Mafiascum.net

heya prism

In post 4270, Prism wrote:I read the bork ISO. They're not powertown at all but I see a few reasons to think he's not scum and the few to scum read him as likely stylistic. I can't really give backlinks since I'm on my phone laying down, I might later.

I'm skeptical of the early interactions with Syr but the interactions with unwnd were great. I'm on my phone and can't easily link but unwnd consciously tagged on to bork's characterization of me, and bork went out of his way to quote unwnd two/three times about me saying "deja vu", "are you me", etc.

All of bork's reads are plausible and progress well. The only questionable one for me is +town. He has a great post later on about Syr's facade beginning to crack but reverts to not wanting to vote the slot. Given that he townread Syr around this, this seems consistent to me.

I really didn't like bork's early game, and I don't like how bork holds off comments on entire slots (ex. With Ben/me Day) for extended periods but I can get over it. Both are likely stylistic.

His entrance into Day 2 as going aggressive on Pooky was fine, even if the back off was awkward this was explainable., but his Day 2 positioning around Ben/DGB were also stellar, consistent, and very plausible as town. I don't really have the same issues with his eventual vote on Elements.

I need a more specific reasons to vote the slot.

i'll take another look at his iso to see if i see what you see wrt unwnd/syr interactions
i guess for me the big sticking point is that while i agree that his elements progression *could* come from town, i think that scum's progression around elements looks p much exactly like that, and it's hard for me to handwave that away.
to me the key of solving this game is figuring out what scum were doing yesterday, and i think the answer is: let elements wagon slide through with token pushback. once we find the people doing that, we've found scum. bork p much exactly fits that archtype to me.
and i'm not sure i agree with your 'stylistic' reasoning for not giving much weight to the things you dislike abt his play

i'll take another look at his iso tho and get back to you

Token pushback would literally be me. Bork's pushback was no token in that he didn't defend Elements really iirc, more just pushed DGB while being a bit annoyed by the AFK voting style of others.

What I mean by stylistic is that the things I don't like about him are things like:
-Not mentioning me/Ben at all yesterday until I directly asked
-Dropping the push on me Day 1 when he thought he was pressuring scum
-Awkward disengage with Pooky after the no bus meta

The more I see from Bork as a player, the less convinced I am these are AI, and that he is instead much more reserved by nature.

In post 4273, Prism wrote:Skimming looking specifically for Skitter's argument for bork I'm just...not really enthusiastic. Bork's timing on voting Elements was very natural. Bork was noticeably lost most of the day anyway after the Pooky meta derailed that (not that being lost is necessarily town), with a bit of aggro on DGB/Ben later.

Shifting the responsibility to bork to sell a better vote is pretty eh when your vote is PoE+gymnastics to justify the 1 in the cohort is scum.

Cabd/notscience got their way. Scum was fine with it regardless of who it was because Elements was town. Everything about bork's playstyle points to him holding off, and he did twice actively try to go on the offensive, once on Pooky once on DGB.

Given the lack of a more concrete reason to vote or be confident in bork, it greatly concerns me that you did not take a more serious look at the off-wagon crowd, and your progression on me has been really questionable. You've come up repeatedly with

very good

reasons to townread me between my reaction to you/bork Day 1, and unwnd's approach to me.

How did I end up dropping down to being with Pooky/Vax?

bolded: i don't think that was entirely what i was donig. it's more, this is the conclusion i've come to, but if i'm wrong, i'm happy to hear how/why and i'd like to know where bork think scum is anyways

italics: rn to me the game is divided into three (four) tiers (or, more accurately, this is what the game looked like to me when we originally ahd this convo, prior to massclaim):

pr tier: dgb, ben (basically was gonna punt that off for another day)
strong townread tier: notsci
contains a scum tier: bork, ffery
everyone else: you, pooky, vax

within the everyone else tier, it's ordered as: vax/you > pooky

i think there was a sort of misconnect in me explainign these tiers and how you were perceiving them. the strongtownread tier i literally don't see myself voting before/in 3way, wherein i'd have to reconsider him to figure out if i'm just very wrong
the tier below (i.e. you, pooky, vax) are town enough that i'm not super concerned abt you rn; i'd rather focus on the tier that i'm very, very confident contains scum. once we sort that out, i can concentrate on the 'everyone else' and 'pr' tiers
(and my money's still on dgb over it being in the 'everyone else' tier, but eh)

you were never a not-sci level townread, but since like late day1 you've been a strong enough townread that i've just not felt super concerned abt your slot. like i'ts not that you dropped so much as you never got to the same level as not-sci

pedit give me a sec, i'm working on it

In post 4278, Prism wrote:What I mean by stylistic is that the things I don't like about him are things like:
-Not mentioning me/Ben at all yesterday until I directly asked
-Dropping the push on me Day 1 when he thought he was pressuring scum
-Awkward disengage with Pooky after the no bus meta

The more I see from Bork as a player, the less convinced I am these are AI, and that he is instead much more reserved by nature.

ok so i think the simplest way to get an answer to this is:
@ffery would you agree with this assessment?

Worth noting that I am also a PR.

I get that I am in a "not that concerned about you" tier, but understanding how legitimate that tiering system is, and understanding why exactly I am there, is the trouble for me.

In post 4278, Prism wrote:Token pushback would literally be me. Bork's pushback was no token in that he didn't defend Elements really iirc, more just pushed DGB while being a bit annoyed by the AFK voting style of others.

i feel like he just acquiesced to elements when it looked like it was gonna be a thing tho
let me reread where you were because i don't remember getting that vibe from you

Oh prior to massclaim, my bad

I literally spent the day openly saying "This wagon I stupid, I'm going to vanity, and I am going to explicitly say I will not even try to sell another vote."

In post 4281, Prism wrote:Worth noting that I am also a PR.

I get that I am in a "not that concerned about you" tier, but understanding how legitimate that tiering system is, and understanding why exactly I am there, is the trouble for me.

yeah i said those were the tiers *at the time we had this convo originally like last week*

you've since moved to the pr tier, and it hasn't changed much, i don't think you're scum with ben or dgb and dgb is my bet for scum in the pr tier. like i think there's max one scum there, and that it's dgb
your claim also comes from town, and this whole convo also comes from town, so i'm just not that interested in you in the immediate future

wrt how legitimate the tiering system is: i mean idk? this is just how i'm viewing this game, and it's the easiest way for me to process where everyone belongs and how the game interlocks together. i don't feel like i need to deal with the 'everyone else' tier just yet when i have a tier that i'm p sure has scum in it

and again i think you thought the townread was stronger than it was? you were never notsci-level town, you were always below that (or, more accurately, that's where you've been since i started townreading you)
(and now that i think of it, syr's sheep of me onto you also doesn't come from partners)

In post 2341, borkjerfkin wrote:

In post 2336, unwnd wrote:Cmon man I haven't even been here to fight with you and your angle still remains the same, where you flip the argument and then turn it against someone. leaving pitfalls in your words for people to fall into. That is why selective reading again, will benefit scum in the long-run

In post 2338, Prism wrote:I literally asked why you believed something you said. It's going to be okay, dude.

Giving me some major fucking deja vu right here

In post 2353, borkjerfkin wrote:

In post 2351, unwnd wrote:OK retrace your thought to me and do it baby steps because now I find myself possibly misinterpreting something

I don't want to fight you, yes I think your actions are scummy but this doesn't need to be another bout

are you literally me

These are the interactions I'm referring to. I think bork is capable of it but they're quite good.

In post 4284, Prism wrote:I literally spent the day openly saying "This wagon I stupid, I'm going to vanity, and I am going to explicitly say I will not even try to sell another vote."

let me read give me a sec. i honestly don't remember what you were doing

In post 3610, Prism wrote:This is dumb and I'm not hammering it.

In post 3611, Prism wrote:I will absolutely vanity this.

i think you jsut take the hammer as scum
this is why your approach looks different to me than bork's - he took the opportunity to hop on the wagon, but you didn't.

I appreciate the clarification as to where I was specifically+within the tiers. Given your statements I was wondering exactly what the placement was, and if there a drop, I definitely wanted to know when and why.

Counterintuitively, my concern is that instinctively, I feel I am higher than I should be, and much of your play dating back to the first vote on me, and extending to deferral/focusing on groupings, lines up with what I personally would have chosen to do as scum.

also the irony of you defending bork to me, etc

In post 4289, Prism wrote:I appreciate the clarification as to where I was specifically+within the tiers. Given your statements I was wondering exactly what the placement was, and if there had been a drop, I definitely wanted to know when and why.

it's more like this, if this helps:

(ben)
notsci

(you)/vax
pooky

ffery
(dgb)
bork

with ffery/bork having max one scum in them i think

ehhhh we can maybe drop vax one level to form a vax/pooky level

In post 4288, skitter30 wrote:

In post 3610, Prism wrote:This is dumb and I'm not hammering it.

In post 3611, Prism wrote:I will absolutely vanity this.

i think you jsut take the hammer as scum
this is why your approach looks different to me than bork's - he took the opportunity to hop on the wagon, but you didn't.

I do not think this makes sense. If it is virtually inevitable and I am in no danger, I only scumhammer if I think it will result in a townread. In contrast, you were actively shopping for bork votes and bork was asked by notsci to vote.

This is a really strange spot to be in for multiple reasons.

In post 4289, Prism wrote:Counterintuitively, my concern is that instinctively, I feel I am higher than I should be, and much of your play dating back to the first vote on me, and extending to deferral/focusing on groupings, lines up with what I personally would have chosen to do as scum.

i mean there's only so much i can say to that: i'm town here, and those are what my reads are.
i can go over why i'm townreading you again if that would be helpful

i think that would have been a super easy place for you to hammer as scum

Me not hammering boils down to legitimately believing Elements to be town, and legitimately being a bit spiteful towards notsci/Cabd. I'm not about to pretend I have no scum incentive to doing so, or that my spite vanitying is a town beacon.

Regarding your last post, it is also an easy place for me to just let someone else do it.

I'll hold off on getting you to explain until I read your full ISO.

I'd be more interested in a more in-depth examination of bork or double-checking other slots, whether that's me or Ffery/Vax/Pooky.

In post 4296, Prism wrote:Me not hammering boils down to legitimately believing Elements to be town, and legitimately being a bit spiteful towards notsci/Cabd. I'm not about to pretend I have no scum incentive to doing so, or that my spite vanitying is a town beacon.

Regarding your last post, it is also an easy place for me to just let someone else do it.

i said i thought it was unlikely to come from scum ...

my sense of you (and who knows, i could be utterly wrong), is that you could lolhammer that as scum if you thought you could get away with it
maybe i'm wrong but that's the vibe i get

imma reread bork

I agree by the way, of you're town those are just your reads, and I'm being overly cautious. It's on me to see that, vague instincts about good scum positioning don't give anything to respond to.