TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Cephrir]

sort of

should i be feeling some type of way?

[Cephrir]

if ur wondering if i know what you're talking about, no

[Cephrir]

Ceph is pinging me today. I feel as though he's following the path of least resistance rather than genuinely trying to solve the game.

:shrug:

there are like 5 people i want to make dead and i feel like i need some scum flips to get a sense of what's actually going on

[Cephrir]

Ceph is pinging me today. I feel as though he's following the path of least resistance rather than genuinely trying to solve the game.

:shrug:

there are like 5 people i want to make dead and i feel like i need some scum flips to get a sense of what's actually going on

which 5 again?

titus/jjh/luca/bell
i don't want to kill ythan anymore, but winter/hop are also candidates

i guess i should try to sort these people or something

[Cephrir]

yall playing some sort of 4d chess game right now that's about a mile over my head apparently

[Cephrir]

Ceph, you've been shading me all day but haven't given a single reason for why you SR me.

yeah, i just suspected your predecessor and now so did two dead townies whose opinions i hold in high regard and you have made no impression on me whatsoever

[Cephrir]

We are no longer accepting further townslips of ignorance at the moment.

if that's the case then are you gonna share it with the class now or nah

[Cephrir]

im so confused i have no idea what Ythan or Oka are talking about goddammit am i just a fucking idiot

it's ok we're stupid together

[Cephrir]

i think i'm going to not care until someone deigns to bring this knowledge to the kingdoms of pig

[Cephrir]

let's keep being confusing and have a conversation that everyone but ceph understands

[Cephrir]

Of course that was a shitpost you guys are ridiculous

[Cephrir]

i have a secret fear that dunn could be deepwolfing but yes that's basically great

[Cephrir]

your options are a50 and mastina

i don't envy you

[Cephrir]

how about we don't talk about who the vig is or isn't thanks!

[Cephrir]

oh my god we weren't eliming you anyway agggghhhhhh

[Cephrir]

i hate towns

a50 you were just in tenet, where town completely threw the game to us by massclaiming for no reason

come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[Cephrir]

i s2g i am the only person on this website that can keep a role in their pants for more than 2 day phases

[Cephrir]

no, we can't, because he's plainly town and has been the whole god damn time.

[Cephrir]

lol I'm increasingly unsure Luca is town but that'll have to wait until tomorrow

there's no chance of this being a crumb, is there?

[Cephrir]

babysitter is like literally the worst role to direct so... don't

[Cephrir]

Or AGar for that matter or IV.

you're the designated town player who gets dragged over the finish line kicking and screaming this game. accept it now and save some noise.

[Cephrir]

Or AGar for that matter or IV.

you're the designated town player who gets dragged over the finish line kicking and screaming this game. accept it now and save some noise.

Seriously show me a post you made that isn't shit because this isn't it

go jump in a lake

[Cephrir]

man, winter flakes more like winter... flakes

because he's flaking on this game every time we stop poking him

[Cephrir]

anyway peace

i wish all players not voting for the town babysitter a very pleasant evening

[Cephrir]

i think it's fine to leave room to wifom onto a doc save.

[Cephrir]

i don't have enough hubris to bet the game that aggressively

[Cephrir]

also if you need more evidence for some reason: why does scum a50 claim here? with multiple players openly suspecting the babysitter for targeting titus?

[Cephrir]

his entire post history is town, i didn't need the weird fake guilty although it helped push me to move him to my top tier

[Cephrir]

Dont do that and if you do definitely dont tell us about it.

[Cephrir]

doesn't really strike me as odd at all

[Cephrir]

all mafia games are just math problems you can solve by coloring names in vote counts and then shaking a magic 8 ball

[Cephrir]

yeeting Ythan for a vague claim that no one is countering.
Unlike, the titus protect the DGB shot was logical.

???????????

[Cephrir]

Ceph said the correct claim for Ythan to make was vig, but didn't follow it up with a vote,

I was already voting hin?

[Cephrir]

You're going to need to place this into a form of a question.

Nvm I think I worked it out

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Luca

[Cephrir]

I can only think that's a scum flip.

[Cephrir]

Hey I had reasons. Rude.

I'm mostly upset with the vig being dead because it means the game's going to take longer.

[Cephrir]

(It helps Hercule's entrance was garbage, but honestly I was just waiting to Mastina to post one of these lists so I can do my standard Mastina play which is just to eliminate players in inverse order of her preference.)

It wins the game more than it loses the game, and that's a fact.

Also, lmao.

[Cephrir]

probably scum in Hopkirk/xtoxm/mastina bc innocentvillager isn’t scum
scum in ceph agar Oka mastina because of one of Luca’s town lists (don’t think it would be all town)

don't think either of these is compelling fwiw

i'll be more interested on the first point if you can find an issue to take with how they interacted around the wagon/their votes specifically

[Cephrir]

probably scum in Hopkirk/xtoxm/mastina bc innocentvillager isn’t scum

i'll be more interested on the first point if you can find an issue to take with how they interacted around the wagon/their votes specifically

but that was my "first point" lol, the people who jumped onto LLD after hercule got flashwagoned is a little suspicious, which implicates {Hopkirk/xtoxm/mastina/innocentvillager}

you don't think out of hercule's 3 buddies, at least one of them would help try to chainsaw LLD?

idk, Titus is gone so I offered a bit of my own 1st time VCA

it is true that it's probably prudent to go reread the actual posts

it is literally impossible to convince me of anything just by staring at votecounts until a conclusion comes out. I simply don't believe that scum necessarily vote in any particular way in relation to each other, the entire idea is sheer wifom. If their posts look like a chainsaw to you, or maybe their votes don't match up with their stances or something, that's more interesting to me.

[Cephrir]

Right now I believe the following players are Town:

IV
Mastina
Ceph
Poka
A50
AGar

Town:

Mastina, IV, Agar, A50, Poka, Dunnstral, Xtoxm, Ceph

PoE:

Bell, Titus, Ythan, Hopkirk, Winter Flakes, jjh

idk, i still think it's very unlikely that Luca literally puts his 3 buddies in the PoE, his posting style was stilted enough that it doesn't seem like he would do some crazy wifom move

isn't the idea that he wouldn't just as wifom?

i don't personally think that scum sit down when making a scumlist like this and go "okay, where should i strategically place my buddies." i think they slot them in wherever they honestly think makes the most sense. plus, luca's eod posts show he is no stranger to intentional wifom.

[Cephrir]

p-ed
at this stage of the game and with the amount of information available, i guarantee that scum are primarily tpr hunting with nightkills

i feel like both scum kills have been very widely townread and also happened to be PRs so it's sort of impossible to disentangle this

[Cephrir]

if herculuca had an evil plan involving blatantly forcing a townread on a scumbuddy, it's clearly mastina

i think at some point when you're giving a poe you have to go with what's actually reasonable. which of the town players in 3832 is seriously suspected by anyone? just agar? i feel like it's possible he was hoping for later days to improve the team's spot or add more poe options.

[Cephrir]

in 1367 hercule towns all of mastina-agar-hopkirk-winter flakes (alt of uncrowned). some of those are slots he should have been looking to elim later, right?

i see oka's 1386 quoted in this iso and it makes me like oka for town. hercule was also pushing him.

btw if anyone still thinks i might be scum check out how much i appear in this iso (it's a lot) and what's being done (shading and discrediting me)

[Cephrir]

that's really all i got out of that iso unfortunately, a really large percentage of its interactions were with me/oka/LLD. his stance on mastina is clearly one of those things that is clearly important but it's too hard to tell in what way. it's certainly possible he just decided openly defending his personal white knight was a good play to maintain the allyship

[Cephrir]

it's a meme yes

[Cephrir]

Wow, being run up to E-1 while on V/LA? Very classy, guys.

VOTE: Luca

Eliminate {bell, Titus, winter flakes, Poka, jjh} in that order and I believe Town wins the game.

Good luck

Am I falling for misdirection if I look specifically at Luca's interactions with all these people?

yes. ignore the fuck out of this post.

[Cephrir]

i feel like the new info should be doing more for me. i guess i don't have to adjust my reads since i wasn't wrong

[Cephrir]

that's interesting. i'm not going to dismiss it as scum out of hand but it's a little suspicious yeah.

[Cephrir]

Universal backup is a thing

good point

[Cephrir]

we actually have enough time to elim everyone i want to elim provided enough of those are hits that the game doesnt end

that's p cool

the fact there could be a town neapolitan with a result on hopkirk kinda makes me not want to kill him today

VOTE: winter hello can you please do stuff now

[Cephrir]

ye.

[Cephrir]

The above are the bottom 2 entries on my bread list, but now I don't think Scum!Hopkirk comes up with this Announcing Neapolitan as a Scum gambit. It thus follows that my solve is now reduced to exactly 3: AGar, jjh & Bell (but tbh I am still not 100% on Bell, so would rather vote one of the other two)

I don't think it's a scum gambit either, but how does that make hopkirk town? He could just be telling the truth. if the neapolitan had an innocent on him that would be a different story.

[Cephrir]

Your PoE isn't good enough, mate. You don't think you're correct on almost everyone, do you?

Of course not.

If not, then we need to lim in the slots that are not only potentially Scum, but also the ones that will almost confirm a townie if we get a red flip.

I don't necessarily subscribe to this philosophy.

Now, while I disagree on principle with your read on Winter, I also want to ask: Who gets to be unquestionably Town -to you- if Winter flips red? And who gets to be "most likely Scum" if he flips green?

It's a low-info play, I'll give you that, but I'm not about to sit here and do unflipped associatives - it's just not a good use of my time and I never do it. I'll try to arrive at those conclusions once I see which world we're actually living in.

I personally want to resolve the AGar/Hopkirk thing (because it's blatantly obvious they are not Scum together), or the jjh/Titus (which I low-key think can't be Scum together either).

I'm not bothered by this because I've already concluded that agar is town.

[Cephrir]

My desire to murder bell is weakening.

[Cephrir]

i've somehow gone from zero to burning for winter flakes alt of uncrowned to be roasted over an open fire apropos of nothing.

[Cephrir]

i don't know how convinced i am titus-luca can't have been a bus. i should review that/actually iso luca.

[Cephrir]

Yeah you're going to have to do better than a vanilla cop+ could have potentially a result on him that doesn't clear or not clear him.

Bzzt! Wrong! There is no sense in eliminating there today at all.

[Cephrir]

Also mastina has the two players I want to yeet most as town and also had Luca as very town so I am very comfortable in the fact that Almost50 and Hopkirk need to fucking diediedie.

Then I guess we'll have to yet scum without your help today.

[Cephrir]

Also like, mastina thinking someone is town isn't actually a good reason to elim them that's just a meme.

[Cephrir]

Because he said someone visited him? Because there's no way he could lie about that, right?

it's... extremely verifiable? why do you care so much if we catch scum today vs tomorrow? if no one comes forward tomorrow, we'll pretty much know the neapolitan is scum, which will also be useful information.

[Cephrir]

I mean I've actually listed out on both of those players, but that would require you reading a post that was more three fucking sentences and we all know that's too much of an inconvenience for you to do.

I read it. You don't need to be a dick.

[Cephrir]

I think Keely is capable of processing the idea that we shouldn't elim someone who may be cleared the next day. He's a smart guy. About half of the points you made resonated with me and Hopkirk has been on my suspect list since day 1 where he remains. I'm hardly the person to bitch at about this.

[Cephrir]

at some point some powerwolf player is going to come to this site and realize they can get town players to claim just by annoying them a little and it will be such a reckoning

[Cephrir]

i guess it already is an epidemic

[Cephrir]

I really want to at least force winter flakes alt of uncrowned to play mafia today and I would appreciate some help forcing content out of them.

[Cephrir]

Agar is at E-2. I do not trust most of the players voting him to have good reads, nor am I satisfied with most of their hop ons. I am personally town reading him and have had fairly good reads so far and also everyone agrees I'm town. Idk feelsbadman.

[Cephrir]

I actually dont fully hate that take.

[Cephrir]

But its day three and I need this guy to generate some alignment indicative content before we're in elo with a tabula rasa.

[Cephrir]

I really want to at least force winter flakes alt of uncrowned to play mafia today and I would appreciate some help forcing content out of them.

what would you like from me

i know i've really dropped the ball this game especially but circumstances are a little iffy at the moment

is this your main reason for voting me?

More or less yes

[Cephrir]

Right now my list of possible scum is something like titus, mastina, hopkirk (off limits today), jjh and you, and while I don't have the massive hubris to think I've caught everyone with that list, getting a handle on you would be helpful in narrowing things down

[Cephrir]

Excellent deduction

[Cephrir]

Half past never probably

[Cephrir]

Isn't the case on him just your belief that his arguments are wrong

That's a bad case

[Cephrir]

Regardless of whether or not you have won the argument, which is not important to me at all and I've honestly stopped following it out of disinterest.

[Cephrir]

I just dont think wrong and scum are the same thing. Nuance exists and is fun to work with

[Cephrir]

fine i'll go engage with his summary of points. i liked the new ones more than the old ones.

[Cephrir]

ok here. maybe i'll even read your rebutal after this because i'm so nice and in a good mood.

Hopkirk is still scum, y'all

Bullet points from 2340

• Specifically throwing RC's name out
  at LLD
  , knowing that it could derail the attention of a strong scumhunter, under the guise of a joke is scummy as shit. This was a couple hundred posts and 24+ hours after the initial comment by LLD. Why bring it up other than to throw kerosene on a fire and see if you can derail it? (1142)

I don't care about this even though it may have been cribbed from me initially

[*]Persistent using one word then when called, trying to backtrack and saying he used that word but meant a different thing. This isn't just a mistake one time and going "ah right, I misused that," it's a consistent pattern of trying to weasel out of being held accountable. ([A] 2079 initial + 2089 backtrack.

2814 initial + 3502 backtrack.)

I'd have to really engage with the entire argument to make heads or tails of this one, but I remember thinking previously that it seemed like a pretty understandable difference of opinion about what the word counterwagon means

[*]Recycling previous scumhunting points used by others and deliberately manipulating either the facts of what happened or the intent of the point to fit his narrative to try and bolster fake scumhunting. (2091)

I guess I'd have to read everything for this too, but:
-I don't think "recycling points from others" is bad? You're allowed to agree with other people, aren't you?
-I don't think the manipulation thing is something scum actually do and I feel like you've both accused each other of doing it and I just don't care in either case. I don't think scum come out and go "I'm gonna pretend what happened isn't what happened" because that's pretty, like, provable... I think people just argue past each other and use words differently and yes, sometimes exaggerate a bit without fully researching how factual the point they feel in their bones is because I do that and it's NAI for me too.

[*]Any pressure has been attempted to be discredited with the insinuation that things are personal as opposed to being scumhunting - discrediting and no actual defense. (1642, 2089) [/list]

I agree with this, I'm just unsure if it's your personality or scummy. I mean "actual defense" has been there too but you do seem to take suspicion from anyone as a personal attack

Additions:

• His reasonings for "locktowning" players have been the kind of garbage that scum make up so they can justify a townread they already have. (ex: 2399 re: xtoxm, everything in 3499)

Christ do I have to read this?
I genuinely have no idea what is wrong with 2399
I guess a few of the reasons in 3499 are sort of tautology oriented, and i do think you should've been putting more critical thought into trusting the "core lld pushers" at this time, but I don't think it's a big deal

[*]Supposedly I am his only definitive scumread - I'm separate from the POE pool now, y'all! - yet he has done fuckall to actually get a yeet on me. I've pointed this out in 3851 and 4174. Someone don't want blood on their hands. He's had three days to present any kind of reason as to why I'm scum, but he knows it's all horseshit and he'd rather burden someone else with the bad reasoning by asking anyone and everyone to scumread me.

Isn't this pretty much accurate? I don't think every player needs to be a mega aggro kill kill wagon wagon type of player, although you seem like you would be one to me

[*]His posts have an air of "I want scumhunting done!" but lack actual content himself and he would rather burden other folks with that. (3507 asking why no one has analyzed the D1 wagons, alternatively, ISO him and ctrl+f my name and see how many times he just throws "agar?" into replies to folks because he doesn't like that his pet misyeet is being townread.)

If the bit about basically complaining about the lack of scumhunting while not doing so is true, it would bother me. Is it, though? Because the example of 3507 isn't one I find compelling, and the second argument is basically just the point above this one again.

[*]4650 is full of the WIFOM-y bullshit that scum love to throw out there because it can't be proven, it's worthless spec, and it justifies misyeets easily.[/list]

not sure what's worse about this post than any other theory based on who didn't bus whom or what wagon composition was likely to be, and townies do those things all the time

:shrug:

[Cephrir]

So this is based on a flawed and insulting view of me as a person and backed by nothing but agar going ‘yeah, this seems like something Hopkirk would (only) do as scum’ and becoming locked on that without any actual thought on it. More likely he was doing this to try and turn LLD on me rather than pushing Hercule again. He knew it was a TvT and he wanted to make it worse by trying to misinterpret what I was saying in a crappy way. EVERYONE who’s commented on him has disagreed with him on it including- Dunn and LLD themselves (as they didn’t comment on it and would have if they thought it was serious). Despite everyone disagreeing with him personality read on me, he’s stuck to it despite having never met me before outside of the abandoned d1.

Agar specifically took something that was clearly intended between a joke and used it to try and start conflict between me/LLD – a TvT. Like it’s clearly just outright attempting to stir up issues between town

I can see how you get to this, but I don't think it's impossible he actually believes in his point instead. Plus, he's continued slamming on it with LLD dead, so even if he's scum he must think he has a good point here right?

[Cephrir]

- Can anyone read my iso and seriously say there’s no reasons there why I don’t like Agar? This is objectively untrue. A more substantial case I need time to make that I only really have over the weekend (unless I’m pissed off by stuff like… agar)

- I have a shitton of scumhunting. Well, I say scumhunting, most of it is townhunting since I prefer to find town then POE. As is very clear. See multiple games where I’ve described my style in detail to be this. Agar is my most confident scumread, but I’m also confident the rest of the scum are within my POE. I ask questions of other people on reads as it helps me sort them + I’m willing to sheep my townreads reads. None of this is meaningful.

-Of course there are reasons why you don't like Agar in your iso, but I don't think that actually addresses the point, "why hadn't you been doing more to actually get agar eliminated."
The bit about lacking time does address it, and is fine.

-I feel like I'd need to iso you to decide whether you've been townhunting to a satisfying degree and I don't really feel like it.

[Cephrir]

point 1 that you don't care about is the point where he decided to 100% scumlock me. in points 2/3 he's clearly starting from scum!hop based on that and ignored point 1 being objectively wrong

on the second point the issue i have is that he's clearly reading as though hop is confirmed scum and he's trying to prove it - which is how he's been acting since d1

Agreed- it looks like he's deeply confbiased and tunnelling. That could come from scum and could also not. Surely the lord of toxic 1v1s has seen this flip TvT before.

i don't take

every

attack against me as a personal attack, but i do take ones that are explicitly personal attacks as personal attacks. Agar is literally saying 'I'm so convinced Hopkirk is an asshole that i'm 100% sure that he makes posted designed to be inflammatory as scum'. there's not a way to take

the central point of why he doesn't like me

as not a direct personal insult

i guess. you seem offended anytime i criticize you too tho.

[Cephrir]

i feel a little better about you now but i mean it still is irrelevant until i hear what the neapolitan has to say anyway.

[Cephrir]

that he didn't interact with me on any of it to actual try and develop the points reduces that likelihood

well hey here's an idea. let's try interacting with him in a non hostile way too!

hey agar what does your team think about your case, specifically the bit about the RC joke?

[Cephrir]

i feel like it can be a little exhausting trying to explain to your own scumreads why they're scum and being told you have to interact with them about your points and give them a chance to talk you down is kinda anathema to how some players work. i feel like if i always did that i would never catch a charismatic player as scum.

[Cephrir]

man, actually trying at mafia is exhausting

[Cephrir]

can it just be titus mastina and jjh? my life would be so much easier if that were the case.

[Cephrir]

I do read it. I just dont remember every detail and I dont necessarily want to reread it multiple times to parse squirrelly little arguments about details.

[Cephrir]

Buying time is always pretty good for scum power. This is, idk, fucking basic.

Have u heard of cost benefit analysid

[Cephrir]

you can call me bad as much as you want but i'm still not going to help you mislim a50

[Cephrir]

more winter votes

[Cephrir]

anyone?

I agree that at least points 1 and 2 are town indicative but it's not enough to satisfy me at this point

[Cephrir]

I'm thinking about revisiting it tbh. He may have just figured out that belligerence scores town passes.

[Cephrir]

I dont mean just as in recently, I mean just as in simply. Not many.

Idk tho some sus ass motherfuckers just tried to assassinate the dude, dont love that

[Cephrir]

luca's iso is just as boring to me now as it was when he was posting it. i got basically nothing out of this except maybe a tiny anti-associative for bell.

[Cephrir]

maybe

[Cephrir]

luca's iso is just as boring to me now as it was when he was posting it. i got basically nothing out of this except maybe a tiny anti-associative for bell.

Was the tiny anti-associative my vote and general suspicion of him

the way he reacted to it with such indignation

[Cephrir]

agars was interesting. i like his d1 more than his today

- Dann/Hercule exchange in the 800s - I agree with Dann, I find hercule infinitely scummier.

I am under no circumstances yeeting LLD today.

Preferred yeets {Hercule/Hopkirk}

Ah fuck, I never responded to the Hercule post:

I'm not gonna look up all the posts you quoted without tags (I can't believe I did that last game) but how is "Hercule has dipped out since pressure has seemingly dissipated on him" your take on the last couple days? I dipped out when the pressure on me was explicitly High in order to just take a breather from the game and approach it back with a clear mind

I mean, it was a chunk of 30ish pages to be read and you were just MIA without word which felt like a direct contrast to how you've been present, and I freely admit that I'm really not looking at timestamps on those notes - they're pretty well stream of consciousness reading and typing out thoughts. I do like how that was the one point you honed in on, because that's like... the least consequential of anything I mentioned.

LLD was a counterwagon to hercule, stop trying to reframe history scum.

the highlights for me, in case you were still planning to do that revisit.

i dig these

[Cephrir]

oh i didn't pick up on that my b

[Cephrir]

pumbaa, 29
fun loving • foodie • not the brightest bulb • no worries
just a lonely warthog searching for his timon

actually a person like timon would probably drive me nuts as a partner but shhh

[Cephrir]

agars was interesting. i like his d1 more than his today

- Dann/Hercule exchange in the 800s - I agree with Dann, I find hercule infinitely scummier.

I am under no circumstances yeeting LLD today.

Preferred yeets {Hercule/Hopkirk}

Ah fuck, I never responded to the Hercule post:

I'm not gonna look up all the posts you quoted without tags (I can't believe I did that last game) but how is "Hercule has dipped out since pressure has seemingly dissipated on him" your take on the last couple days? I dipped out when the pressure on me was explicitly High in order to just take a breather from the game and approach it back with a clear mind

I mean, it was a chunk of 30ish pages to be read and you were just MIA without word which felt like a direct contrast to how you've been present, and I freely admit that I'm really not looking at timestamps on those notes - they're pretty well stream of consciousness reading and typing out thoughts. I do like how that was the one point you honed in on, because that's like... the least consequential of anything I mentioned.

LLD was a counterwagon to hercule, stop trying to reframe history scum.

the highlights for me, in case you were still planning to do that revisit.

You convinced me.

UNVOTE:

THAT is why I want people to say more than "I think..", "It feels.." & "It looks.."

i think it feels like your tone is very pointed right now.

[Cephrir]

i rly appreciate your concerted effort to prevent my nightkill by tossing me in scumpools now and then for fun but it's not going to work

[Cephrir]

w e k n o w

[Cephrir]

thank you for laying out the objective facts about who is the scummiest everyone, that is very helpful to the discourse

[Cephrir]

in fact every time anyone posts a pool of suspects, if everyone else could just post "ur wrong because that isn't my exact pool of suspects" i think that would really improve the quality of this game

[Cephrir]

I reread winter flakes (alt of uncrowned). It didnt make me feel that much. He's had a few takes and swings (like a read flip on hercule) that I dunno I maybe kinda like?

I think I want to vote either titus or jjh. I may be reading dead town again for inspiration.

[Cephrir]

Since its not exactly subtle in the first place I'll acknowledge that I can see mastina is acting like she has something on jjh and I'm doing mental math on how much I care about factoring that in. I think this could easily be her having fuck all and pretending, and I'm not really inclined to trust her after how painfully and aggressively wrong she has been to this point. I think they could be scum together, too. At some level, vague implications cease to matter and it becomes your problem if you can't play townie enough to not deserve my vote.

[Cephrir]

Titus my main problem with you is you have these seemingly strong reads like LLD!town and the_worst!scum

but I haven't really seen you try to push these reads in any reasonably forceful way. I get not wanting to add noise to the thread but your actions don't seem to line up with what you're saying. Like, you've wound up on the same wagon as Bell, purportedly your strongest scum read. And as someone who self proclaims to pay a lot of attention to VCA, that feels off coming from you.

[Cephrir]

dann went down suspecting titus. dunn went down targeting jjh. i independently scumread both titus and jjh.

VOTE: titus.

[Cephrir]

why aren't either of you attempting to solve the game.

[Cephrir]

see that bit about titus voting with bell in dann's post? she's been paying attention to that comment. she's been putting more weak vca-esque stuff in the thread and has actively refused to vote with IV now that it's been pointed out she would care about that if she were town.

[Cephrir]

@Ceph: Who's not attempting to solve?

"either of you" here meaning titus/jjh.

i think mastina's reads-from-mars on both of these players are fairly likely to be her trying to protect one or more buddies, frankly. she had all her eggs in luca and it went down so she just magically flipped them to the top of her readlist because of ~reasons~

[Cephrir]

largely because it's unflipped associatives with players i'm scumreading harder than her.

[Cephrir]

also: titus has zero life in her posts this game. i pulled up some random completed game and in even a brief glance at her iso thought she had opinions, pushed things, cared. she was town. this game appears to be a chore to her. why?

she's struggling to post at all here, right? she's succeeding in posting elsewhere.

[Cephrir]

Why are you not at all interested in a titus vote? What has she done that is so impressive to you, without using the word mastina?

[Cephrir]

bop is for players who are normally accurate

[Cephrir]

Then table it for one bloody day

yeah, i can do that.

[Cephrir]

it's fine just yeet titus and we can find that out tomorrow

[Cephrir]

i've definitely seen mastina specifically beg players for votes before

[Cephrir]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12543958

have we seen anything like this from her this game, truly? idk

[Cephrir]

in fairness i don't really read half her posts so it's possible

[Cephrir]

i was going to suggest that she is less irritating this game but then i realized that's definitely because a) she isn't pushing me and b) i'm town

[Cephrir]

Why bus with two townbeards?

why would scum want to work with two townies who are kind of allied with them? um, like, all of the reasons?

[Cephrir]

you think mastina is a townbeard while she's defneding you and pushing agar/bell who you seem to agree are scum????????

am i totally misunderstanding what that term means or something

[Cephrir]

i don't know if i see what is so especially heinous about IV's pushes compared to the pushes of, say, me. his voting history is like, LLD, DGB but begrudgingly, you a few times, jjh and ythan, which is pretty similar to my voting history i think

[Cephrir]

i guess i voted luca's slot more than once idk. it's not like all of those players have even flipped.

[Cephrir]

im sure i don't have to tell you that i think that's because you need to stop looking at the world through vote-colored glasses if you're town.

[Cephrir]

i'm not talking to my teammates. they're not really big on mafia tbh.

[Cephrir]

peer pressure.

[Cephrir]

this isn't the obvtown bell i remember but i do get glimpses of his towniness and he said he's more busy than usual this game

so im kind of conflicted on if i just like his playstyle or i am seeing real signs of him being town

this - i would rather kill titus today, she is scum

[Cephrir]

if you make me pick between bell and mastina i don't know what i'll do

[Cephrir]

i'm never confident! but if you want a thing, you gotta fake it a little

i just feel like she only does anything when prodded into usefulness and what she does post has about as much oomph behind it as a wet noodle

[Cephrir]

also yknow, the other 2/3 people i want to kill are softing a role, so

[Cephrir]

i took a slow approach to titus because i know that i often have difficulty reading her and i wanted to try and be on the same page as her for once in my life i guess.

ill be honest im not strongly factoring in that cross bussing thing right now. i just dont see town in her play. i did read luca's iso and nothing in it made me think titus couldn't be scum but i haven't seriously examined her side of it

[Cephrir]

also on the bell thing i think one of the possibilities for what yall meant by the conversation being fake is possible and the other is not a real action a scum player would take

[Cephrir]

also on the bell thing i think one of the possibilities for what yall meant by the conversation being fake is possible and the other is not a real action a scum player would take

are you referring to this:

and they roleplayed as if they were town? or did bell make the whole conversation up when asked about it?

and the first one is plausible but the second one isn't?

yeah.

[Cephrir]

fair, not sure what "slow" means in this context specifically? would you mind just like, tl;dr'ing the read progression on Titus over time, i still don't think i have a clear picture in my mind of how it evolved

i don't think i have an answer to this that would satisfy you without just making shit up. i simply thought about it more and decided some of my other suspects (ythan, hopkirk, bell) were not as likely scum because they made some good posts

titus/mastina/jjh is really just my poe at the moment of folks who have done the worst job of convincing me they're town, plus there's an element of looking at the reads of dead town players who i think are better scumhunters than me which caused me to be able to feel a little more confident on some of those names

[Cephrir]

it's probably interesting to observe me in games like this one because 90% of my mafia play these days is intentionally selecting games with certain players i enjoy and who i feel comfortable playing second fiddle to, basing my decisions on agreeing or disagreeing or suspecting those players, etc

it appears that without that i go to a very gut based style where i frequently change my mind at the drop of a hat

[Cephrir]

winter flakes (alt of uncrowned) disappeared again like the second i stopped voting him zz fucking z

[Cephrir]

you point that out yet i do not see your vote on titus!

[Cephrir]

I see why people find "resistance" to be an appealing argument. I know it's a bad one but I can't help wondering why I can't get any traction on a slot no one thinks is town

[Cephrir]

i want to hear mastina's claim tomorrow and then decide what to do with her

[Cephrir]

although i guess hearing it now wouldn't be the worst thing ever, but we're short on time so when she probably claims what she is plainly planning to claim i don't really want us to flail our way into a crummy bell elim like chickens with our heads cut off.

[Cephrir]

I see you prepping a trajectory to turn on me when you need to mastina

[Cephrir]

Still think this is going to flip town but go off I guess.

[Cephrir]

Well stop voting jjh then because that sure as hell isn't going to help anything.

[Cephrir]

why?

why isn't a lone vote going to do anything this close to deadline? uh you can't think of any reason for that?

[Cephrir]

i mean it would be a different story if there were a lot of people out her clamoring to vote for jjh right? do you see those people, because i don't

ill admit to having a brief thought about the merits of trying to vibe check winterflakes though

[Cephrir]

to me mastina and jjh are pretty much equally attractive options, so i don't feel a super strong desire to fuck around with switching it.

[Cephrir]

titus > wf > forcing a claim out of mastina and trying to respond to it in ~12 hours > bell

this is my current position

[Cephrir]

wf kinda shot up my scumlist here for posting without even acknowledging that his vote isnt doing anything right now

[Cephrir]

to me mastina and jjh are pretty much equally attractive options, so i don't feel a super strong desire to fuck around with switching it.

this is because i believe they are going to claim masons, incidentally

[Cephrir]

and if i'm right and they didn't want that said i guess they should've been less obvious about it

[Cephrir]

I'm starting to get paranoia on my reads because today the lack of opposition to the bell & agar wagons from anyone except bell/agar/Oka doesn't make sense unless it's literally just (bell/agar/oka) but it seems so weird they're all hard pushing Mastina as the dueling/counter wagon to both Bell/Agar and that hasn't changed the entire day despite nobody else joining it and them pushing it in response to both the Agar wagon and the Bell wagon

excuse u i'm opposing them

Ceph what are you reads looking like

{Xtoxm > Ythan, A50}
{IV, AGar, Hopkirk, Oka}
{Bell}
{mastina, WF}
{jjh, Titus}

Luca wagon makes me feel like scum were pushing it because Bell was also scum though

i think they would have pushed bell over luca in that case.

[Cephrir]

intent to shrug and sigh

[Cephrir]

do you think Mastina/Titus are every aligned here?

yes, i find mastina's read flip suspicious

[Cephrir]

dann went down suspecting titus. dunn went down targeting jjh. i independently scumread both titus and jjh.

VOTE: titus.

see that bit about titus voting with bell in dann's post? she's been paying attention to that comment. she's been putting more weak vca-esque stuff in the thread and has actively refused to vote with IV now that it's been pointed out she would care about that if she were town.

@Ceph: Who's not attempting to solve?

"either of you" here meaning titus/jjh.

i think mastina's reads-from-mars on both of these players are fairly likely to be her trying to protect one or more buddies, frankly. she had all her eggs in luca and it went down so she just magically flipped them to the top of her readlist because of ~reasons~

also: titus has zero life in her posts this game. i pulled up some random completed game and in even a brief glance at her iso thought she had opinions, pushed things, cared. she was town. this game appears to be a chore to her. why?

she's struggling to post at all here, right? she's succeeding in posting elsewhere.

you think mastina is a townbeard while she's defneding you and pushing agar/bell who you seem to agree are scum????????

am i totally misunderstanding what that term means or something

i'm never confident! but if you want a thing, you gotta fake it a little

i just feel like she only does anything when prodded into usefulness and what she does post has about as much oomph behind it as a wet noodle

also yknow, the other 2/3 people i want to kill are softing a role, so

i took a slow approach to titus because i know that i often have difficulty reading her and i wanted to try and be on the same page as her for once in my life i guess.

ill be honest im not strongly factoring in that cross bussing thing right now. i just dont see town in her play. i did read luca's iso and nothing in it made me think titus couldn't be scum but i haven't seriously examined her side of it

i'm not big on cases -- i'll assemble one once in a blue moon if i'm extremely certain -- but this is probably the closest i've gotten to posting one this game

[Cephrir]

I thought the flip on Titus made Mastina townier, what didn't you like about it Ceph?

Also how come you didn't vote Mastina at any point given you have her as a SR when she's been the second biggest wagon for most of the day?

i guess it just seemed convenient to me. idk.

because i expect her to claim mason and i am willing to deal with that tomorrow

[Cephrir]

@mod

can u prod ythan if u havent already thanks

this is weird time for the thread to be a fucking ghost town.

[Cephrir]

live video from ythan's house

[Cephrir]

Tick tock dude.

[Cephrir]

Oh yeah I did think that universal backup post from jjh might be something. I guess I won't ask why he would have more shots.

Not sure how I'm meant to believe oka when he didnt even claim actions

[Cephrir]

VOTE: jjh

this is literally unambiguously a scumclaim right?

[Cephrir]

i wouldn't object to a massclaim today i think

[Cephrir]

i interpreted it, since it appears to not make any sense, as a "screw you i give up"

[Cephrir]

im starting to wonder how this setup is balanced

[Cephrir]

im starting to wonder how this setup is balanced

which direction?

it seems townsided, it feels like we have a lot of stuff

[Cephrir]

I mean yes my point was that even assuming oka scum I'm not certain all these PRs can be real. But it's not really important right now.

[Cephrir]

you think it's totally impossible jjh could be a scum backup neapolitan? ignoring your read?

[Cephrir]

i realize it would be a pretty wild play to use that to bus oka, but just hypothetically so we can not worry about it ever again.

[Cephrir]

you think it's totally impossible jjh could be a scum backup neapolitan? ignoring your read?

or, idk, just a rolecop actually.

[Cephrir]

oh right, announcing.

[Cephrir]

It's impossible in terms of how normal games work, and how it's definitely an announcing neapolitan

is it? going by the wiki i see that a scum universal backup would be impossible, but it didn't seem to say the same thing about specific backups

[Cephrir]

yeah, it's unlikely enough that we are basically forced to assume otherwise, but technically

[Cephrir]

I mean if you have a hider innocent I want to know that

[Cephrir]

Oh, I forgot that they made it less stupid

[Cephrir]

I think I might be willing to entertain the thought that hopkirk is the one that's scum (or maybe neither? Your role if real (despite how weird it is) might be shitty enough to coexist with another shitty role), but it doesnt seem likely to matter whether I do

[Cephrir]

Yesterday's flip and jjh being all but proven town has sent me straight back to the realm of "wait am I just shit at this game after all"

[Cephrir]

Oka what's your theory re how jjh can even possibly be scum

I have a new one but it's so unlikely

[Cephrir]

You're substituting a question you like better for the one I asked

[Cephrir]

How can the neapolitan possibly be scum?

[Cephrir]

If he's a scum announcing neapolitan, where is his night 1 check?

[Cephrir]

And you dont think that's outlandish enough to give you some pause?

[Cephrir]

i feel like the chances he would target dgb are pretty low, the chances of the neapolitans being one novice/one not is miniscule, and the chances of him holstering are 0, so it's not exactly top of my concern list right now

i think town making arguably suboptimal night choices is a lot more likely than those things

[Cephrir]

i gotta admit i don't really see what going after him ever does for you as scum here, so if your objective was to make me have that thought, good job

[Cephrir]

well do you understand why jjh's checks are scummy?

yeah, it wasn't the first thing that leapt to my mind when i saw them but i understand

[Cephrir]

ngl i would not have checked ythan

[Cephrir]

Iv u srs? I SHOULDN'T live past today id be disappointed if u guys let me live past today

Why are we obligated to kill you over say hopkirk?

[Cephrir]

Or not on bell

Eh. This is vca. I care about how and why.

[Cephrir]

I want to iso bell before we end this day. I know I'm not top of the night kill list anymore but it's not impossible.

[Cephrir]

Bad reads deserve punishment

I don't agree with that. Shrug. This calls me back to RC eliming me in baton pass even though he didnt really think I was scum. Nuance exists.

[Cephrir]

I also dont agree that titus is never getting elimed this game.

[Cephrir]

So we should spend the rest of the game eliming the entire titus wagon even though titus is unflipped?

[Cephrir]

If I'm looking for scum on that wagon I dont know that I'm seeing it in the big pushers (you me and maybe IV). I'm looking at the sneaker onners (winter flakes). And when did it become a counter wagon to bell (or he to her), how did that happen, who thought their path to eliming not bell was to vote mastina.

[Cephrir]

I wonder if anyone voted mastina or Titus such that it was not in line with their stated reads.

[Cephrir]

I certainly am not prepared to clear titus; dueling scum wagons can happen and are really only marginally less likely than random, sorry vca people

[Cephrir]

do any of the people voting someone other than (Bell/Agar) or mastina want to talk more about that because the Bell wagon is the same people as the agar wagon and it feels like nothing's moved in ages

ive said my piece on jjh and there's a chance this is just bias but i'm pretty shocked more people aren't SRing that slot. i see no townie behavior there at all

like unless this is just super lazy town who is unwilling to engage with their SR (which seems super unlikely because jjh said himself that i'm like a really weak SR which in of itself on day 3 is weird imo especially because he's just staying on me) then i just don't see this being town at all

bell/titus are the only other reasonable elims today imo with bell having a decent shot at flipping red while jjh is much higher imo, titus being least likely of the 3 i'd say

agar wagon was bad

mastina wagon is bad

one of titus/bell is also probably scum which i think im even more sure of now given bell's posting about titus on the last page

i am willing to compromise on bell but i think

jjh/titus are more likely red flips

tbh

What changed here?

[Cephrir]

VOTE: titus

VOTE: bell

l1 btw

VOTE: Mastina

Forget it. I feel disgusted with myself.

VOTE: mastina

okay google yeah set a reminder

what is scum oka doing here?

[Cephrir]

much ado about nothing ducky

that is how i describe ur current iso

hold the much

i have no idea why you expect me to give a fuck about your vote on me when i'm not here oka.

to me ducky when u curse at me it means u care

you should catch up

just skim idk

do you agree with mastina? why? is dann actually scum here? i can vibe with dann so

kinda don't like this

[Cephrir]

i have concluded the following from bell's iso:
-he actually played pretty well and did some quite effective distancing from Luca
-mastina is town

[Cephrir]

if i had to pick someone present in this iso who looks a bit like a potential buddy, i have to admit it would be agar. but he also pretty much ignored titus & wf so those still seem like options.