Mini 1543--Natirasha's On Parole!(Game Over)

[Guyett]

Opinions on 4009?

but i dunno why those three votecounts specifically made you doubt your read on nacho

It looks a day chat organised attempt to push through an easy deadline lynch

[zMuffinMan]

maybe, but all the alternative wagons at the time were on town, so i don't know why they'd be worried enough that they thought they'd need to co-ordinate that

i think there are legitimate issues to be had with nacho's read progressions in this game, but i don't think that's one of them

[Guyett]

just vote for him, if selkies hammers gg selkies but if not we have a cleared person in mylo

[zMuffinMan]

a cleared person in mylo means very little unless people were considering a lynch on them

especially given if we don't lynch today, it's entirely up to scum whether or not they want to take a happily ever after

[zMuffinMan]

Seriously, The Dark Age of the Law ran from start to end in like half the length of this game wtf

Dark Age of the Law was run by a better mod, obv

[Selkies]

a cleared person in mylo means very little unless people were considering a lynch on them

especially given if we don't lynch today, it's entirely up to scum whether or not they want to take a happily ever after

I'm not following your first sentence at all.

[Nachomamma8]

So to be clear: the reason you think I'm being so erratic and so absolutely batshit this game is because you think I was trying to imitate my town meta?

i think you're trying to imitate some idea of your town meta that you have, yes. i think you think that "erratic play" is something that you'd do as "troll mode town" but there are off notes that don't look town, which is why i think it's a poor imitation

You've never even attempted to explain the differences, have you?

[Nachomamma8]

And you think that the way I was choosing to beat ffery, and am so confident in beating ffery (who I always worry about, and you know this) by bringing her to LyLo, is by not giving a shit about forming any valid thought processes/any trajectory whatsoever?

you know ffery is a meta-heavy player, though. if she's never seen play like this come from scum-you, yes, i think you thought this was a valid strategy - the lack of cohesive thoughts means there's nothing to peg you on because you aren't giving any sort of read progression, any reasons for your reads, or reasons for how they change, etc etc - it's the same thing i've considered doing in a game (and likely will do in a game at some point) as scum because it's something so off from how i normally play scum (but i need to draw scum in the right player list for it to work)

Do you think a player list where ffery is considered scummy and thus doesn't have the sway she normally has + a lot of people are unfamiliar with my play is the right player list? I don't.

[Nachomamma8]

also while i'm at it, you being scum with a nurse in this game means you knew it was likely town had a doc, which explains why you weren't shooting obvious targets this game, instead going after people who were unlikely to be protected

I always assume protective roles. I don't expect you to know that, so w/e.

[Nachomamma8]

i also wasn't suggesting it must be the case, but from a setup spec point of view, it is the only thing that makes sense. and i already explained why the counter to that (2-town-1-scum) in a normal game is less sensible

Yeah, but your reasoning there is still pretty shot.
Maybe I haven't seen a neighborhood played right, but I still haven't seen the masonry neighborhood that you speak of: you bring up Cash Cabd, but that was ffery and I who both had pretty high levels of mutual readability at that point AND hydra'ed together and were pretty intimate with each other's thought processes: that's not the kind of thing you assume will happen with two random people.

[Nachomamma8]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p5802447]post 3993[/url], zMuffinMan"][quote="nacho"]You show you clearly care about the game, based on how adamantly you defended yourself yesterday and how much effort you put into the game then, but you never for a moment lifted one finger in order to defend notscience, your townread, and you never once expressed doubt about him like you thought he was scum. As scum, you know defending him will be sort of futile, and can be used as ammunition against you for trying to end the game early, so you sitting there not defending him despite him being a townread is probably the best solution: switching to scumreading him doesn't offer you any cred.[/quote]
first, the idea that i must defend my town-reads to the death is absolutely stupid; i only defend people to the death if i'm 99.999% sure i'm right about them being town, and even then, if they don't give enough of a shit about the game to defend themselves, i generally don't go out of my way to do this (i'm pretty sure if i sift through my town games i can find similar examples of this thought process in action if you don't believe it). though saying i didn't defend him is a load of shit, given i did put forth arguments for why i thought he could be town

second, i'm never so attached to a scum buddy that i think i need to defend them like that - i would never have brought up the thing i thought was a town slip in the first place as scum with notscience, because i wouldn't have wanted to be forced into a situation where i had to defend a buddy, and i wouldn't have bothered defending a buddy who was practically dead in the water. it's simply not how i play scum. for any other person, you might have a valid argument, but you know this isn't how i play scum. unless your argument here is LOLWIFOM you'd do it because you wouldn't do it, in which case you're just stretching now to find shit that suits your predetermined read
[/quote]
I would personally be happy with you linking the games you have in mind, sure.

As for defending them like that - defending him like what? You said you thought he scum slipped, and then you stopped defending him.i know I might be crazy for thinking this, but in that particular scenario you had absolutely no need to defend him (you didn't have to and you didn't): I figure it was something you picked up on and decided to bring up because who the hell doesn't bring up their partner's townslip when it's chilling in thread.

[Nachomamma8]

like, seriously, if you're going to claim that goodfather's stuff re: neighbourhood is faked and therefore he was faking it, quote him

You quoted him for me.

He said "my understanding of neighborhoods is that one of you are scum". This doesn't assume neighborizer.
Then, he says "are one of you a neighborizer?". This doesn't make sense considering it wasn't yet night 3.
The inconsistencies are so blatant they sort of obviously scream bullshit: if he was trying to spread paranoia, why not just push the one scum in the neighborhood line and leave it at that?

[Nachomamma8]

and I'm saying that the way a neighborhood is started/originates has a huge impact on whether mutual town reads can be established

it really doesn't, though

as long as you can get past the paranoia of "omg 3-man neighbourhood, must be 1 scum in it" and form reads in it while discussing the game, it's really no different to someone being a neighbouriser and neighbourising their town reads (assuming it really is an all-town neighbourhood). in both scenarios, there's possibly scum, and in both scenarios, no one can be sure of the other players' alignments, but they can still be a powerful force

key thing i was asking about here is whether you know of nati's opinion on this - i don't care to delve into theory any further

"forming townreads on random people is the same as neighborizing townreads"
No, Muffin.
No.

[Nachomamma8]

Would scum Nacho have kept me alive after this yesterday?

VOTE: nacho

I wouldn't have.
You'll stay alive if we no lynch again as well.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho should be after ik on that vc.
Ik pushes aronis to l-1
Ross gives out that the vote wasnt announced as l-1
Nacho naked votes aronis to push him to l-1 without announcing it.
to me this looks like a coordinated attempt to get aronis lynched organised from scum day chat.

I can't remember the last time I've announced an L-1.

[Nachomamma8]

Would scum Nacho have kept me alive after this yesterday?

from a practical standpoint, there is little difference between keeping you alive with 4 alive, 3 to lynch and killing you to make it 3 alive, 2 to lynch - except that the former doesn't incriminate him in any way (which is probably something he'd be wary of after 169, as much as he suggests he could talk it off)

that is assuming it was a conscious choice and not just a failure to submit an action (which is entirely possible given nacho's recent activity issues)

Either way, I have to convince Selkies to trust me yet again as scum, except this time in a LyLo situation. Do you think that I want to convince them for a moment and just a moment? Or do you think I want to have her stuck solidly in my town camp and then convince Guyett (whose scum suspects yesterday were Selkies and I and not you) to hammer you as well?

There's only one decision scum-Nacho makes in this situation.

[Nachomamma8]

I find it a bit odd that despite being so sure that nacho is scum you haven't voted for him...

He's not voting me because he wants to troll hammer me.

[Guyett]

I find it a bit odd that despite being so sure that nacho is scum you haven't voted for him...

He's not voting me because he wants to troll hammer me.

Actually I checkef games with him and me in lylo and he was cautious there too

[zMuffinMan]

@ffery

well, you're almost certainly not getting lynched today so confirming you doesn't do much of anything

i mean, if it really bothers you i can vote nacho, confirm you, then unvote and carry on as planned

but since it doesn't _actually_ make any real difference, *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

You've never even attempted to explain the differences, have you?

i've been talking about why i think the differences are for a while now

mainly read progressions not making sense

where even if you're "troll mode" or whatever you want to call it, it doesn't explain things

I would personally be happy with you linking the games you have in mind, sure.

it will have to wait til after work, then. i'm out the door in 5 mins

He said "my understanding of neighborhoods is that one of you are scum". This doesn't assume neighborizer.
Then, he says "are one of you a neighborizer?". This doesn't make sense considering it wasn't yet night 3.

i have no idea what you're on about now, but given your argument was "he didn't know what a neighbourhood was" originally, i'm assuming it's now changed to something else?

i keep reading these two lines and trying to make sense of it but i can't


also don't know why you keep bringing up my theory talk about the neighbourhood when i made it pretty clear i was asking solely to see if anyone knew nati's opinion on it

[Nachomamma8]

What game are you comparing this with?

[Nachomamma8]

My argument was not "he didn't know what a neighborhood was" originally. It was that he pretended he didn't know what one was, which he has no reason to fake unless there was scum in the neighborhood. Remember?

[Nachomamma8]

I think I probably would have had doubts on you by now if it wasn't for that, tbh.

[Guyett]

What game are you comparing this with?

2many heads

[Nachomamma8]

That's not the best comparison: I was a cop and I was obviously going to be extraordinarily aggressive.