In post 4168, pieguyn wrote:also, I'm still not sure what your actual reason for scum reading mhsmith at this point is and your recent posts directed to him have been as nitpick-y as your posts directed to me, so I'd like if you could run me through it again.
It's a culmination of things. Not sure how to come out an explain it but we can talk about specific parts if you want
I don't think I'm being "nitpicky" I think this is a unique setup that allows for some interesting scumhunting
first off, you have tried to push me for "making up reasons to lynch other people without outright defending mhsmith". thing with this is, I think I've documented the reasoning behind my scum reads on Jester and Parama pretty well in-thread - I've wanted to lynch Jester for forever, and after S_S' flip, I've covered that I think Parama's pushes this game have all been forced. if you think I'm making up either of these reads then you should be able to argue the point - point out what in my reasoning looks "made up" and try to probe me for more info if you think I haven't explained it well enough.
also, about my read on mhsmith, I told you in a post specifically directed to you that it's obvious why I have reason to question the read on him if you look at his posts at the end of D1, and you didn't give any response to it. the only thing you even mentioned that was related to this was that you didn't think our interaction was a town tell either way, but again, you don't point out what in my approach looks "made up" or why it's unreasonable for town-me to want to lay off of him for a bit even if I'm not 100% on him being town - the way I approached it was perfectly reasonable and if you were to attempt to bullshit a reason for it being made up you'd look like obvscum, so ignoring it is really your only option if you want to spin the way I'm approaching mhsmith as disingenuous.
instead of attempting to engage me on either of these points, you attempt to nitpick and push over things like pairs not interacting with each other, the fact that I had previously agreed with your mhsmith read (... duh, my read on him is in flux now so obviously I no longer agree with your read), calling my push effectively an OMGUS - and before you ask, no, this is not a scum tell and I think you're a smart enough player to realize that I take issue with the reasoning and behavior with which you're going about the read on me, not just "ur pushing me, ur scum". I've pointed this out, too, the point about OMGUS in particular, and nothing.
second, I've asked you multiple times why it's so problematic for you that I want to lynch Jester's pair and Parama's pair if you had scum reads on them yourself, nothing - this seems like a fairly noticeable contradiction in the mindset with which you're approaching this and I'd still like an answer to it.
ignoring me is not an option.
I don't care about convincing you, I care because I think your thought process is fake and I think you're continuing to ignore me because you don't know how to answer for all of this in a way that doesn't make you look like obvscum.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:49 pm
by pieguyn
In post 4171, inspectorscout wrote:'Theyre doing the same but I expressed a townread on one of them so I call one of them scummy lazy and the other one just lazy'
This is again you wanting to keep a more consistent thought progression.
no, I just think you're bad at the game.
Dunn on the other hand should know better.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:08 pm
by Dunnstral
Then vote me. I don't know what you want me to say. I disagree.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:08 pm
by MiniDeathStar
Spoiler:
In post 3939, mhsmith0 wrote:@MDS: Since you're relatively new, I'll just note this: when wagons start getting big, and majority starts getting close, that's when shit starts getting real, and you really see what people think. That's why you don't ever suicide pre-LYLO in a game like this.
I'm just really scared of being the fallback lynch during LYLO and losing the game, just because so many people think we're a scum couple.
Because I think me being alive is hindering the town right now. Not helping.
In post 3958, pieguyn wrote:thing with this game is *if* I'm wrong and Jester is town, and if I'm even half right on who the remaining scum are, it's practically insta-loss.
my intuition tells me what's going on here is that Jester is a mislynch and scum are hoping to take advantage of it to solidify their position.
unvote:
I need some time to think; I might actually decide on a Parama lynch over a Jester lynch, depending on how I feel later.
It's only instaloss if we're the last pair to lynch instead of now. Assume we're both town, think about where the scum are, and vote there after we flip.
I mean seriously people, come on. The dancing votes on our wagon *clearly* suggest the mafia is saving us for later. Please stop playing by their whistle. We should not be the fallback lynch everyone is looking at right now.
I want you to look at what just happened. Lynch gets close, people start talking, someone gets cold feet. I don't know if pie is scum or town for it, but this is why you don't suicide. Stuff can happen. Nothing is inevitable. Remember this in future games, regardless of alignment.
Kind of what I'm afraid of?
In post 4021, Parama wrote:i mean, shadow was scummy as heck. i'm not going to take responsibility for how scummy he played. why should i?
Honestly, I don't think Shadow was *that* bad. He was scummy pre-dance but later on I realised he was mostly just angry at people and himself and didn't really care how he came off. His tone felt genuine. Then he adopted my attitude towards the game which I *know* is a town reaction. I mean, you yourself admitted there were posts of his that were town af. You only have yourself to blame. Just like Arthur.
Kind of hypocritical when you're doing the *exact* same thing to me. Where is *your* humility? Why am I scummy, Arthur? For the bigger part of this game I've been acting exactly like Shadow was acting. Shadow was town. Why am I scum?
Interestingly, you and inspector are the only ones here who think *I* am the scum and not Jester. Did you came up with that independently or did one persuade the other in your lover PT?
In post 4045, Dunnstral wrote:I'm not. I've said it before and I say it again: IF HS flips scum... Kagami is probably scum too
I don't think HS is flipping scum. If anyone is scum there, it's Parama.
In post 4058, Human Sequencer wrote:i don't think that's very nice of you to say. arthur and i are sharing this nice and tasty humble pie and it bleeds through in our attitude. do you have the same disdain for me as well?
Well... I kind of stopped liking you after you started bombarding me and Jester with ableist slurs? Does that count? But like, at least you're showing some emotion this game. Arthur just comes off as a giant dick.
In post 4072, Human Sequencer wrote:Jester was acting pretty scummy early on and has since completely disappeared from the game. MDS has done nothing but pop in and AtE all game. They really should have been lynched instead of Vedith/Gamma, if that happened we'd be in much better shape right now. Preferred wagon, probably.
Yes, Jester *was* acting pretty scummy and for a while I also thought he was scum. I changed my read later and explained why. As for me, if you think all I've been doing is AtE, that's probably because I only get noticed if I start shouting or crying. ISO me and see my reads. But yeah, I agree we should be the wagon. Btw Vedith suicided so we couldn't have been lynched *instead* of him.
In post 4074, Ser Arthur Dayne wrote:Idk why you gotta rub shadow town flip in my face like I was p certain he was scum at the time and I admit I was wrong now.
I'm sorry, Arthur, love you, and I'm sure you're a great guy outside of this game. I was just utterly fed up with your arrogance that had literally nothing to stand on, and I had just about enough of that attitude. I won't lie, I genuinely said those things to hurt you and I think I might actually have, which I wish I could take back now. Well... except you're kind of sweet when you're remorseful like this.
I think most of your scumread on me is because I AtE a lot and say "lynch me", correct? I don't really have an excuse for appealing to emotion, it's just my personality and I do it all the time as either alignment. But the "lynch me" is totally 100% genuine and not a yu gi oh scum trick. I do want to be lynched, like right now.
Also please don't insinuate I'm not doing any scum hunting. I gave my reads about 98954 times and got ignored. Seems like I just don't get noticed if I appeal to logic instead of emotion.
Caught up to page 164 now. Will do more later, sorry.
Jester was acting pretty scummy early on and has since completely disappeared from the game. MDS has done nothing but pop in and AtE all game. They really should have been lynched instead of Vedith/Gamma, if that happened we'd be in much better shape right now. Preferred wagon, probably.
Spoiler: Arthur/Inspector
I desperately need to look into Arthur closer instead of waving all of his posts off as obvtown. Some meta reading will probably help too. I think my interpretation of his personality might have been wrong, which has set my read off all game. You won't have my vote here until I do that analysis.
Spoiler: Funnstral/Kagami
Fringe case. It'll be for Kagami, if it is. So many people have read Kagami as scum and it makes me feel like I've probably given them a free pass much akin to how I may have to arthur. All along I've understood that their posts are objectively scummy (lol @ naked votes) but I feel like I can understand his logic even if he doesn't say it at times. Perhaps that's the plan, put in no details so some idiotic sequencer comes along and fills it in themselves. Beyond that, his posts just felt towny.
I still don't understand the smith scumreads at all even after re-evaluation.
Funnstral will push me now that I'm not voting myself, and he probably thinks it was a ploy to make myself look townier after the obvscum push I did yesterday. I understand that my actions have been objectively scummy, but all that happened is that I changed my mind after a sorely needed re-evaluation.
I still strongly believe that one of {parama, arthur} is scum. If it's not arthur, it's 100% Parama.
First part of your post looks fine. Second part looks like you're setting up for an Arthur vote. Who do you think is more likely scum between Parama and Arthur?
At that, why are you creating a false dichotomy?
+points for funnstral
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:17 pm
by Dunnstral
OK Mds: what are your thoughts? Who is scum? What about the people on your wagon?
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:28 pm
by Dunnstral
Hey, Mds, can you help me out?
Do you think pieguy's read on me makes sense?
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:25 pm
by pieguyn
In post 4178, Dunnstral wrote:Then vote me. I don't know what you want me to say. I disagree.
... are you being deliberately obtuse or are you actually serious?
I'll make it as straightforward as possible. answer the following questions:
- you keep saying I'm "making up reasons" to push people who aren't mhsmith. which reads/reasons have I made up and why do they come across as made-up?
- why do you find it so difficult to believe I'd want to back off of mhsmith and give him some room, after what happened at the end of D1? don't care if you don't think it was a town tell, I want to know why you find it so difficult to believe that *I* - or anyone else - would think it a good idea to give him room after that.
- what about my push on you is scummy? you're a smart enough player to realize "ur pushing me bc I called u scum" is not a valid reason for anything - I take issue with your read on me because your reasoning is reachy as all hell and you ignore me when I try to explain to you when my read is wrong, which is a fairly typical scum tactic, not because of the fact that you are pushing me and that's it.
- how on earth did you justify claiming it was scummy of me to want to lynch Jester and Parama before mhsmith, when at the time you posted that, *you also wanted to lynch both pairs*? don't care if you've backed off the Jester read now, the fact of the matter is at the point when you posted this angle you were OK with a Jester lynch and it makes no sense to complain that I'm "lining up lynches" when all the pairs I were pushing were pairs you AGREED were scum.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:26 pm
by pieguyn
*wasn't a town tell.
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:39 pm
by inspectorscout
funnstral just vote
remember we are lynching scum today
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:48 pm
by Dunnstral
In post 4183, pieguyn wrote:- you keep saying I'm "making up reasons" to push people who aren't mhsmith. which reads/reasons have I made up and why do they come across as made-up?
My thoughts don't all coexist together. If you're scum it's possible it's with kagami and 1 other and so your "made up" read is most likely the one you're pushing; jester
pieguyn wrote:
- why do you find it so difficult to believe I'd want to back off of mhsmith and give him some room, after what happened at the end of D1? don't care if you don't think it was a town tell, I want to know why you find it so difficult to believe that *I* - or anyone else - would think it a good idea to give him room after that.
Didn't you "give him room" overnight? I asked.
Not sure where you're going with this - are you saying you needed time to cool off? Okay I guess.
pieguyn wrote:
- what about my push on you is scummy? you're a smart enough player to realize "ur pushing me bc I called u scum" is not a valid reason for anything - I take issue with your read on me because your reasoning is reachy as all hell and you ignore me when I try to explain to you when my read is wrong, which is a fairly typical scum tactic, not because of the fact that you are pushing me and that's it.
You calling my reasoning reachy doesn't make it go away. I think What I've been putting forth has been valid
To start with, I began by asking you a question about the people on your wagon. You overreacted and acted like I was throwing shade/pushing on you and refused to answer me and then scumread me.
By the way, that's still valid to look at if you're town.
pieguyn wrote:
... are you being deliberately obtuse or are you actually serious?
hmm
pieguyn wrote:
- how on earth did you justify claiming it was scummy of me to want to lynch Jester and Parama before mhsmith, when at the time you posted that, *you also wanted to lynch both pairs*? don't care if you've backed off the Jester read now, the fact of the matter is at the point when you posted this angle you were OK with a Jester lynch and it makes no sense to complain that I'm "lining up lynches" when all the pairs I were pushing were pairs you AGREED were scum.
Here's the thing: you said you thought mhsmith was scum, but wanted to lynch shadow to "discuss a scum flip with kagami"
Well, he flipped town, and when I ask you about the discussing with kagami bit you start saying things like you're already in agreement anyway and also we shouldn't lynch your pair again
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:06 am
by pieguyn
In post 4186, Dunnstral wrote:To start with, I began by asking you a question about the people on your wagon. You overreacted and acted like I was throwing shade/pushing on you and refused to answer me and then scumread me.
By the way, that's still valid to look at if you're town.
are you seriously going to deny that you're pushing me? you continue to state, in no uncertain terms, "mhsmith/pie isn't town/town", you continue to inject yourself into interactions with people who claim that my pair is town/town, you outright said in 3905 before I even started to interact with you that you didn't like my entrance...
and I didn't answer your question at first because it was a stupid question, but even so, I did eventually answer it after you kept requesting me to answer it, so... what is your point here?
In post 4186, Dunnstral wrote:My thoughts don't all coexist together. If you're scum it's possible it's with kagami and 1 other and so your "made up" read is most likely the one you're pushing; jester
you are dodging the question. you claim it looks like I'm making up reads - what about my read on Jester looks made up to you?
you are basically saying I'm making up reads because I could be scum with Kagami. I hope I don't need to explain why this is a circular argument and I don't think you would be that obtuse to where you'd think this is actually a good line of reasoning. you can't just say "your reads look made up" and call it a day - if you want to say that my reads look made up, that is that I wouldn't have the reads that I have as town, you need to have an explanation for *why* I wouldn't have those reads as town or you have no ground to stand on.
In post 4186, Dunnstral wrote:Didn't you "give him room" overnight? I asked.
Not sure where you're going with this - are you saying you needed time to cool off? Okay I guess.
I'm saying that I think the way mhsmith interacted with me end of D1 is a town tell. with that in mind, why is it so surprising that at the current point in the game I'd prefer to leave him for later and lynch elsewhere (people I think are likely to actually flip scum)?
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:16 am
by pieguyn
In post 4186, Dunnstral wrote:Well, he flipped town, and when I ask you about the discussing with kagami bit you start saying things like you're already in agreement anyway and also we shouldn't lynch your pair again
I don't really know what you would have expected us to interact about at that point in the game. there was nothing we weren't in agreement on except for the read on HS, in which case 1. I feel really sure she's town and 2. we agree Parama needs to die at some point anyway, so there's no reason to think too hard about the HS read. I'm curious what she thinks of you in terms of your play, and if you'll notice I did ask her about it. if there are reads in the future that I think we should discuss for some reason or another, then yeah I'll discuss them with her.
if you're town I think your assumption of how we would interact with each other is off.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:21 am
by pieguyn
look at the way we interacted for the early parts of D1, for example - it isn't like active posting or that kind of active interaction, we've mostly just been measuring our reads against each other's and correcting each other when we feel the other is going off.
I'm not sure to what extent I believe you weren't aware of this, but w/e (this is another kind of angle that reads more like you're just attempting to invent reasons to push my slot, rather than thinking critically).
ask me anything you want and if i don't acknowledge you just ask me again
dunn wrote:Who do you think is more likely scum between Parama and Arthur?
i'm not sure
my gut and reads tell me parama, more objective analysis (competent conftownie reads) tells me sad
dunn wrote:At that, why are you creating a false dichotomy?
because it almost certainly isn't false, no way was there 0 scum pushing shadow, and i'm town. beyond that, they're both pushing each other pretty hard.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:48 am
by pieguyn
HS, what do you think about the pushes on my pair this game day? like, do you get a feeling of "you two are town/town and scum needs to force a lynch on you in any way possible" when you see it?
also if my choices were Parama and SAD, I'd lynch Parama in a heartbeat.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:53 am
by pieguyn
I think what's going on is Dunn and Parama are scum and Dunn is attempting to link you/Parama to my pair because "we've never interacted", in order to increase the chance of him being able to chain the lynch into us in some way or another.
if Jester's pair is the second town/town pair, god forbid, then that's pretty much all that is necessary because they're getting lynched unless something amazing happens. I need to look again for signs of SAD/scout being lined up for lynch in case I'm right about them being the other town/town pair, but I guess worst case even if there's nothing obvious they might just be trying to eke them out in 4p if it really came down to it (since scout seems to think SAD is scum for some god-knows-what reason).
then again, I suppose Parama is hard pushing SAD right now, so...
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:57 am
by Human Sequencer
In post 4191, pieguyn wrote:HS, what do you think about the pushes on my pair this game day? like, do you get a feeling of "you two are town/town and scum needs to force a lynch on you in any way possible" when you see it?
no, i read dunn as pretty town being a little overzealous, and scout as just a little shallow and also town. did i miss anything?
beyond that your pair has had some suspicion all game from all sides, including itself. scum doesn't need to fear that. i think i'm the only player who townreads both of you. on the other hand, i do think it's towny of you to overlook that.
chiaki wrote:also if my choices were Parama and SAD, I'd lynch Parama in a heartbeat.
can you summarize that for me? i want to put stock in your read because you're p town to me (either that or master pocketsmith :<) but i don't see how you could come to that conclusion without my pt
or maybe it's because you townread arthur?
talk me through this and if you have a logical argument for parama you have my vote again
i'm terrified jester/mds will flip t/t because a tilted jester who is just sick of this game becomes more realistic the more i think about it
in that situation mds acting lynchbaity isn't even unrealistic because maybe she just wants out of the game without ruining it by replacing. in fact that becomes more realistic the more i think of it.
PEDIT: no, i doubt dunn/parama are both scum together.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:05 am
by pieguyn
In post 4193, Human Sequencer wrote:can you summarize that for me? i want to put stock in your read because you're p town to me (either that or master pocketsmith :<) but i don't see how you could come to that conclusion without my pt
or maybe it's because you townread arthur?
talk me through this and if you have a logical argument for parama you have my vote again
Parama is the one whose push came off as explicitly disingenuous to me. I continue to have no idea how they would have came up with the S_S "scum slip", and it continues to be completely baffling to me that when I asked them about it, the best they could give was "tonally it came off like he KNEW Cv666 was town" and somehow this was supposed to be some smoking gun that made it actually a scum slip and not just an an awkwardly worded question. the rest of their push was just about as bad but that's the part of it that stands out the most to me.
SAD I think is really abrasive, but his posts just don't look like scum. as the most recent example, in the SAD/Parama interaction from the start of this game day, I was pretty satisfied with his lines of attack ("you just pushed a mislynch and now you've came right out again and hard pushed a case on me full of BS reasons", "he's trying to obfuscate the S_S lynch by calling attention to the fact that other people wanted it too").
I don't really think it's just a stylistic issue. it could be, but I don't think it is.
why specifically do you doubt a Dunn/Parama team?
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:06 am
by pieguyn
we do agree on scout being "a little shallow and also town". I think *if* there's scum focus on me right now, it's Dunn.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:10 am
by pieguyn
In post 4193, Human Sequencer wrote:i'm terrified jester/mds will flip t/t because a tilted jester who is just sick of this game becomes more realistic the more i think about it
in that situation mds acting lynchbaity isn't even unrealistic because maybe she just wants out of the game without ruining it by replacing. in fact that becomes more realistic the more i think of it.
I'm scared out of my fucking mind that this is what's going on, too, but then I think of just how shit his play this entire game has actually been if he *is* town here, and the fact that the him-town world likely has Parama and SAD hard cross bussing each other, and I calm down. ideally they should have been lynched first dance so we wouldn't have had to be sitting here entertaining the possibility someone can somehow play that badly as town.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:11 am
by pieguyn
either that or mhsmith is scum but I'm rapidly getting the same feeling I've had about Maria and SAD that I just don't think his posts look that much like scum, even though I do not feel as strongly about it as I do/did with them.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:16 am
by Human Sequencer
because dunn 110% wants me dead which also kills parama, and parama had some realistic reads on dunn throughout the game. that latter one only holds up if parama is town, i understand that.
i doubt dunn has been pushing me for bus credit because he was doing it yesterday, and his reaction to me scumreading parama makes no sense for a scumDunn that is trying to bus parama.
i read most of his pushes as legitimate but misguided.
In post 4193, Human Sequencer wrote:i'm terrified jester/mds will flip t/t because a tilted jester who is just sick of this game becomes more realistic the more i think about it
in that situation mds acting lynchbaity isn't even unrealistic because maybe she just wants out of the game without ruining it by replacing. in fact that becomes more realistic the more i think of it.
I'm scared out of my fucking mind that this is what's going on, too, but then I think of just how shit his play this entire game has actually been if he *is* town here, and the fact that the him-town world likely has Parama and SAD hard cross bussing each other, and I calm down. ideally they should have been lynched first dance so we wouldn't have had to be sitting here entertaining the possibility someone can somehow play that badly as town.
jester and mds shared a hydra in equilibrium mafia, vedith and i were both in that game, and mariar replaced into jester/MDS' scum slot. vedith read them to a tee as scum, and pushed them pretty hard. jester hid from the game, and at a point mds was the only one posting, relaying jester's play to us all until the slot eventually requested a replacement. sound familiar?
now you might say 'this means they're scum' because they were also scum in that game, but i think the motivation here is different for the same action. i think jester could be legit fucking sick of this game because of how 'dumb' town is to scumread him as opposed to how easy vedith read them.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:18 am
by Human Sequencer
jester, your input would be appreciated, you know your thoughts best (assuming you're town)
if you're town please don't gamethrow by letting yourself be lynched, if you're scum please stop wasting our time and leave the dance
