Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[flow trap]

I have a headache, so I'll see how long I can stand

[flow trap]

calls me all kinds of scummy for not being willing to vote fred (are you trying to protect your scumpartner?)

I made this point on part 5 of my wall, that gives me confidence on that point

[flow trap]

Ok, headache won, Spartan do tha thing

[flow trap]

Take this with a grain of salt, but I would always want to NK Prism over Fairy if I were scum there

Also, Scum defending scum isn't used often which is why it's very effective & I wouldn't put it past Spartan

(https://www.braingle.com/games/werewolf ... 09;round=5 Jeminy (scum) is the top suspicion and Skybep (scum) defends them, then gets a TvT wagon)

[flow trap]

Take this with a grain of salt, but I would always want to NK Prism over Fairy if I were scum there

Also, Scum defending scum isn't used often which is why it's very effective & I wouldn't put it past Spartan

(https://www.braingle.com/games/werewolf ... 09;round=5 Jeminy (scum) is the top suspicion and Skybep (scum) defends them, then gets a TvT wagon)

[flow trap]

Start of Day 2 - Page 50:
Cop got NKed, which sucks a lot as it really throws off my game whenever it happens this early. I say we are in the Cop+Doctor world, but later retract it due to it being based on the mafia already knowing there was a cop in game. I still think we are in no doc world. I mildly suspect Prism/Quiet/FaC for that NK. FaC seemed new and therefore could’ve eaten the person that suspected them most. Prism’s has already been retracted previously in part 4. Quiet was because they TRed Zoomer, and as it is hard for mafia to suspect known innocents, mafia generally goes for their TRs, whether a subconscious thing or not, I have seen it multiple times. I still PRR Salsafairy (saying I PRR both NKs probably doesn’t look good for me, but whatever, it’s true; I would have NKed Salsa first anyways).

I had some mild suspicion on Flow trap (generally find them hard to read)

Cross off that bingo square. 1050-160 is some Floo+Spartan interactions, and they’re disagreeing. Also, Spartan suggests the possibility of a Prism wagon. I guess this is some information against Floo+Spartan, but not strong. I start a pair analysis, and take forever to finish because I procrastinated. Spartan asking me for possible partnerships is… funny & strange from my POV. The Spartan “Are you protecting them?” thing was kind of suspicious but more null than anything.

I could see salsa being one of those who like to purposefully put wolf tells to make them not wolf tells

I said this because someone who I play with, whenever I call them out on doing something suspicious, they keep doing it, do it more, and do it in future games. They don’t do it as much when they are mafia.

I'm trying to figure out where the narrative of scum!Spartan is coming from, because I just do not see it. Only one scum game to compare to, like, 3+ years ago in an open setup (and I can't even find the gamethread), but given how quiet this thread has been in the last few days, I don't see why scum would be popping in, trying to get things moving again. Like for a game that has 45 pages of content, we've made maybe 3? Since the night?

I don't get the two different standards being applied to myself and Spartan here. I've been trying to flog content out of Frederick, flow trap, yourself, and floo the entire day. Spartan's high effort but the defense of Enchant was deeply questionable, and he's been making vague statements about "scum on the wagon" "feels like TvS" etc. without specifying who they were the entire game.

So I'm jumping on the Salsa wagon today. Other wagons I'd consider: Prism, Floo, because I sure as hell aren't going to be able to sort them by reading them. No interest in a Fred vote today, I think enough people can eliminate that slot if my gut is wrong about that one without me. When I get a moment, I'm going to see if defensive towny vibes are a thing for Salsa generally, or if this is a deviation, because I'm still early enough in my mafia career to enjoy meta.

You had no problem calling me town Day 1. One of the things that most bothered me about your slot was that 793 was spot on. My intuition was that you had the assistance of knowing my alignment. It annoyed me to think that I could be read off of a single post but in this case it's true-in no world do I step in to rein in flow trap there, and my meta establishes this extremely well. I can backlink you later if you want but the only time I did similar as scum was my first game onsite, and I lost for it. Realizing this was unfair and that I needed to set my pride aside was a big part of why I backed off today.

I like this post from Prism because it shows that they are questioning Quiet still. This makes me feel better about it not being Prism+Quiet. My vote on Prism was a Noco vote (vote on TR). Sorry for being vague here, I only had a gut feeling.

Salsa, I suspect quite, what do you think of that?

VOTE: Quiet

This is where I start to turn away from the idea that Salsafairy is PR, and instead just scum. My first thought was Salsafairy+Quiet, so I decided to see if SF would react in a dismissive way to a Quiet accusation.

I'm trying to quote another game but I can't figure out how to (the server says something like "Forum is locked"), so I'll just post links to relevant posts from other games Sal has played. Newbie 2035 has no relevant posts to the current discussion, and Newbie 2042 is ongoing (I did not read that). Because the entire length of each one of these completed games is shorter than our Day One and Sal has mostly stayed under the radar as town, I have found only one relevant example.

Newbie 2039
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12298058
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12299804
In this game we see Salsabil responding to a bad accusation (I agree that triple posting is a bad reason for a scumread). She asks the accuser to substantiate their vote and, when the reason is stated, calls it out as a "crappy reason" and asks them to argue rationally. All while including elements of mocking/dismissiveness/flippantness (whatever you want to call it) mixed into her language. Big difference from this game.

Drawing a somewhat solid conclusion from 1 example is something I do frequently as scum. Post 1160 by quiet kind of solidifies the theory that it’s just their personality, so minus negative points there.

I've always seen being diplomatic as a scum tell

I have very, very bad news for you about me as a player lmao

In general I don't think this tell is the worst-particularly if the person is overdoing it or not taking any real stances-but becoming more diplomatic and communicate effectively with others is literally

my entire purpose for playing the game of mafia.

I don't enjoy the puzzle or solving aspect at all.

I just want to say I believe that, 10 points for Prism.

In 1058, as I explained, I didn't take the time to form a read on Prism. There were some scummy posts I saw from Sal that caught my attention more.

I find this scummy now, they had plenty of time to format everything, they chose to do that instead of reading Prism. I’m starting to think this isn’t just town that doesn't want to be scummy.

Spartan117

, hope you don't forget about my 1080 post.

Spartan doesn’t respond to this, which is interesting since they’ve been on me for not sharing my “why” the whole game. I don't think they would have missed it since Salsafairy brought it up twice. Thinking of Prism’s style of play, I think I can actually get the early SR on floo. Floo did seem to be causing discord, which is something Prism said they like to do when they are scum. It is definitely consistent with what they were saying, town points for Prism. I’m pretty sure Spartan says Floo is their strongest TR after Prism SRs Floo, correct me on that if I’m wrong & I don’t know what Orange’s logic was, and that’s the start of day 2.

[flow trap]

Are you sold on prism town?
In a world where it's {quiet, spartan, flow trap}, how are you feeling?

I almost never locktown, but I'm still 90% sure it's floo over prism atm

I'm definitely leaning Spartan who is a SR over you who is a NR

[flow trap]

While I'm thinking about it, Spartan, you're experienced enough to meta. Review my scumgames. Pull a towngame that isn't Mini Normal 2181 where I hated the table. Extremely stark difference.

It's Elo, you can spare the hour.

Spartan, do this

Spartan, I haven't forgotten this

[flow trap]

I mildly suspect Prism/Quiet/FaC for that NK. FaC seemed new and therefore could’ve eaten the person that suspected them most. Prism’s has already been retracted previously in part 4.

I didn't see this, is it in 1787?

I definitely remember typing why, let me check on notes, give me second

[flow trap]

Ah, it was actually part 2

You said you would NK people who aren't going to be shot, and you proved ot, so that's why O said that

[flow trap]

hot

I mean we could do it now with Prism and Floo, it would also catch Spartan off guard

Granted it would also catch you off guard

[flow trap]

um what was that automatic quoting thing

[flow trap]

Like do a Spartan v I this round instead

[flow trap]

hot

I mean we could do it now with Prism and Floo, it would also catch Spartan off guard

Granted it would also catch you off guard

I take it you agree quiet is town, then?

By comparison but I'm going complete my analysis first

[flow trap]

I am fucking stupid lmao ignore that flow trap I am sorry

Me being oblivious again:

[flow trap]

Oh I update my reads

a lot

so I thought you were asking for my current thoughts

Like my first game I was a ping pong ball it was worse back then since I didn't know how to handle my vote yet and I switched it so much

[flow trap]

I need to learn to not use run-in sentences

"ping pong ball. It was worse"

[flow trap]

Most the evidence I have found is circumstantial

[flow trap]

Spoiler:

The kill might have put you under a little more suspicion, you got a problem with that? Why do you have to shut off discussion about yourself being scum, rather than working through why fairy died instead of a fearkill? Why do you take such a negative tone with it when it is a completely normal observation for anyone to have? It is a NAI post, if I can evaluate my own posts.

1. I started out the day puzzling through the kill and whether I should reconsider you because I expected a quiet shot before eventually reverse engineering it and realizing the answer was absolutely fuckin not
2. You literally have dodged justifying how that statement about shooting widely townread players (Fairy) makes any sense FYPOV as town like 4x now
3. You openly baited the Salsabil slot into getting more mad so you could push her, you opened with a general statement that was clearly targeted at me w/ the 'aggressive, confident' garbage, and now you're crying that I'm too negative because I demanded you justify your garbage.

floo is

shocked

that I am playing aggressively at a scumread that repeatedly refuses to answer basic questions, and is now confirmed scum to me.

If you're upset that the fairy kill didn't actually do shit for you, which is probably why the only substantial comments you've made today are about the nightkill, a bunch of garbage AtE, and nothing about the 3 non-Prism players actively sorting you, maybe you should have shot me instead.

This is the most town post I have seen all game

[flow trap]

The fairy kill incentive happens so much more when flow trap is scum.

I never NK people who outright suspect me

[flow trap]

Idk I feel like a Spartan/floo team could have targeted Flow Trap for a miselim today after killing you.
That seems like the best play. The game was set up for that. Get one of fairy, you, or me to vote them. It’s plausible.

Well, I threw a wrench in that plan by turning it up a notch

[flow trap]

Are you sold on prism town?
In a world where it's {quiet, spartan, flow trap}, how are you feeling?

I almost never locktown, but I'm still 90% sure it's floo over prism atm

I'm definitely leaning Spartan who is a SR over you who is a NR

correct me if i have misunderstood this, but why do you have a null read on quiet? is that just a null read as appose to me or a null read in general?

Latter

I still haven't forgotten what Prism asked you

[flow trap]

Are you sold on prism town?
In a world where it's {quiet, spartan, flow trap}, how are you feeling?

I almost never locktown, but I'm still 90% sure it's floo over prism atm

I'm definitely leaning Spartan who is a SR over you who is a NR

correct me if i have misunderstood this, but why do you have a null read on quiet? is that just a null read as appose to me or a null read in general?

Latter

I still haven't forgotten what Prism asked you

Please see above, im not avoiding doing it, im just choosing not to do it.

Oh, so I can SR you for it then

[flow trap]

Oh, so I can SR you for it then

Go ahead buddy, im not quite sure what refusing to read someones who we have a pretty much universal read on's meta from a different game indicated scumminess in anyway, but i honestly don't think i am bothered on you scum reading me what so ever.

How do you read Quiet

[flow trap]

Floo, who do you think it is between Spartan, Quiet & I

[flow trap]

The fairy kill incentive happens so much more when flow trap is scum.

D1 NK was EZ someone who i was scum reading at the time
D2 NK was fairy someone who i was town leaning at that time

What reasoning would i have for the nk on these two occasions?

D1 - Some Arbitrary PR tell
D2 - Frame

[flow trap]

Also, Flow Trap! You've returned to your lowkey chaos god ways of giving one sentence reads and takes. Does Spartan's progression make sense/seem genuine to you here?

Not really

[flow trap]

Fine, I'll do it now if it gets the game going again

[flow trap]

Correction, I will do it when my computer isn't lagging

[flow trap]

Don't mind me typing the rest of my wall and spelling suspicion every way but the right way

[flow trap]

I'm scumreading floo based off of how he pushed Sal and how he reacted to what he got.

This does kind of require the Salsabil slot to be town

and have a town reaction but my whole point here is that it felt like floo was working backwards from a desired answer of Salsabil scum rather than coming to it organically. This is one of the few tells I put a lot of faith in and have a good track record on.

@Prism

Is there any chance that you would NK Fairy to push Floo?

[flow trap]

Same question to Floo

[flow trap]

On D3 he is more stridently insistent that he is town and hell-bent on the 99.9999...% sure read (oops, esotericzoomer!) than even D2.

This is invalid due to a different subject, do you have evidence of Prism doing it?

Also, this is invalid because it implies that they're wrong as town

[flow trap]

To elaborate on 2073, Prism D2 feels like he wants players to townread him, then he will get the scum and solve the game. He should realize that the better way to be townread is to first get the scum. It does not matter if the push is controversial or not, or he himself becomes controversial. Once he gets a red flip, he will be unanimously townread.

This is suspicious coming from someone who's being saying town doesn't want to act suspicious the whole game

Not to mention that in order to get a controversial wagon shot, you need to be trusted

[flow trap]

On D3 he is more stridently insistent that he is town and hell-bent on the 99.9999...% sure read (oops, esotericzoomer!) than even D2.

This is invalid due to a different subject, do you have evidence of Prism doing it?

Also, this is invalid because it implies that they're wrong as town

"obvious scum" went to "I am not never unvoting this slot." Prism implying "I'm so town" more is based on what I've felt over the game, I don't have the time to do a post-by-post counting analysis. Why would a town as experienced as Prism, who undoubtedly has had confident scumreads gone wrong, be so confident in this game based on behavioral analysis alone?

In retrospect, I should have not written that explanation when I switched my RVS vote to flow. The difference is that I was defensive in my image-consciousness in one post, while image-consciousness permeates Prism's strategy.

No, you do not need to be widely trusted to get a controversial wagon shot. You need only to be trusted enough to get enough players to vote with you, plus your arguments should be good enough to get some other players who might scumread you to join. If Prism can get 3 other players to vote with him, he will have succeeded in getting a shot. And he will have 99% confirmed himself as town in the process too.

No, from your POV saying they having 99% confidence reflects Zoomer, implies that you're they're town

And why didn't you just say that from the start instead of saying multiple times and then discarding it when you had to accuse someone for the same thing

[flow trap]

Quiet, Spartan, & I are going to claim next round right?

[flow trap]

Yeah if we claim now then there will be a definite RB
I mean there is a 25% chance of success anyways but better than none

[flow trap]

This is actually pretty curious to me.

As I've stated it's easier to read people who interact with you, and I was also weary of a pocket attempt how they read me barely affects thing.

The second part lines up decently with your play this game but I'm curious as to the first-you haven't really been as eager to jump into direct interactions or discuss other slots directly with people. What are the type of interactions you're referring to here/how have you used those to inform your reads?

This was to Salsabil after you voted her if you need the context.

Any & it makes them stand out more

[flow trap]

Do you have any issue with my claim order/see why I prefer that?

I just don't think it makes much of a difference if Spartan potentially picks his cc by going second, but it makes a whole lot of difference if you/quiet wind up CCing.

Nope, if I'm being honest it's smart having me go first

[flow trap]

It feels like a core assumption you're making here is that scumteams simply don't randomly fall apart, everything is controlled and operating smoothly at least partly how they planned it. This is not correct.

I agree not everything goes to plan

Source: Literally all of my scum games minus 1 or 2

[flow trap]

flow trap, I'm taking the lack of questions as meaning you don't really want to dialogue with me on quiet atm or have anything for me re: me/floo. As always, let me know if that changes.

Yeah, I'm basically waiting for Floo's response

[flow trap]

If quiet is scum I am actually going to chuck my laptop out a window

Honestly same, especially after SRing them last round

[flow trap]

@flow trap, what exactly is your scum philosophy? posting style?

My scum philosophy is stay alive as long as possible and someone made a spoof post of my scum game:

X might be netting unless Y is pianoing, will put a vote on Z to force the issue

[flow trap]

Well I have to vote like at least 2 hours before deadline cause I won't be on after

[flow trap]

but the points of their reads go ignored by other players

How is that on my end?

[flow trap]

Is it actually Prism+Spartan

[flow trap]

50/50/100

[flow trap]

I knew I should've pushed the Spartan meta prism thing more :/

[flow trap]

Even dead chat thought Prism was town

[flow trap]

Wait Enchant was the only one to call Prism scum

[flow trap]

Honestly, I need to have a note forum next time

[flow trap]

At least Spartan was more suspicious than Prism was towny lol net positive

[flow trap]

Day 1 of this game had about the same amount of posts as an average newbie game