Tales of You (Endgame)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho I'd like to talk to you about Tammy.

[CarbonFiber]

@ PeregrineV

,

PeregrineV, I am unsure about Clyton but I am strongly townreading Titan and I don't think that their neighborhood activity is alignment relevant. For one, they've only had the neighborhood starting on D2 whereas we've had the neighborhood from D1 and had lots of time to talk through things. Also, for most of the time that Titan/Clyton neighborhood has been active, Clyton was on V/LA, Tammy busy, and I don't think Arthur checked in for a long time so I wouldn't read too much into it.

So, if you can explain your townread source on TammyTitan, I'd appreciate it.

I have been townreading Titan since D1 and it is mostly gut + feeling + meta. You seemed to have a townread too earlier so we are in agreement there. I'll address your concerns in this post.

- I don't expect all neighborhoods to function the same way so I don't see anything concerning about them claiming in their neighborhood while we didn't in ours.

- The secondary arc that Titan was referring to was about subtexts of the game rather than votes on Breakfast. For example, accusatory questioning might mean that the questioner wants to sort a scumread or is scum trying to position towards "scumreading" a player. It is more the nature of questioning directed towards Breakfast than the number of votes on them.

- I don't believe that not wanting to answer questions has scum motivation especially as Titan has been engaging you. I think when you asked them in an abrasive manner (you are defacating), people would be less inclined to answer them seriously. Trying a different approach would probably help more.

[Titan]

Nacho I'd like to talk to you about Tammy.

Interesting.

I made you paranoid when i said I thought you were my strongest town read didn't I? I figured it would.

Caution. Wind. Woooooo.

[CarbonFiber]

Desperado hasn't been present enough to really get a feel there, not that I'm great at reading desperado anyway.

I am, trust me (for now).

Do you feel that MastinSSK's scumflip will influence your read on JSU?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

After our last games, it's taken me aback.

Empire has a handle on how my irritability manifests as town and I think he probably could explain it to other players.
1
The niggles have been there for a while, though.

I feel like scum should basically be sharks in the water smelling blood at this point. I may not be lynchable today, but I'm getting there. But that's not the only use a bleeding townie has in scum tactics.

[Titan]

Desperado hasn't been present enough to really get a feel there, not that I'm great at reading desperado anyway.

I am, trust me (for now).

Do you feel that MastinSSK's scumflip will influence your read on JSU?

I feel like if Mastin does flip scum so many things in the game will become clearer. (I also will yell at Cabd for making that scum must attack Tammy day one of any Tales game part of his contract.) Well some things might be clearer. There's so much noise around her slot that I'm not sure how easy it will be to figure out her partners. It was easy in AoT to figure it out because it all became pretty clear to me that at least one of Bro/Pasch if not both were scum with her scum flip. Here, it's not going to be so easy to figure out who's bussing/distancing/defending. I'll probably become convinced that the rancid pirates were, in fact, scum if mastin flips scum.

I feel like if Mastin flips town everything is going to turn into a bigger mess than it already is, but I'm having a hard time seeing her flipping town right now.

Ask me again in five minutes. I might change my mind.

I suppose the part of me that is bugged by JSU might calm down with a Mastin scum flip, though des is no stranger to bussing.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Mostly, I want reassurance that this fits how you absorb other playeres' styles.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - you seriously read PV as town? Really?

Like really?

What differences do you see in his play that weren't in the Board Game uPick that could point to PV-scum here?

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery opinion would help as well (and anyone else that was in that game).

[CarbonFiber]

My read on JSU is all over the place. It's what inspired the JSU!town wall from falcon. There are some things consistent with his town game such as discussing positionals or at least are consistent with how I've seen him scum hunt and what he talked about in the Wicked dead qt. But there are some things that are off that I can't quite put my finger on, including the melt down, which now I'm bringing up again and it makes me feel like shit to even question if it was real and if it was I'm going to feel like the most horrible person ever, but it conflicts with

I don't have a thought process. I have an inarticulate jumble I'm trying to untangle. I could post walls of paranoia and free association but I don't think this game thread needs it.

You guys can poke at me all you like. I doubt it will speed up what has become a Sisyphean effort at sifting out my thoughts about this game.

This would be extremely helpful actually. This game needs a fresh perspective and I'd much rather read a wall from someone who has been cagey for a while now as opposed to more walling from the usual wallers (Mastin/AP).

[Titan]

After our last games, it's taken me aback.

Empire has a handle on how my irritability manifests as town and I think he probably could explain it to other players.
1
The niggles have been there for a while, though.

I feel like scum should basically be sharks in the water smelling blood at this point. I may not be lynchable today, but I'm getting there. But that's not the only use a bleeding townie has in scum tactics.

It took me aback when I realized it too.

It might just be me adjusting for the several misreads. It could be me picking up on things that I can compare as a matter of tone or what have you or what empire has pointed out. I'm not going to pretend that the little things that I read people with are explainable when it's become a matter of me trying to figure out someone over a series of games.

It might just be a couple of those things combined with the way your viewing the game resonating with the way I'm viewing the game, and though you might be paranoid of me it gives me a touchstone of sorts.

I'm not too sure what the niggles are or what they could be. I feel pretty transparent this game or at least I feel like this isn't how I'd approach the game as scum. I might not be blindingly obvious town because I think there are some things I've done that are fakable, but a whole bunch that I think are less able for me to fake. I very seriously doubt I'd basically take the same approach with you I did in Red Wine as I'd find it much safer to be paranoid of you as it would correspond with recent games and not inspire paranoia though I can see why it would from your end. I would just think it would be something on my mind I'd try to be careful about.

Mostly, I want reassurance that this fits how you absorb other playeres' styles.

Ah.

[Titan]

Falcon - you seriously read PV as town? Really?

Like really?

What differences do you see in his play that weren't in the Board Game uPick that could point to PV-scum here?

Probably none. Who knows. i have no idea. But I don't really want to talk about PV right now as i'll just end up ranting about him being annoying especially if I have to really start referencing that game and I already feel bad for ranting earlier and I'm trying to be a nicer person and help make games less toxic and more pleasant, and I feel like poking that right now will not help.

He's not getting lynched today so it doesn't really matter right now anyway.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery opinion would help as well (and anyone else that was in that game).

One obvious difference between the games is that he wasn't basically trolling another player in the board game mini.

However the peregrine/titan wall-war started in this game, IMO that's what it's become, with a little trolling on both sides.

I don't recall seeing him do this in any game ever tbh, regardless of alignment. I've seen him hare off after will-o-the-wisps. I've seen him follow an unraveled thread into a dark cul de sac. I've seen him lurk and put basically zero in the way of solid reads into games. As scum, from the few games I've seen, he's more likely to pick a popular scum read and agree. As town he tilts at windmills if the notion takes him.

In the board game, despite winding up in some arguments with tammy-hadrian, he didn't tunnel and he wound up with a town read overall. I think morph-me was his strongest scum read in that game.

[CupcakePanda]

mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I don't know how a game could possibly reach almost 200 pages with only a single lynch. How is there that much to discuss anyways.

I'll just do this because

vote: peregrin

___________________________________________

As for Nacho's giant red text, it would be worth considering sheeping if his accuracy was any good.

[CarbonFiber]

Why is Pie confining himself to the neighborhood? Where is he? He had a decently strong start then zippo.

And you're probably right, I don't really trust your neighborhood.

It feels like wingate mansion when empire had his neighborhood with all scum, but he was shutting down any suspicion on them because they were so town and proactive in the neighborhood. When we came to massclaim Mara even tried to assert that the neighborhood didn't need to claim. It felt like different games were being played there too because their neighborhood was so weirdly played except we only had night talk in the neighborhoods there, so it's probably making it worse here.

Pie said in the neighborhood that he was falling behind and would come back and push for more votes on Mastin if they stopped coming.

Btw, I am adding Wingate Mansion to my to-read-in-detail list. I am still trying to parse through this and figure out how to communicate it all because I know where you are coming from not only with Wingate but I can also see how people in the Wicked neighborhood thought that Nacho and I were town and shut down suspicion at times from people outside.

In any case, it doesn't seem like we are lynching Desp-BRO or PV anyways so it should be more apparent later.

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

I have no idea how to answer a question like this or from what context you are bringing it up. I think I at least want all the active players on the same page as me (outside of the neighborhood, this is you, Titan, to some extent PV, and those in the neighborhood, I'm just interacting with them there). I have been trying to sync with the inactives as well when they show up but that's not very often. Like I said, if you are town, I want you on my side.

If I'm scum with Rancid, we keep our fucking strongest scum player alive during the night, not make them vanish overnight, exposing me to attack with nobody (aside from Mac, who ended up dead) to defend me.

I wondered what if they are not actually dead but may return to the game and vanishing for a day is a scum ability? But yeah, if you and Rancid are scum together, I don't think in most cases, you would want them janitored and that's not my issue.

I had a town read on bork and I kept it all of day 1. The deadline danse macabre made me worry about nacho, but it's really hard to see him calling attention to himself so blatantly, like in that string of posts where every post was a back and forth vote between two players. He could have redirected the lynch without making nearly such a spectacle.

In what ways did you find it markedly different from NY169?

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery opinion would help as well (and anyone else that was in that game).

One obvious difference between the games is that he wasn't basically trolling another player in the board game mini.

However the peregrine/titan wall-war started in this game, IMO that's what it's become, with a little trolling on both sides.

I don't recall seeing him do this in any game ever tbh, regardless of alignment. I've seen him hare off after will-o-the-wisps. I've seen him follow an unraveled thread into a dark cul de sac. I've seen him lurk and put basically zero in the way of solid reads into games. As scum, from the few games I've seen, he's more likely to pick a popular scum read and agree. As town he tilts at windmills if the notion takes him.

In the board game, despite winding up in some arguments with tammy-hadrian, he didn't tunnel and he wound up with a town read overall. I think morph-me was his strongest scum read in that game.

My read on PV isn't based on meta very much but I did follow Dark Age of The Law where he was scum with Nacho. He was mostly picking on low hanging fruit at that time. I was hard-scumreading CandleJack and felt PV was sort of moving in sync with him at times. I'll go back and check to see all the advice Nacho gave him just to be sure.

[Titan]

Falcon - Did you miss my question about what you thought of Nacho's posting today?

[CarbonFiber]

Was just getting to that.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - What did you think of nacho's posting today?

I thought his push on Mastin was good, but not outside anything scum-Nacho can't fake. He makes good points. I like 4213.

The "

I don't think Rancid was scum but Mastin is

" is an unconventional idea that resonated at some level because not many brought up that idea before but it does make sense if Muffin had a misread and Mastin was milking it for everything it's worth (and of course I buy that Mastin wouldn't janitor him). He'd want Muffin to flip town.

His response in 4391 to the 1v1 was pretty awesome as well. He hit the core of what I am having issues with Mastin about. He is thinking past the kind of tells that he would be expected to use.

I like his posting but there is so little of it so I wouldn't bank the game on it. What are you thinking?

[fferyllt]

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

I have no idea how to answer a question like this or from what context you are bringing it up. I think I at least want all the active players on the same page as me (outside of the neighborhood, this is you, Titan, to some extent PV, and those in the neighborhood, I'm just interacting with them there). I have been trying to sync with the inactives as well when they show up but that's not very often. Like I said, if you are town, I want you on my side.

Ok. I want to be correct. It's not enough to be town. It's not enough to be on another town player(s) side. That's not how games are won.

You and Tammy earlier talked about me being arrogant in other games about my reads and not listening to other players' opinions. I think that was an oversimplification but putting that aside look at your own play in this game.

There's nothing fundamentally WRONG with the way apparently town players have some strongly differing reads and concepts of how the game is unfolding. You want to push a consensus lynch today, but there's really no guarantee that a bunch of town players getting together with scum in their midst are going to come up with the right consensus answer. And that's not really what you want. What you want is for town to follow your lynch answer.

I probably should trust your reads more than I do, but there's something off about this game and I'm wondering if it has something to do with the effect of such a large neighborhood. You could all be town. you may very well all be town. But it's creating a gap in the game data.

I had a town read on bork and I kept it all of day 1. The deadline danse macabre made me worry about nacho, but it's really hard to see him calling attention to himself so blatantly, like in that string of posts where every post was a back and forth vote between two players. He could have redirected the lynch without making nearly such a spectacle.

In what ways did you find it markedly different from NY169?[/quote]

Remind me of anything so blatantly and simultaneously opaque and transparent as the huge run of posts that were nothing but binary switches between voting two players, before dropping a player and adding another.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

I have no idea how to answer a question like this or from what context you are bringing it up. I think I at least want all the active players on the same page as me (outside of the neighborhood, this is you, Titan, to some extent PV, and those in the neighborhood, I'm just interacting with them there). I have been trying to sync with the inactives as well when they show up but that's not very often. Like I said, if you are town, I want you on my side.

Ok. I want to be correct. It's not enough to be town. It's not enough to be on another town player(s) side. That's not how games are won.

You and Tammy earlier talked about me being arrogant in other games about my reads and not listening to other players' opinions. I think that was an oversimplification but putting that aside look at your own play in this game.

There's nothing fundamentally WRONG with the way apparently town players have some strongly differing reads and concepts of how the game is unfolding. You want to push a consensus lynch today, but there's really no guarantee that a bunch of town players getting together with scum in their midst are going to come up with the right consensus answer. And that's not really what you want. What you want is for town to follow your lynch answer.

I probably should trust your reads more than I do, but there's something off about this game and I'm wondering if it has something to do with the effect of such a large neighborhood. You could all be town. you may very well all be town. But it's creating a gap in the game data.

I had a town read on bork and I kept it all of day 1. The deadline danse macabre made me worry about nacho, but it's really hard to see him calling attention to himself so blatantly, like in that string of posts where every post was a back and forth vote between two players. He could have redirected the lynch without making nearly such a spectacle.

In what ways did you find it markedly different from NY169?

Remind me of anything so blatantly and simultaneously opaque and transparent as the huge run of posts that were nothing but binary switches between voting two players, before dropping a player and adding another.[/quote]

sigh

[PeregrineV]

@ PeregrineV

,

PeregrineV, I am unsure about Clyton but I am strongly townreading Titan and I don't think that their neighborhood activity is alignment relevant. For one, they've only had the neighborhood starting on D2 whereas we've had the neighborhood from D1 and had lots of time to talk through things. Also, for most of the time that Titan/Clyton neighborhood has been active, Clyton was on V/LA, Tammy busy, and I don't think Arthur checked in for a long time so I wouldn't read too much into it.

So, if you can explain your townread source on TammyTitan, I'd appreciate it.

I have been townreading Titan since D1 and it is mostly gut + feeling + meta. You seemed to have a townread too earlier so we are in agreement there. I'll address your concerns in this post.

Yes. And that was up until I did the iso to fact check.
The fact she was offended by that is not the Tammy meta I'm used to.
I gave 2 sample posts of Tammy tearing it up in Good v Evil.
I can't find any of her posts in this game that come close to doing that.
When I did the iso, I didn't see any transparency of thought like I expected.
That made me ask more questions. And just normally, not abrasively.
And she was offended again.
Net result, I'm not seeing the process of scumhunting from Tammy.

- I don't expect all neighborhoods to function the same way so I don't see anything concerning about them claiming in their neighborhood while we didn't in ours.

I consider enighborhoods a mini scumhunting venue to try to determine the alignment of the neighbors. Once you do, then you use it appropriately. Claiming when you are at L-1 or when you join a neighborhood seem like two distinct events that should not result in the same action (claiming).

- The secondary arc that Titan was referring to was about subtexts of the game rather than votes on Breakfast. For example, accusatory questioning might mean that the questioner wants to sort a scumread or is scum trying to position towards "scumreading" a player. It is more the nature of questioning directed towards Breakfast than the number of votes on them.

I feel like the questioning is "What do you think about X?" I expect it will be followed by "Why?" But other than that, I did not see the subtexts you are referring to. So I asked Tammy about them also. What posts did she see that? Maybe it's there and I need to see who is doing it, or maybe Tammy is reading it wrong. Given the spamriffic nature of this game, just going to look requires 2-6 real hours. So asking for directions to get somewhere and getting a face full of mud does not match my view of Tammy meta.

- I don't believe that not wanting to answer questions has scum motivation especially as Titan has been engaging you. I think when you asked them in an abrasive manner (you are defacating), people would be less inclined to answer them seriously. Trying a different approach would probably help more.

TO pretty much tell me I'm annoying. Which I don't care much, I hear that (and worse) all the time. Call me annoying, sure, but if

your

efforts are impeding

MY

efforts to get a read on you or someone else, I'm probably going to attribute scum motivation to that, since there isn't any reason for town to do it.

Only because I think your *actual obvious town* am I not pushing Tammy harder. Today. Probably.

[PeregrineV]

My read on PV isn't based on meta very much but I did follow Dark Age of The Law where he was scum with Nacho. He was mostly picking on low hanging fruit at that time. I was hard-scumreading CandleJack and felt PV was sort of moving in sync with him at times. I'll go back and check to see all the advice Nacho gave him just to be sure.

That was an awful game. I was scumreading my entire team but couldn't really afford to bus, ever.

Dark Age is my most recent scum game.
Fall of Gondolin most recent town game. (and Board game I replaced into-mini theme).

Old game are in sig. New games can be found by looking at my topics.

[Titan]

Brian - it doesn't matter if scum know what or where I am right now. Claiming had a potential upside and very little downside if he was scum as well.

Okay. It wasn't alignment indicative for me, I just thought it was weird. You two also have a QT all to yourselves, so it's no different from if it were a designed two-person neighborhood, in my opinion. And I'm also pretty sure the next time I claim to Desp in a neighborhood unprompted, he's going to tunnel the shit out of me.

Ah well. He claimed to me and his claim was pretty townish, there's just the every so slight paranoid hair standing up on the back of my neck but it's nothing too worrisome, so I claimed partly in return due to that, partly because even if he is scum it doesn't matter a whole lot and potential upsides/downsides available.

I'll claim to the entire thread. I don't care. Even without one vote on me. I'll claim. I don't care.

This. should. not. be. that. hard. to. understand.

ESPECIALLY, OH MY GODS, ESPECIALLY SINCE in the damn board game that you just freaking just played with me I wanted to claim day two and unprompted claimed day three.

Like oh my fucking gods.

(oh but here's these two posts from tammy from a game two years ago where she was awesome, probably not in any way feeling lost in that game, probably not, so sure yeah it's the total perfect meta game to compare to this game and not at all the game I just played with her in which she probably approximated the same approach to the game as she is in this game, so we'll ignore that game though my gods is it fucking similar, I'll just say she's not as good as this one game.)

yeah.

[PeregrineV]

I like his posting but there is so little of it so I wouldn't bank the game on it. What are you thinking?

He replaced Kagura. How has his posting in the neighborhood changed?