open 841: concgratulations to the winners and losers

[catboi]

sorry for not posting more, attention was focused on ELO in a newbie game last night, going to try to look back to this now

[catboi]

I don't know what he was thinking with this either way really

[catboi]

I remain confused as to why, even with the fear of the vig on the table, the move is to no elim when it seems to be near consensus that mena is scum


I mean I'm going to be pissed if menalque thought he was going to pull some big brain gambit and is town but the continued silence makes that more and more unlikely

[catboi]

good thing datisi picked #1 too otherwise I'd probly get NK'd early and won't be able to seize the top post count throne

see, that's probably how you beat me, unless we...

VOTE: Pooky

wow so it's going to be like that huh

I feel good about skitter, I really do, I don't think Pooky has 1 post of game related content, picked 1... ummm yeah I'm good with voting pooky for now, not like I have a reason to not vote here

I'd be shocked if you could find game related content in my posting ngl

it's just random spamming type posts. Pooky, who's maf?

Faker Mafia

I think if he was town he would've lost all his hair by now

I mean, I'm not playing this game solely off stats here, I'm voting you mostly cause for you it just seems to be "I want the highest post count" not "I'll actually play the game"

That's fair :3

I'm trying to look at pooky's ISO for associatives and it's pretty barren but I feel like this isn't scum/scum

[catboi]

I assure you mare does not take goddamn neighborizer with her pick if I'm on her team and even if she does she uses it night 1 to cop hunt

[catboi]

pooky basically didn't interact with any of nsg/flow/s_s

[catboi]

eh actually put catboi one down

ty for showing the proper level of respect

[catboi]

andante why the fuck did we not shoot the cop and leave him uncced instead if we'd found him, jesus christ

[catboi]

please stop to use a single second of logic instead of wildly jumping to the stupidest theory imaginable

[catboi]

andante why the fuck did we not shoot the cop and leave him uncced instead if we'd found him, jesus christ

I don't think you're maf and say that. so I think you're town. mare would be maf. mena is real cop with different reports than outed. mare would 100% neighborize pooky n1. I have no doubts of that

[catboi]

if mafia had a role report on the cop they kill them, unless they assumed they were roleblocked for whatever reason

[catboi]

VOTE: menalque

it's been 2 whole days

if he pulled some dumbfuck gambit then he can live with the consequences

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

[catboi]

i literally just remembered him doing a stupid cop claim gambit as town as a reaction test

[catboi]

i would hope he wouldn't do that shit and then ghost the game entirely but...

[catboi]

I just kind of want it to be over at this point

[catboi]

half the game has been burned on waiting for people who were afk to either come back or get replaced

[catboi]

Hi, claim in your first post

[catboi]

VOTE: enchant

classic enchant replacing into a scum slot

[catboi]

at least there's no more discussion of if it was a town reaction test

[catboi]

lol must consult with maf chat first I see....

y e p

[catboi]

I remain confused as to why they stuck with this

[catboi]

Alright Pooky is acting like Pooky, so my conclusion is that Pooky is either Town or Scum, but not both and not anything else. (I kinda like post 424, but is borderline NAI)

I like Dats opening tone wise; the skitter rsv thing carried on too long for my liking, though and that pings me the wrong way. 120 is kinda good imo since scum would likely be more aware of what they are doing that could be suspicious. 166 does sound genuine to me so I think it also pings me town, but not by much. Dats, I'm gonna need a better explanation on the 274 vote cause I feel like you need more considering how you said the numbers made me less likely to be scum earlier. Scum would prolly elaborate on 594. I was gonna call 670 scummy since it felt kind of self-saving, but rereading, it's not as bad as I thought. Skimming after ~700, but Dats seems to be giving an "are you serious" tone which I equate to being more towny. - TR

[catboi]

probably because he was really scummy and people rightfully didn't trust him

[catboi]

I did point that out already

[catboi]

Why would you not want to kill me when I'm confirmed scum to you

[catboi]

why would you assume I'd let you get another check

[catboi]

What, because we're...voting him? What about Enchant here looks genuine to you?

jesus christ pony changing our opinion on a dime to be contrarian isn't helpful

[catboi]

are you actually scum here is that what's going on

[catboi]

are you actually scum here is that what's going on

lol what how is this an actual thought?

Because the sudden swerve by you to no elim is coming out of nowhere and makes no sense and goes againt your previously stated stances but makes a *ton* of sense if you want to go "hey let's test enchant" and "confirm" him on day 4

[catboi]

5533 was enchant claiming maf btw

I don't get how *that* changed your mind

[catboi]

5533 was enchant claiming maf btw

I don't get how *that* changed your mind

It didn't? literally tell me where I was like "GUYS ENCHANT IS TOWN. TRUST"

like obviously I have some doubt, like yeah makes perfect sense for town mena to check you, me and you voted mena yesterday. it's no like it's a completely random guilty. but overall I'm just done with this game. all the waiting/people not talking has killed the vibe

looking at the VC makes me think Mena/enchant is real, and then catboi and kaji are maf tbh

so uhhh wanna no lim? cause I'm not getting a good feeling that flipping Enchant leads us to a win

LITERALLY LESS THAN AN HOUR AGO

DO YOU ACTUALLY HOLD ANY THOUGHTS IN YOUR HEAD OR IS IT LIKE A SIEVE WHERE THE INSTANT YOU PUT SOMETHING IN IT IMMEDIATELY DRAINS OUT

[catboi]

@enchant catboi is now funnier than you

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fucked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fuckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

[catboi]

kids these days have no taste

[catboi]

look, I'll just stop talking ok, catboi I didn't mean to anger you, I really didn't. Just keep playing d3 without me, I'm voting enchant out, that's that, I should die tonight, then you don't have to even interact with me on d4

relax it's a movie quote

[catboi]

I am not surre how you feel anything from flow

[catboi]

me, opening up flow iso and feeling townvibes from him:

I am not surre how you feel anything from flow

Hello pls

[catboi]

I am mostly lost as to where the discussion around no elimination is going

I guess I should be looking at other things I just find playing mafia mostly aggravating right now

[catboi]

i dont care about snipes about what im posting

post original content

u have 1 conf scum from your pov, where is the indication that you are solving anything from that pov

That's not a snipe, it's a question ffs

I am trying to get your perspective

[catboi]

I mean, Pooky picked 1.. intended to be top of the draft

that is not how that works

There's nothing wrong with pushing Pooky, but the number analysis isn't really damning. If it were, it would also be damning for Datisi, is my point.

I don't TR pooky, you're kinda making it sound like you do? what're your thoughts on Pooky?

I have no read on Pooky beyond "collided = > rand town", I will probably remain that way for quite some time because I have a shite record of reading him.

okay, can you then make a super simple list of "people i think are town, scum, neither"

Sure.
Town - midway, Mare, nsg, Alyssa
Scum - Andante
Neither - skitter, Cakez, catboi, Menalque, Datisi

okay, *why*

Top draft is decently correlated with being scum, her play has done nothing to shake me off of that, scum presumably made two kills and neither was aimed at the top 3 (which I believe is fairly rare? might be worth checking the stats there), she's been playing up how she is a known PR and how much that matters and then she claims under basically zero pressure with zero info, her reaction to the double kill was pretty awkward and may have betrayed knowledge that it was a scum vig, and now she's shading me off of Mena associatives rather than push me directly which may be to avoid OMGUS accusations.

Discussion of pooky/mena from something_smart is basically nothing, which is kind of expect but it ain't great

[catboi]

Any tips on how to read Pooky?

Ah, I know how to solve this!

Pooky, are you scum?

Alright Pooky is acting like Pooky, so my conclusion is that Pooky is either Town or Scum, but not both and not anything else. (I kinda like post 424, but is borderline NAI)

I like Dats opening tone wise; the skitter rsv thing carried on too long for my liking, though and that pings me the wrong way. 120 is kinda good imo since scum would likely be more aware of what they are doing that could be suspicious. 166 does sound genuine to me so I think it also pings me town, but not by much. Dats, I'm gonna need a better explanation on the 274 vote cause I feel like you need more considering how you said the numbers made me less likely to be scum earlier. Scum would prolly elaborate on 594. I was gonna call 670 scummy since it felt kind of self-saving, but rereading, it's not as bad as I thought. Skimming after ~700, but Dats seems to be giving an "are you serious" tone which I equate to being more towny. - TR

how much should I care that Menalque basically hopped onto the same wagon on me despite my slot being his apparently third strongest scumread?

Something_Smart

Datisi
skitter30

SirCakez

Sleepless Assassin
Andante
innocentvillager

catboi

Alyssa The Lamb flow trap
northsidegal
Mare

Menalque PookyTheMagicalBear
midwaybear

Faker

This feels like a comfy solve

Datisi

skitter30

Andante

Kaiji northsidegal

Something_Smart
SirCakez
catboi
Mare
Menalque PookyTheMagicalBear
midwaybear

Midwaybear gives the most info on the game itself if flipped
SirCakez is a slot I think will have to be flipped at some point, so is a safe option for future sanity reasons
catboi is the single slot most likely to be turned on for paranoia reasons, so is a safe option even though I don't think it's very productive atm
S_S mostly is just a slot I struggle to read, nowadays I'm a little more confident I will be able to read him correctly over time since I think the game won't be stagnant like it was early in the day forever, so I'm not really into it
Mare/Menalque are the lazy way out kills that will have to be sorted somehow eventually but it gives us borderline nothing to kill today

Mare/Menalque are the lazy way out kills that will have to be sorted somehow eventually but it gives us borderline nothing to kill today

just realized this looks weird

we get basically nothing from flipping either of them

alright well

whatever I guess

VOTE: Menalque

just stating for the record that I still don't think this gets us anywhere regardless of the flip though

1. Something_Smart
   
   Datisi
   skitter30
   
   Andante
   
   catboi
   
   Alyssa The Lamb
   
   Kaiji
   
   Mare
   
   Menalque

Menalque really needs to do something

then look at the slots that did nothing

ngl I think that borderline confscums Menalque

eh Kaiji can wait actually

VOTE: Menalque

flow had kind of a weird thing with pooky in day 1 and made a non-read read on him, and I hate the "no info" excuses from alyssa w/r/t menalque because I feel like it's avoiding making any real judgment on the slot

[catboi]

why is it so hard to yeet enchant? I put enchant e-1 then suddenly no one wants to yeet enchant?

that has been my feeling more or less this whole game

[catboi]

current theory is mainly that mena flipping would have spewed too many slots as town and that's why it was so hard to get people to vote him

[catboi]

I don't want to drown the thread in quotedumps but Kaiji can you explain what made you go from scumreading pooky's posts to townreading them?

[catboi]

I don't want to drown the thread in quotedumps but Kaiji can you explain what made you go from scumreading pooky's posts to townreading them?

I thought kaji automatically TRed pooky?

not initially

[catboi]

I don't like Pooky's entrance so dumping my vote on his slot until further notice VOTE: Menalque

I don't like Pooky's entrance so dumping my vote on his slot until further notice VOTE: Menalque

What about it didn't you like

everytime pooky makes jokes about how he's scum it makes me feel a fire in my veins that makes me want to eliminate him at any cost because i have never seen him do so as town.

typing up a nice PoE, mostly just eliminating who i townread. I don't think Ihave a solid "scumread" here -> but I will start with mena slot and go from there.

aight -

I have a rough PoE coming::


I like:
Datisi, Andante, Flow Trap slot Cakez

I am mostly neutral on: Mare, Skitter, midwaybear

*raises eyebrows* : catboi, something_smart

my veins burn: mena

I want to commit to one of mena/midway/cakez here - but none of them scream scum to me other than pooky's posts which i could easily be clowning myself on.

i'm like 99% sure andante is town here and midway voting there feels like a lolvote to antispew because theyre locked into being in the awkward position of a claimed doc.

cakez as far as im concerned if theyre hanging on the low of the PoE they aren't going to be useful as town anyways due to their habits of never catching up late game so I'm thinking of trusting this PoE and consolidating here: VOTE: Cakez

oh pooky is town


cakez is also town so rip


so mena slot is town



so i was right about trying to prevent a tvt



fuck yall i aint ever compromising this shit always happens

oh pooky is town


cakez is also town so rip

i am confused where this is coming from

i went thru pooky iso to look at cakez interactions because i had a brainwave about pokemon theme game

Like I don't really get the progression here

[catboi]

it is actuallyimpressiv how little I get out of anyone regarding pookythemenachant

[catboi]

and like if you think the people who aren't

doing anything

are scummy and you think the game state is stagnant, it's kind of easy to actually cast a vote that will matter instead of vanity voting SA who isn't really even here?

it just feels like you're going through the motions rather than actually doing something that will move the game state forward.

anyways do you want to vote MWB together? you think he is mafia anyway right?

ok i'm back, sorry for bouncing in the middle:

- this interaction actually pinged me quite a lot, and the first thought that popped into my head is that you're scum with sleepless / trying to get me to move my vote off of him for some reason
- i utterly hate the bolded and it feels rather manipulative, so no
- i'm not sure why voting mwb 'together' would be a selling point
- i made it clear in a few different ways / a few different times that i'm worried about the slots Without Content, and i'm trying to change that by making them provide content. in a fairly stagnant gamestate where we're rapidly running otu of time, why is this a problem?
-- sure it might be an 'easy' vote but given the above context i'm not sure why you're objecting to it
- i really don't care about who picked over/under 7, and even if that's how you're approaching the game, i'm not sure why you think that's how *i* would be approaching the game, and i think given that it invalidates the crux of your issue with my mwb interactions, which, quite frankly, i think are silly

And i gotta bounce like now but i'll pick this up tom, have a great weekend!

ok happy new year!!! <3 ya

ty <3
hope you had (are having) a happy new year

What's the significance of 'under 7' anyways / why would i care abt that?

I split the slots in my head into under 7 / over 7 cuz that's about where you can expect to get a power role.(its not science its just me guessing)

I think scum are incentivized in this setup to go into the low numbers to get good stuff to deny it to town and make themselves harder to yeet.

I think of the game as trying to figure out who the baddies are in the low numbers and then using that to sort the rest of the game because I think it's almost impossible for scum to go all high numbers and win this game?

ok well this isn't how i'm approaching this game

I'm not 100% of the way on mwb and its possible she is baiting me in some way to push town mwb by being coy and slippery.

how am i baiting you to push town mwb when you're the one who:
- asked me how i was reading him
- asked me to vote him with you

and i didn't bring him up to you ...

chewing on this interaction

it'd be surprising to see skitter calling out pooky in this way if they were teammates and the "you want to vote midwaybear" doesn't feel like how he'd go for distancing?

[catboi]

catboi busy IIOAing

andante just loltowning like usual

mare just straight doing nothing

fuckin love this game



andante why is catboi town

quotedumps aren't IIOA thanks

[catboi]

call me town or scum catboi

come on

i want stances

not statements of fact/questions


my chips are on that ur in antispew mode bc ur about to be confirmed scum and thats why you wont and the townies present,(mainly andante) are too stubborn to evaluate that because their egos are too huge.

This isn't even close to how I operate when I'm about to flip

yeah you're scum here

[catboi]

GG I was mafia

[catboi]

yeah I'm just trolling sorry

[catboi]

kaiji switching to try to bulldoze the game to their will is actually incredibly scummy

[catboi]

I mean if enchant were town I'd be confirmed scum

I'm town tho so

[catboi]

feeling like I got pocketed by kaiji this whol dancer around enchant the last couple days makes absolutely no sense

[catboi]

kaiji switching to try to bulldoze the game to their will is actually incredibly scummy

when has that ever been in my scummeta?

everythig I've seen from you is just hardshoving town by trying to be the loudest voice in the room

[catboi]

i think its hilarious that you can only post surface level quips about me without any verification because reality will never agree with you.

also I thought enchant was flipping town?

[catboi]

feeling like I got pocketed by kaiji this whol dancer around enchant the last couple days makes absolutely no sense

no u dont rofl

u just know that schadd isnt around to lock thread rn

Oh damn nice save definitely not betraying that you know what the flip is

[catboi]

i'd also like to add tho that andante is extremely anti bus and has expressed an unexplained townread on catboi and mare


which is why my solve is the way it is rn

she is absolutely not townreading mare and I had to talk her out of that read

second that's an absolutely nonsensically dumb draft for obvious reasons

further if you actually believe this, why are you pushing for no elimination here when it proves ~nothing

This is just you laying the groundwork for enchant being outed tomorrow

[catboi]

also would like to note that enchant flipped his vote the instant skitter said him voting for no elim didn't make sense

[catboi]

and as scum i'd be completely salivating at the opportunity to get that to happen

[catboi]

if there's hno n3 vig then town waste an elimination they get nothing from and I sacrifice kill enchant and send things to 6p mylo

[catboi]

i think i just talked myself into a catboi/andante/{s_s/alyssa} team

please explain in what universe I kill midwaybear n2 with that team

like it's really not actually that hard to think about

if mwb/kaiji is TvT then Iwant to keep that going. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot with nightkills (unless I'm tilted because my teammates gamethrew but that's a different story entirely)

[catboi]

I am more interested in why there is a guilty on catboi and why he isn't the leading wagon.

Because mena was slanking all game, claimed the guilty in a crappy way, and then flaked, and then enchant came in and also claimed terribly

[catboi]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13223429

for context this was after days of inaction where literally everyone else had claimed IIRC

[catboi]

Extremely conveniently timed re-evaluation on Andante's slot

surely nothing else could have motivated this change

[catboi]

Extremely conveniently timed re-evaluation on Andante's slot

surely nothing else could have motivated this change

what exactly is this referring to

galron comes into the game and goes "why aren't we voting catboi"

suddenly kaiji's scumteam is me/mare/datisi after they were calling for andante's head the past few pages and having a chuckle about how galron was outed for not claiming right away

beyond obvious it's not an honest evaluation and is purely conditional on him having reads that are beneficial to kaiji

[catboi]

sure whatever

[catboi]

beyond obvious to me that's what's going on

[catboi]

catboi literally only pops into this thread to defend himself and do 0 solving except for like surface level garbage to give the appearance he is.

Unlucky for catboi, enchant replaced in and i have confidence reading enchant.

Last 2 times enchant subbed into a town slot that was suspected i managed to flip reads there and turn onto scum(squid game, scp upick)

because nothing relevant is happening and you're just shitting up the thread with a wall of noise with no actual meaningful reasoning hoping to exhaust people

[catboi]

in general i do not feel like playing this fucking shit anymore

[catboi]

koba's purposefully trying to tilt me

[catboi]

I also am pretty sure scum do not have a N3 vig

I would not gamble on that or else I'd be saying fuck this game and selfvoting right now

[catboi]

Ok well does anyone here think my goal is to tilt

Because its a pointless avenue and a dumb distraction

considering you bullied andante out of the game for disagreeing with you, yeah, that is your goal, you just play like a complete cunt to try to get your way as scum

[catboi]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=160&t=85650

[catboi]

it's obnoxious but no one else is even actually attempting to communicate and you're trying tostring me up for some horseshit "not solving" accusation that I get hit with in every game because the only measure of towniness in 2022 is how much bilge you vomit into the thread

but whatever, here's the thing - i genuinely don't believe rereading and re-evaluating are worthwhile anymore. i think they genuinely make my reads significantly worse as every time i have tried to do so. so in general from here on out i am trying to stick to my first impulse and make the most basic reads as i see what is happening. this does not lead to conventional eye-pleasing play where i dump tons of walls and get praised for "trying really hard" after losing the game, but i do not care. i am sick of that. i play the game on my own terms and if people won't read me on those terms, they can eat shit. it is not particularly hard for me to bullshit an essay as scum. i have done so before. the issue is that as town i care more about figuring out the truth, i can't just twist every pt into something AI. this game in and of itself is a huge slog and trying to backread gets me nothing. so i am just trying to play it forward and generate reads as things move along.


further, menalque went multiple weeks doing almost fuckall and faced essentially ~no pressure there, which is a pretty strong fucking sign he was getting protected. the problem is, the ISO from all the players in that slot is impressively fucking useless, and I get essentially nothing out of looking what other people said about menalque. I don't have a good way to describe this, please just go back and look at pooky/menalque. They were both essentially playing to leave as few associations as possible

koba's read on the pooky/mena/enchant slot is borderline nonsensical, the pivot from a scumread to a townread is never justified. the entire reaction to the claim of trying to claim they're being tied together is absurdly self-conscious, i don't think anyone thinks that way as town. the defense of enchant also is a big fat fucking nothing that avoids any qualitative assessment of his play (because it makes no fucking sense as coming from town), the whole thing is gish gallop attempt to overwhelm the thread and exhaust people so they give in rather than making any remotely coherent argument.

they are fundamentally

right

that my scumread on them is purely reactive but that is how the game goes sometimes - scum aren't obvious to you until they start pushing on you. that was the exact case with skitter in slaughter hour - i only really "caught" her because she tried to get me eliminated and it made no fucking sense. that's exactly what is happening with koba because they decided to go all in on trying to get me flipped today

[catboi]

anyway that's my fucking spiel i'm done engaging with koba because they are just going to try to twist shit as much as possible and it's a waste of time even though i can't resist snapping back

if you flip me today and the game does not actually end, do not let koba get away with this shit, do not listen to any fucking excuses, just fucking speedvote them immediately


(i do not have the slightest bit of confidence in leaving a read on the third, i'm not going to try)

[catboi]

(i am also annoyed because a month ago i spent an entire game getting assaulted by scum for 'not solving' and it's the exact same pattern of making completely fucking unreasonable demands and attacking people for not meeting them)

[catboi]

anyway that's my fucking spiel i'm done engaging with koba because they are just going to try to twist shit as much as possible and it's a waste of time even though i can't resist snapping back

if you flip me today and the game does not actually end, do not let koba get away with this shit, do not listen to any fucking excuses, just fucking speedvote them immediately


(i do not have the slightest bit of confidence in leaving a read on the third, i'm not going to try)

Damn classic mafia speech.
Also i supposed DkKuba is first they should to fastvote? Why? DO you think i will dieeeeee after you at night?

Catboi starts to post links on games in hopes to prove something. He doesh't have real argumentation.

fuck off

[catboi]

why is enchant town

i don't care about finding a team that works

there is one vote today to find 1 scum

defend that slot's play on its own merits, no worldbuilding shit

[catboi]

i do not need colored votecounts and arbitrary conclusions

[catboi]

why is enchant town

i don't care about finding a team that works

there is one vote today to find 1 scum

defend that slot's play on its own merits, no worldbuilding shit

i do not need colored votecounts and arbitrary conclusions

The play from the slot is congruent enough by itself with being a cop, and even if Kaiji did cherrypick a paper trail that he had laid out before, I don't think they would kill midwaybear too

please explain why

I

kill midwaybear with a possible cop in existence, because that is an outright gamethrow of a kill - further there's no reason for him to die if it's town tunneling town. was the exact same scenario in my newbie game that just ended where scum killed the person they were tunneling in the hopes people would paranoia onto each other instead - problem is logically if its a TvT deathtunnel scum have every reason to want to preserve that

further just because the play from the slot was low effort shit does not make it town PR play - can just as easily be fozen lurksack scum (and that was basically how menalque played the time i saw him as scum). the fact that enchant is

still

trying to argue for no elimination should raise a pretty big red flag

[catboi]

Hi i'm like here but i'm getting on a plane soon so uh where should i vote

Pedit i dont think catboi takes the draft picks / night actions he would have had to as as scum

you should vote enchant though idk if that gets enough votes anymore

[catboi]

okay

and I think that slot is town

so if that's the reason

then why does that only apply to some slots and not other slots

the point is the mafia are not playing like there was the threat of a cop in play

[catboi]

enchant is blatantly masfia and there still hasnt been a single coherent reason offered to townread him

[catboi]

okay

and I think that slot is town

so if that's the reason

then why does that only apply to some slots and not other slots

the point is the mafia are not playing like there was the threat of a cop in play

explain this like I'm a toddler

ok

even if there is a single clear on midwaybear after the night

a live cop can produce multiple clears or a guilty

priority for me would not be killing 1 clear in mwb but in hunting for the cop - for any mafia team, really. unless they had drafted the cop row and would have no reason to fear a guilty. and in the world where i'm scum i absolutely have

someone

try to take cop because even if we miss on it we could narrow down the possibilities, because in terms of power the cop is a massive gamechanger relative to any other PR in the setup (S_S could probably explain the mechanics on this)

[catboi]

i just checked to see if pooky would ever breadcrumb and the only time he ever did anything like that was fakeclaiming masons with alisae when he was mafia

[catboi]

trying to claim pooky would breadcrumb (on day 1, no less) is carrying so much water i'd be surprised your back isn't giving out - it's not remotely within his personality and it has literally 0 benefit as town but is great if you're planning a fake guilty and want something to point back to

[catboi]

Nnnnnnnnnnn.

Why claim a guilty on Catboi of all people...

b/c it fit with his "reads" and a guilty on anyone else would look suspect?

[catboi]

VOTE: Faker

are you high right now

Pooky if you actually want to engage on that vote you should give something. I do not think you understood what I was doing in the Mini Normal and am very convinced you took the wrong lessons from it.

I'm not going to do historical analysis and lecture you again, but I am very confident you do not know how to read me and you should dialogue about the present.

I've never seen you be so happy/pleasant b4

what's up with that?

Not the crumb but shit like this is town af pooky trying to solve

are you shitting me

when he's actually motivated as town he goes at 100 mph one limp-wristed vote is not "trying to solve"

[catboi]

>_<

I hate this game ahhh.

p-edit: Yeah but like... ah............ it feels so much easier to do... someone else to fit in with the flow of the game's reads as a whole, throw something out there like "not paying attention saw this name".

i don't fucking know ydrasse

maybe he thought he'd have a hard time justifying another report

maybe he didn't think it through very much

maybe scum saw this as their best opportunity to ML me and save an easier misflip for ELO

i can't read minds. scum do crazy shit sometimes. that it seems weird

to you

doesn't mean they wouldn't do it, it's not like it has no tactical value (clearly)

[catboi]

I have thought before X would not do... things they do because of how emotive they are like, genuine emotion. Like what Pooky did. But...

...nyeeeh.

he's not nancy but this is going to be a case study in why you shouldn't make those sorts of reads

[catboi]

>_<

I hate this game ahhh.

p-edit: Yeah but like... ah............ it feels so much easier to do... someone else to fit in with the flow of the game's reads as a whole, throw something out there like "not paying attention saw this name".

i don't fucking know ydrasse

maybe he thought he'd have a hard time justifying another report

maybe he didn't think it through very much

maybe scum saw this as their best opportunity to ML me and save an easier misflip for ELO

i can't read minds. scum do crazy shit sometimes. that it seems weird

to you

doesn't mean they wouldn't do it, it's not like it has no tactical value (clearly)

:/

I get you're like frustrated by things going on but I am just trying to think out loud.

(Arguably I feel like... I am one of the people on your side... ish here? I don't like seeing people not have fun like this...)

i'm sorry i'm just fighting because that's what i'm supposed to do and i get wound up in these situations

[catboi]

neighborizer better role than ascetic cop amirite :3

oh my god that is a fucking reach

[catboi]

there is no fucking way in hell you genuinely believe that is a crumb

[catboi]

"he posted the words "ascetic cop" that means he is that role!"

[catboi]

there is no fucking way you actually believe that

[catboi]

koba is literally openwolfing

[catboi]

rofl I have to go to sleep anyways but hf

town catboi doesn't blow up like this when pressured btw rofl


At least not in my experience.

i 300 posted a newbie game because i was getting tunneled off a "failed reaction test" from a town PR

i absolutely lose my shit when i get pushed as town and enough people here have played with me to know that

meanwhile ydrasse saw me get fake guiltied as scum a couple weeks ago and basically give up because i knew i couldn't get out of it

[catboi]

i don't think i can take another week of this

[catboi]

VOTE: enchant

[catboi]

It should go without saying but I absolutely sacrifice myself on the cop as scum here

[catboi]

U mean kill enchant and eat the flip?

Fwiw i'm like >90% voting enchant i just want to get the mechanical formalities out of the way

Yeah there is zero chance I would leave him alive to potentially get another guilty

[catboi]

okay, assuming that scum!mare doesn't take neighbourizer as top scum in draft: from my pov, either the team is exactly catboi/alyssa/kaiji, or enchant is lying.

anything that disproves that team?

Mare, as soon as she actually shows up, will disprove it

[catboi]

good shit

i am increasingly angry we did not vote him out yesterday

same but like

day 2 really

[catboi]

Amd we're sure mare is town?

I'm jusr thinking through everything (tinfoil for why galron died over mare, etc)

I never let her take neighborizer with the top pick

[catboi]

I wish I felt vindication or like anything but I'm just exhausted right now

[catboi]

Catboi if you're not doing some batshit crazy gambit with enchant, I apologize for the read flip.

I do want to say I would never have mena guilty you there as I was townreading you.

You'll prob write that off as WIFOM but it is true.

You realize that you are like, the primary candidate here for faking a guilty on town, right? I don't know who else actually tries to pull something like that.

[catboi]

I wish I felt vindication or like anything but I'm just exhausted right now

this is karma for circus mafia

look that was dumb but I had a REASON

[catboi]

I put in basically 0 time thinking about this game overnight because I didn't want to and was anticipating more of a screaming match today

I can try to actually put a read in tomorrow

[catboi]

I think that I'm not the only one who could think of that. As much as I'd like to discuss hypotheticals, I think: You, Skitter, SS, Alyssa, Datisi are all capable also of suggesting a fake guilty, which means it is something that doesnt really narrow teams down here.

I cede yes it is possible I have him do that but i dont think in that situation.

Why wouldn't you do it

[catboi]

oh right brainflash SS literally did have a teammate fake a guilty in this setup

[catboi]

I thought about all my scumgames - and i have to point out, the hallmark about my scumplay in setups with PRs is that i will nearly *always* claim a PR unless its an open where i already let all prs claim uncc
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=4325
I was rereading this game mainly for reasons ~ (not sure if i shiuld bring up why is like all) ~ and i sorta saw like how i treat PR play to obfuscate my play and i make perfect claims more often than not.
Mini normal Bending is another example too where i used my mailman claim to fakeclaim complex mailman

dunno just something for people to think about

Okay, but the significant difference is that this *is* an open and your options for fakeclaims are severely restricted, so I don't see why you're bringing this up

[catboi]

Actually dont answer that.
I want you alive in limlo for reasons and you shouldn't show your hand.

Idk who scum kill here for next 2 kills but it will be illuminating imo

Meh halfway thru typing this i realized that if i do trust my solve that it is optimal for them to kill you so nvm don't hide anything lol

I kinda wanted catboi alive bc of a previous games limlo where i know they can read through certain things

I don't want me alive in ELO I'm fucking terrible at it

[catboi]

I still think Kaiji's scum but I don't want to explain it right now


I'm not extremely confident in that read so use your own judgment if I die

[catboi]

well I wasn't going to say it but the post I had typed and then deleted was talking about how generally when a townie gets their worldview shaken ther's kind of an adjustment they go through and it didn't feel like kaiji's opening to today felt like it came from someone who was all-in on me being scum yesterday

[catboi]

for the record i can 100% buy that kaiji had a 180 as town, my issue is that it doesn't completely match up, like the thoughts on enchant yesterday vs admitting today they never actually saw him as scum etc

it's not about a basic binary of "omg read changed" because I think anyone seeing the evidence (enchant being alive, mare claiming no hood) would have to re-evaluate. but generally when a town player has to let go of a read they had a strong belief in, there's, like, a period of having to process that and having to come to terms with it and instead it's just, like, immediate turnabout and trying to appeal to me after we were at each others throats and it doesn't feel natural

there's also kind of a talking out of both sides of their mouth thing going on where they're saying they wouldn't have gone all in to get me misyeeted yesterday and would have positioned themself to endgame but also prefer to go out early and set their partners up as scum and it's like, it can't be both

[catboi]

I saw catboi phone it in recently like, no energy whatsoever but it doesn’t feel quite the same here as it does in that game.

that was a game that was dead until a bunch of subs came in and I got mech guiltied but I feel like I efforted

more

there

[catboi]

gut says catboi just kills enchant tonight and we kill catboi tomorrow so that possible galron town can be able to guilty someone potentially.

mare and enchant claim

Kaiji looks abt 19x worse in a scum-enchant world

are you setting me up as a mislim here?

catboi is there a timelimit?

Look at the different in timestamps.

I think your point is bad and not useful but it doesnt even apply here

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make

[catboi]

Why does it matter if Enchant gets another guilty though? If scum-catboi can convince people that town-Enchant is scum, he just wins immediately.

Are you actually arguing for the possibility of me being scum still?

[catboi]

so what is Your take on the game, as a player in it, right now

[catboi]

i was literally about to ask that wtf catboi

[catboi]

Become more confident that Enchant flips like VT or the vig and that I will die tonight trying to divine if Skitter is AC or not.

i can't imagine scum wouldn't choose BP over ascetic but also you shouldn't have said anything

[catboi]

Ok

How i post game advancing content

lol

[catboi]

I thought you were going to be doing things with the time, not...whatever this is

[catboi]

oh nvm im seeing gira was semi active in that spec chat now >.>

I knew your alignment but read maybe 2 pages of that game, i would rather shoot myself in the head than follow a 8k post game i'm not a part of

[catboi]

I am confident in nothing

[catboi]

A long vacation. Which I'm not going to get.

[catboi]

I mean I guess the problem is I don't particularly trust my own ability to make reads

[catboi]

No I just generally don't think I'm very accurate and rereading tends to be actively detrimental to my reads, contrary to popular wisdom

[catboi]

No I just generally don't think I'm very accurate and rereading tends to be actively detrimental to my reads, contrary to popular wisdom

How do you generally get your reads

Like what type of logic

In terms of process it depends, because I change up my playstyle. Originally thi account waskind of meant to try to be more analytical where as peta I was very gut-based and aggressive and it wore me out. I try to play more observational, hang back, look at what someone is saying, if I believe it makes sense as coming from a town mindset I file them away as town, if the stuff they're saying is suspect/doesn't make sense I vote them and push on them. I tend to be fairly reticent in townreading people becaue I usually want to get those right and I might not verbalize a read until I'm fully comfortable with it. I might if I don't have leads go back into someone's ISO and look at their body of work to see if there's a believable amount of scumhunting going on, if that person looks like they're actively trying to figure things out or if they're posting words that aren't going anywhere. In a late game spot I probably just try to find a single solid townread and vote the person I think is most likely to be scum. I actively try to avoid team solving.

Lately I've been trying more to just hang back and follow others because I feel better playing a supporting role rather than trying to take command of the game myself, so if someone I townread has a strong read I'll just sheep it. That's something I've been trying recently because I had 3 consecutive games where I misvoted in ELO and basically decided my own instincts aren't worth a shit anymore. Otherwise normally in this situation I'd be ISO dicing everyone and looking at their approach to the confired scum in Enchant but I'm genuinely not sure it'd be helpful.


It's a lot harder actually typing it out trying to explain it than actually doing it.

[catboi]

I caught up but feel as though it's best for me to just not talk about my reads at this point

[catboi]

I'm just going to leave it a mystery

[catboi]

I have no fucking memory lmfao

[catboi]

I'm sure it existed but I never write anything down so whatever it was has vanished from my mind into the ether

[catboi]

Oh now I remember what it was from rereading your ISO

[catboi]

I mean that would be the world's funniest slowroll but he confessed a while back

[catboi]

i didn't want to read last night, will get to this sometime today

[catboi]

Turns out I don't enjoy mafia much anymore.

Which isn't an excuse, but it is what it is.

[catboi]

I was half-assedly bullshitting a scumread on you on the assumption we just default no elim to go to 5 assuming if you're scum you just kill me and if I'm alive I probably flip it but beyond that I wasn't expending brainpower

[catboi]

But if you want to argue that my master plan as scum is to have my teammate guilty me and then go completely belly up and not exert any influence, go right ahead

[catboi]

A metadive says that you didn't lay recent endgames like this as scum but you also had the win sewn up in those cases and as such didn't need to rock the boat. I'm not actually convinced this is out of your scum range at all

[catboi]

s_s, why is kaiji town?

Two main reasons. One, I buy the argument that scum-Kaiji doesn't make these kills. If Kaiji is scum they have basically brought all of the people who can threaten them to melo. I do not think this is impossible for them to do as a WIFOM play but nobody has been buying this argument all game so it seems like it would be massively making things harder on themself to play into it anyway. Two, I don't think that scum-them tries so hard to control the game when their partner Enchant is already trying to cause a distraction, and this does feel like a situation where town would be more inclined to try than scum since scum only need one mislim to win. (Plus, I don't see scum-Kaiji burning that much towncred to push catboi over Enchant unless they win from it, so a team with Kaiji would have to have the n3 vig and have holstered it.)

Who are you claiming Kaiji would kill here, exactly? Your theory here is that the team is me/skitter, which would me I spent all of day 3 1v1ing my teammates for absolutely no good reason. Do you

really

think that's plausible?

[catboi]

no offense datisi, but like me, as town you are very pocketable.

cheeky

[catboi]

upon seeing the enchant vig flip, i got reminded that kaiji slipped they arent vig. To my utter frustration and annoyance, they are probably town (and probably my strongest tr at this point)

how does that make kaiji town, I don't get it

[catboi]

I actually have zero idea who scum is right now

good night

[catboi]

i'm playing like shit i jhate this game

[catboi]

Turns out I don't enjoy mafia much anymore.

Which isn't an excuse, but it is what it is.

Correction: i dont enjoy * this game* much anymore.

You are plenty enjoying mafia.

every time I've rolled town in a longform game the past few months it's been abjectly miserable (marathon/turbo stuff aren't really the same to me)

but I don't want to make this about my mental state really, I regret posting that stuff last night

[catboi]

upon seeing the enchant vig flip, i got reminded that kaiji slipped they arent vig. To my utter frustration and annoyance, they are probably town (and probably my strongest tr at this point)

how does that make kaiji town, I don't get it

why are none of the people who expressed suspicion of me dead?

because you need to kill the PRs that were consensus town first and thought you could win a 1v1

like are you seriously trying to argue you'd nightkill skitter here

[catboi]

ok but please post things that are alignment indicative not just AtE. Those votecouns I posted have another theory applicable to them - try to think criticaly from your POV why d3 went the way it did.

I'm not sure what your poit is - in that situation as scum I'd just bus menalque since he wasn't doing anything

[catboi]

will try to carve out time for this tomorrow

i hate being in these spots but if i do nothing but sulk that's my fault

[catboi]

I'm trying to read over and grok skitter's arguments for alyssa being scum to try to get myself back into the game and I'm not finding the reasoning all that convincing. The citation of POE in 6503 is eh, it's a valid tool but it's also an easy fallback for not having a case, and I don't get why alyssa gets indicted for "arguing against the nolim" in 6516 when I feel like by any measure we'd be in an objectively better position if there had been an elimination. I know this is day 4 stuff but it still struck me as worth revisiting. The reasons for alyssa being scum today are...the EOD1 wagons, I guess (6987, 7031)? Both skitter and Datisi have been pushing these shallow wagonomics theories which I hate because I think wagonomics is bunk and the reasoning for it seems entirely arbitrary to me. There's also the idea that alyssa is scum for pushing her (7028), which really just does nothing for me. The arg about the sequence on enchant (7115) feels like a stretch, and the bit about staying in the background (7190) also just feels entirely like a playstyle based thing, given that in holiday dance party she stayed in the background for a big part of the game (I townread he there for it, but that was because in a dance game scum need to try to position themselves to survive). Like, it's not impossible scum

can

play in the background but someone playing that way doesn't necessarily make them scum. To me the whole case is a big bag of non-arguments and I'm not sure where the confidence is coming from at all.

[catboi]

I'm going to try to read back on day 3 and see if anything stands out with the benefit of hindsight

[catboi]

give my enemies the good news, time flew

vote count 2.5 !

Menalque (4):

catboi, Datisi, Andante, Kaiji

Kaiji (1):

Mare

SirCakez (1):

Menalque

catboi (1):

skitter30

Alyssa The Lamb (1):

Alyssa The Lamb

not voting (3):

Something_Smart, midwaybear, SirCakez

11 are alive, and it takes 6 votes to posthumously nominate someone for the rock and roll hall of fame. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-01-18 15:10:00)

other ideas

• did you know that skitter30 is vla on fridays and saturdays?
  
• yes? well did you know that datisi is vla on tuesdays and thursdays?
  
• one last thing: sircakez is vla through the 16th

thank you for mending me babies

vote count 2.6 !

SirCakez (3):

Menalque, skitter30, Kaiji

midwaybear (3):

Datisi, Mare, Alyssa The Lamb

Menalque (2):

Andante, catboi

Something_Smart (1):

midwaybear

not voting (2):

Something_Smart, SirCakez

11 are alive, and it takes 6 votes to posthumously nominate someone for the rock and roll hall of fame. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-01-18 15:10:00)

other ideas

• did you know that skitter30 is vla on fridays and saturdays?
  
• yes? well did you know that datisi is vla on tuesdays and thursdays?

your hand inside mine, mine

vote count 2.7 !

SirCakez (6):

Menalque, skitter30, Mare, Datisi, Alyssa The Lamb, Kaiji

Menalque (2):

Andante, catboi

Something_Smart (1):

midwaybear

not voting (2):

Something_Smart, SirCakez

11 are alive, and it took 6 votes to posthumously nominate someone for the rock and roll hall of fame

other ideas

• did you know that skitter30 is vla on fridays and saturdays?
  
• yes? well did you know that datisi is vla on tuesdays and thursdays?

went in the mod iso and picked this up instead

[catboi]

The way cakez approached the game comes from a town cakez mindset - where I believe he is evaluating things in the start and just stops playing once there are too many posts.

how is this different than scum-him who never got caught up?

VOTE: cakez

@kaiji i read a bit furhter, including your convo with catboi, i still want an answer to the above question

The way cakez approached the game comes from a town cakez mindset - where I believe he is evaluating things in the start and just stops playing once there are too many posts.

how is this different than scum-him who never got caught up?

I actually dont have an answer for this - it isn't. And I'll honor a more thorough read for ya though.
What makes you sure they *can't* be town? And who would they be scum with here?

i townread too many people but don't townread him, and we're at the point where 'eh well maybe this *could* be town him' isn't good enuf

i don't know who his partners would be, but there's honestly very few (if any) people i would rule out

and i've been wanting to vote him for a while, been waiting for him to come off of vla
and plz answer 4011

menalque gets pushed to E-2 on kaiji's replace in and skitter starts pushing cakez as a counterwagon

[catboi]

Hm

I think my PoE from before is still fine

VOTE: SirCakez

I think midwaybear is the most likely scum out of the more "active" players

[catboi]

the dumbass part of my brain goes "what if this is all scum theater between skitter and alyssa" because to some extent distancing in this scenario is the expected play and the last time I was in this spot that was what happened and I let myself get fooled by it, but at the same time I feel like tehy'd just take advantage of kaiji voting me if that were the case. So probably not. But if there's a spot in the game you should be looking at wagonomics, it's absolutely the end of day 2, and not day 1, seeing as we had a wagon on confirmed scum that fizzled and gave way to town counterwagons

[catboi]

I kinda want to reread Datisi because I had the lurking feeling he's been doing sweet fuckall aside from insisting that he should be town because of taking the same number as pooky but it feels like

if

they were gambiting, it makes no sense for menalque to have been shielded as hard as he was and the more plausible explanation is that scum were afraid of him getting cleared off the flip and didn't want it to happen

otherwise there's no reason it was so hard to flip a 1shot vig who had already fired and who wasn't playing the game

[catboi]

cuz i have something town-ish that i can point to for the slot (i.e. pooky), and i don't have that for cakez

mrr

[catboi]

on the other hand if skitter is scum i'm not sure she unvotes the midwaybear flashwagon that shows up on page 163 give menalque showed up an hour later and could have quickhammered it

[catboi]

there's more baitlims in this game than there are available misflips so i'm not super enthused by that strategy
tbh your slot is one of them too ...

yah, I was kind of half figuring that my flip might be one of the ones that would prompt re-eval

re: voting on catboi/cakez. skitt I was barely making it to thread last week, I didn't know the exact wagons. I'm only here now because no students turned up during my last 1.5hrs and so I can be here for a bit while avoiding lesson planning

would you be interested in doing catboi now ?

this doesn't feel scum/scum either, at least not within my typical expectation of how menalque plays scum

[catboi]

I still really don't like the way kaiji played the end of day 2

[catboi]

I don't like Pooky's entrance so dumping my vote on his slot until further notice VOTE: Menalque

I don't like Pooky's entrance so dumping my vote on his slot until further notice VOTE: Menalque

What about it didn't you like

everytime pooky makes jokes about how he's scum it makes me feel a fire in my veins that makes me want to eliminate him at any cost because i have never seen him do so as town.

aight -

I have a rough PoE coming::


I like:
Datisi, Andante, Flow Trap slot Cakez

I am mostly neutral on: Mare, Skitter, midwaybear

*raises eyebrows* : catboi, something_smart

my veins burn: mena

glancing at midway's ISO I don't exactly feel town vibes from him so I am not going to get in the way of this wagon.

I think scum midway spews mare and flow town here and possibly cakez scum

I want to commit to one of mena/midway/cakez here - but none of them scream scum to me other than pooky's posts which i could easily be clowning myself on.

i'm like 99% sure andante is town here and midway voting there feels like a lolvote to antispew because theyre locked into being in the awkward position of a claimed doc.

cakez as far as im concerned if theyre hanging on the low of the PoE they aren't going to be useful as town anyways due to their habits of never catching up late game so I'm thinking of trusting this PoE and consolidating here: VOTE: Cakez

midway / cakez / SS could be a team based on what i've read so far and assuming midway flips red, but that feels too simple/easy

This aged well lol

do you consider midway to be clear?

eh i can see town andante assuming that
VOTE: SS

ok

like

i did a little research

Search for "something_smart" in midway's ISO and look how nice and friendly midway interacts with SS


midway just spewed himself and SS as scum

frankly doesnt matter which order we do it in but ye


that 180 flip is a distance and we know ittttttttt

the progression here is super fucked, goes from voting mena for almost nothing to aggressively fighting for counterwagons and backing down for really weak reasoning "i could easily be clowning myself", there's no further investigation of pooky/mena's posts or anything, but I don't buy the turnaround from "my veins burn" to making excuses and pushing town CWslike it doesn't remotely feel like there was real consideration given to the content of mena's posts at any point in time

[catboi]

This is probably kaiji's towngame

At the very least if the vig is scum he absolutely isnt

This is...points for intellectual consistency, I guess, but I still don't get skitter's argument for not-vig = town

[catboi]

Mare/Menalque are the lazy way out kills that will have to be sorted somehow eventually but it gives us borderline nothing to kill today

just realized this looks weird

we get basically nothing from flipping either of them

[catboi]

I also remembered that a specific point is that I don't like the push to label the vig as a scum vig -> I have a specific read on who the vig is and it is very much in line with a likely person able to have it and use it in the way they did as town.

No one nightkills IV on N1. That's not a solve heavy slot.

There's just a lot of icky things I feel from skitter slot and its subtle, which - kudos to their scumplay to not being overt - but I feel that when analyzing what I feel reality is - it crashes down around her.


I'm keeping my vote strictly between Midway/SS today.

and this whole line of thought of "I know who the vig is" line doesn't feel like a real thought to me of someone who recently replaced in and isn't familiar with the gamestate, it reads more like an attempt to try to appear uninformed by proposing a theory that's wrong and I absolutely feel like Kaiji would try to brute force that sort of townslip

[catboi]

my thought process was consistent f u

then explain it

[catboi]

don't pull your fucking tough guy routine about how you're going to interrogate everyone on their progressions if you're not willing to answer to scrutiny yourself

[catboi]

you look and only see what u want to see its ok we can win the next one.

[Unv][/unv]

I was putting up a charade to see how skitter spews thinking shes clear but shes deadset on alyssa as her push.

what

[catboi]

It just occurred to me that if catboi is scum he is probably vengeful.

LMAO

how does that make any sense at all

[catboi]

and so the assumption is what, if I do get voted I get to vengekill someone and mena gets outed anyway? That's idiotic.


This is to ignore the fact that I very obviously wouldn't take venge

because I don't usually get eliminated as scum

[catboi]

and so the assumption is what, if I do get voted I get to vengekill someone and mena gets outed anyway? That's idiotic.

the assumption is that you get voted and the game goes straight to melo and then Mena fakes a guilty on Dats or someone else in the vig PoE for the win. It does not sound idiotic to me. (Or at the very least, it's less idiotic than you flipping goon and scum still needing another mislim and Mena needing to make up results that don't immediately get him killed.)

Do you realize that it would look absolutely terrible to have a claimed cop surviving overnight? And that if that were

the plan

for some reason, I'd just immediately roll over and let myself die rather than fighting back? This is just an incredibly farfetched scenario

Like, aren't you supposed to be

good

with mechanics?

[catboi]

Both skitter and Datisi have been pushing these shallow wagonomics theories which I hate because I think wagonomics is bunk

Dont think its bunk, it works p well as a tool ime if u know how to read it

I just dont really see a lot of games with a big eod scramble where *none* of the people involved are scum

It doesn't feel like a scramble though, at least not as much as the end of day 2 does - people just stacked up on the wagons we'd been stuck on mostly all day

and do you have any sort of thoughts on the vote movement stuff from Day 2 I brought up since we had a wagon on confirmed scum that fell apart?

[catboi]

i need to go but i am uncertain why you're saying "catboi and mena aren't aligned because catboi started the mena wagon" when mena was being less than useless and we all know how catboi acts towards his scumbuddies

same argument for the guilty, was mena ever really winning that

i'll revisit this sequence of events later today, i gotta run now, but by this cursory glance, i am Not A Fan

like, why did mena claim to have cleared you when it was clear from reading his iso for 15 seconds that he didn't have a clear on you

he was meant to die there

how is nobody talking about this

okay there's a few major problems here and tha is that I would have absolutely no idea how a guilty claim would be received, because

most of the time

, people vote the guilty, not the one claiming the guilty. I

definitely

could not have predicted "town paralyzes itself into indecision and we go to deadline without an elimination". secondly, why would I tell my teammate to take a dive for me

when that makes me look so much worse

? Thirdly, why go through that shit at all, when I could just...

not

, and leave myself flexible rather than forcing a 1v1 between scum? That's just an absurd amount of unnecessary attention drawn to myself that I absolutely would be avoiding and I feel like you should know this

[catboi]

Do you realize that it would look absolutely terrible to have a claimed cop surviving overnight? And that if that were the plan for some reason, I'd just immediately roll over and let myself die rather than fighting back? This is just an incredibly farfetched scenario

Like, aren't you supposed to be good with mechanics?

Do you understand what I'm arguing? I'm saying that IF you/Mena were both scum, then probably you are the vengeful. I'm not making any claim about the likelihood of you being scum (in fact, I think this makes you less likely to be scum because you are right that you are unlikely to draft vengeful). I agree with you on this, and on the previous point you made; if it's not melo, the cop being allowed to survive would indeed make no sense. If it is melo, it would be more reasonable for that slot to be left alive because it makes some sense as a scum target. That's why I doubt that you would be scum except if you were a vengeful.

Another way to rephrase the claim I'm making is that I don't think you're a goon. Does that make more sense? (Amusingly, a literal interpretation of your objection would imply that you are claiming you

are

a goon. But of course I assume you are objecting to the hypothetical, or just misunderstanding me completely.)

Yes I think the hypothetical is borderline nonsensical an doesn't make sense for you to be talking about here

[catboi]

I'm leaning back towards Datisi being just scum again

Ya maybe he is
But then he decided to collide with pooky and pick multitasking for the lolz

weren't you just arguing that s_s would intentionally collide?

[catboi]

If you expect me to be doing anything other than considering weird hypotheticals at a critical point in the game I've got bad news for you

I don't think it's borderline nonsense, it is reasonable to consider you as potential scum here, and I do think that out of all the catboi-scum scenarios that one is closest to making sense.

That sounds like you're stretching to justify a read you know is bad

[catboi]

I feel like you should know this

how does mena taking a dive for you make you look *worse*? and i am not aware since when should i be aware of you not doing theatre with buddies and not bussing them into the ground, that's news to me

because if a teammate just rolls over and dies it's way more obviously a bus

but I don't even know how you can argue that it was intentional when Enchant was very clearly trying and very naerly got me yeeted (the game has been going on long enough that I actually forgot about Enchant for a minute)

like yes lolcatboivotedscummusthavebussed but I absolutely

hate

when teammates try to unnecessarily distance from me and mena was clearly trying to get me killed even before he fakeclaimed, I do not have the spotlight put on me unnecesssarily

[catboi]

What, you being town?

I thought you had me in your most likely scumteam?

[catboi]

sorry

[catboi]

well this is about more in line with what I was expecting

[catboi]

(If anyone would like to know what I read on flow feel free to peruse Purgatory and draw your own conclusions)

can we get a rehash of what those conclusions were - i was in this game myself

I'm pretty sure I already went over this but in short - flow as both alignments starts off heavy on the spam and filler but as town eventually they shift into something more serious and actually start solcing where as scum they just kind of don't, they'll give token reads without much behind them but mostly just keep shitposting

[catboi]

was typing up a reply but got distracted by other stuff

[catboi]

not gonna have time to get to this tonight will answer tomorrow

[catboi]

(If anyone would like to know what I read on flow feel free to peruse Purgatory and draw your own conclusions)

can we get a rehash of what those conclusions were - i was in this game myself

I'm pretty sure I already went over this but in short - flow as both alignments starts off heavy on the spam and filler but as town eventually they shift into something more serious and actually start solcing where as scum they just kind of don't, they'll give token reads without much behind them but mostly just keep shitposting

Oh hey! The latter is what they were doing in this game!

yeahhh but the thing is they were onlyin the game for a few days realtime and then vanished so I'm not really sure it's all that meaningful

[catboi]

Alright

Are we all about ready to end the day

I'm still writing a response to kaiji

[catboi]

when looking back to d1 - catboi is fairly wishy washy and is not solving at all *even on d1* and you know who calls this out? Faker does. Faker gets on his ass near EoD1 and pushes catboi to do *something* and threatens to push catboi if they sit on their ass.

you know who died n1?

Faker.

The death isn't conclusive evidence - but its a flipped town voice that was against catboi early on.

Okay, first of all, Faker expressed dissatisfaction with me being an unmotivated mope, which he has done before in games. At the time I had been having a

really

fucking bad run of games and had zero confidence whatsoever, faker knew this

if you were

actually reading the game

you would see that the following sequence doesn't translate to an explicit scum read so much as a "get off your ass and play" threat, so framing it as a scumread is really fucking disingenuous:

For clarity, what would make me "the best vote available"?

Scumread, default vote in lieu of absence of read (ex. my earlier), compromise vote over TR, etc.

Don't get your confusion here.

God this owns this man is about to take the most direct I can possibly be and go but THAT'S WHY IT'S BAD FAITH and I am so here for it

No, I expect nothing of you you absolute waste of oxygen and perpetual town hammerer, so play with your claws out

Further, this is really fucking gross to even say, but I wouldn't kill Faker night 1 in this game as scum. Faker is my friend. I have known him for 11 years now. I enjoy playing games with him. The past handful of times I've tried playing with him, he's ended up replacing out day 1 and we never got to play together properly. Several times prior to that, I died night 1 every time I played with him. I think we've had literally one game where we got to play Day 2 together. I wouldn't have killed him right away here, even if I felt like he was going to try to bury me on day 2. I'd rather challenge myself, and I think I'd have been able to give him the slip, seeing as I've done it before. And before someone goes crying to the mods about this: I'm not saying I'd

never

nightkill Faker. I'm not saying I'd never nightkill Faker

on Night 1

. I'm saying that

in this game

I wouldn't have nightkilled Faker.

---

that alongside the general vibes of the guilty being .. very stilted and awkward in terms of how quiet both sides were solidify this for me.

bullshit point given menalque outright flaked from the game after he posted, unless you want to argue my master plan was to have him replace out so people would vote him. You know that everyone was waiting around for him to clarify if the claim was real, and then enchant certainly was actually trying, so this is revisionist history

catboi coming into today not knowing what to do and reverting to their basic scumread of me is also cause for concern to me.

Not knowing what to do is

normal

because I am town and am therefore uninformed as to who the mafia are. I have to figure things out myself, and I am not great at that. I get anxious about being wrong. I hate endgames as town. As scum it's much easier to just pick a target and go after them, I can figure out who will probably get voted But I did not "revert" to my scumread of you - I went back, looked at the evidence, and found stuff by you that I felt was scummy and you were unable to give adequate answers for. If the evidence pointed me in a different direction I would have gone that way.

So let me level here. I think you are scum who is trying to get me eliminated. I am probably going to lose to you, because literally no one else in the game thinks you are scum. I've made my pieace with that. If I'm being a dumb baby and have misread you again then I will accept looking like a clown for it. At the end of the day that's all there is to it.

[catboi]

Ok so like 2 days left ...

I assume we're just letting it no-elim at this point.

[catboi]

I should say the me/faker dynamic is not dissimilar to Mini Normal 2181, another game where my head wasn't in the game and we wound up in a huge shitfight on day 1. Ironically there I was inative because I was foolishly multitabled and scum in a

different

game which I was prioritizing, leading me to fall behind on that game

[catboi]

Andante: town
skitter30: null
midwaybear: probably town
Mare: lean town
innocentvillager: town
SirCakez: lean scum
Faker: sheepishly admitting he's town
catboi - nya
Menalque: scumlean from pooky, willing to give him time to get into the game
Datisi: lean town
northsidegal: probably town, under the impression she's fairly polarized and think posting is all right so far
Sleepless Assassin: null
flow trap: scum
Something_Smart: null

In draft order because that's more fun

I guess if the wagons are unsatisfying I'd entertain a vote on something_smart, or if I were feeling particularly spicy, skitter

hol up! rewind time!

catboi - please explain how you reached each and every one of these reads.

yes you may reference the textbook(the thread) for your answers - but you must explain your answers in your own words!

I think you realize that asing me to recall the thoughts I had over a month ago is a big ask when I play primarily off instinct but I'll do this shit anyway because I'm feeling feisty

Andante: felt she had shown depth of thought that she doesn't typically display as scum, had attempted actual analysis rather than vague pushes and overall enthusiasm level was high, wasn't playing reactively
skitter: had some misgivings about her at the time based on her approach toward me but wasn't confident in it at all, was probably going to take a wait and see approach with her
midwaybear: I've seen him as scum (fate grand order) and this didn't look like it, he's super stilted and awkward as scum, in the games I've played with him since I've always gotten him as town very quickly off his opener
Mare: felt like the neighborizer claim in combination with draft placement was likely town
innocentvillager: was top posting and enthusiastic in a way he isn't as scum
cakez: had just seemed to be limply going through the motions, was accusing me of being scum but didn't seem to really care about pushing it at all
faker: played with him a ton, usually get a townread on him fast but I had misread him recently in a newbie game I was spectating so I was a bit more cautious, but his overall demeanor where he was loose and having fun is way more likely for town him. I suck at explaining my read on Faker. Could probably dig up posts but I don't actually care to now, would be easy to fakeanyway
menalque: I felt like pooky had never really gotten into the game, had liked him pressuring skitter but he didn't seem to follow it up or get engaged at all and I didn't think the way he responded to being pressured byFaker was towny
datisi: I liked his early posts, I always like his early game but I think in particular the way he was paranoid of IV and we'd melded a few times on votes
nsg: what I said at the time, I thought her early contributions were good and she's lurky as scum from what I've heard. read diminished as she tailed off in the game and she had been kind of singularly focuseed on sleepless
sleepless: hadn't posted enough to get a read on
flow trap: I had been waiting for him to contribute something of substance and he hadn't which I felt was likely to be scum-indictive for him
something_smart: is hard to read because he usually gives very little, had liked when he had done with the draft analysis a bit but that was it

[catboi]

Catboi ig id kaiji is scum here the bit that i cant get over is that they looked very, very, very uninformed for where the vig was when they repped on, in a way that i think makes more sense coming from town than scum ... what do u think abt my theory there?

I don't know, I guess I have trouble understanding why that can't be faked ior how town would actually get confused about the spot in the draft order they were replacing

[catboi]

atp I feel like whoeer dies will be informative

[catboi]

plus if we need to get everyone on the same page to vote out mafia i don't think that happens

[catboi]

why's datisi avoiding the thread

[catboi]

bc i don't have anything to say lol

there are people voting each other and you have no comment?

[catboi]

Fine, but i'm noting that i rather dislike how you're going abt this @kaiji

VOTE: alyssa

And catboi tbf neither do u apparently

I don't feel great about this if that isn't obvious

[catboi]

maybe i'm being dumb

VOTE: skitter

[catboi]

sorry <3

I don't think we ever win against this town if it's motivated and there was a lot of unfortunate stuff that happened that I didn't really have control over

[catboi]

Should have stuck to my guns that 21 was scummy, i suppose

Anyways gg scum, although i think town lost this more than you won it (no offense)

Nah I know I didn't play great, no offense taken. (I think S_S did well for what he needed to do though)

I'm pretty sure you can find posts from multiple townies who had the correct POE in this game

[catboi]

Huh i think you should have gone for ac

And yeah same ... i kinda decided at some point that if this is a loss its not in my hands anymore. I dont think i could have tried more than i did, but when like 2/3 of town is not playing (in all incarnatjons of it), at some point there's just not much i can do, and like i really cant tell the difference betweeen unmotivated cats dats ss and alyssa in elo, i just cant

~

Catboi ig are you actually that burnt out or was that an act

And what *was* mena thinking ...

It was an act for the most part.

I had fun, I really did. I'm sorry this wasn't great for you all but it was an incredible challenge on my end and I wanted to see if we could pull it off. I was struggling for sure, I fee like I got a bit exposed in this game but that's something to work on. I feel like I've never really been able to post well in big games. Just played up the fatigue as AtE. (I do have, like, zero capacity for playing town right now though)

the menalque claim was a hail mary play because town was vig hunting, we were beginning to feel boxed in, and I wasn't sure we'd be able to get the flips necessary to win. S_S and I both suggested the plan and he went with it.