Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Infinity 324]

ur not gonna vote urself infinity so stop acting like u will

Yes I will. If skitt votes me there is a greater chance I will survive by self voting and convincing her that I wouldn't do that as scum than otherwise.

[Infinity 324]

this is just not true
i expressed openness more than once to voting notsci

You're the only one I'm pretty sure

Skitt is town and wants to vote me, pretty sure prism is also town and wants to vote me, that's all that's needed

[Infinity 324]

I don't believe there's anything I can actually say that will convince skitt here, I could be wrong I guess

[Infinity 324]

and instead of trying to get her to do that

Literally tell me what the fuck I am supposed to do to accomplish this goal. My thoughts are all in the thread and I've already obvtowned as much as I possibly can.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, you should stop posting and go do something else for several hours.

Meh this is pretty cathartic atp

[Infinity 324]

I'm sorry

[Infinity 324]

I'm not going to self vote, I'll be around to answer questions but probably not post much otherwise, fwiw I still feel like DC is scum

[Infinity 324]

It might also help to try snd convince skitter or the rest of us to ignore skitter in that case

If this is to me I don't know how to do this

I don't know how to make a case either

[Infinity 324]

@DC In the you-town mom-scum world from cakez's PoV, I was the scum. I was exaggerating when I made that post, but the gist of it is that cakez should expect scum to have strong opinions about the elim only if one is scum and one is town. If either skitt or I is scum from cakez's PoV, then that heavily implies mom-scum/you town or vice versa.

[Infinity 324]

Prism I'm probably going to be in a similar mental state for the rest of the game, but I'll stop posting for a while.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry for making the game more unpleasant

[Infinity 324]

I can't see a viable third partner for DC/mom

okay but you also have posts like this which make it sound a lot like that that's not you just referring to how you think cakez should be seeing the game, but that it's also your perspective that only one of me/mom is scum

and then there's also your complete flipflop on skitt from skitt!town to skitt!scum for pushing mom and defending me from being limmed yesterday only to... completely jettison your (VFT, DC) theory from yesterday and to go so far as to say you'd vote yourself if that's what skitt wants

like that doesn't make any sense to me as a progression

The way I make sense of the game in the late game is a very team-focused perspective. The way I saw it, yesterday the most likely possibilities were:

1. 3 scum in {notsci, bork, you, VFT}, most likely you, bork, VFT
2. You/mom/x
3. Many other possibilities could go here and I wasn't sure which was most likely. I was hoping someone else would propose a different solve, but I couldn't see one. However, all these possibilities combined were probably more likely than #2.

For obvious reasons mom flipping scum made #1 impossible and #2 more likely. I still can't think of a third option that makes a lot of sense (still open to possibilities here). To me, skitt is basically confirmed town because strongarming a bus when mom was not getting limmed otherwise seems insane to me. It's more likely if you're also scum, yes, but it's still unlikely. I also thought your interactions with lilith early on were unlikely to be scum theater, which I considered yesterday but it wasn't enough to outweigh my other evidence. Now it is.

For the record my posting was not to push Infinity

Part of why I feel like she feels so overwhelmed regardless of alignment is noones done shit to try and kill anyone but her today and yeah we just opened but all anyone’s done re me is mild sus

A case would help

That's part of it, yes, but a bigger part is that you're the biggest other option and I don't actually believe you're scum atm. A convincing case on you could help, sure, but I don't believe you've played like scum this game even if you are. My heart just isn't in pushing you, and going against consensus to push someone else when I feel like I'm so likely to be wrong again is not really something I'm interested in doing right now. Another part of it is that I can't argue against people scumreading me for consistently pushing town over scum, and being pushed for that when I'm already so upset with myself over it is pretty unpleasant. Obviously that's kinda just part of the game but it's certainly not my favorite part.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: DC I don't really forsee myself voting elsewhere today unless I'm forced to.

[Infinity 324]

It would also beg the question why would skitter stick her neck out to save one scum partner by bussing the other

To be very clear, I don't believe this is what happened. I'm pretty sure skitter is town here. The question is mostly how skitter sorted mena wrong, and I don't have a good answer besides "skitter is human".

[Infinity 324]

I can quote some of skitt/mena's interactions, but it comes down to very little direct engagement compared to what I expect from them. This was definitely not the main reason I suspected they were partners (low activity from mena helps explain it) but it was a small contributing factor.

[Infinity 324]

I looked back at mena/skitt interactions briefly, and there's not much to quote because it's more what isn't there than what is there. The mena/skitt interactions in PyP were the type of stuff to make me townlock both of them and not look back.

[Infinity 324]

A lot of that is probably because they haven't been SRing each other, but I feel like from mena's side he hasn't put in as much effort trying to sort skitt as I'd expect.

This isn't even the towniest part of the interactions from PyP but I don't feel like finding the rest atm, lmk if you need more.

Spoiler:

You're vote was icky, as was you loldropping infinity to vote dgb

why

Because it looked like you dropped something you actually believed in to vote someone who was posting badly (but not necessarily scummily) at a time when the wagon on dgb was not set yet, and your vote was the tipping point so to speak for that wagon, and made it much more likely to go through

I really dont like the drop off of infinity

You're vote was icky, as was you loldropping infinity to vote dgb

why

Because it looked like you dropped something you actually believed in to vote someone who was posting badly (but not necessarily scummily) at a time when the wagon on dgb was not set yet, and your vote was the tipping point so to speak for that wagon, and made it much more likely to go through

I really dont like the drop off of infinity

but this makes very little sense for scum!me to do unless you think I was lolbussing infinity from the moment I entered and dropped off to save him

like why was it a priority for scum!me to see DGB go through > infinity

and if your answer is "because she's a strong town player" y-es, but she didn't really have any play in this lobby (so not much to fear for scum!me) and you know very well that I normally setup to endgame as scum rather than play sacrificial -- if I was desperate to get her gone, why wouldn't I get a team-mate to make the bad vote switch to see her through?

I think your focus on my DGB vote is v weird

Well i think your vote was weird (and bad, and scummy), so

I basically think town!you would have tried to make infinity more viable, while scum!you saw an easy lolvote on someone imploding and took it

I think your focus on my DGB vote is v weird

Well i think your vote was weird (and bad, and scummy), so

I basically think town!you would have tried to make infinity more viable, while scum!you saw an easy lolvote on someone imploding and took it

you've played with scum!me, and I'm really struggling to see you actually believing this and it's making me think you're scum

you know very well that if there's one characteristic of my game *in general* it's a good awareness of how I'm perceived in thread, and that I resist going for the easy LHF consistently because I know it will look bad later

if you were making the argument that I jumped off to WIFOM ("ahh, I'd never do this as scum my game is too good I wouldn't be so obvious!") then I'd at least think that this was a genuine approach

I really don't think that town!you thinks that I care enough about eliminating DGB > infinity to decide to look worse in thread to achieve that, unless, again, you think I was lolbussing infinity from the moment I entered the game

Also there’s one player here who’s like, intensely scummy and hasn’t been pressured at all lmao

I would prefer them to DGB but I can compromise with doing DGBif we can’t get the votes there in time

"I say notes

Here’s a readslist

skitt (obligatory TR)
S_S — strong town
PP, dave, hoopla — town
petapan, uncrowned — town lean/town with reservations
Pine — true neutral
DGB, dunn, TGP — nullscum
JV — scumlean
lil — scum
Infinity — obvscum

Update:

Dave looking a little worse for sheeping onto DGB, unless DGB is, in fact, scum

DGB looking fucking awful for the lilith push but skitt’s right that it could totally be bussing.

If both of DGB and lil are town then skitter is probably scum with infinity

S_S could be scum with lilith maybe

Uncrowned is notably townier than I had him before

Hoopla still town and idk if I get the wagon there

JV maybe is town actually? Idk. I probably shouldn’t be reading alignment too hard from this, but his apology to uncrowned specifically for not playing harder seems less likely to come from scum while not under pressure

Mostly I just want a flip, DGB or infinity would both be fine

JV is actually surprisingly high posting for saying he’s disengaged, idk if that says anything AI but it pings me as interesting to say the least"

Hmmm you are actually being consistent in a way that's kinda unlikely to come from scum imo

I really don't think that town!you thinks that I care enough about eliminating DGB > infinity to decide to look worse in thread to achieve that, unless, again, you think I was lolbussing infinity from the moment I entered the game

Honestly, i dont think that scum!you cares so much about dgb in particular so much as you saw the oppurtunitu for an easy vote

However, somewhere uppage you said something like 'i've been thinking about voting out dgb all along', which i just verified. You do have a consistent thought process on dgb. And you calling back to that in the moment rn is +town, as it indicates this thought is something you've truly been believing for a while, and it's something that you immediately thought of to help your case (i.e. vs scum who was paying lip service to it, and would have had ro have scoped dgb as a likely person to be voted out upon repping into the game to consistently show that process from.the beginning and end up where you did yesterday)

So i'm gonna mull this over and UNVOTE:

I see ur vote on me but i gotta get ready for work, so to be continuee

Aside mena do u try to kill town!me last night, was pondering that and it's kinda relevant to my read

I haven't really thought about it

probably not? not for gameplay reasons but just because I joined to play with you so I think I'd take my chances on leaving you alive and trying to fool you

[Infinity 324]

This is not meant to convince anyone that DC is scum here, it's mostly just to show my thought process.

[Infinity 324]

T -> S

Prism, VFT, cakez, notsci, (big gap) DC

I'm very aware of the irony of trying to argue that I'm right and skitter is wrong after d3, but if I wasn't doing that I'm not sure if I could make a post that would qualify as scumhunting. I shouldn't give up just because I was wrong a few times, and I'm sorry I tried to do so.

[Infinity 324]

Someone tell me a possible scum motivation for notsci trying to pocket me here, I don't see it.

[Infinity 324]

Fmpov it looks tough for notsci to convince me to vote ex. cakez here, but maybe that's because I'm not aware enough of how I come off.

Top 3 of my T -> S list are very interchangeable. Specifically, those 3 are in order of most to least likely to surprise me as scum, so maybe scum!prism played d3 in a way that I really didn't expect because I just don't know his scumgame well enough. Really doubt that though.

[Infinity 324]

(1) okay, why? this solve just seems so collectively off and doesn't really fit with the gamestate yesterday at all. not to mention, from what I can see you spent far more time trying to undercut skitter than trying to focus on bork, and I think the simplest explanation for that is that bork was amenable to voting me and skitt very clearly wasn't going to. I think you wanted to win yesterday, and the simplest way to do that was to try to undermine my key supporter and disregard... basically anything else

I'm not really sure what to tell you, it seemed like it made a lot of sense to me at the time. The biggest thing I look for in teams in the late game is who is playing aligned, and for a long time you bork and VFT just did not want to vote each other. It especially made sense to me because if bork was scum he really didn't want to have to NK someone and make people paranoid. Speaking of, the reason why I didn't out my bork scumread until I thought the game was lost is because 1. People would've though I was insane and I would've lost credibility 2. More importantly, if I was wrong about bork they could've left him alive to fuel my paranoia.

[Infinity 324]

(2) which leads me into this -- I've cited two posts of yours above from yesterday where you said that you didn't think mom/me were teamed together because of the way the day unfolded. if this was a genuine thought process, I don't think you come in today and after briefly AtEing and voting notsci, switching back to me bc you think I'm the easiest miselim. basically the only person who really TRs me is skitt and bork kinda did. so from scum!you perspective pushing me makes a lot of sense, but from town!you perspective you'd have to be totally disregarding your process from yesterday which doesn't follow because

(3) there's no real reason you provide why if yesterday "all these possibilities were more likely than #2" things are now different. again, I think if you're town you try to reevaluate given that you'd have been consistently wrong throughout the game. instead, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too by going "oh man my reads have been really bad whoopsie... but btw it *is* still mena, and oh, don't worry about the fact that I was trying to push him yesterday vs the confscum flip we have on mom". it's like you're not actually trying to generate any possibilities for your supposed scenario #3, you're just trying to bend things back around to me being scum

The reality is that I think a lot of the game doesn't make sense, and until I find a solve without that feels at all reasonable, I think you just have to be scum here. You kind of ignore a pretty obvious reason why a you/mom scumteam becomes more likely with mom's scumflip, and that's because...mom flipped scum. You being town and mom being scum seems even more unlikely to me, because I really think scum could've gotten you limmed yesterday.

I understand why you're frustrated I seem to not be re-evaluating the other players on the list, but I now have 3 rock-solid townreads and even if one of them is wrong notsci is much townier than you here. I've talked about these reads before, but basically I don't think prism's day 3 play makes any sense from scum, I don't think skitt bussing mom makes any sense, and cakez has felt very town emotionally and he would have to have bussed quite a bit this game to be scum, something that he's supposed to be allergic to now.

[Infinity 324]

(4) this also just... doesn't really follow? how has the likelihood of my doing scum theatre different today vs yesterday?

I didn't say this, I said that it wasn't enough to outweigh my other evidence yesterday and it is today. The other arguments for a you/VFT team got much much weaker with mom's scumflip.

[Infinity 324]

(5) this feels like you're trying to walk back on notsci bc you don't think he's the most likely slot you can wagon today, and because you think he's less of a threat at this point than I am. when notsci entered he was saying "it's me or infinity" and you were perfectly happy to go after him. now he's shown like any doubt you're trying to bring him on board with you and switching your target back to me, despite this not being consistent with your supposed earlier thought processes

(6) but you just said earlier that you think one of your biggest mistakes this game was NOT going against consensus earlier in the game. why is this different now? you were making an issue of how going with consensus has led to us to here and that you wish you hadn't, only now you're switching back to "well, guess I'd better go with consensus bc I don't wanna be wrong again"

Mena I started showing doubt on notsci when he started making towny posts, I'm pretty sure he didn't show doubt at all up until that point. I also think notsci is the most likely player to get limmed besides me today

I'm not quite sure why I said 6, because I don't really scumread anyone outside the consensus anyway, but if I did it's true I would certainly have difficulty pushing them. Yes it would absolutely be correct, but there's only so many times you can push against consensus and be wrong before it wears you down.

[Infinity 324]

only there's a very large difference here which is that skitt is in a hydra, something you've been totally neglecting as part of this. I don't *need* to sort skitter head if she's paired with someone else who I have a very good read rate on, and lili is someone who after reading her wrong in our first couple of games, I'm p sure I've read correctly in every game we've had since.

I didn't think about this, this makes sense

[Infinity 324]

and this is exactly the crux of my issue with you -- it's that we *have* to be scum for you, and I think that's something you need a lot more than scum than as town.

This is only partly true, I said in UGC that it's a bit +scum for me to have too many TRs but it also happens to me most games as town.

[Infinity 324]

I can find quotes for why I TR people later in the day. I'm weighting the cakez not bussing thing very heavily, I don't really see a reason for cakez to be like "I'm changing how I play scum" but then just go back on it this game for no real reason

[Infinity 324]

and you haven't pushed outside of consensus all game! yet the game has gone completely off the rails and you said you considered that following of consensus a mistake only to hit today and to... go after the probably most consensus-y scumread that's not you (and maybe not notsci but I think notsci has more people who are ambivalent on him than are on our slot)?

Well yesterday my solve was very outside consensus. I guess what I'm trying to say is that me being wrong emotionally makes me really want to just trust others' reads. Mom flipping scum does make going inside consensus a bit more reasonable too, because it means scum aren't in control of the game most likely.

[Infinity 324]

okay fine, I'll wait and see on the quotes

where did cakez say that he's not bussing anymore?

and cakez had a prior meta of bussing heavily?

Yeah cakez had a meta of bussing a lot and pooky said somewhere that he's now allergic to bussing, I made a mental note of it. Will try to find it.

Obviously I don't think my townreads are for flimsy reasons, yesterday I went through my reasons for TRing prism. I'm weighting my salsa read a decent amount here, which makes me more comfortable having a strong TR on a strong scum player.

[Infinity 324]

I said that it wasn't enough to outweigh my other evidence yesterday and it is today

fine, why

if you think it's not theatre today, why didn't you think that yesterday

idgi

I'm not sure how many ways I can say the same thing until you understand. D3 I thought you and skitt were scum together for other reasons (skitt pushing mom was a big one) which to me outweighed the unlikeliness of you/lilith being scum theater. Now that those reasons are gone, you/lilith interactions get weighted more heavily and for that reason and others I don't think you're scum with VFT.

[Infinity 324]

and I also don't get the "scum not in control of the game" thing. like there's something to be said for that with mom flipping but I don't think we see the first two days be town flips without scum having pretty decent control of the game? or like what's your alternative explanation for how we're still a day away from even having a shot at winning if scum haven't had decent control over the game so far

Bork and me both being very loud and very wrong helped scum out a lot. Scum may have had some influence d3, but if they had control this game would me over.

Maybe I should be weighting skitt's read on you more, I didn't realize how consistent she was. For now I'm just putting my thoughts out there, no one has to listen to me but honestly trying to find a solve without you in it would drive me insane atp.

[Infinity 324]

Obviously I don't think my townreads are for flimsy reasons, yesterday I went through my reasons for TRing prism. I'm weighting my salsa read a decent amount here, which makes me more comfortable having a strong TR on a strong scum player.

feel like ur kind of sidestepping notsci here but w/e. okay, I'll go back through your posts yesterday again on prism!slot but like... idk, I don't think salsa was towny at all, and even if u think she was I'm confused by how you think it was to such an extent that prism just gets a pass

I'm sidestepping notsci because even if notsci is scum, unless one of my other 3 TRs is scum you still have to be scum here.

I don't think prism's day 3 play makes any sense from scum

like again to stress this, but from what I've read of prism's D3 it just doesn't make a lot of sense overall not specifically doesn't make sense from scum

and someone (I wanna say maybe unwnd or Shirou) made a point to me a lil while back that I've kinda taken to heart that if someone's play just makes no sense as either alignment and you really don't get it, that makes them scummier not townier

Yeah I disagree from a theory perspective, people are weird and just do weird things sometimes, whereas even if scum aren't specifically trying to avoid weirdness they often will because their play is crafted. I think prism's play d3 makes some amount of sense from town who is frustrated with how the game played out, and of course that doesn't explain everything but the scum perspective seems so unlikely that it's good enough for me.

[Infinity 324]

me both being very loud and very wrong

I don't think you were particularly loud since like... D1? so I kinda think you're assigning yourself an outsize weighting here

That's possible, point still stands. I at least was trying to be loud on d2 but maybe people weren't really listening to me at that point.

[Infinity 324]

If you're town mena I don't really blame you for being wrong on me here. I do sort of wish you'd take into account our previous experiences a bit more (specifically, my play tends to be a lot more all over the place as town and you often have issues with that), but /shrug

[Infinity 324]

A big part of it is that I don't think scum would be frustrated in his position. Like, he's about to win. It could've been fake, yes, but I just don't see a reason for it. Just push town, say some things about "oh this sucks town's losing" or w/e, and be done with it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it makes some sense from frustrated town because frustrated town can look like a lot of different things (I believe prism would be especially idiosyncratic with his frustration but I'm not sure). "This makes some (small) level of sense from town" is my baseline for pretty much everything because I've seen wildly unexpected things from town and much less so from scum. So I'd like to see those links yeah. The one exception is when scum is about to get limmed, they do weird things because that's their only shot, but when scum is about to win that's when I expect them to be the most predictable.

[Infinity 324]

I could also flip this back on you, which is that I think you've more often been wrong on me when you've thought I was scum and I've been town and I think when I've been scum against you (not sure if it was just that one game or if there are more) you've normally thought I was scum, but the fact you also don't seem to have considered that feels ehhh to me

I know you hate this, but that's cause the read is PoE. I've tried specifically to avoid having to read you lol, and tried to focus on ydrasse (I think she'd be posting here as town!) Ultimately, I wish I knew which of my townreads I should be focusing on re-evaluating but on the surface given all the ways I know how to scumhunt I don't see 2 of {prism, cakez, VFT, notsci} being scum.

[Infinity 324]

Skitt I simultaneously don't blame you for thinking I'm scum and am surprised that you don't realize I'm out of my scumrange

i don't think you're out of your scumrange, i had a whole thing abt it yesterday

Missed this post, this was before I had another burst of energy and I don't think I'd have been able to fake believing the you/DC/bork solve as scum

[Infinity 324]

Part of what's holding me back from listening to skitt is that I don't think she has a solve without me in it?

[Infinity 324]

Someone tell me a possible scum motivation for notsci trying to pocket me here, I don't see it.

Fmpov it looks tough for notsci to convince me to vote ex. cakez here, but maybe that's because I'm not aware enough of how I come off.

This is my strongest concrete reason to TR notsci.

[Infinity 324]

and you're just so fucking good you've got that strong insight that you just know we're scum right

that's why you're such a strong player who never gets misyeeted and is always getting N1'd and why I constantly get misyeeted and scum never fearkill me or marginalise me

This is over the line

[Infinity 324]

but you know what even if it is harsh where's the lie

Attack the play not the player

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: towny notsci stuff

Scum are going all out to get 2-0 and put us on the back foot for the rest of the game, there’s at least 1, probably 2 scum already on me here, if I were scum I would 100% have been the sacrifice

Name names.

Disaster, infinity and cakez

I doubt this list is all town

Scum are going all out to get 2-0 and put us on the back foot for the rest of the game, there’s at least 1, probably 2 scum already on me here, if I were scum I would 100% have been the sacrifice

Name names.

Disaster, infinity and cakez

Is Leafeon and Glaceon PETA? There’s too many replacements to keep track of

NOTMAF HAS HIGH SCUM EQUITY WITH REPLACEMENTS

I THIUGHT THIS BUT DIDNT POST IT AND WISH I HAD

My dankest spiciest take is all the replacements are scum and that is what prompted not mafias post

I’m too chickenshit to push it though

I’ll be totally honest I have no clue.

Associatives and vca point to infinity. I know I’m stuck here until the end of the game so I’m trying my best to find the last one.

For the record my posting was not to push Infinity

Part of why I feel like she feels so overwhelmed regardless of alignment is noones done shit to try and kill anyone but her today and yeah we just opened but all anyone’s done re me is mild sus

A case would help

This is the stuff I thought was towny from notsci but it's probably not strong enough

[Infinity 324]

Anyone that knows me and thinks I'm scum here needs to admit that I have to have had a sudden massive improvement in my ability to argue about things I don't believe to be scum here. I really just cannot confidently argue positions I know are wrong.

[Infinity 324]

I'm curious about how unwnd has to do with anything but you don't have to answer

[Infinity 324]

Part of what I was thinking about last night is how I really don't see prism as scum here, idk if you agree but I don't see him doing loopedy loops trying to avoid getting limmed here as scum when he could've just drawn less attention to himself by letting NM hammer. And the fact that prism is so ~messy~ here is like, why is he putting so much effort into getting into a mental headspace as scum if people are going to not understand it and write it off anyway? Idk

[Infinity 324]

Hi!

[Infinity 324]

EVERYONE IS SAYING CAKEZ YOURE DUMB THIS MEANS IM OBVIOUSLY TOWN HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE IT???
NOT EVERYONE CAN BE TOWN

Yeah I feel this

[Infinity 324]

Hi!

I've never played this setup but it seems like E-2 is the new E-1 here -- opportunities for scum to quickhammer and sac that person at night giving no chance at an elim on that member means that we should tread lightly in that regard.

Notsci bork was getting paranoid of you last I checked

[Infinity 324]

He was also concerned about your switch off of NM, but fair enough.

[Infinity 324]

Here's scum!me in a recently completed game where I just had to believably vote ydrasse in order to win. Andres was leaning towards voting ydrasse but he insisted I vote first. Eventually he just voted her with a few hours left in the deadline. Compare that to my d3 here

Spoiler:

I'm still undecided, I feel like this game has been well within pooky and ydrasse's capabilities, but I feel like pooky is playing a bit more like scum than ydrasse?

Who do you think makes most sense as a flea partner? That's kinda what I'm trying to work out.

Honestly I don't trust myself to read either ydrasse or pooky on play, so I wanna go with associatives. I wanna check your work and talk to ydrasse

Ok maybe I should just put the most trust in the associatives but I at least wanna feel like I did my due diligence in trying to sort ydrasse.

VOTE: ydrasse yeah I just don't see a flea/pooky team.

Sorry if I'm an idiot

UNVOTE: you're right I should actually think more I just don't fucking know

It's just like, you/flea actually makes sense in some world? Like yes I think pooky is scummier in a vacuum but

[Infinity 324]

I don't bus anymore Alisae

he's actually allergic to bussing now lol

Here's where pooky talked about cakez refusing to bus, I should've made sure it wasn't during an ongoing game at the time.

[Infinity 324]

In that game I knew the correct position to take but I couldn't bring myself to take it.

In this game I took a position and stuck to it and yelled at people to try to get them to listen to me.

[Infinity 324]

Not really anymore, but sure

[Infinity 324]

Sigh

Can it ever be DC/tweet?

[Infinity 324]

It doesn't seem like anything has changed.

I mean, this time I'm actually presenting analysis and thoughts about the game in real time

That's not the point though, the point was that my play in the isis game pretty clearly demonstrates that I'm incapable of my d3 play here as scum imo and if you don't see that then whatever

[Infinity 324]

Yeah the vote myself stuff seems so faked
Like i could maybe buy it if it's weren't LyLo and a town elim means a loss???

I was not in a good mental state and the time and I felt like I was going to get limmed almost no matter what

[Infinity 324]

I feel like I'm probably going to get limmed but I should at least play the game and at least I can practice keeping my head up

[Infinity 324]

Probably =/= definitely

[Infinity 324]

I didn't suddenly become immune to having emotions influence my view of the gamestate I guess

[Infinity 324]

Lol that would require some absurd scum theater

[Infinity 324]

I'm a bit surprised you're already scumreading me

[Infinity 324]

Good news, I do end up having some, uh, prominent scumreads this game :)

[Infinity 324]

I'm pretty sure VFT is town because skitt singlehandedly strongarmed the elim on mom yesterday. Since DC was likely the other option, there is some world where she's still scum with DC, but that seems very very unlikely to me still.

[Infinity 324]

My personal scumpool is DC, notsci, you atp (even though in a vacuum, I townread both your slot and notsci). I think you should at least put some effort into trying to sort notsci because he's one of the elims on the table today.

[Infinity 324]

Ftr, ydrasse's last scum game that I played with her she was incredible and didn't play at all like this. Ydrasse has a big townrange and scumrange but the way she's played this game falls much more into the scum category.

[Infinity 324]

Tweet doesn't feel like she's playing with an agenda

[Infinity 324]

It's mostly unlikely because there was a time when cakez and your slot were viable lim options earlier in the day and skitt wasn't pushing them. I also just...don't get why skitt would bus mom with so much passion. If she had to to win the game, maybe, but scum were comfortably in the lead. There were also some lilith/mena interactions that didn't look like scum theater to me.

I think notsci/DC is the most likely team here, I'm not happy about it but that's where I'm at I guess.

[Infinity 324]

I'm having a tough time integrating others' strong reads with my own, if I trusted bork's and skitt's reads on notsci and DC respectively it would leave me very lost so I'm just deciding to express what I think about the game as it looks to me

[Infinity 324]

Especially because bork's and skitt's solve both have me in them, so there's not a way to productively sheep them for me.

[Infinity 324]

Me too, and since I fairly often have those townreads it frustrates me when others don't listen to them. But at this point (with skitt vouching for DC as well) I mostly just have to do so in order to play the game.

[Infinity 324]

Tweet what are the best reasons to TR a townie late game as scum?

[Infinity 324]

3735 was a much longer answer than I was expecting. Hmm

[Infinity 324]

I wanted to see if you would imply you knew something about the current gamestate somehow, I'm not really sure why I thought my question would accomplish that though.

[Infinity 324]

You're bothered by the pushback the bulge wagon got? What pushback

DC cakez and I think prism were all insisting on voting NM over bulge for reasons that didn't seem logical to me.

[Infinity 324]

Yes if you're scum you're having the game of your life

[Infinity 324]

why would she do that as scum? like there's pretty much zero need to do that as scum and it actively makes the game harder not easier for exactly the reason that it can be used as a way to discredit my consistent push on NM

Why didn't you bring this up, like, a long time ago when I first pushed you on it? Lol

I think you wanted to get NM the hell out of the game so he couldn't be limmed

[Infinity 324]

Tweet, at this point in your catchup, what would it take for you to vote me today

[Infinity 324]

Probably Cakes and at least one of notsci/venus disagreeing with me, like it's possible but it just seems a lot less likely to me. I would be surprised but not extremely so

Or perhaps reading Disaster doing something D4 which resets me back to nowhere :I Which I am under the impression Disaster does something that makes ppl want to consider you over them, havent seen it yet, but yeah i am a tad worried abt that

pedit to infinity

Wow can tweet be scum and DC be town? This really feels like she's trying to make it seem like we aren't partners

[Infinity 324]

Tweet/notsci
DC/VFT
DC/notsci
Tweet/cakez

It's one of those, roughly in order

[Infinity 324]

It seems like im trying to not be scum with you?

Yeah why are you suddenly less confident in me being town (at least in the way you expressed it) after mena says you and I can be scum together?

[Infinity 324]

The reason I said DC only makes sense with skitter is skitter losing cred after a DC scum flip could turn the tides but after the Mara flip we’re all still clueless

Hm

I still think skitt would try to go for the win right away right? Like why doesn't she push cakez/prism

I just remembered I've seen tweet play town before, she's playing to her scum meta I think

[Infinity 324]

Also why do i care about not being scum with you exactly would that not be a win for me?

If you think there's a chance of you being limmed today.

[Infinity 324]

Also what scum game am i playing similar to exactly if I may ask

SS3

You wouldn't want to seem paired with me cause it makes it more likely for people who think I'm scum to compromise on you.

Maybe it's just that you're setting up to vote me, there's so little conviction in 3779 especially compared to what I expect from you based on pooky vs FL and one night stand

[Infinity 324]

In terms of meta it's mostly a tone thing where in pooky vs FL you were very thoughtful and musing and not trying to seem town whereas in one night stand you went all out and felt passionate wrt scumhunting

In ss3 you were like, towny, but ok

I think you had more conviction in team mafia though so there's that

[Infinity 324]

Like I'd say it's a constant of my play that I dont trust myself over other ppl so that's a neutral point

iirc this was not true at all in pooky v FL or one night stand?

[Infinity 324]

Idk it's like

In ss3 I was scumreading you for a very similar reason and it's not just because you wanted to trust other people, the way in which you did it didn't feel genuine to me. You weren't really integrating others' reads with your own in a natural way.

I can wait to continue the engagement though

[Infinity 324]

Ok, I don't think I know enough about you to come to a confident conclusion here, my gut says you're scummy

[Infinity 324]

I don't want to vote you yet and honestly I still have a hard time seeing DC as town over notsci/cakez/VFT but

[Infinity 324]

Yeah especially from mena's side the interactions don't look like S/S but you two are by far the scummiest players in the game imo

I feel like you're also very worried about me pushing you whereas I don't remember town!you caring so much about what others thought of you but again I don't really know you well enough

[Infinity 324]

I don't see why DC/Venus isn't the team if the Iverson/Cakez pushes were too risky -- I'd throw out Mom in that scenario as well as you can see it's still a W

But I feel like DC is still a lim candidate in that case, and if DC gets limmed today it's a disaster for a skitt/DC team. Not only does skitt have to try to explain how she was wrong, she also has to explain why she wasn't NKed. She also didn't know that I was going to make a fool of myself until after she started pushing mom, and in fact I was gaining motivation back at the time so I could've been pretty difficult to elim.

I've convinced myself that team doesn't make sense

[Infinity 324]

Oh, basically I'd expect skitt to be the NK tonight, which is wine now that I mention it, but whatever. Bork was the obvious first kill, but scum!skitt doesn't want to have to make another kill and have town wonder whether she's scum as a result. That plus skitt having hard defended a flipped scum means there's some chance she gets limmed, whereas with many other strategies it seems like there's almost no chance of that.

I do think a lot of the townies here are pretty hard to push, but maybe that means you want to bus instead? I'm not sure. I feel like it was scum's best play to try to go for the win yesterday, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Infinity 324]

I mean no one is suspecting VFT at all here besides you and skitt could've predicted that because...she strongarmed a scum elim. But then scum!skitt would have to throw away all the credit she got from the bus due to NK WIFOM. Idk

[Infinity 324]

For VFT to be scum here she would have to have incredible execution on a strategy that seems pretty awful to me.

[Infinity 324]

I'm not sure mom would've gotten limmed today if DC got limmed yesterday. Idk. There was still very little paranoia on skitt on d3 and I think she could've gotten a townie limmed, or at least tried.

I think you/DC, DC/notsci and maybe others are more likely than DC/VFT at this point

PEdit: townpost lol

[Infinity 324]

Because it's a free point for town basically when NM is still alive? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue

[Infinity 324]

it is objectively better for scum!us to be in a situation where town has 2 points and scum has 2 points but we're much harder to push than to be in a situation where scum have 2 points and town has 1 and we're clearly pushable, which is what's happened today

In the second scenario, worst case you get limmed and then end up in the first scenario.

[Infinity 324]

it is objectively better for scum!us to be in a situation where town has 2 points and scum has 2 points but we're much harder to push than to be in a situation where scum have 2 points and town has 1 and we're clearly pushable, which is what's happened today

In the second scenario, worst case you get limmed and then end up in the first scenario.

lol

ur really trying to say that u think that we were getting limmed immediately after NM instead of bulge after having pushed him since D1

come on infinity, try at least

This has nothing to do with how likely you are to get limmed, town having fewer points is objectively better for scum no matter how pushable a given scum slot is or is not

[Infinity 324]

As scum would you rather be in this scenario (your second scenario) or already be limmed (your first scenario)?

[Infinity 324]

In the first scenario it's you alive instead of your partner, but otherwise it's the same.

[Infinity 324]

Unless your partner also becomes easier to lim (which would be a hilarious TMI if that's what you're implying) then it's objectively better for town to have the extra point

[Infinity 324]

SCENARIO 1: we bus NM. the next day, we lim bulge. mom leaves. we're in mylo with two town gone and 3 scum gone. we look p good for having bussed NM all the way through and the day probably goes smoothly.

SCENARIO 2: we kill bulge. NM leaves. mom is limmed. we're in mylo with two town gone and 3 scum gone. the game is a horrible fucking shitfest because our correct push on NM is undermined by having jumped off him to vote bulge despite there being exactly no need to.

let me be very clear: unless you think that we couldn't lim bulge the next day in scenario (1) the two worlds are functionally no different in terms of who is alive. the basically ONLY difference is how we're perceived. so do you disagree that bulge would have been very limmable the next day, or do you not? and if you don't, why did ydra vote bulge? just to make this fun game a little bit extra challenging because it was too easy

This incorrectly assumes that the mom lim was a foregone conclusion from scum's PoV at the time. Bork was TRing her and others were trusting his reasoning.

[Infinity 324]

I think infinity acting like she doesn't get that 2 points vs 2 points but with much less sus on a scumslot is far worse than 2 points vs 1 point with more sus on a scumslot

Again in the second case, the scumslot will literally get limmed and you will end up in the first case? Can someone else help mediate this to me it seems like mena is just wrong here

[Infinity 324]

This incorrectly assumes that the mom lim was a foregone conclusion from scum's PoV at the time. Bork was TRing her and others were trusting his reasoning.

Though, I think this incorrect assumption is a townslip because it shows mena wasn't thinking from scum's PoV at the time.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

Oh, my argument was that it's a good move because then you get to safehouse NM instead of mom which is quite beneficial for scum.

I want to drag this out because I really haven't made up my mind, wanna see what skitt thinks

[Infinity 324]

I mean an additional scum had to go, right? Like inevitably another scum was leaving

Given how fucking brutal this game is and that mom was relatively consensus, I don’t think that’s a wrong assumption to make

Yes but what I'm saying is that scum would much rather safehouse NM than mom because NM will always get limmed later but mom will not necessarily.

[Infinity 324]

They were always both gonna die infinity holy shit

I just don't agree, again, mom was towny enough that I really don't think scum could've predicted that she was guaranteed to be limmed

[Infinity 324]

I also don't get it, it's the most demoralizing thing -- why is Infinity backing down now? I don't understand what she's seeing with regards to you townslipping or what team she's even considering now

Idek, you/notsci I guess?

I thought that DC saying mom was inevitably gonna get limmed meant they were town because that doesn't seem like something you'd say if you were in scum's position on d2. But now that mena's doubling down maybe he believes it anyway?

Still sorta just tempted to trust skitt and vote her second scumread or whatever, if she's scum she played incredible (despite some odd strategic plays imo)

[Infinity 324]

I feel like Disaster agreeing that Mom was always gonna die just shows why you kill Mom over Disaster there >w> assuming that is indeed what everyone agrees, it was certainly the impression i got by far

He's trying to argue that voting bulge was a bad play as scum because both him and mom/NM (whichever didn't get safehouse) were going to get limmed and the only thing it changes was the order

I still think mom was never guaranteed to get limmed

[Infinity 324]

Maybe my recollection was off. From what I remember bork TRed mom and everyone else was kinda like "yeah that makes sense". I know I did that. I think it's open enough to interpretation that it's probably not a townslip though.

[Infinity 324]

infinity can you walk me through exactly why you were willing to cede your vote to me a couple of days ago, ieven if it meant voting yourself

I was very upset about my play and the gamestate and I felt like people weren't going to change their mind. Especially because i felt like my mindset was going to affect my ability to obvtown

I'm still very not confident in my reads and am tempted to vote who you think is scum if I'm town

[Infinity 324]

I wanted you to reconsider in a "would she do this as scum" sense

It wasn't the best plan I admit

I probably wouldn't have efforted this much as scum yes

[Infinity 324]

Right now I guess I'm leaning towards voting her

[Infinity 324]

I'm pretty confident it's either tweet/notsci or DC/VFT here

One thing that's holding me back from voting tweet is ydrasse, she was posting quite a bit in other games (as both alignments tbf) that have finished since

[Infinity 324]

i mean idk what games those were but if she was posting quite a bit as both alignments in other games i think her lack of posting here is isnt' super ai
either way i think that mena is easier to read of the two and he's town so

~ skitter

Well the scumgame was one of her best that I've seen and I think she might have been posting more because that game was going well

Was mena scum in the mini normal? I feel like I have a pretty good baseline for town!mena but I don't know his scumgame very well

Still think panic room is a bad baseline to use because there wasn't a reason to give it his all

[Infinity 324]

Why did scum!prism hammer bulge?

[Infinity 324]

Tweet feels so genuine here

[Infinity 324]

What was a notsci/prism team doing on d3

[Infinity 324]

I don't fucking know

Cakez if it had to be DC/VFT or tweet/notsci what do you think

[Infinity 324]

Ok but why do you care about my read on you, if you think tweet is scum you should want me to SR you

[Infinity 324]

Mara you don’t get to play the “I just joined the game” when the games been open 6 days and you’ve been here for 2. Yeah, I am tunneled on nacho. It’s pretty obvious but I’m not actively pushing it as I’m trying to reevaluate. And quite frankly, I don’t need your reads for me to do shit. My reads have been just fine lately, and I have multiple people here that can vouch for that.

I’ve literally had to poke abd prod to get anything out of you and all I got is some stupid “no you” shit like my stances aren’t obvious throughout my iso.

My theory behind the nacho thing was he would be expecting to get shut down and then the main people he pushed could pull the “hurrdurr flipped scum was pushing me” card.

@cakez- I was more so speaking to the negativity expressed there compared to here. Not really a marker for how I expect you to play as scum (particularly because I also mentioned literally every other game we’ve been in together too lmao)

I’ll try to be around tonight.

Ninja-
What gives you that idea? How she goes no u whenever someone pressures her?

At that moment I was in the game for just over 24 hours, if even that and you were asking me for my reads, what I thought of the game and to steer you in direction. I wouldn't, hold your hand bot when I was literally calling out for handouts In that point in time so i could see where everyones heads where and while I was laying low so I could figure out why the activity stopped when it did?

This is good for notsci

[Infinity 324]

Skitt what was it recently that made you go from "I have a strong TR on mena" to "mena is locktown and never ever scum"

[Infinity 324]

I feel like the notsci/peta stuff is less strong than it could be because peta willingly flipped himself

[Infinity 324]

Tweet is the third consecutive player in this slot that has seemed very town

[Infinity 324]

It's probably relevant to our respective alignments

[Infinity 324]

Tweet I don't envy your spot I'm sorry you're getting exasperated

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: DC

[Infinity 324]

You literally said in postgame of black flag that you can be toxic as scum

And like there's 20000 reasons to TR every slot in this game so

[Infinity 324]

I don't actually know your scumgame. I don't think your play here is nearly as toxic as it was in black flag. I think your emotions are towny yeah, I think tweet's emotions are townier because I think you're the stronger scum player.

And bork nacho and bulge insist notsci is town

And salsa was very towny

And prism was very towny and I have no idea why he hammered bulge as scum

[Infinity 324]

Mena <3 go to sleep

[Infinity 324]

Again it doesn't make you nearly as town as it did in black flag and that's when I didn't know that you could get toxic as scum as well

It's +town but compared to all the other reasons I have for TRing people it barely registers

UNVOTE:

sigh

[Infinity 324]

yes, I who actively fucking detest scum and this is well known about me am here losing sleep over this game because of how much I care about my scumgame, of course

Meh you were good in UGC and you went on in PyP for a bit about how good your scumgame is

This engagement feels towny and I hate everything

[Infinity 324]

Granted I use them in conjunction w/ more effective and clean strategies rather than floppin' round like a seabass

Yeah that's kinda what I mean, normally strong scum will set themselves up to have stronger arguments later on, especially if they're doing something that's anti-town on it's face, rather than relying on "it would be dumb to do x as scum", I don't think you'd think that would be effective.

Part of what I was thinking about last night is how I really don't see prism as scum here, idk if you agree but I don't see him doing loopedy loops trying to avoid getting limmed here as scum when he could've just drawn less attention to himself by letting NM hammer. And the fact that prism is so ~messy~ here is like, why is he putting so much effort into getting into a mental headspace as scum if people are going to not understand it and write it off anyway? Idk

[Infinity 324]

Idk either tbh. This feels like a towny engagement

I don't remember reading another scumgame of yours, I definitely linked to towngames of yours but

At the end of the day I TRed you in UGC pretty strongly so

[Infinity 324]

Do you have a solve in a town!me world

[Infinity 324]

like the only possible team without you in it is notsci and that just...doesnt make sense because why does morning double down so hard on me if ur town

like morning's play here makes sense almost exclusively to me if you're scum because she needs to both protect you and push a mislim to win and there is, imo, given the gamestate, no other viable miselim that she can angle onto apart from me

Ok so we agree the game doesn't make sense if we're both town so stop giving me shit for scumreading you

[Infinity 324]

No hard feelings

[Infinity 324]

STOP THAT

Sorry that had the opposite effect that I intended

I'm gonna see what bulge thought

[Infinity 324]

Cakez for fucks sake will you just go look at associatives

Fuck what’s happening today all it is from scum is AtE pandering, look at past days and stop throwing

Notsci why do you keep wanting to look at associatives scum knew one of them would flip every day. Their whole job was to make their associatives look good

[Infinity 324]

HOW WAS IVERSON SCUM?

He's a very good scumplayer

I don't think his play seemed like a very good scumgame but /shrug

[Infinity 324]

Nacho and bulge probably would've said VFT/DC

I feel like if it was VFT/DC me or tweet would've been limmed by now. Scum!mena wouldn't get into that whole argument with me I don't think when he can just win. Idk

[Infinity 324]

Mara you don’t get to play the “I just joined the game” when the games been open 6 days and you’ve been here for 2. Yeah, I am tunneled on nacho. It’s pretty obvious but I’m not actively pushing it as I’m trying to reevaluate. And quite frankly, I don’t need your reads for me to do shit. My reads have been just fine lately, and I have multiple people here that can vouch for that.

I’ve literally had to poke abd prod to get anything out of you and all I got is some stupid “no you” shit like my stances aren’t obvious throughout my iso.

My theory behind the nacho thing was he would be expecting to get shut down and then the main people he pushed could pull the “hurrdurr flipped scum was pushing me” card.

@cakez- I was more so speaking to the negativity expressed there compared to here. Not really a marker for how I expect you to play as scum (particularly because I also mentioned literally every other game we’ve been in together too lmao)

I’ll try to be around tonight.

Ninja-
What gives you that idea? How she goes no u whenever someone pressures her?

At that moment I was in the game for just over 24 hours, if even that and you were asking me for my reads, what I thought of the game and to steer you in direction. I wouldn't, hold your hand bot when I was literally calling out for handouts In that point in time so i could see where everyones heads where and while I was laying low so I could figure out why the activity stopped when it did?

This is good for notsci

[Infinity 324]

Bulge literally kept saying he didn’t understand why you were getting all these townreads infinity

Oh if you're sheeping bulge you're absolutely voting me but bulge didn't have my role pm

[Infinity 324]

I'm imagining I have a masonry with the dead chat

[Infinity 324]

Ok now I get to see if DC is scum

I was leaning towards tweet

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: DC

[Infinity 324]

Unless skitt gamethrew DC is confscum to me

[Infinity 324]

I think it's over

? What scumteam could quickhammer here?

[Infinity 324]

clown is what notsci says instead of elim

[Infinity 324]

Gj scum you were awesome

[Infinity 324]

skitter carried

Tbh you did a great job of playing to your town meta, really helped solidify the TR on your slot through most of d3

And the mena interactions like that was some next level theater

[Infinity 324]

Prism thanks for pulling me out of my hole

[Infinity 324]

the upside of not having daytalk was that I legitimately didn’t know if mena was faking being angry with me or was actually angry and I wasn’t prepared for that, so all of my emotions there were genuine.

The part that stuck out to me most was you saying "I don't want to talk to you because you did something that offended me"

[Infinity 324]

Mena you're amazing <3

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that

[Infinity 324]

@mena Yeah it's definitely a tough spot to be in. You should definitely be proud of your victory but yeah you still need to work on keeping your emotions in check as both alignments and I'm glad you are working on it.

Did you believe the thing about it being wrong to hammer bulge? What you were saying seemed so wrong to me but I'd be impressed and the level of gaslighting if you didn't believe it

[Infinity 324]

Again, next level gaslighting

[Infinity 324]

Scum in 4v3 ELo (which is basically what d3 was) bus more than I think they do

[Infinity 324]

I have no idea why people were townreading me so much still at start of day3 after the two misflips >.>

You were posting towny stuff lol

What was tough about your play was that even knowing it was in your scumrange there's nothing about it you can call scum really

[Infinity 324]

It's possible the setup was scumsided in 2013 and isn't anymore

[Infinity 324]

It's possible the setup was scumsided in 2013 and isn't anymore

If the sidedness of the setup has changed, then players' skills as town/scum in aggregate at MS have changed.

I suppose that's possible. Players come and go.

I think towns are significantly better than they used to be

[Infinity 324]

I haven't thought about it much before but I think it's very possible and a useful discussion to have

[Infinity 324]

Yeah maybe other people play a lot of normals but I don't and I still experience towns having more accurate reads.

[Infinity 324]

Personally I'm just constantly scared as hell as scum and even when I'm able to channel that scaredness into geniune-sounding emotion it burns me out eventually. I always check the threads of my towngames before my scumgames.

[Infinity 324]

Yes good points

Putting your all into something and losing and still enjoying it is something that requires a lot of mental fortitude though, and it's not something I'm generally able to do. I came pretty close in this game though, which I consider a success at least.

[Infinity 324]

I tend to view townplay as a fun hang out with your friends type game and scum play as a competitive thing more often than not. I feel like the higher agency in scumplay lends itself to that more. Unfortunately you don't get to chose when to play which.

[Infinity 324]

I was scum with pooky in a recent game and we had an argument about how much effort to put into playing scum. Pooky said that I should try to chill and have fun because I'd be less nervous and I'd be less likely to burn out. I felt that I could enjoy the game while high efforting and trying to be more chill wouldn't necessarily help with the burnout problem. I guess I'm looking for advice on how to burn out less, is rationing your effort useful or is it just maintaining the right mindset?