In post 95, StrangeMatter wrote:I feel like it’s a weird paranoia to be worrying about both scum hammering on day 1 and outing themselves. Kind of want to know where you base this paranoia Greeting.
I am a little confused here.
Wouldn't this be a good thing that we shouldn't be paranoid about? Is that what you are saying?
Well, I've only ever used Quick Hammers as a way to end a game, and not once have I seen that happen earlier than ELO or MELO. Also yes, it would be a good thing since there is no utility for scum to do this, that's kind of why it's a weird paranoia to me.
In post 95, StrangeMatter wrote:I feel like it’s a weird paranoia to be worrying about both scum hammering on day 1 and outing themselves. Kind of want to know where you base this paranoia Greeting.
I am a little confused here.
Wouldn't this be a good thing that we shouldn't be paranoid about? Is that what you are saying?
Well, I've only ever used Quick Hammers as scum as a way to end a game, and not once have I seen that happen earlier than ELO or MELO. Also yes, it would be a good thing since there is no utility for scum to do this, that's kind of why it's a weird paranoia to me.
Holy wow my clarification is horrible.
EBWOP
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:37 am
by MegAzumarill
The paranoia is essentially scum will vote and then claim they did not know it was E-1
Which is still plausible
The probably worse case is if town actually does not know it is E-1 and then hammers (Which does happen)
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:52 am
by MegAzumarill
The solution is to force everyone to declare what they are putting a player at (i.e. e-2 or e-1)
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:31 am
by ProHawk
Okayy, have some time to dedicate here so I'll give some more of my thoughts in a bit after I do more reading and digesting.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:39 am
by ProHawk
We have about 3 days left, the next two days are going to be kinda hectic for a lot of us I'm sure.... we need to have someone lined up at E-1 so we can get claims and some time to deliberate although I'm sure with a replacement time may be extended??
I need to review arguments for Marcii, but I am not really feeling like that's a good first D1 elimination. I think flipping me town will give you all some good light on Prism so I'm okay if that's the direction we all want to go down. Between Marcii and myself, I would choose myself to flip I think, I'll get back to you on that.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:59 am
by Prism
I would like to know where the strength of that read comes from, and who you would be other good flips. Presumably I am still one but there isn't enough appetite.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:45 am
by Meuh
In post 402, MegAzumarill wrote:The paranoia is essentially scum will vote and then claim they did not know it was E-1
Which is still plausible
The probably worse case is if town actually does not know it is E-1 and then hammers (Which does happen)
Yeah I’ve been accidentally hammered by a townie who didn’t realize it was E-1 before, it’s a real possibility
In post 301, ProHawk wrote:That makes more sense. Why haven't you skimmed my previous games?
I literally just addressed this in the two previous posts. What is making sense to you here if not those posts?
Can you please directly answer my question instead of deflect with "go read my last two posts" because and I will quote them here... they skate around the question in a verbose method which isn't direct nor is it transparent.
Spoiler: Two Previous Posts
In post 299, Prism wrote:I again skimmed that game 3 weeks before the start of this one and only noticed Greeting in passing as my focus was on another player.
It informed my focus on using an analysis of his progression as opposed to tone and surface level when it came to reading the slot. My first post is exactly the result. I do not remember a single post of his, I have more vivid memory of the frustration of other players.
While it may seem like I have infinite time to work over every game played onsite, this is unfortunately not the case. I will reread it if I have time but it should be obvious
from the post you quoted
where my effort was directed and why.
In post 300, Prism wrote:Contrast this to marcistar and Meuh, who I skimmed new games of looking for
extremely specific behavior
as opposed to trying to divine some new pathway.
I will re-iterate. You are a meta-heavy player. You've accused me of "None of this points towards a genuine curiosity in my alignment." Well that same attribute goes straight to you in that vein. One would think that if you use meta as a guide to get to know a player (especially one that you are scum-reading and havent ever played with before) that you would be interested in doing a little skimming there no?
In fact, is there something I missed here that you've actually tried to engage me in that would help you figure out my alignment? Because from where I am sitting (and I do miss a lot of things so there's that) you got all upset in OMGUS style when I made a post against you and then voted for you. So if you can help me see where you are coming from without attacking me and saying "scum, scum, scum" that would be great.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:05 am
by ProHawk
In post 406, Prism wrote:I would like to know where the strength of that read comes from, and who you would be other good flips. Presumably I am still one but there isn't enough appetite.
This is D1.
Reads (at least mine) I don't hold a lot of weight on until I can get some concrete information to play with.
We have to vote someone off D1, so my approach is going with someone who I feel like has the greatest probability of flipping RED.
I like Marci's posting style and tone, I don't feel a lot of opportunism from her, I feel like she's actively searching for scum and digesting the thread in general. Could she be scum? Sure, all of us could at this point, but it would surprise me and I feel like others would do more to help drive the game for a town win than flipping Marci, my flip included.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:16 am
by Prism
In post 310, Prism wrote:Here, I will make it ridiculously fucking explicit, one second.
While I cannot decisively prove I read it prior to the start of this game, why the fuck would I even bring it up if I were trying to dodge using it?
I have further skimmed 2 games that I
had not already read this game
. The intention was to look for
extremely specific behaviors
as a sanity check.
-The first of these is marcistar, who contended that she could be this forceful on entrance as scum. I looked at a scumgame of hers, Isekai, and looked to see how forceful and assertive of an entrance she made. The contrast was clear.
-The second of these was Meuh, who posted a giant readslist. I looked at a scumgame of hers with the intention of seeing if this is something she had replicated. She had.
In post 313, Prism wrote:I have no reason to spectate your games without a
randomly or universally spectating games to divine things from scratch for every player in a game.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:19 am
by Prism
I have answered every question you have presented. You have yet to respond to any of the substantive reasoning I presented, other than calling it "OMGUS" and suggesting that I'm not interested in your alignment.
You quoted from the dual post of 358 and 359 and summarily ignored the actual allegations against you.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:20 am
by ProHawk
So if I am reading this correctly, you are stating that you do not normally meta people to determine alignment?
EBWOP: I'm getting there, have a little patience.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:22 am
by Prism
In post 409, ProHawk wrote:We have to vote someone off D1, so my approach is going with someone who I feel like has the greatest probability of flipping RED.
Right, but you're suggesting that you're a better flip than her, and while she does have two votes most of the table townreads her. The chance of you flipping red is supposedly zero, and there are other slots on the table (ex. StrangeMatter is consensus below-null even if not anyone's top SR)
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:26 am
by ProHawk
In post 314, Prism wrote:re: 302 Yours was the only start I hated because you didn't engage with the content and didn't follow up on the promise to. It was on page 2. I wrote a catchup post when I finished reading and didn't like my vote anywhere. I remembered that entrance existed and placed my vote accordingly.
The trajectory is 4 minutes. Do you think as scum worried about where to put a vote I just made the decision to vote nowhere, then changed it out of fear or nervousness <4 minutes later? This isn't something impossible to fake but there's a clear trajectory here and you're arguing it's a lack of one.
I have kept you in my top vote picks ever since that opening. I have grilled you continuously to make your reads concrete and to provide content. If the trajectory you're expecting is to have moved you to town, why on earth would I have when you still hadn't done a thing?
I'm not arguing that there is NO trajectory here, clearly as you have presented your defensive arguments you have shown that you had "reasons".
I am arguing that I don't see a natural progression of trajectory here. It FEELS off to me. It feels like you saw something you could push, voted, and kept it there until you had something more concrete either on myself or someone else.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:26 am
by Prism
In post 412, ProHawk wrote:So if I am reading this correctly, you are stating that you do not normally meta people to determine alignment?
When I am playing or spectating, I stumble across
specific
behaviors or attitudes
that I think may be strongly indicative of alignment.
I then
check those
specific behaviors
against the player's record
.
I typically do
not randomly read games
broadly
hoping to find something
.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:29 am
by Prism
That'd be great if you had acknowledged or worked through the reasoning.
You did not and contrary to what you're claiming now where it just seems fake, claimed it did not exist at the time of 111/137 and that this was the basis for the scumread.
You then shifted the goalpost that it was excluded for not being relevant, because I did not give it in my first vote out of RVS in the 90s.
Why did you cut all of the substantive criticism of your slot I gave from your quote of 111 and ignore all followups to it ex. 193/265?
The snippit from 111 was not criticism in the form of I'm scum-reading you. It was an explanation of your opening phrase which was a "friendly prod" meaning that snippit went to support why you "friendly prodded me". I'm glad that you were concerned about that stuff, but it's not more of a fence sitting observation than anything substantive.
The rest was you building a case based on your park-vote from my POV.
I'm not going to say that I am 100 percent correct because I'm not, and I usually don't hit scum on my D1 reads, but this is where my gut is taking me, so I'm going with it.
I think a lot of your frustration lies in you thinking that I meant that you had no-trajectory which I will admit I said in a way that is easy to be interpreted that way. I should have said that I see a lack of
natural
trajectory.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:44 am
by Prism
Since you're working through all of these in order, as opposed to settling for addressing the more succinct and complete 358 and 359, I will give you time to do so and circle back later rather than continue responding contemporaneously.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:58 am
by marcistar
In post 405, ProHawk wrote:Between Marcii and myself, I would choose myself to flip I think, I'll get back to you on that.
aaa do scum usually be like "i would choose myself over someone else"??
i think during the reading of the latest developments of the prism v prohawk arc, i think its just them not being able to understand/fulfill eachothers expectations clearly.
but ill still wait until prohawk gets more reads out to unvote, since thats largely why i was fine with the vote og
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:24 am
by ProHawk
Look Prism,
I think you're scum and that would explain your behavior for me.
You think I'm scum and that would explain my behavior for you.
We are going to talk to eachother in circles and shit up this thread which is counter-productive to what we should be doing which is allowing everyone the time and opportunity to get in here and give content, particularly those of us who are time-constrained and can't read pages on pages of posts and feel overwhelmed.
If you have any legitimate questions for me that would help you sort me I'm game. If you are going to point fingers at me and accuse me of shit all while asking me questions doing so, there isn't really a point in doing that so let's just not.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:29 am
by marcistar
prohawk did u already say what u think of strangematter or no..?
Would like to address this for the class though...
Caught for the wrong reasons is a syndrome of scum-not town.
Defensiveness is NAI, however OTT defensiveness I've found comes from scum-more than town.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:34 am
by ProHawk
In post 421, marcistar wrote:prohawk did u already say what u think of strangematter or no..?
Going through this ISO now. I actually haven't really paid much attention to their posts in the throes of my battle.
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:47 am
by Prism
You"re adamant I should have read your games looking for nothing in particular. Perhaps you should peruse the samples I linked and look for a very specific behavior. This hyperaggression in response to inadequate or contradictory pushes on me is my bread and butter.
I am aware of my meta and can fake it accordingly, but this is a trivial misconception to fix, and you would be powering down the same doomed and easily preventable path as many players before you in pursuing it.
