Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Macrophage (5) - Voidedmafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro, rhinox, hiplop, Lastsurvivor
funkybike1 (2) - Sleepless Assassin, kortul
Lastsurvivor (2) - nachomamma8, 4nxi3ty
Voidedmafia (1) - Macrophage
Debonair Danny DiPietro (1) - Alicewondering
Alicewondering (1) - funkybike1

Not Voting (1) - fishythefish

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Final deadline is April 9th, 7PM PST
funkybike1 is being replaced

[Voidedmafia]

So thinking that votes should be serious at this point in the game is a scumtell nowadays? That's news to me. Who didn't send me the memo?!

Also, I did ask you to explain why you voted me, or did you forget that?

[Macrophage]

Also, I did ask you to explain why you voted me, or did you forget that?

You're obviously too town for me then.

[Voidedmafia]

...not sure if sarcastic.

[Lastsurvivor]

LastSurvivor: What has made you aware of how townie your posts are?

I'm generally posting the same way I have been all game, so I'm not sure what made you obtain a town read on me, especially since it seems I was your top scum read. Most of your concerns about me seemed to be about how I constructed cases, and I don't think I've really changed that.

[Macrophage]

Some form of townread:

Fishy
Nacho
Kortul
4nxiety
LastSurvivor
Sleepless
Hiplop

Others

Rhinox-> There are many things that make me think town, but there are enough things that make me question my initial read. I think that the attacking of hiplop is scummy and then withdrawing his vote and never returning to the issue. The other main thing is his vote and lasting suspicion on me. He doesn't agree with the reasons other people have for suspecting me, but has his own thing. He's too unaware of other people's thoughts and too concerned with having unique reasoning. Also his reasoning is bad. It's much easier for scum to vote off wagons than attract attention from joining a main one (especially one that was previously considered a townread)
More scummy, is that he's somehow gained a sustained scumread from this. He mentions my catch-up posts as making him have doubts of the slot, which suggests he was reasonably confident of us being scum. I don't see how town-Rhinox could have gotten there and I think scum tend to be more "jumpy" with their suspicions. (as in somehow getting a scumread off one thing and not really considering things properly).

Still, there are many things when I read over his posts that I think of as coming from town. I am worried that I'm seeing towntells which I shouldn't be and I do find Rhinox scummy, but my scumread is not very strong at all.

Funky-> I think the main things I've found scummy about him are in the catch-up posts, although I do think that the points made for Funky being town are decent. I'm really waiting for his replacement to see what I think of him.

Debonair-> I don't really find much that's town at all about his play, except for a couple of things which I'd consider towntells from newbs, but not from someone with Debonair's experience. I'm considering pushing him as a lynch if Voided doesn't work out, but first:

Does anyone have Debonair as a townread. If so, why?

Debonair: What is your experience regarding the reliability of the Amished tell?
What made you think I was scum from that, despite Nacho and Fishy's not-so-positive reactions to it?

Voided-> Pretty much what I've already said. I would most like to lynch him today.

PEdit: @LS: I still find your reasons for suspecting people to be more similar to what's typically considered bad and less like what I think a townie would actually find scummy, but at some point in the game you started asking good questions and I forget exactly why, but the way you seemed to be trying hard to scumhunt and get the town moving made me think you were town.

[4nxi3ty]

DDD, if you think asking for the last person in a person's will is "useless information," then why did you ask the question in the first place?

oooh good point

Rhinox, do you always BS your way through RVS like you are now? Or is this just how you play your scum games? (srs question)

Most of your "scumhunting" so far has been related to DDD. By that, I mean deflecting his question back to him and this post above. What do you think of DDD, Rhinox?

DDD, good answer.

- really tries to paint rhinox as scum here yet:

UNVOTE: Malee
VOTE: Rhinox

waits for fishy to place a vote before placing his; Also unvotes after fishy.

moves on to SA(no longer following fishy's tail, I believe fishy mentioned something about LS following him before this):

@
VOTE: Sleepless Assassin

Mainly because of the "you seem on edge" accusation he threw out towards fish, and the lack of justification.
I don't like how he asked for Rhinox's votes either. Seems like he was trying to manipulate what he thought was a frustrated Rhino.

A thing I noticed with SA at first is that

he's talking about a whole lotta nothing.

Which is what I pointed out in my original post and

his floppy reasoning

with the fishy attack. His last post definitely has that as well. If you look at that big paragraph, it's a bunch of

fence sitting and jibberjabber

. Why expand on the DDD/Nacho conflict if a) you have nothing to say and b ) DDD isn't even your top scum choice? Because it's an easy thing for scum to talk about, that's why.

SA's biggest scum ITT.

-the bolded parts are overstatements with a hint of buzzwords

SA wagon never really takes off so he moves on to Malee:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malee

L-2.

SA's not looking too bad to me anymore. Malee, on the other hand, is just a mess whenever she appears. The thing that bothers me the most is

the pandering

. I know I defended her because she played like this in another game, but she never pandered even when she was under fire. I feel like she just saw that in some "how 2 be gud scum" article and copied it

-overstating again; malee did agree she made a mistake and unvoted, it never got into pandering territory

malee wagon dies and than he moves onto alice and funkybike

those die down a bit and its off to theo:

Hmm..

If theo comes back, he really needs to explain his flip flop.

-immediately jumps to flipfloppng, fails to consider that it could just be a change in reads or a tentative read.

jumps to accusing macro of flipflopping as well.

Also, it is odd that after all that effort spent to prove to us that alice and funky are scum he just changes his mind and pushes a theo/macro lynch

These aren't the actions of town pressuring a wide variety of people to understand their alignments, this is aggressive scum looking for a mislynch.

CONFIRM VOTE: LS

[Macrophage]

4nxiety: What do you think of posts like 253? This and questions like the one at the end of 258 I really see as coming from town. I'm also starting to think scum wouldn't ask why someone found another person fake. It's completely nonsensical.

[4nxi3ty]

meh scum can often take a pro-town stance such as pressuring lurkers to post more content. those posts don't really sway me one way or the other.

what does bother me, is that LS has repeatedly hopped from wagon to wagon and for most part gets a town read on someone when their wagon isn't moving.

[Lastsurvivor]

- really tries to paint rhinox as scum here yet:

waits for fishy to place a vote before placing his; Also unvotes after fishy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... _causation

Second time you've invoked this. Fishy voting had nothing to do with my vote. Fishy did convince me to unvote because he helped me see the towniness in Rhino though. I'm confused. How is this scummy exactly? It's not.

moves on to SA(no longer following fishy's tail, I believe fishy mentioned something about LS following him before this):

-the bolded parts are overstatements with a hint of buzzwords

OH MY GOD NOT BUZZWORDS!!!!!!!

You haven't said anything so far. Exaggerating isn't really scummy, especially in the early game when there isn't much to go on. Nor are "HINTS OF BUZZWORDS" scummy.

-overstating again; malee did agree she made a mistake and unvoted, it never got into pandering territory

Misrep (OH MY GOD A BUZZWORD). You don't even know what I'm referring to when I say pandering. I'm referring to this:

This post feels fake to me (see #95 and #97 as well.)

That's very townish to say, but it was genuine. I thought nacho voted you, but even without that vote, he still skimmed. I wasn't paying attention enough, my bad.

malee wagon dies and than he moves onto alice and funkybike

The Malee wagon pretty much died with my unvote. But nice try.

-immediately jumps to flipfloppng, fails to consider that it could just be a change in reads or a tentative read.

Yeah you missed this post apparently:

I want to see Theo reply to the flip flop on Alice, since I feel there is an explanation that town could make. If he explains well, my vote stays on Funk.

TL;DR: I did consider what you just said. In fact, there's nothing even in the original post that you quoted that implies that I hadn't.

jumps to accusing macro of flipflopping as well.

K why is this scummy.

Also, it is odd that after all that effort spent to prove to us that alice and funky are scum he just changes his mind and pushes a theo/macro lynch

OH MY GOD HEAVEN FORBID MY READS ON ALICE CAN CHANGE AFTER INTERACTIONS.
You're. Not. Saying. Anything. That. Makes. Me. Scum.

Funky I've given up on for today because it's clear he's not getting lynched. Plus, he's probably gonna get replaced tomorrow.

These aren't the actions of town pressuring a wide variety of people to understand their alignments, this is aggressive scum looking for a mislynch.

That's an interesting conclusion because you haven't proven it at all.

what does bother me, is that LS has repeatedly hopped from wagon to wagon and for most part gets a town read on someone when their wagon isn't moving.

To be fair I've basically created almost half of the wagons I've been on (Rhinox if I had gotten on before Fishy, Alice). But yeah, wagon hopping isn't scummy. Nice try.

Oh, and gee. I get a town read on someone when I unvote them? Don't you think that might indicate that I'm unvoting them because I actually believe they're not scum?

----

Now, please provide a case that does not do on any of the following.

1) Points out arbitrary things about my play and saying that they're are scummy when they're not at all (E.g, "LS SAID MACRO FLIP FLOPPED OMG HE MUST BE SCUM." "LS UNVOTES PEOPLE AND THEN BELIEVES THEY'RE TOWN, HE MUST BE SCUM." )
2) Relies on logical fallacies.
3) Is inaccurate (E.g, not knowing what I'm referring to when I say pandering or missing my posts)

When you do this you can keep your vote. Otherwise, stop wasting our freaking time and lynch scum.

[4nxi3ty]

There is no way for me to read your mind and actually know what caused you to do something, I'll I see is waht happens in thread.

Why do you the need to provide a wiki link instead of just explaing why you waited to vote rhinox?

Exaggerations are fine when trying to get reactions, your exaggerations tend to fall more towards pushing a lynch rather than reaction test.

Why do you think a funkybike wagon is no longer viable?

I'm not going "OMG WAGONHOPS SCOMZR", I am showing that the timing of your hops happen after someone else has jumped off and that you always end up on the next biggest wagon.

Why do you dismiss my points as arbritary instead of trying to understand my perspective?

[Macrophage]

4nxiety, what do you think of voided? I'd rather not lynch Lastsurvivor.

Also, I have a question, does anyone know how the last wills usually work (as in what do you actually give to the people you placed higher) and are they revealed?

[4nxi3ty]

had a tentative townread on vincent, not really seeing scum motivation in voided's posts.

why would you rather not lynch LS, cause he is active?

[Lastsurvivor]

There is no way for me to read your mind and actually know what caused you to do something, I'll I see is waht happens in thread.

And you shouldn't be assuming that I'm scum just because Fishy made a vote before I did. Especially since I'm pretty sure I've already explained my actions about it.

Why do you the need to provide a wiki link instead of just explaing why you waited to vote rhinox?

It's fun! Linking to logical fallacies is fun!

Exaggerations are fine when trying to get reactions, your exaggerations tend to fall more towards pushing a lynch rather than reaction test.

I can't deny that I exaggerate, but it's not intentional. I normally just write down what I think and tone it down, but sometimes I don't tone it down.

Why do you think a funkybike wagon is no longer viable?

No one seemed to be responding to my prods for the vote a few days ago. I assumed that everyone just thought that Funky had too few posts for a vote.

I'm not going "OMG WAGONHOPS SCOMZR", I am showing that the timing of your hops happen after someone else has jumped off and that you always end up on the next biggest wagon.

Meh. If you look at the vote count archive, that's not really true. Well, someone might always jump off before I unvote, sure, but I don't always end up on the biggest wagon.

Why do you dismiss my points as arbritary instead of trying to understand my perspective?

Not all your points are arbitrary. Just those two I think. That said, they shouldn't be in your case.

[Lastsurvivor]

pedit: *sometimes I don't tone it down enough.

but whatever.

[Voidedmafia]

Macro: Highest on the last will gets your vote if you get lynched or otherwise killed. So, theoretically, come LyLo a person could have all votes except the last two people alive if everybody who died gave that person their vote. I don't think the wills themselves are actually revealed, though you obviously get to know who their top pick was.

[Fishythefish]

Hmmm. Not particularly liking Vincent's reaction here. What's the problem with the vote or with 408? And note the options he gives us - the vote was scum or OMGUS. No possibility of it being serious for any reason other than OMGUS.

Well, at the time he was like, "Hai, I'm here, btw, vote voided" and there was no indication as to why he voted me, hence my reaction. So while it could've been just a joke, I had no way of knowing that. Then in 408 he's like, "chillax, it's just a joke!" and quite frankly, I don't know why you'd throw at a joke vote at this point because they make no sense. I don't care if you're going to call me some sort of hard-hat or whatever, but we're at the point where we really can't just say "lolol vote: x lolol" and expect it to be pushed under the rug or somesuch.

So, why do you think he voted, and why do you think he's more likely scum than town for it? When you say you were trying to work out if the vote was scum or OMGUS, why did you think those were the likely options?

I don't get at all why you think that Macro's vote on you is scummy. ATM, it looks very much to me like you want to dismiss his vote and attack him, and you did this rather carelessly because he's widely regarded as scum and you thought it would be easy.

Voided is right in that the wills aren't revealed. The key thing is to have a townie at the top; preferably two at night, in case of vigs and such.

[Macrophage]

4nxiety, I'm not very sure about him, but I think he's more likely town than others.

Thanks voided. So do you think it is only the highest that matters?

[Voidedmafia]

Yes, only the highest on the list really matters, though it's a good idea to have the top 3 or top 5 be all townreads and have the rest be your other reads.

Fishy Well, if it was a reaction-test vote (as ISO 2/408 seems to partially indicate), I sure hope it worked for him. I'm not entirely sure what he was trying to get out of it, but to me, laying down a vote at this point with no reasoning whatsoever just reads as scummy to me. If there's reasons posted beforehand, then so long as those are the reasons you're voting for and those reasons aren't already refuted it's fine. But when you just come in as a replacement and do that, I'm going to be suspicious.

re OMGUS or scummy: One option was an obvious choice, considering I restarted the Maltheophage wagon (going by the fact I'm the first vote on the slot), and the other is because, like I said, I consider votes without current or prior reasoning suspect. And since his reasoning did not look town at all, I didn't include that as a choice. Certainly doesn't look null, of course.

re my opinion: Well, I did dismiss the vote as I explained, and I pretty much just explained why I'm attacking him for it. There certainly doesn't seem to be much of a town-like reasoning to do that, as well, unless you can enlighten me.

[Alicewondering]

Alice, how serious was your initial vote on hiplop?

Not that much. It was mostly a combination of having no one better to vote for, as well as confirmation bias.

Alice: Knowing that I hadn't read anything, what made you think to ask the "What makes VM scummy?" question.

It was basically a question asking you why you voted him. Of course, it hinges on the idea that you voted for someone you thought was scummy....

Can people vote Voided please?

no.
Macro, I'm a bit offended that you've missed me on your reads list.

----

4nx, I'm not sure if I buy your case on LS. It seems to have a lot to do with him wagon hopping and shifting votes, which is not necessarily a scumtell.

[Macrophage]

Oh sorry, you're on the town list.

no.

But why not? *in a whiney voice while stamping feet*

UNVOTE: Voidedmafia
VOTE: Debonair

GO WAGON GO!

[Macrophage]

Whoops, accidentally pressed enter too many times.

I was going to say:

If anyone wants to vote Voided, please do. I'd like that wagon a lot more.

[Alicewondering]

Why are you encouraging another wagon now?

[Macrophage]

Because this one might actually save me from being lynched.

Also *whiny

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Debonair: How is it bad exactly?

It's a vote on a town player; see post 376 for the reason.

Lastsurvivor's 422 is a way bad post; he sells out for a lesser lynch than his prefered target and he gets that kind of snotty tone that I get when I'm scum and have people suspecting me for what I think are wrong reasons.

Because this one might actually save me from being lynched.

Well at least you're honest about your crass survivalism; too bad for you that you're wrong about your assesment of the game state.