visting it. it should be simple enough to kill it off. and no more exploration.

[DkKoba]

are u trying to gamethrow just for the sake of "fun"? lol

i just wanna win this game has gone on long enough

[DkKoba]

we need to leash ppl at this point and win thats literally all there is to it.

[DkKoba]

can u just trust me for just 1 night lol

[DkKoba]

like u sound like u wanna doc side now

[DkKoba]

who do u scumread if its not cakez or if game doesnt end after cakez

[DkKoba]

Gamma, I'll tell you why we're leashing

DK has an item which can auto-destroy labs providing it isn't activated. So if we leash everyone from being able to activate it then we're safe to destroy it

i told them it was a track ):

[DkKoba]

basically its autowin if we keep the towncore and accelerate killing ppl rn

[DkKoba]

@gamma can you please claim what rolls you got against you when scum attacked you?

@cm1 you also claimed u got attacked by scum pls claim the rolls

[DkKoba]

Youre conftown u can help disable the lab in case something were to go wrong

[DkKoba]

Or attack someone yknow

[DkKoba]

when ur 2/2 so far replacing in and ppl still dont wannt trust ur judgement

[DkKoba]

whatever lol

[DkKoba]

yeah it seems like exploring most of the time results in items being found? That's why I'm not in favor of banning exploration

Stop

[DkKoba]

The closer we get to lylo the more dangerous labs are

[DkKoba]

VOTE: cakez everyone who isnt gamma or me attack the slot below you . If youre the bottom slot, attack the top one in the playerlist.
cheers.

[DkKoba]

i think tbats hammer

[DkKoba]

do not explore. Labs can kill us.
Risk of labs > chance of cool items. Esp since scum can gst them too if we allow them to explore!!!

[DkKoba]

i literally just said what to do nora.

[DkKoba]

nora do u purposefully find the worst strategy as town and follow it? Bc the more im playing here with u the more i think ur a deliberate troll who purposefully does the -ev thing while trying to appear like ur trying to win

[DkKoba]

we're literally in the mech solve stage of the game just fucking listen please

[DkKoba]

ok yeah nora is a troll

[DkKoba]

akshly change of plans because noraa will invariably spite-attack me:

cm1 attacks iks
iks attacks johnny
i attack noraa (i will be doing this. lol.) + i'm going to the library
noraa attacks me
johnny attacks cm1

this plan is like objectively better imo, lmk if anyone disagrees
noraa's alignment isn't important she's just being salty
i'm happy to swap me for anyone in this list

This is fine

[DkKoba]

im just letting gamma see that they should listen to me while ee have miselims

[DkKoba]

noraa is purposefully playing bad just ignore. they will proably purposefully explore, etc. do whatever it takes to not help town approach a solve.

[DkKoba]

actually i dont like that nora and worst are set to attack eachother.

turn it into a chain:

cm1 > nora > iks > johnny > worst > cm1

final post follow this ^^^^^^^^^
gamma do lab with me

if u have extra actions either abstain them or use steal on a non clear. dont visit lab or explore unless ur are visiting a permanent room like worst is with their extra action.

[DkKoba]

because no one else needs to touch the lab (:

[DkKoba]

dkko it's explicitly better to have noraa target whoever is targeting her if she's throwing a tantrum and trying to derail the plan

swap me out for someone townier (JoFar) if you want, this still ensures one punch on every person in the PoE while also accounting for the like "worst case scenario" possibility of noraa's tantrum

stop arguing it bc i will turbo elim u tomorrow (:

[DkKoba]

Shouldn't people who aren't Gamma, DK try to deactivate labs to get more clears?

No. Fuck off.

[DkKoba]

Next person to suggest visiting a lab gets wagoned

[DkKoba]

honestly sick of this town

[DkKoba]

VOTE: worst
occams razor

[DkKoba]

im doing the forum mafia equivalent of tabbing out

[DkKoba]

gamma seriously. Do me a favor and just sheep me for ONE day. I will reveal all tomorrow.

[DkKoba]

We're not getting cakez. They're town.

[DkKoba]

Stop trying to derail and let scum openwolf by being all like "haha yes its ok if u do an action that cant be proven haha"

[DkKoba]

Bingle is crying in gy chat rn

[DkKoba]

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been as active the past few days, had a bit of a rough time IRL recently

So in terms of night actions, I thought I had showed a plan in which it would've been better to get more confirmed townies? And thus having people take turns in destroying labs would be a great way of doing this

I kinda thought that what I sent you DK would be a great way to show this too. In any case, I don't think it's wise for me to be involved in this circle of death.

Actually, I think the circle of death is possibly a bad idea all round, it potentially weakens loads of people allowing for scum to potentially pick off half of us on a future night. Whilst right now we're hard to kill, we could end up in a night in which multiple townies die leaving us in a very stuck point.

I think the more confirmed players the better position we're gonna be in

are you saying to have just 1 person assigned to attempt to destroy a lab?

[DkKoba]

actually yeah that is a good plan

[DkKoba]

after last night where i destroyed 2 labs myself i went into a mode where i just sorta was like "YEAH ME DESTROY ALL LABS" alongside my ability where i get my extra die.

[DkKoba]

ok so lets still do the attack circle IMO, bc we DO want to soften up ppl and force them to dock their strength to 1 if possible. (with no strength they cant rly damage anyone anymore)

and 1 person attempts lab destruction. id say person with 4 knowledge should do it

[DkKoba]

we have 2 dead scum AND they dont have their 1 shot anon anymore.. also id rather u not tonight but u can sitout the circle.

[DkKoba]

wait cakez has an offense booster?

[DkKoba]

tsunami claim ur actions

[DkKoba]

wait cakez has an offense booster?

if u dumbtell one more time im just going to vote u

Willful ignorance is DkKoba’s defining character trait

I thought it was their career.

[DkKoba]

tsunami claim ur actions

The correct answer is "chicken butt" tyvm

-tsunami

VOTE: tsunami

[DkKoba]

the longer you stall the scummier you are

[DkKoba]

classic scum stalling to fake claim something

[DkKoba]

maybe you shoukd claim now bc a clear is asking you to

[DkKoba]

oh fuck i thought we were rid of the person throwing. 72, claim the actions or die. I can read scum!you

[DkKoba]

I already caught my buddy up. His timezone is just the opposite of mine is all. Plus its not like anyone is asking my slot for a claim or anything. Besides Dk's "CLAIM YOUR ACTIONSCLAIM YOUR ACTIONSCLAIM YOUR ACTIONS", there's nothing that requires an answer from us.

-speeder

its scummy if they dont claim the actions that were in your PT.

you could have fabricated them and forcing them to claim on the spot is the towny thing to do. now i actually feel comfortable policying you.

[DkKoba]

nora you dont get to mock me when you havent done it
And i scumread worst too.

[DkKoba]

quote it

[DkKoba]

talking to nora

[DkKoba]

nah not about to encourage u to break rules lol

[DkKoba]

Honestly lost all motivation for this game so idc rly as long as inly one non clear attempts lab destruction that's whatever

[DkKoba]

so anon attack was used the night before where albert was revealed. One/both of the attacks were albert. One of them was lavar(there was a roll of 4 and a roll of 0). The mirror reflected an attack elsewhere. I think theres only 3 scum.

[DkKoba]

yeah just nora obscuring things is whatever theyre just vad but with 72 as well? That just screams scum obfuscation

[DkKoba]

im 100% clear so frankly i dont need to claim but i have already claimed so that list is wrong anyways

[DkKoba]

i swear you're too smart to think "ah yes, the scum are going to march into a mechanical circlejerk and survive by... uncharismatically attemping to confuse everyone... by using a different kind of list format for their night actions" like that is hands down the stupidest read i have ever seen in my entire mafia career and your vote feels slimy and oversold

this is exactly the strategy scum uses when mechs are stacked against them and they need town to not follow them lol

[DkKoba]

i agree its boring. mostly because ppl are uncooperative and we are going in circles.

[DkKoba]

VOTE: cakez

lets get this going tho

worst, i wanna clear u, can u be the only one to visit lab?

iks, you and nora attack eachother.

johnny, can u be leashed to stealing from nora? she can use the item before u steal it. u also may be able to get their item list which can reveal more since they have been quiet abt their actions.

am i missing anyone?

[DkKoba]

that would be good since it chains u to both actions lol.

no one visit lab pls .
gamma do whatever.
cm1 do whatever i think ur clear after careful consideration if ur scum then thats a crazy game u played and we can still catch u out later.

[DkKoba]

i'm also mindful if anyone has *higher* smartliness they should probably be the one we get to attack the lab

you only need to roll a 3 so its fine

[DkKoba]

well from my info he's pretty much actively throwing if he's scum rn.

[DkKoba]

gamma theres a GOOD reason im suggesting outside of cm1... plus game is prob over anyways i hope.

cm1's item he gave me is actually goated asf

[DkKoba]

you only need to roll a 3 so its fine

bruh. so many people have failed to destroy labs. dont make it sound like its nothing.

-tsunami

they failed against a lab taht was activated where u need a 7

[DkKoba]

deactivating labs is nearly impossible once theyre activated in the endgame

[DkKoba]

wait it is 4 nvm lol

who has 3 knowledge. im sorry im so busy and its hard to keep up i wish i made a doc

[DkKoba]

nora u literally just want to go into the night with no plan bc u are actively scumsiding lol

[DkKoba]

you dont have:
a) all the info that cmod and I have
b) are not clear
c) have been scummy as fuck

if i were u i would do what it takes to actually gain the trust of ppl who are actually clear.

[DkKoba]

yeah no, i did claim the attacks on anon night which i think are VERY important wrt the solve now.

actions that are confirmed to have happened are important to assign to people. this way we can find the pool of unclear actions.

[DkKoba]

no i would actually say you are clear bc im not a gamethrower

[DkKoba]

oh if thats the case lets do it that way since i know something too.

[DkKoba]

ok so switch out worst and you, and have worst / iks attack eachother, nora uses the item that drains actions to use, johnny steals from nora, and uhhh gamma visits library to boost stats?(not sure if gamma has visited yet)

[DkKoba]

because it leashes him to you so we know he isnt doing much of anything else?

anyone who hasnt visisted gym/library with 4 speed should claim too

[DkKoba]

i think johnny is the towniest of the unclears rn so thats why.

[DkKoba]

rn in unclears outside of cakez im at :


johnny>iks>worst>nora

[DkKoba]

i feel pretty alright with the "1 person visits lab and others are leashed" plan, gamma/cm1 feel free to tweak. i have a strong preference to disallow exploring for non-clears

[DkKoba]

yes actually ppl really would love to policy you

[DkKoba]

i was busy pushing the 2 obv scum before u so yeah

[DkKoba]

i swear you're too smart to think "ah yes, the scum are going to march into a mechanical circlejerk and survive by... uncharismatically attemping to confuse everyone... by using a different kind of list format for their night actions" like that is hands down the stupidest read i have ever seen in my entire mafia career and your vote feels slimy and oversold

this is exactly the strategy scum uses when mechs are stacked against them and they need town to not follow them lol

To be honest this setup feels so town sided, im starting to think there are 3 scum left. Is that possible?

This is literally a scum line omfggg

[DkKoba]

Nora keeps trying to argue their way into beint able to be un leashed and ur all fucking blind

[DkKoba]

as long as more labs aren't discovered tonight / the lab isn't activated we can just dogpilr and fix that the next night

Well if I'm the only one going to the lab then it won't get activated, like if it gets activated then you can elim me tomorrow

exactly ^^

[DkKoba]

whens deadline

[DkKoba]

lets yeet cakez already

[DkKoba]

Also what am I doing? Post a quick summup of the plan and then we can vote

ur stealing from nora

[DkKoba]

iks > theworst
johnny steal from nora

nora heals gamma

gamma do w/e just stay away from lab

cm1 destroy lab

im gonna abstain actions or maybe attack. havent decided yet.

[DkKoba]

ike>< theworst (attacking)

[DkKoba]

just no one except for cm1 go to lab pls

[DkKoba]

u dont do damage with steal

if nora dies thats like something im ok with personally (:

it should not fuck up the heal bc of the order of operations, i.e. items are used immediately.

[DkKoba]

does this face look like it cares whether noraa dies?

[DkKoba]

ok thats fair

[DkKoba]

using resolves first > stealing resolves after > giving is after kills

[DkKoba]

why hasnt your hydra partner talked at all?

can't let them talk without having it basically be an admission of guilt?

[DkKoba]

he was not around last night

[DkKoba]

He's signalling that he's town a lot, and doing a lot towards the mechgame, but not sorting players. It's pretty similar to my reason for thinking Cakez is scummy, outside of Cakez' shitty associatives with FL (and me trusting DkKoba that CM1 has literally thrown the game if scum).

CM1 has a scumrange which includes strong mechplay, and strong high-level manipulation. He doesn't have a scumrange which includes consistently, convincingly sorting players in the 'nitty-gritty'. This is the calling card of a deepwolf in mechanical games. See MoI in The Thing Mafia; see PRICKS in Echo Bay Grits SEO; see Punreader & I in SUPP2017Mafia (tbf this was a town win but it was soooo clutchy). I can go dig up more examples if you need.

You're welcome to half-ass your read because you think he smells towny, but I pinkie promise you will get absolutely slammed in mechanics-heavy games sooner or later. And it's because you'll get so distracted solving the puzzle that you forget to look for tells. Players who play mechanics hard are in town's "blind spot", and the

exact

place scum want to get to endgame is in our blind spots.



this post is cheesy as fuck but please print it and stick it to your mafia-fridge or something.

if CM1 doesnt clear themselves tonight if game isnt over then I'll consider it.

[DkKoba]

with the info i have cm1 is mostly clear atm.

[DkKoba]

tsumani hammer already pls

[DkKoba]

can u stop stalling

[DkKoba]

IKS/CM1 please

[DkKoba]

how do we got from 7->4 in 1 night.

[DkKoba]

Unvote and I'll tell you why, feel free to revote after I've said something

what are u telling us.

[DkKoba]

YO DONT HAMMER ME YET LET ME GIVE MY ITEM TO SOMEONE

if u were going to do so u would have already did this

[DkKoba]

TELL ME WHO TO GIVE IT TOO
NOBODY TOLD ME

oh i dunno, choose a clear ?? ill take it cause im thief proof

[DkKoba]

cm1 trying to stall out day even longer lol wtf

[DkKoba]

iks > theworst
johnny steal from nora

nora heals gamma

gamma do w/e just stay away from lab

cm1 destroy lab

im gonna abstain actions or maybe attack. havent decided yet.

ike>< theworst (attacking)