Mini Normal 2200 | Game Over

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

also SS3 was really not very balanced well for the scum team at all and I could see why a player would not enjoy playing scum in that setup - so I don't really think it's fair to apply how you treated that game to say a normal mafia game.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

nah in SFA you were much more present and your readslist was fire.


like town players have less pressure than mafia players because they can just blurt out any bullshit they want and its not like they're worried about getting caught

scum have to actually think and stuff.

i dunno i just think scum!you thinks a lot more about what you say than town!you I guess?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

awww

we were doing so well together darling <3

I think it was inevitable you'd eventually get paranoid pings.

I blame that first dance we had.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

do you have a read on me yet, Pooky?

not yet!

I haven't really been paying attention to you at all sorry

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it's fine, i don't think it can be avoided.

pedit: it's okay <3 i said as much to you earlier. how about a read on Norwee?

I have norwee at obvtown :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Norwee is probably the towniest person i don’t

want

to be town. Yes.

I vibe this so much :3

specifically my norwee read has to do with

1) his entrance into the game and his mind state at the time

2) his responses to my comments about his skill, his play, and his reads - they all feel like coming from a townie digging his heels in and telling me to fuck off rather than a scum who knows he is fabricating.

I would be very impressed if he were replicating his town meta to a T.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

he's just salty i am crushing him on the PP counts

though he really shouldn't be since we are like best buds.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like who's going to do these pagetop scoreboards if not me? nobody else is as nolife as me :>

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I hope nobody thought I was kidding about doing this :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I’m just going to count our pagetops as joint pagetops and enjoy this game.

that's fair

I got your back buddy

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

promise me you aren't pocketing me again

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

VOTE: pooky

is this about those pagetops?

:3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you can join my team if you want?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Do you care about being scumread though? Have you ever even been elimmed on d1?

Spoiler: Pooky/Skitter Dance PT

Hi Beautiful :),

So I was thinking about your paranoia pangs about me,

and I thought maybe that was just your way of keeping me safe from NKs

At least that's what I will tell myself <3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Do you care about being scumread though?

I care more about being scumread when 'm putting effort into the game, otherwise not really

I don't see why you would care about being scumread if there's no real chance you get elimmed

being scumread is actually kind of nice for avoiding nightkillz.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

It's not because of the chance of being eliminated I think, it's more the feeling of being distrusted after putting effort into the game. I mean, that's mafia though.

which read of yours do you think I should be trusting you on that I'm currently not?

Highest conviction read where we have opposite opinions.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Yeah, the timeline being wrong doesn't actually mean Lucy is scummy for misrepresenting the facts. Especially when skitter22 can just point out the order is different (like she did). Everyone was saying it made her look really scummy though and in the moment I thought "oh, maybe Lucy is actually making things up to support her skitter scumread" or something like that when that's dumb in reality. It was the, uh, current climate of the time that got to my head.

I think it was more that Lucy's scumread on Mena was not very strong to begin with if she can flip it to Skitter pocketing Town!Mena on the drop of a hat.

Which would make her E1 vote and vacation comment feel very opportunistic and wolfy.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

is Scum Fark unable to be angry?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I was reading to the present times I also like VOTE: Menalque

Menalque needs one more vote to receive vacation

I would've expected something like

"nobody hammer without intent"

or

"give mena a chance to claim b4 hammer"

if you wanted to um deter more votes.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and receiving vacation sounds like such a nice thing to give someone :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

alisae was literally saying e was considering lol-hammering because e was high.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

well you were very high :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I've been SRing Fark for a lot longer than that post

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that's fine

it's pretty clear nobody believes me about fark scum and I'm fine with that.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

also when you say you don't like that post

you should look at what I'm responding to.

taking posts in isolation without looking at context is kind of silly.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

And in terms of emotions I felt like Farkran's emotions were genuine whereas yours (in that post at least) don't seem real

I am very good at faking emotion as scum

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Like here's the thing about using anger and emotion to be townread.

its a slippery slope.

when town does it, scum feel compelled to reciprocate. Things get more and more heated to the point where the thread becomes unpleasant.

I am easily capable of faking emotions as scum to get townread. I simply do not feel the need to escalate and make the thread painful to read for everyone.

I know I'm town, if I were to escalate my emotion and make Fark-scum escalate his act, it will just spiral into unreadable nonsense that is tough for everyone.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I believe Fark is scum for reasons other than that stance

I have made it very clear.

I believe he is the most dangerous of all the scum because of his positioning, skill and relationship to the rest of the player pool.

If he were to do things that make me think he is town, I will reconsider this.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't think he is looking for scum.

I believe he is looking for who he can push and kill.

There is a difference.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Like I usually do the power wolf push when I am scum, because I am very good at that.

I see his actions today and he looks exactly like how a powerwolf is prodding at a jenga structure looking for which block he can move and get away with killing.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

norwee-ss-skitter townread

mena probly town

fark/lucy scum-read/scumlean

alisae scumleanish

rest are neutralish.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So why does he choose to push and kill you?

he looks for weakness and pushes when he thinks he can kill.

he tried for mena

now he is parking his vote on me while he looks for his next victim

if he gets traction with me he will push here, if he doesnt he will move on

he is not really sorting, he is looking for kills

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I dunno what mena is doing this game

but i know he's the easiest person to push at the table

he is like barely here, his takes are not great, he's very far out of town meta, if he's town he's the wounded baby gazelle trailing at the back of the herd. he's the one the scummy lions will pick off first.

So I just look at who is trying to kill mena, and see which one looks the shadiest out of all of them. and that's fark. The timing, the progression, the way he lobbies for votes, how quickly he glides on and off. it's like textbook opportunism.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like i dont even particularly townread mena on play cuz its pretty atrocious.

but skitter is insisting that its NAI and I have no reason to see why she would be lying about that.

just on pure probability odds mena is like 75% odds town, so in 3 out of 4 universes this is wounded town mena trailing the pack if skitter's info that this is NAI for mena is true

which makes fark's push on him look very ick.

we are like 6+ days out from deadline - there's no reason to rush the elim and pressure for votes before claim.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Well I can certainly relate to his SR on Menalque as I felt the same at the time. It seems a little disingenuous how you're assuming a scummy motivation behind it.

Anyway I'll read his ISO later with an open mind. I didn't like his early play much fwiw but he's seemed increasingly townie

dude I had the same thoughts about Mena that you did,

that this looks nothing like blazing obvtown mena.

but do you think this is scum skitter trying to hard save scum mena? like really?

cuz there's like four possible worlds right


Scum skitter scum mena - kinda hard for me to believe she doesnt just bus him instead of sticking her neck out for him when he's like choking hard

town skitter scum mena - ok sure this is possible but then her belief about mena's IRL issues is still a true piece of information which makes this 1/3 as likely as:

town skitter town mena - this makes the most sense to me as the world we are in from both a probability angle as well as how skitter is playing.

scum skitter town mena - I think she just lets Fark/Lucy push mena to death if this is the case - like she's not getting any thread control out of saving mena, she's throwing a mis-elim away for no reason and like I just think she's much better off with mena being mis-elimed d1 if she's scum and he's town,

i dunno how many times I need to say this but this table is not going to be easy for scum skitter to get mis-elims on, it really does not make sense to me for her to throw an easy mis-elim away.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like I have killed a lot of townies on d1 as scum

and i know what it feels like

and fark has that same red glow in his eyes that I get when Im getting real close to a kill like he had on mena there.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

man this is gonna suck if mena was just scum all along and just clowning me with this wounded gazelle act ngl id be pissed.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Idk how much i seriously believe in Farkran being scum, but it does sound intriguing. And i like the theater-like performance you’re giving out of scum!Farkran being a hungry wolf stalking baby gazelle Menalque. It’s like a very good plot twist to an crime movie. The trustworthy detective giy was the villain all along.

i dunno dude maybe im just like super not used to fark's playstyle cuz this is my first game with the dude

ill listen to you guys you all seem to have like way more experience and i dont want to be like town dictatoring this elim.

i just really think the dude is scum

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I've already said I've revised my position on Menalque and I also hard TR Skitter now

I'm just saying I could relate to Farkran's SR, and Farkran himself has revised his position on this

ok sure maybe im just not being fair to fark

but like i aint gonna be always around pounding the drum on this guy

remember me if i get killed and this guy is still alive near the end or w/e


that shit will be on you guyz

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Probability says Mena is prob just scum for playing to his scum meta, and town!Skitter defending him cus he had one sucky towngame with her and now she thinks he always plays like trash.

this version of mena is like opening christmas presents and finding out you got a lump of coal

its kinda dumb

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

In particular i think he dug himself down a hole when he voted lucy - lucy hasn't been scummy and i believe even skitter came to understand that (correct me if i'm wrong here) yet pooky keeps saying Lucy's votes follow a scumdriven agenda - like, what agenda is scum!lucy following exactly with her vote pattern? I've been asking for an explanation for a billion years but the answer is always the same, "lucy has an agenda" - supported by non-significative absolute wording like obviousz/ridiculous/terrible without backing them up with actual explanations

this take is so so so so so bad

Lucy has been townreading me almost all game.

I have 0 incentive as scum to vote her or push her.

Lucy and you had a conversation a while ago right after this vote count:



You and her were discussing who to kill between Skitter and Mena.

I felt it was a fake conversation.

Everyone should go back and read this conversation between Lucy and Farkran.

Fark is for eliminating Mena

Lucy is for eliminating Skitter.

Neither uses very good reasons to convince the other that their preferred elim is more likely to be scum or the better elim.

It felt to me like two scum discussing their dinner menu.

I called out Fark during this convo and called his talk of "are we really flipping skitter" a WK soft defense,

His response was that he was actually considering voting her - an idea that I did not get from that convo at all.

Anyway sometime after this, Norwee/Luca find themselves voting for Mena - pushing him up to E-2, then Lucy who wanted skitter over mena jumps over and puts Mena at E-1.

I do not think her posting makes it clear how she makes ths switch in preferred elim from skitter -> mena - it feels like a vote of oppurtunism.

Farkran is also at this point putting pressure on Ali/Others to vote Mena.

This is what I would call a push to kill.

Two people directly oppositional to each other leading competing wagons suddenly converging at a moment of opportunity to push the easiest mis-elim without a good reason - there's nothing in the thread posted between Lucy/Fark to make one think that they reached a break through on why Mena is the better elim. So why does Lucy switch to Mena? The simplest explanation is that she saw the opportunity to take the kill shot and she took it.

When skitter arrives to hard pump the brakes on the mena wagon and claim he's probly town etc - Luca unvotes, this relieves the immediate pressure/danger and Lucy switches from Mena back to Skitter and claims Skitter is trying to Pocket Town Mena.

How does Lucy go from believing Mena is scum and deserves to be rush-elimmed to believing Mena is town being pocketed by skitter?

It's not like Mena posts some heartfelt plea or defense in the meantime to make people think oh this guy is definitely town, if anything his posting is atrocious.

Like that doesn't make sense to me ~> the real issue I believe is Luca's unvote making Mena not as likely to be quick-elimmed there - the ground has changed here and hence they back off and begin pushing a different narrative.

Fark/Lucy have felt to me to always be looking for which elims are

viable

, which elims are

easy to push through

and not which elims are likely to flip red.

His arguments against me have felt disingenuous, fake and misrepresentative of what I am saying. He has not tried to understand what I am saying - he just continues to attack me from an assumption that I am scum, because it doesn't fit his narrative to actually look at what I am saying about him.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i mean, pooky has been arfing at skitter's feet ever since page 5 or something, it would have been an immense scumtell if he went against her to vote town!mena

this is also a huge mis-representation.

it assumes that I am worse at mafia than skitter and won't go against her in a mafia game.

it is patently untrue.

in the last completed game where me and skitter are both town.(FL vs Hectic)

my reads were much better than hers.

I had dannflor as scum and she said no.

I had catboi as scum and she said no.

we ended up killing both of them over her protests

She knows this, I know this, There is no universe in which its a scumtell for me to disagree with skitter's reads and push them dead.

like you're just making shit up at this point

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

norwee/luca arguing over the definition of a crumb is super funny :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Town!Norwee wouldn’t be so short-sighted as this

He just wants to focus on one slot he feels he can elim, rather than solving the game on a deeper level

you have some really weird expectations about norwee's town skill level lol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

pooky-norwee-day?

uh I would've just hammered mena if i was scum and he is town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

She knows this, I know this, There is no universe in which its a scumtell for me to disagree with skitter's reads and push them dead.

Skitter, confirm/deny this? Would you have scumread Pooky if he had pushed Menalque?

you're kinda missing the context in which town!me pushed dead 2 people town!skitter was townreading and they both flipped scum in our last completed TvT game so there's no reason for her to think me pushing people dead over her objections is scum in and of itself.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

pooky's approach to me is way more suspect

lol what r u even talking about

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

or would norwee be the better vote here actually.
Man I'm really not sure.

am i supposed to townread this wishy washy stuff where you bounce from one preferred elim to another without any solid reasoning?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

congrats Pengy!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

what is it going to take for u to railroad me jesus christ

You'd have to do something scummier than Farkran

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

fucking 9 seconds

it's ok

Pooky, Pengy

One Team

One Dream

One Pagetop

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Ali rn be like:

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think we might be focusing on the wrong things but it's so much fun.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

she didnt find me scummy because her townreads flipped scum in that game


the point i am making is that farks contention which is that i cant ever go against skitters townread without being scumread for it is complete bullshit.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

town can have more than 1 roleblocking pr in a mini normal tho so auto assuming being roleblocked = day scum is silly

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Spoiler: skitter

sure! sorry about that

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it makes sense for scum!pooky not to oppose town!skitter regardless of mena alignment - i mean, pooky has been arfing at skitter's feet ever since page 5 or something, it would have been an immense scumtell if he went against her to vote town!mena, and if mena is scum all the better for him

like this isnt even about skitter scumreading me


he is saying it is a scum tell for me to vote/push skitters townreads

something which is objectively untrue.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why are you going along with SS interpretation of your original statement. is it because its more covenient for you?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

he says its a scumtelll for me to go against ur townreads hence i couldnt push mena

i said no its not becuz i have gone against your townreads many times as town

ss chimed in with something about whether you would scumread me for going against your townreads

now fark is going along with ss misinterpret of his original post and pretending it never happened.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

thats literally not what you said fark

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Anyways, this has little to do with you now skit, more with the fact that pooky's takes are bad, but they have always been bad in a way that makes him look aligned to the most charismatic part of the town

this take is beyond ridiculous.

my main focus is on fark = scum

i have 0 people who have agreed with me

most people have fark somewhere between townread and obvtown

many more people have expressed a willingness to vote me or have voted me.

i cant remember a single person who has voted fark with me

its like you dont even pretend to be reading the same reality at this point

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'm just really frustrated at how people are reading pooky's posts and don't see what i mean

But i've been there in the past and no amount of insisting is gonna change our minds until someone flips which is why i'm also working on mena

It's 4 days to deadline and we are nowhere near close to a compromise

because your take on me is not based in reality and its just objectively fabricated lies and bullshit

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like you still havent addressed me debunking your bullshit point about it being a scumtell for me to go against skitters reads

instead you just glide to the next bullshit point about me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

a town who makes a mistake will admit and recalibrate

he doesnt even acknowledge or address my rebuttal and just glides into the next bullshit talking point.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i find lucys switch from kill mena scum to skitter is wk pocketing mena town to be incredibly unlikely

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

a town who makes a mistake will admit and recalibrate

Not always

if he wants to hard tunnel and purposefully lie and evade as town then hes a garbage player

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

3. This is especially funny because you say you townread menalque and have defended yourself with the "if i was scum i would have let him die" but somehow lucy switching from a e-1 wagon to a 0 wagon against skitter is scummy

yet another REFRAMING of the vote flip by lucy.

I said it's scummy because the transition from "lets kill mena today" to mena is being pocketed by scum WK skitter makes no sense in that moment.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

its almost like she never believed mena was scum in the first place

@pengy i have to be on my spampost a game now that skitter has returned lest she steal my shitpost crown.

and i literally explained why i voted lucy in this post

which is in the aftermath of 1800 and during when i was talking to hectic about whether lucy was scum or not

so yet another bullshit lie from you about me never explaining the lucy vote in the first place

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like this is just a pattern of behavior in which you distort what I say, make up lies about me, and when I call you out on your lies, you simply move on to the next lie.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

because Luca unvoted so the mena quick-elim was untenable to push for at that point.

momentum shifted on the slot. there was as window where you/lucy were almost pushing the mena elim thru when mena was at e1 and both of you were pressuring for votes

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Luca is the closest we have to a consensus townread/townleader at this point, so his unvote sending mena from e1 to e2 and saying he wanted to re-evaluate was when the mena quick elim chances died

thats when lucy shifted off mena back onto skitter.

your chainsaw defense of her makes it likely that your previous conversation with her about which player to kill between skitter/mena was mostly performative fake thought

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

because Luca unvoted so the mena quick-elim was untenable to push for at that point.

momentum shifted on the slot. there was as window where you/lucy were almost pushing the mena elim thru when mena was at e1 and both of you were pressuring for votes

And you seriously believe the best course of action for the lucy/fark scumteam in that situation is starting a new wagon against skitter?

Seriously? Take a breath before answering

i didnt say its the smart thing to do. stop strawmanning

i said her transition is scummy and does not make sense.

using "its dumb to do" as a defense is pretty bad.

I look at scum motivation and town motivation and whether the action advances scum win con or town win con.

saying its dumb to do is just a wifom defense.

the most awkward place for a scum to be is on a quick elim wagon that doesnt get there

its like getting your hand caught in the cookie jar mid theft. and you dont even get a cookie

its hard for her and you to get off the mena wagon after you both push hard for him to die.

you still havent gotten the marks off yet

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I havent been *super* following aling tbf but i think this may be tvt

I don’t want an elimination on either. This argument between the two is something i’m starting to have a hard time following too.

cuz fark scum just makes up lie after lie and never addresses my actual rebuttals

its just a constantly moving flag post with some strawmans thrown in for fun.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

his entire plan is to spam so much bullshit nobody can follow along and then shoot me at night to shut me up.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

im pretty good at being aggressive as scum

you are talking about scum motivation

i am talking about her transition. its not even the same thing

and you still havent addressed why i would want to mis elim lucy when she is townreading me

where is MY scum motivation for wanting a townlucy miselimmed!?!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

because you never address my actual point you just move to the next bullshit lie

and this is yet another reframe of the situation we are in now

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

me shitposting with penguin is irrelevant to our conversation
me flirting with skitter is irrelevant to this conversation
most of my 400 posts have nothing to do with this conversation we are having now


but what is going on in this conversation is you throwing bs point after bs point at me

me objectively showing your point is a lie/misrep/fallacy just on its face and then you ignoring my rebuttal and making up another bs point

i am talking about our conversation right now

my 400 other posts about other shit is completely irrelevant

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and you still havent addressed why i would want to mis elim lucy when she is townreading me

where is MY scum motivation for wanting a townlucy miselimmed!?!!

1. Pocket skitter
2. Elim town
3. Probably chainsaw mena

oh thats genius

so im going to drive a miselim on lucytown who is hard townreading me

to lose town cred

to try to pocket skittertown instead

genius

genius play

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you realize ive rebutted every bullshit lie youve spewed here about me but you havent responded to a single rebuttal yet right?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

its ok u think im scum

i think ur scum

cool

lets see whos right at the end

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i havent really thought about him very much because i get very tunneled easily unfortunately :/

off top of my head i rememeber:

i thought his tr of lucy was strange.
i liked when he was talking to me about her alignment

I can do a re read of him when I have time tonight to iron out some thoughts.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Pooky, I'm on mobile but your case in 2908 goes very different from how I selfdescribe playing scum. I emulate my townread and play to get townread. Do you disbelieve my self characterization of think it fits anyway. ? I'm curious which

I think you and I both enjoy getting our hands dirty and the thrill of killing townies when we play the red alignment.

Most people do not like getting their hands dirty, they are worried about being caught.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

SS had a nice point about the disloyal part of Day's roleclaim

he can't actually block a town player and get away with it.

for example if a town cop or tracker gets roleblocked, they can come out against day.

also mafia would have to be informed that there are no town roleblockers for him to really attempt this kind of roleclaim? isn't it fairly common for a roleblocker to exist in a mini normal?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

eh i'm p sure i've seen normals with more than one rb
ss's point is decent tho

yea we just played in one lol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

maybe he's like a scum loyal rb

~
nsg had at least one normal game at some point where she had compulsive loyal scum aceticizers so although that would be, like, wacky af it's not beyond the queue so like :shrug:

i don't think the claim is important enough to let him live just by virtue of it existing

the downside is a lot like worse if he's actually town tho cuz he can get guilties?

I should get on that re-read of Day ISO

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i find lucys switch from kill mena scum to skitter is wk pocketing mena town to be incredibly unlikely

I shouldn't BoP you right

You know how amazingly accurate I am when I'm town :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i remember you were giggling like a schoolgirl when you lol-hammered that poor townie in the game me/sirus were modding :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and afterwards you were all like woooooops lolol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

but like what are the odds the nonconsec disloyal rb actually gets guilties ...
like are we saying that that's important enuf that we keep alive him for?

it's about (1/11) tonight so roughly 9% ?

If he has like 5 accurate town reads its (1/6) or 16.6%

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

isn't it fairly common for a roleblocker to exist in a mini normal?

Seems so more recently...

themilkcartonkid, Town Odd-night Disloyal Roleblocker

Hmmm...oh i was in that game.

yea exactly so like for him to fake-claim that as scum, wouldn't he have to be like informed there are no town roleblockers? or else he just gets counterclaimed no?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ok so how likely do you think the scum are informed that there's no roleblockers in this setup?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think there's no reason not to let hectic get a chance to maybe get us a guilty or two

we can always BoP elim him on like D3/4 if he misses 2/3 times.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Team Pookuin is killing it

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

yea but if he's town the scum will be sweating it no?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I shouldn't even be doing all this mech spec

lemme actually do a deep dive on his ISO and come back with thoughts later.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I strongly oppose this elimination and think we should give him at least a chance to block the nightkill - we are likely to have at least a few nights for him to do this, eliminating him on day 3 and day 1 have no difference except giving him the chance to maybe get a guilty/block a kill.

yes I haven't read all of his ISO and I have no history of having caught hectic-scum in the past but I think this is a terrible elimination both strategically as well as in terms of overall likelihood he flips scum.

if he is town, his ability only gets stronger over time, putting pressure on the mafia to kill him and resolve the issue for us.

If there's a really strong case for why day flips red I would love to read it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I can't give a very good answer to that right now, I've been too tunneled on rebutting Fark and I'm currently re-reading Day's ISO.

I'd have to do another re-read.

I don't think I would want to push lucy before fark and alisae does have some dis-associatives with fark.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

every1 playing is difficult to eliminate except maybe Mena.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

underwhelming compared to who? he's solidly in the top half by contribution imo.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't think scum!day tries to convince me that Fark is town because if Fark/Me are T/T he would rather allow us to fight rather than expanding the town-block.

If day is scum with fark, I don't think he defends him from me, there's no reason to lay the risk since I have no traction on Fark and Fark is not in danger.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it felt really geniune because I think he really really really wants lucy to be town and enjoys playing with her.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that wasn't even the main reason he reconsidered on lucy for

it was for how she switched from wanting mena dead to thinking mena was being WK-pocketed by skitter.

he said it was jarring.

I really do not believe day is scum here.

I reiterate that the best way to deal with a claimed disloyal roleblocker is to give them the oppurtunity to stop a nightkill.

the order in which we eliminate does not really matter. elimming him on D1 and D3 makes no difference really except give him 2 extra nights to possibly save a kill if he was actually town here.

There is no slam dunk case on him being scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Since when did you start TR'ing Day?

I've thought more about his claim and I believe it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

for this to be a fake-claim

he would have to know:

1) Town does not have a roleblocker who can CC him

2) Town can't track him cuz how would he explain roleblocking a TPR who gets a roleblock notification?

3) There's no incentive for a scum roleblocker to claim disloyal - it's much cleaner to just claim regular roleblocker so if you roleblock a town role you don't get caught out.

4) The way he followed up his claim makes me think he really believes it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I am p good at fakeclaiming lol

i dont think this is it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like if on day 3 hectic hasn't blocked a single kill i can see why you'd want to throw him in a well and murder him

but like on day 1? really?

at least give the guy a chance?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and yea i know the odds are shit for a town roleblocker getting a block off in the first 2 nights.

its exactly

1 - (10/11)(8/9) = ~21%

if he has 2 accurate townreads it goes up to ~24%.

But the odds a town roleblocker gets any blocks off if we elim him right now is exactly 0% and thats worse in my estimation.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

PLS SAY YES

uh sure

is this going to be bad :<

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Pooky I feel like you're missing the point of a fakeclaim. Scum don't only fakeclaim when they know for absolute sure that their claim can never be disproved. They do it to buy time and gain information.

I agree with you that if Day is a scum roleblocker, they probably don't claim this. But I don't see why they couldn't claim it as a goon; roleblocker is a relatively rare town role, so it's not like the odds of being counterclaimed are huge.

you're good at mech dude

why do people put disloyal roleblockers in the game?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index ... #msg822383

i didnt make it thru the first sentence without laughing
:3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why do people put disloyal roleblockers in the game?

Well, for mostly the same reason they put town roleblockers in. It's a targeted kill-preventing role that gets stronger as more scum get killed. The difference between disloyal and regular is that disloyal is less likely to interfere with other town power but also less likely to be confirmable.

nah think about why the disloyal modifier would be there if this is a true-claim

then think about whether pushing him makes sense in that context

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Lol
And drunk isis is prob town isis tbh

-.-

she was literally drunk when she was scum with you the last time the three of us played together

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

what type of swing are you trying to remove from setup balance when you add disloyal into the roleblocker role?

have you read NRG? They don't add random modifiers for fun onto roles.

what does disloyal say about the rest of the TPRs in this game if this is a trueclaim and what are you doing when you push hectic if he is town here.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

multi ball does open itself up to some funny role claims :3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Town: Day, Norwee, Pooky
Probably town: Farkran, Lucy

The rest: Menalque, Ali, SS, Ydrasse, Chara, Skitter, Penguin

That’s roughly where I’m at

Still need to catch up on a few pages actually

We've come so far Luca!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

If I was scum with Hectic I would've just hammered Mena out of the game.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Is it not obvious by this point that because of my role I believe Day is very likely to be town?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Day townreads norwee, why wouldn't he ignore your push on Norwee?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Day has townread norwee from norwee's entry into this thread.

A thought I agree with because when I read that entry I thought it was a very townie mindset to enter with

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Is it not obvious by this point that because of my role I believe Day is very likely to be town?

Why would that be obvious to me?

You should probably elaborate then now you've said that

i am a TPR

my role has 2 modifiers on it.

thinking more about the disloyal modifier on his role, I'm fairly sure it was added to balance my role.

hence I believe he is definitely town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and it should be obvious to you because I asked SS what type of TPRs would be in this game that would make sense for Hectic's disloyal modifier to balance against.

It kind of hints that I have such a TPR.

I said this type of push on a disloyal role is bad.

because it makes me feel compelled to defend him.

this helps the scum rolefish.

thats why I've been telling you to

give him a chance to stop a kill

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you think scum pooky will come out to defend scum hectic and claim that we are both TPRs?

2/3 of the scum team just comes out and gives themselves over and claims TPRs?

what happens when the actual town TPRs start filling the graveyard and we get closer to lylo?

dont me/hectic have to die then?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

That's a delightful fantasy you've written

Truly a work of art.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Btw thinking someone is definitely town based on setup spec isn't smart

I almost made the same mistake in a recent mini Normal where there were 2 backup neighbours, one flipped scum and it seemed to make sense that the other would be Town, but they were actually both scum

sure NRG loves to troll with random nonsense.

But I can see them adding disloyal modifier to a roleblocker to balance out the interaction between my role and his.

And I don't see how scum!Hectic would know about my role and know to add disloyal to make me think he's town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

why not fark?

he's on the bottom half of your list anyway

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

if you r right the game is already over

you might as well help me flip fark

maybe him flipping red will jolt you out of your fever dream

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

theres two possible worlds

world a:

you are right. pooky/hectic/norwee are caught by your brilliance and awaiting summary execution. you might as well humor me by helping me elim fark

world b:

you are wrong. hectic/pooky/norwee are town. you should help me elim fark-scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

luca i have read a lot of norwee completed games


the dude is scummy af when he is town

that is just how he plays.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Well I've never scumread Norwee when he's been town, so I disagree

And your argument above is bad. If I am correct in my scumreads and I agree to elim Farkran, then I can get NK and scum can pull the game back

If I am wrong, then it doesn't mean Farkran must be scum and also the Norwee/Day thing remains unresolved

I have claimed to be TPR

Day has claimed to be TPR.

There is no way either of us will survive to the endgame or get close to MYLO.

If you are RIGHT

and we are both scum.

We will definitely get KILLED.

at which point you have day/pookyscum dead in the graveyard right?

and how long do you think norwee-scum lives in that scenario?

If you are 100% sure the scum team is Day/Pooky/Norwee - then the game is

already over

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I can't believe you think you have the entire scum team solved and still think you need to force an elimination today.

What do you think this Pooky/Hectic/Norwee scum team that you're 100% sure of is going to do if we elim Fark today?

Shoot you at night

and then everyone will forget

you had the most brilliant solve in the world!?!?!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Like what do you think even happens?

me/hectic/norwee.

we get fark town elimmed

then shoot luca at night.

and tommorrow we what

put up some top hats and fake mustaches.

and pretend like we are different people or some shit?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

yea i'm sure its a real brilliant play to claim a TPR to save your scumbuddy who is also claiming a TPR on Day 1 of a normal.

That's like totally how it should be done.

Not like town can't figure out you're lying when you don't die at night for three nights.

Not like town doesn't have like 5 miselims to miss.

Not like town won't see the graveyard filling up with dead TPRs and put 2+2 together and realize you're lying.

Nope I'm fake claiming to save my buddy in order to waste our time.

Yup Luca

that's definitely the likeliest scenario to be happening.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

lol

You seem desperate, Pooky

I'm in utter disbelief how someone who claims to be sensible can have such absurd thoughts in their head.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

If you're town here I don't get how these are words coming out of your mouth.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

You're doing a good job at convincing me you're scum

Do you really think I care at this point that you are more and more wrong?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

look luca

if you're 100% sure

BoP yourself on norwee ok?

he flips town, we elim you tommorrow

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

im tired of wasting time talking to you

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Because I'm really, really sure that Day/Norwee are scum together, and think you are a more likely partner to them than he is

Well I've never scumread Norwee when he's been town, so I disagree

^^^

Your words


Norwee flips town. I get to elim you tommorrow.

That's the only way I'm letting you elim him.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

what an amazing deal

you are willing to let me use my own vote

that I was was entitled to from the very beginning

wowowowowowowowowowowowowow

such a great offer luca!!!!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

talking to you just makes me upset

and unable to sleep

so I'm not going to talk to you for a while.

good night

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i have never played with fark b4

im ok with defering on the elim if you guys want someone else but im not gonna be ok with:

day skitter norwee or ss

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Question though: does your role specifically imply a disloyal roleblocker, or would it just make sense? Because if it's the latter, that doesn't rule out a lucky fakeclaim.

It would make a lot of sense for a town roleblocker to have a disloyal modifier.

Yea it could be a lucky fake-claim but when you evaluate probabilities I think its much more likely that Day's claim is true than he got lucky claiming that modifier.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

My belief in Day's claim doesn't come from "it makes no sense for scum" as much as it would be tremendously anti-town swing for him to roleblock my role so I can see why the setup balance team added "disloyal" to his role to reduce the swing and remove that worst case scenario for townside.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it’s done

v/la

<3 mena <3

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I wouldn't bother to set you up.

If I'm scum and Norwee is town I just let you kill the dude

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I kind of doubt the scum have a roleblocker cuz then my role is kinda shitty and it would introduce swing into the setup that probably doesn't get passed.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Is his role a sekrit

I mean it's kind of guessable by what I've said so far but who knows ~.~

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

It is quite unfortunate but my role is not awesome enough to provide you with the Legos you seek

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't see the point of claiming it.

I'll be dead soon either way and then you can look at my role and see why a roleblocker would probly have that disloyal modifier on it.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you're not going to die dude

im going to die

you can solve tommorrow after im dead

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

uh cuz the mafia dont know if they should shoot me?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

can any1 actually substantiate why they are hardtownreading Farkran?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

ok so why is Farkran obvtown to you?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I think scum Ali just hammers Mena town when E has the chance tho.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I've kind of been counting on skitter to catch Pengy if he's scum.

I don't really have a great read on him either way.

He isn't really pushing much for you to die, his vote is just there?

I can see what you're saying about it not making sense >.>

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

yea it's not a given but I think it fits within how Ali plays scum.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

because it completely ignores the context that the momentum was moving in the other direction

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the point of Lucy moving from Mena to Skitter isn't to kill skitter

its to get her vote off the Mena wagon.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I didn't like the way she jumped on the Mena wagon in the first place.

like Fark and her had this long convo between the two of them about which person should get killed between Mena/Skitter

it was when the wagons were at 3/3 Mena/Skitter: 1411

Lucy wanted Skitter, Fark wanted Mena.

Fark appeals for Lucy to come over and vote Mena, Lucy says no she doesn't trust Fark etc. You can go back and read their entire exchange.

Ali unvotes Mena,
Norwee Votes Mena,
Luca Votes Mena,

Mena pops in and flails a bit, votes norwee/luca

Lucy pops back in and says Mena's flailing is bad, voting for luca is bad etc
Day votes Mena (e-2) next post after Lucy
Lucy votes Mena(e-1) next post after Day.

Skitter pops in and asks why Mena is the leading wagon?
Skitter votes Lucy
Mena votes Lucy


Then Fark defends Lucy from SkitteR:

"She's been on menalque for a while now so i don't see anything bad in her consolidating on the wagon + i don't think earlier posts from her were scummy? Her vote on you is legit"

1730

Like she's legit the last person on the wagon and was actively against Mena until Mena was run up and started flailing, it's just not a realistic characterization of how Lucy voted for Mena.

1751 - Luca unvote, says he doesn't want the day to end yet. This effectively kills the momentum on the Mena quick-elim since Luca is more or less town leader at this point and him asking for time to re-eval means its unrealistic for people to continue to push Mena.

30 minutes later Lucy posts the infamous 1800 and votes for skitter.

Like sometimes you go for a quick elim kill, and it doesn't get there, and you just feel awkward and you don't want to leave your vote hanging there you know what I mean?

I don't like how she wants skitter over mena, then when its mena at e-2 she flips to mena, then when momentum is gone she flips back to skitter. I don't think this is real consideration of who is scum between Mena/Skitter.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I would actually think after their one night stand s/s game they would try not to bus each other this game lol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I can see Mena scum / Ali town

I can't really see Ali scum / Mena town

I'm leaning towards Ali/Mena being T/T

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like if I'm scum and I get a chance to hammer Mena!town, I take it like 95 out of 100 chances.

I think Ali!scum takes it maybe 99 out of 100 chances.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it's not the power spike,

it's hard for scum to get mis-elims in this PL

when you get one served up to you on a plate you just take it and ask questions later.

Some people as scum are scared to get their hands dirty

Ali is not one of them.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

However my strong townread of lucy doesn't come from the mena vote, rather from how she went against skitter before and after the mena phase. There's no reason for scum!lucy to go against skitter at that point, she could very well unvote and fade from the thread instead. Starting a new wagon against skit is the worst possible move for scum!her at that point in time, no matter how high the chances for the menalque wagon to die she would always look better if she stayed put. Skitter was already on the warpath because of her townread on menalque, why would you as scum attack a charismatic player that had very little chances to be flipped anyways - you either pocket her or leave her be - the only reason Lucy could do that is because she genuinely scumreads skitter. My strong point here is not how Lucy scumreaded or townreaded menalque but what she has been doing around that moment.

Strong town-reading someone for making suboptimal moves without clear scum motive is just WIFOM.

Like when I say I kind of townread Ali for passing on a Mena elim -

that only applies if Mena is actually town.

and Ali-scum had to give something up to get it, aka passing on an easy quick elim opportunity.

Like what you're saying is you townread Lucy for playing sup optimally if she were scum... but like she didn't lose anything from moving her vote from Mena to Skitter, where it used to be before she tried to quick-elim Mena at E1...

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like if I were to strong townread skitter.

and then suddenly vote her.

Would I get a strong townread from you? because the move makes no sense and I'm attacking someone who is charismatic?

I just don't think your strong townread here makes any sense given the circumstances. Also your scumread on me for voting Lucy makes no sense either.

Like why did you scumread me for voting for Lucy, someone who is townreading/buddying me ? That is actually against my wincon if I were actually scum since I'm literally attacking someone who has townbinned me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

skitter do you have a read on Penguin?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'm here:

won't vote out: Day, Skitter, SS, Norwee
can compromise on: Mena, Ydra, Ali, Pengy, Luca
ok to flip: Lucy, Chara
want to flip: Farkran

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

where are you at?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

can you vote fark then dude?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

mena i still think you're town fairly strongly but we're kinda close to needing a flip and you're the likeliest to happen tbh

this is dumb and u should do better

why are you saying she's dumb when you are throwing shade at fark and she's voting fark and you're not voting fark?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that didn't come out right

why are you saying her willing to compromise on you is dumb if you are not helping us elim fark? like who do you even want to elim herE?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Skitter being willing to vote me while ostensibly townreading me is gross in the same way that ali voting me is gross

But like prevailing game circumstances being equal I would still be more likely on ali!scum I guess

it's not gross

she is tired

we are all tired

this day dragged on forever

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

let's go find 4 more votes somewhere

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

that's a good point but it would also be like

hard throwing

and im not sure if im willing to hard throw to tilt ali

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

she's talking about hammering no elim to tilt ali

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

and this isn’t about what’s going on in my irl I just find it frustrating in game when you (generally speaking ‘you’) are willing to vote (1) a townread who is being pushed (2) by people you don’t townread/are less sure of because that’s ceding control to people you’re not sure on the alignment or motives of vs protecting someone who you actually believe does share goals with you

its still objectively better than no elim

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

So force them to compromise

Jesús this is not hard

You don’t start talking about compromising with 2 days on the clock because then guess what, you get the compromise they want

i've been talking to luca and his boys for the last 3 days and if i had to keep talking to luca i might get sitebanned at this rate

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

yea its really amazing how he can be blatantly scummy and nobody wants to vote him out lolol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

he writes so much nonsense that nobody bothers to read all of it

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

he writes so much nonsense that nobody bothers to read all of it

is this fark or luca?

fark


i think luca believes in the nonsense he spews into the thread which is +town because he will actually double and triple down on his nonsense.

when I call fark out on his nonsense he just moves on to the next piece of nonsense because he knows what he said is nonsense.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

cherry garcia is amazing

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i might kill mena just for this blasphemy

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Penguin do you have a good reason to townread Fark?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

SS do you have a good reason to townread farkran?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

no

can you vote him then? let's do it big

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

SS do you have a good reason to townread farkran?

I mean, I have a reason to townread him. I can't be sure that it's

good

.

sure gimme your best reason

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Hectic how many times has Fark played scum vs you? How many times have you townread him on D1 during those games?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Fark doesn't feel like he's playing in a way that would be beneficial to scum-him. He's drawing a lot of attention while not accomplishing much, which is pretty much exactly what I remember him doing as town. It probably would have gotten him killed in that game if he hadn't been a PR, and it seems plausible that he as scum would expect it to get him killed here as well.

so if this was day 3 and fark had killed mena town and then me town you would be ok with voting him then?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like if your sole reason for townreading Farkran is that

HE HASNT DONE ENOUGH DAMAGE TO THE TOWN YET

then like wtf do you want me to do?

just let him kill a few townies and then we come revisit the subject on day 3-4?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

've admittedly townread scum!Fark 2/2 times but only on day 1, I came round to scumreading him in both of those games on a later day

So uh, I guess my read on him on day 1 is bad

ok so you're townreading him now

lets break your streak of being wrong

vote the dude

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Probably, yeah, especially since he would have done both through my (and skitter's) objections.

can we skip the part where fark scum drives thru 2-3 town miselims and go straight to killing him?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Your argument was ‘you might as well vote Farkran because your SR’s can be eliminated later in the game’ and you expect me to just mindlessly follow that nonsense?

your response to me saying it would be suicidally bad play for me to claim TPR to save Day was

"i am 100% sure day/norwee are both scum and you are almost certainly the third scum"

it was so comically bad faith that I don't know how you expect me to talk to you in a serious manner

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

like if your sole reason for townreading Farkran is that HE HASNT DONE ENOUGH DAMAGE TO THE TOWN YET

That's... not what I said?

I said he's not accomplishing anything. He's all over the place. Like he posted a big all-caps call to arms on Alisae and switched off within five pages.

because he got no traction

if he had traction do you really think he would switch off!??!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

He doesn't even scumread you, what are you talking about

um he was pushing me b4 i claimed tpr to save day-dude

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Five pages is not enough time to determine this

ok which of us has more experience pushing miselims as a scum role?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so like dont you think I'd know how to read traction/game state momentum better ?

there's no point for him to leave his vote somewhere it's not useful

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it's clearly Hectic

[PookyTheMagicalBear]