Mafiascum.net

Fuck, I still have no concept of how you think not lynching a guy because of the world's most convenient roleclaim.


1) His claim is completely unverifiable without a cop check
2) You basically have to sacrifice the cop (to scum NK's or a possible scum RB) to verify him

Stop citing mindless policy without thinking of the specifics. It's goddamn infuriating.

Vote ac1983fan, and if he somehow flips town, you're more than welcome to hold me accountible for it.

In the mean-time, I'm going to be lynching people who I'm convinced are scum by any means necessary.

I will not compromise on ac1983fan unless he decides to start acting super-townie. Making the worlds most convenient blue-claim to save yourself isn't a start.

Okay because my other half is not quite on the same point I was making in the QT...

A claim like that where you cant actually prove it in any way is not something that you automatically avoid lynching. Its simply a mild reason not to lynch him (im hesitant to actually call it a towntell) in the situation. However, part of the claim I like quite a bit from having a (whole lot) more experience here than you do. Ive been a part (player/mod) of at this point probably over 100 games here, almost EVERY time I see a player claim a limited shot role, ESPECIALLY a non-information limited shot role, they are either town or scum with that exact role.

Him claiming one shot is enough for me to put that wagon on pause. You have decent enough reasoning, but as Jake has said the way the wagon formed, especially when you compare it to the NC wagon, doesn't feel right. The only time a wagon just blitzes to L-1 its on scum? Ehhh... probably not. Its more of extra things instead of a good/bad case that make ac a bad lynch. Yes even though you are going to complain about it - he is a bad lynch. A cop probably shouldn't claim tomorrow or investigate him, but he still is a bad lynch because scum are either going to have to make a more suboptimal kill or take some other course of action.

NC though is scum. Two more points on the matter are

1) His attack on Toom basically comes AFTER the wagon had started, but then he goes back and basically bases his page 10 vote on page 1/2 posts. If he actually saw those as scummy he would have said something about it when that was occurring instead of later
2) He is really keeping options open. Notice that Varsoon gets wagoned as a counter, and he immediately thinks that Varsoon is a decent lynch. This is NC getting ready to jump there when needed. Varsoon on the other hoof has the town reaction.

So yeah. acfan, maybe scum, maybe town, not the lynch. There are situations where you lynch a PR day one and this isn't it, we just follow it later and see what happens. Leaving him alive if he is town becomes massive thorn in scums side.

I mean fuck. Have you actually ac1983fan's filter irrespective of the Varsoon vote? The guy has done no scumhunting.

He parks his vote on Daemon because "it's the right place at the moment", asks two questions to Dyslexicon which he immediately dismisses, and has done jack-shit else.

Then makes a poorly justified list of scum-reads, of which he votes none of them and choses to vote a guy for being "anti-town" instead.

Lynch him grawwwwww.

1) His attack on Toom basically comes AFTER the wagon had started, but then he goes back and basically bases his page 10 vote on page 1/2 posts. If he actually saw those as scummy he would have said something about it when that was occurring instead of later
2) He is really keeping options open. Notice that Varsoon gets wagoned as a counter, and he immediately thinks that Varsoon is a decent lynch. This is NC getting ready to jump there when needed. Varsoon on the other hoof has the town reaction.

All of this applies to acfan as well.
1) He votes Varsoon when the wagon gains traction. Does it in a highly emotional manner despite being self-proclaimed "patient."
2) He keeps all his options open as well. He hasn't committed to ANYTHING all game until Varsoon, and then is "OK" with the NC wagon despite being skeptical about it in the early game.

NC is a lurker lynch. Under many circumstances, I would be OK with that lynch on Day 1. However right now we have ac1983fan, who's not only a lurker but has extreme contradictions in his play.

Futhermore, his play heavily implies that NC is town.

That is why you lynch acfan today.

A claim like that where you cant actually prove it in any way is not something that you automatically avoid lynching. Its simply a mild reason not to lynch him (im hesitant to actually call it a towntell) in the situation. However, part of the claim I like quite a bit from having a (whole lot) more experience here than you do. Ive been a part (player/mod) of at this point probably over 100 games here, almost EVERY time I see a player claim a limited shot role, ESPECIALLY a non-information limited shot role, they are either town or scum with that exact role.

Him claiming one shot is enough for me to put that wagon on pause. You have decent enough reasoning, but as Jake has said the way the wagon formed, especially when you compare it to the NC wagon, doesn't feel right. The only time a wagon just blitzes to L-1 its on scum? Ehhh... probably not. Its more of extra things instead of a good/bad case that make ac a bad lynch. Yes even though you are going to complain about it - he is a bad lynch. A cop probably shouldn't claim tomorrow or investigate him, but he still is a bad lynch because scum are either going to have to make a more suboptimal kill or take some other course of action.

OK this is the first reasoning that I've seen that I can somewhat sympathize with.

However, I still firmly believe it's wrong.

However, part of the claim I like quite a bit from having a (whole lot) more experience here than you do. Ive been a part (player/mod) of at this point probably over 100 games here, almost EVERY time I see a player claim a limited shot role, ESPECIALLY a non-information limited shot role, they are either town or scum with that exact role.

This I don't understand at all. I've played many games myself (albeit on other sites), and I've seen no such correlation. In my experience, these convenient, "neatly-packaged" claims are almost always scum. I find that townie-claims are often much more sloppy, emotional, and crazy. AC fan strolled in and made a nice little post with all of his reads, and then "Oh BTW, I'm the 1-shot doctor." That doesn't sound natural or genuine to me at all.

The only time a wagon just blitzes to L-1 its on scum? Ehhh... probably not. Its more of extra things instead of a good/bad case that make ac a bad lynch.

Howabout NC? Do you think that scum would be under that much suspicion and scrutiny throughout the entire 2-week cycle? In fact it is the "gradual" accumulation of votes on NC that makes me terribly suspicious of it. In an active town, I wouldn't mind it as much, but in an apathetic town full of lurkers and lack of initiative by players, I'm skeptical of any wagon that people just "acquiese" to gradually over 2 weeks.

I also think you underestimate the volatility of votes created by me screaming "Lynch AC" at the top of my lungs, as well my general influence in this game so far.

A cop probably shouldn't claim tomorrow or investigate him, but he still is a bad lynch because scum are either going to have to make a more suboptimal kill or take some other course of action.[/Quote]

What other action would scum take? This makes no sense. Scum are going to go kill an obvious townie irregardless of whether or not we lynch AC.

In post 414, hapahauli wrote:How is this justification for not killing scum?

Though did you see if he had this mentality of going for anti-town lynches in scum games, I only recall you linking town.

I only looked through his town-games. He had a scum-game where he mentioned something about voting anti-town, but I didn't look at it very carefully since he replaced out on Day 1. Inconclusive game.

It's possible he has other scum-games (I only searched him for games where he said "anti-town").[/quote]
It means I don't believe he is necessary scum at present.

I'm just wondering why since you went through all his games you therefore missed another old one in open 122, as it probably does reinforce your point.
Mini 1341 is the only recentish scumgame I could see (which is possibly the one you saw where he replaced out), it had him holding off voting a lot longer, but the whole you yelling at people that this should happen is still putting me off actually wanting to vote him.

Cheery, what is your read on me? You've been "hinting" skepticism at my motives, and I want to be clear what you think.

And you're still talking around the issue here. There are many non-meta reasons with for which AC fan is scum, and you consistently refuse to address each and every one of them.

In post 432, hapahauli wrote:Cheery, what is your read on me?

Mmmm, don't really feel like filling a self-appraisal request.

In post 432, hapahauli wrote:You've been "hinting" skepticism at my motives, and I want to be clear what you think.

Have I? Perhaps skeptical of your .

In post 432, hapahauli wrote:And you're still talking around the issue here. There are many non-meta reasons with for which AC fan is scum, and you consistently refuse to address each and every one of them.

I don't know what part of the issue is being talked around. Whether to vote ac1983fan or not to vote him seems to be the issue. I'm in the second camp. I wouldn't say the onus is on me to pick apart your case, that's more for ac1983fan himself to do. However, I believe the strength of your reasons has come through a meta mentality, yet removing that leaves a lot of WIFOM. And there's a claim to take into consideration.

UNVOTE:

I'm not lynching a claimed PR today.

- GC

In post 399, NicCage wrote:I don't do read lists, I think they're scummy and anti-town. Not that they're always scummy, but it won't be of any benefit to you if I make one.

I am willing to poop out a few reads though. I'll need some more time to think.

In post 253, Dyslexicon wrote:

In post 251, ac1983fan wrote:Oh, that's my error. I though scott's 215 was directed at Dyslexicon b/c of how it was quoted. DERP. ~ignore me~

I was about to correct you, but you have autocorrect. Jumpy move though, especially considered your post 231. Your initial translation of my vote was not correct either. I don't see it readily fit with your conservative voting, but I must admit I do love a unique style.

Could someone explain to me what dyslexicon was referring to here?

I can! He was at me for only responding to things directed at me, which I really wasn't. I found that funny, cause he actually was in his last post. The irony was captivating.

In post 401, NicCage wrote:Hey dys, what do you think of Toomai?

I thought he was really dodgy in the beginning. But something about the way he said he screwed up at some point looked genuine and eased my suspicion. Lately he's dropping by and droppinge votes, trying to please town or something? Out of you popular folks, you, Scott and Toomai, he is the one I'm least suspicious of as for now. But I must admit I've been paying more attention to you and Scott, but then, there is a reason for that.

"In post 429, hapahauli"]
Futhermore, his [ac19] play heavily implies that NC is town.

That is why you lynch acfan today.[/quote]

Does it? How?

You sure want him hanged! I'm with you.

In post 433, Cheery Pie wrote:

In post 432, hapahauli wrote:Cheery, what is your read on me?

Mmmm, don't really feel like filling a self-appraisal request.

In post 432, hapahauli wrote:You've been "hinting" skepticism at my motives, and I want to be clear what you think.

Have I? Perhaps skeptical of your

actions

.

Ok. What's the difference? If you're suspicious of me, tell it to my face so I don't have to deal with your random "badgering" comments.

In post 432, hapahauli wrote:And you're still talking around the issue here. There are many non-meta reasons with for which AC fan is scum, and you consistently refuse to address each and every one of them.

I don't know what part of the issue is being talked around. Whether to vote ac1983fan or not to vote him seems to be the issue. I'm in the second camp. I wouldn't say the onus is on me to pick apart your case, that's more for ac1983fan himself to do. However, I believe the strength of your reasons has come through a meta mentality, yet removing that leaves a lot of WIFOM. And there's a claim to take into consideration.

If you are not voting ac1983fan, the onus is on you to explain why. Or do you seriously think Varsoon is a better candidate at this point?

In post 434, GoodCopBadCop wrote:UNVOTE:

I'm not lynching a claimed PR today.

- GC

Yes, because claiming 1-shot doctor is totally not a convenient easy-to-claim unverifiable PR at all.

So if we're not lynching him today, when are we lynching him? There's no way to verify him short of having a cop claim (which is ridiculous), so what's the point in not lynching someone you think is scum today?

Blind, thoughtless, policies.

In post 435, Dyslexicon wrote: ...
Does it? How?

You sure want him hanged! I'm with you.

It's somewhat associative. Basically if ac1983fan is scum, his actions towards NC heavily imply that NC is town.

I talked about it here a bit:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4956013

Basically, he was earlier in the game skeptical of the quickness of the NC wagon, and then completely forgets about his rationale and is completely OK with it right now. He's soft-pushing the NC wagon while sitting on Varsoon.

In post 438, hapahauli wrote:

In post 435, Dyslexicon wrote: ...
Does it? How?

You sure want him hanged! I'm with you.

It's somewhat associative. Basically if ac1983fan is scum, his actions towards NC heavily imply that NC is town.

I talked about it here a bit:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4956013

Basically, he was earlier in the game skeptical of the quickness of the NC wagon, and then completely forgets about his rationale and is completely OK with it right now. He's soft-pushing the NC wagon while sitting on Varsoon.

I think this might as well be ac19 wanting to be a good townie and be suspicious about who almost everyone else is suspicious about, whitout having to vote. I think it's likely he thought NC would be lynched, and then could point to everywhere he agreed that it was a good lynch the next day. This was before the attention was on ac19, he probably thought he was safe. This I could very well see happening if both ac19 and NC is scum, which I'm actually inclined to believe at this point. I don't think ac19 being scum clears NC in any way. I'd actually be willing to lynch either at this point.

In post 437, hapahauli wrote:

In post 434, GoodCopBadCop wrote:UNVOTE:

I'm not lynching a claimed PR today.

- GC

Yes, because claiming 1-shot doctor is totally not a convenient easy-to-claim unverifiable PR at all.

So if we're not lynching him today, when are we lynching him? There's no way to verify him short of having a cop claim (which is ridiculous), so what's the point in not lynching someone you think is scum today?

Blind, thoughtless, policies.

We can lynch him tomorrow if he's still acting scummy. Let him use his ability (if he's telling the truth) tonight. Lynching him today is a scummy decision.

- GC

In post 436, hapahauli wrote:Ok. What's the difference? If you're suspicious of me, tell it to my face so I don't have to deal with your random "badgering" comments.

The difference in questioning your actions and not your motives is that I'm not casting suspicion on your alignment, rather where you are putting your energy: vis a vis making the cases on 1 post wonders, eagerness for ac1983fan lynch and so on. Right now it'd be very difficult to construe your posting as scummy and that's not what I'm doing. I also don't see how this is "badgering" or random. That seems to imply it's out of place or that you have some sort of suspicions on what I'm doing. Dealing with questions towards your actions comes with the territory, I'd say it's no different from what you've been doing to others. However, if you feel it is, please elaborate why that's the case.

In post 432, hapahauli wrote:If you are not voting ac1983fan, the onus is on you to explain why. Or do you seriously think Varsoon is a better candidate at this point?

Right, well I thought I gave a rough indication, but a couple of simple points:

• - the wagon developed extremely quickly (at this stage that's not often an indication of town-only involvement)
  - there are people who jumped on the wagon that I either have suspicion of, or feel they joined it weakly and thus leaves me developing suspicion
  - there's been a PR claim, not an ideal one, but my preference with these things in the past is to not lynched claimed PR's if there's reasonable opportunity for them to do something with it
  - we could take the PR claim into consideration for tomorrow, both with possible set-ups and future courses of action eg. should ac1983fan keep his 1 shot for later and bait out a scum kill? or try to protect key targets to help town for tomorrow? etc.
  - the case on ac1983fan isn't definitive (RE: meta) and so there's no reason to be close minded towards alternative explanations for his actions or lynch targets for today
  - there are alternative lynches and time (just) to lynch these people

I wouldn't go so far as to say Varsoon is a candidate, but he feels like a viable alternative. I'd also consider NicCage for a lynch. The wagon on ac1983fan happened faster than I would've liked and could've reacted to. I was wary of its speed and the PR claim only increases this notion. That's not to say you don't have relevant points, but in the scope of how it played out I've gotten a bad feeling about it all.

This wagon and the deadline has caught me between a rock and a hard place. I don't think there's really time for elaborate cases to counter ac1983fan's, it's going to have to be or instead. So if people aren't going to be moving their votes then I'll hammer if need be.

Well I'm all for NC or Toomai now so if we're not lynching Toomai,

VOTE: NC

- Use your ability tonight.
---

VOTE: Cage
This is a good lynch. Also, we need lynch RIGT NOW. The deadline is in a few hours.

change "good" to "best".

- GC (both posts)

I say we lynch the PR-claiming ACFan. Claiming a PR is scum's way of dodging the noose.

So what if he's a one-shot doctor? That's a weak-ass PR anyway.
I like the odds.

On the other hand, the Nic Cage lynch just feels like a lynch that'd happen moreso because people have put votes there before, rather than a worthwhile lynch at scum.

I can agree that we need to all make our decisions soon since the clock is ticking. It sucks we have this limited amount of time at this point with such a claim that should be talked out more. With the time constraints though we don't have that luxury. With my past experience with mafia games (not form mafia) this situation happens a lot. Which makes the lynch both frustrating and hard. It's kind of a 50/50 shot in this case in my opinion, but with me being as skeptical as I am it is hard for me to decide either way. I'd like to see a scum get lynched in our first day, but I'd hate to be wrong and get a power role lynched instead. Given that the mafia knows whether he is scum or not and also knowing that if he isn't scum he may just be the doc. If that is the case they could either kill him off now and save some trouble later, or they could drag it out keep suspicion on him for as long as they need to. Even if it is just to stall the killing of one of there own/pointing the blame at another townie. I would say that it is not a good idea though to have a cop check him tonight if he is not lynched due to the fact that if ACfan is town then both our doc and our cop(if there is one) would then both be revealed weakening our survivability and insight. Or if he is town and the cop just doesn't say anything then we would have the problem of the still hanging suspicion over him which my still get him killed if not already. If he is scum then he has a free ticket to at least another day and the scum will surely use that to their advantage. It would be far better to have the cop search someone else in my opinion due to the pros out weighing the cons.

As for my vote I'm rattled and torn between 3 possibilities. NicCage and Scott are still on my watch list, but Hapa does make a good case against ACfan. It is just that this PR claim sticks a wrench in that. Do I trust the PR claim myself? I'm not quite sure. Not 100%.But do I want to change my vote? Not exactly. I'm going to keep my vote for now, but it may change before this day is over I need to look some things over real quick. I feel ACfan could be buying himself off with the PR ticket to live another day. Scum will do anything they can to survive.

I don't like the idea of having ac19 around with this heavy suspicion. It feels like "saving the problem for later" which isn't really solving anything. If he is town, I'd want to know it now, and not have the doubts at some more critical point later. And given the super fast way the wagon developed it could give us some valuble information in the case he actually is town. And if he is scum, voila! As for the claim, a 1-shot doctor is next to vanilla as far as I'm concerned. That being said I don't have a problem changing my vote to NC if it's needed. Will check in soon.

In post 440, GoodCopBadCop wrote:

@Hapa

In post 437, hapahauli wrote:

In post 434, GoodCopBadCop wrote:UNVOTE:

I'm not lynching a claimed PR today.

- GC

Yes, because claiming 1-shot doctor is totally not a convenient easy-to-claim unverifiable PR at all.

So if we're not lynching him today, when are we lynching him? There's no way to verify him short of having a cop claim (which is ridiculous), so what's the point in not lynching someone you think is scum today?

Blind, thoughtless, policies.

We can lynch him tomorrow if he's still acting scummy. Let him use his ability (if he's telling the truth) tonight. Lynching him today is a scummy decision.

- GC

That's silly.

a) There's a very low chance he's flipping town
b) Even if he is somehow town, it's impossible to verify his ability.
c) Even if he is somehow town, he's a high roleblock risk.