Mafiascum.net

Hi everyone, will be catching up and posting my thoughts in the next 24 hours.

Locke:
Could you describe your old avatar for me? Seems I've played with you before, but I usually remember people by their avatars.

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:

MacavityLock wrote:When had you ever mentioned me as a candidate for Raising? This is weird and out of the blue.

You were the first person I seriously considered to be raised period, so that was my very first post on suggesting who should be raised.

And you said it as if you had already provided reasons, which you hadn't. So, why me?

LynchMePls wrote:@Macavity SSBF's meta is definitely lots of FOS. I can't post to any games, because they are ongoing. It is my understand that we aren't supposed to link to ongoing games, correct? Hopefully my mentioning this is not breaking the rules, if it is, please go easy on me mod, I can't find any rule on page 1 saying not to do this.

Yes, don't do this, but thanks.

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:Ninja'd

Some of my last post sounds like parroting of Drippereth.

Why call this out?

xvart wrote:

@danakillsu -

danakillsu, 366 wrote:This only says "If he flips scum" (which btw, is pretty much impossible) "you're scum"

danakillsu, 383 wrote:

Do you mean "look who he claimed to be"? Why do you assume he's telling the truth?

No, I mean who he turned out to be. There's no way he's lying when he claimed whom he claimed without a C-C. Do you doubt his claim?

And how are you so certain that it is

impossible

for him to flip scum? Especially considering you were voting for him. His claim is guaranteed town how?

Agree with xvart. Why do I have reason not to doubt his claim? Why would I expect a counterclaim here even if he was scum? Fake claims in games like are standard practice, and Renly being one of them wouldn't shock me to my core.

Paranoia wrote:I did think it was bad; but since all I was basing my fos off of was one post, why vote someone based off of it? I usually wait until I have more reasoning beyond "I don't like this one possibly insignificant thing." before I vote someone. I'm also more laid back with my vote considering we have plenty of time to reach a decision; plenty of time to post and for scum to slip up in.

Not sure I understand the reason behind being so careful that early in the game.

Need to take a closer look at Kleedrac, but that AtE does look pretty awful.

I'd also like to hear more from Miku that isn't a complete tunnel.

I'm totally down with a Hand-wagon.

MacavityLock wrote:And you said it as if you had already provided reasons, which you hadn't. So, why me?

You have been contributing a fair amount to the game. So far, you have yet to drop a scum tell in this game. On top of that, you've been one of the more reasonable people in here and I like your scum hunting tactic. You're currently one of the people I'm considering raising if Mina doesn't get raised or if Mina starts to act less pro-town then she is right now.

MacavityLock wrote:Why call this out?

I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on, as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Agree with xvart. Why do I have reason not to doubt his claim? Why would I expect a counterclaim here even if he was scum? Fake claims in games like are standard practice, and Renly being one of them wouldn't shock me to my core.

I guess it's possible it's a fake claim. I have to admit that, obviously. And maybe it is considered by some to be probable. But from my perspective (not knowing the books really well) it seems like this is a pretty important character, and that a claim of him should not be taken lightly.

btw, anyone notice how scummy xvart is acting in relation to me? I make three excellent points (if I do say so myself) some of them with questions, and when he pops up again, he talks about only two things. One was my paranthetical statement in the first point, not the first point itself, and the other was my response to a point somebody ELSE made about my post. In other words, he never dealt with any of my three actual points. Talk about selective responses. Wish I could vote for both him and Kleedrac.

hasdgfas wrote:

Raivann wrote:I was Jon Snow in the mini and fakeclaimed I could get 1 kill with my Direwolf.

did you claim that the Direwolf was another player in the game? And that it got a kill when you died? Because that's what Richard's claiming. Not that he gets a kill.

Raivann wrote:

Raise: CrymeaRiver

I like his aggresive RVS play and he wants it.

What did you like about it? Why is wanting a double vote a good reason to give it to someone?

No, but it was an avenge kill nonethelss.

I agreed w/him and it seemed genuine. I feel like I can read aggressive players better.
No, not by itself. But you'd be surprised what you get just by asking for it.

Kleedrac wrote: At this point I believe I can't appeal to the usual sense of logic and reason as there are trains running on myself and Richard with no case but the logical case I built on CryMeARiver and the case Mikujin built on vezopiraka go completely unanswered in any way! No one has defended CMAR or Vez nor has anyone agreed and voted. But the random loose bandwagons on me and Richard just keep gaining unreasoned votes which no one appears to see as scummy?! I feel as though I'm playing this game in another language here, you play in a very different style than I'm used to. As for insulting me or questioning my age well not only was that unnecessary but it's pretty much guaranteed I won't be playing on this site again. Enjoy your game guys, when I flip town just kill the hydra thing and we'll call it even Note that from here on out I will only post to answer directed questions and won't be contributing more ammo onto your trains, thanks.

Call me a sucker, but I believe Kleedrac here. He seems to be genuinely pissed.

Hi all, been a little busy lately, but I'll get caught up and post within 24 hours.

RichardGHP wrote:Raivann, you have absolutely no right to call my claim BS with no reasoning. If you're going to attempt to tear my claim to shreds, at least say why. Jesus.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

How could I possibly know who Ser Loras is?
Like a special power I have?

Welcome Locke.

Rifka wrote:I like the DGBish intuition over logic. I think the aggressive style makes scum uncomfortable because they lack control. If their buddy gets fingered they cannot use logic to extract him from the lynch, and when they flail at the accuser it reveals them. At any moment they could go from snug as a bug to being under heat
Plus its a popular misconception if you dont post reasoning, you dont have any reasoning.

Funny that it works like a double edged sword when applied against Town. And of course it’s only a strong playstyle when people are willing to just blindly follow the ‘gut’ read. Too many players unwilling to follow along and the bandwagon, however accurately aimed it may be, and the heat just fizzles.

It’s also a misconception that people asking for reasoning behind votes is scummy, as most players aren’t mind-readers.

Muki wrote:I thought it best to make my case against the person I was most suspicious of rather than try to address every individual instance of suspicion I'd have come across in my 17 page read. I figured my most relevant thoughts would be the important ones to share.

So the player you found most suspicious happens to coincide with the player who (IMO) is by far the weakest link in the game, pure lurkers aside? At this point assuming we have a Vig of some sort I’d suggest vezo falls into pure VI territory and would be a logical vig target. He’s the type of player, as others have noted, that we are going to learn nothing useful from his lynch.

SSBF wrote:I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on, as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:

SSBF wrote:I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on, as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them.

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

In relation to any parroting comments, DethHydra and SSBF cross-posted, as would be obvious if you looked. Don't like either SSBF or Magna in this exchange.

Macavity Lock wrote:I'd also like to hear more from Miku that isn't a complete tunnel.

Like I said before, it was a long-winded catch up post and I didn't want to make it longer than it already was. That said, I wasn't trying to tunnel in on Vezo, just state my case out against him and provide the reasons for my vote against him, since he was at the height of my suspicious-persons list.

Another person who I've at least been raising an eyebrow at as I've perused through the last few handfuls of pages is danakillsu. He hasn't really contributed much, more or less just given his commentary and tossed a few votes and vague suspicions around. He's also flip flopped on a few things to go with the flow.

dana wrote:Also, obviously we want to give the vote to a mediocre townie rather than a smart person we're not sure about. I just don't know that we have a for-sure townie option.

His very next post follows up as:

dana wrote:I would be in favor

(of raising Drippereth)

. Drippereth is a good alternative to CMAR or axelrod. If a few people decided to raise Drippereth, I would definitely do it, although I would prefer to raise axelrod. My reasoning is that I have no reason to believe Drippereth is scum, and they are definitely experienced enough to handle a double-vote properly.

Italics added for context. It seems to me he'd rather just go with the flow of the masses than really try to put forth anything himself. Again, I say this as from what I've gathered the Drippereth hydra thing seems to be an intelligent player(s) as several players show him/her/it some reverence. I'm new here (and to the game; I'm one of the newbies Eddard mentioned previously) so I'm still trying to figure out who everyone is for the most part.

MagnaofIllusion wrote:So the player you found most suspicious happens to coincide with the player who (IMO) is by far the weakest link in the game, pure lurkers aside? At this point assuming we have a Vig of some sort I’d suggest vezo falls into pure

VI

territory and would be a logical vig target. He’s the type of player, as others have noted, that we are going to learn nothing useful from his lynch.

What makes you think that Vezo is simply a village idiot (I assume that's the VI thing)? At this point he hasn't really contributed a lot, but as I'm not familiar with him myself I can't assume he'll never give us anything we can glean knowledge from. I didn't like what he "contributed" and thought it scummy.

Italics added for context. It seems to me he'd rather just go with the flow of the masses than really try to put forth anything himself

Sorry, but your context doesn't seem to have any bearing on what you actually say about my raise vote. However, in the quote above, you're saying something about me that is true, but not conclusive. Sure, I voted along with other people rather than proposing my own candidate, but you have to ask yourself if my REASONS are good enough. And I have given my reasons, more than once. At this point in the day, I don't really think some new hand wagon is going to start and suddenly elect a different person. I think we're looking at Percy, Drippereth, or xvart as the Hand, and out of those, I choose Drippereth.

MacavityLock wrote:

MagnaofIllusion wrote:

SSBF wrote:I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on, as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them.

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

In relation to any parroting comments, DethHydra and SSBF cross-posted, as would be obvious if you looked. Don't like either SSBF or Magna in this exchange.

I agree with MacavityLock here.



Kleedrac needs more votes. I honestly don't understand what the hold up is.

I'm still getting caught up, but first I'm going to . No reason that vote should still be there.

Yes, this is a wall. But it's a tasty wall, made of gingerbread and chocolate, so dig in!

: I agree with your assessment of claimtime given the size of the game in a vacuum, but the point that is so crucial is the timing. It was far too early (in my opinion) to put anyone at L-1. Claims are for when there is a danger of hammering, and that set of alarm bells for me, rather than a desire to hear Richard's claim. I just do not agree that he "needed to claim to save his own butt". Also, the fact that you are now giving props to CMAR for starting the wagon is too much cognitive dissonance for my liking.

Also, as has been pointed out by xvart, defending another player is odd. Every time I have been defended by someone else in a game (twice now), the gallant defender has been scum. One is an ongoing game, but the other is this one, where Korlash's defence of me after his flip was a large contributing factor in my mislynch. It's proven to be a very good scumtell.

Kleederac's OMGUS on Drip and his severe AtE in this post are not points in his favour. I find Drip's main point against him (that his townread of Richard was strategic in nature) somewhat persuasive after re-reading the Richard wagon. Still, I want to see where his case against CMAR goes, and am witholding judgement for now.

:

danakillsu 324 wrote: It is very useful to other players to see where Dripp stands.

How so?
That is, tell me something you have learnt from their scum/town lists.

When questioned about his vehement support of the wagon on Kleedrac in every way but his vote, dana produces this case. I think the order here may be important, but I'm interested in hearing Kleedrac's reaction.

Also, I'd like CMAR to get in here and answer the question I put to him.

Not sure what to make of Unsight. I'm eager to hear more and develop my read.

: Hi! Thanks for replacing in! I stand by my original opinion on Richard's claim - it is confirmable, it relies on a second player, and is extremely unlikely to be fake. I don't like your vote, nor your Raise vote, or even your read on Kleedrac. Your vote in particular - "let's just kill him, if he's telling the truth someone else dies anyway" is extremely anti-town. Explanations, please - let's start with what exactly you like about the case against Richard.

Regarding Mikujin, I liked the case against vezopiraka - specifically, the calling out of vezo's opportunism.
What makes me think Mikujin may still be scum continues to be the Richard vote:

Mikujin 247 wrote:Hopping on the Richard bandwagon for now, 'til I have more time to read through the last few pages I've missed.

Unvote
Vote: Richard

And while I'm at it...

Unraise

'til I get to scan said pages and get a solid read on someone.

The issue I have is that Mikujin put Richard at L-2 with that vote, and yet unraised until he had time to read through the "last few pages". If anything should have been reserved until he had read through those pages, it should have been his vote on the Richard wagon.
: Do you have any other suspects on the Richard wagon than vez?

: You said you'd like to nuke the "tail end" of the wagon, and I do sympathise, but what do you think of the players who actually provided reasons for contributing to the Richard wagon?

For the record, my biggest suspects with respect to the wagon are dana (continuing to post while the wagon grows without commenting on it = scummy), Deer (meta point is weaksauce) and CMAR (even though it was the first vote, it was very antagonistic very early on, and there was no comment on the wagon much at all after that point - giving CMAR any credit here is dubious).
I find xvart, LynchMePlz, I doubt it, MagnaofIllusion and MacavityLock to be a lot less scummy - though I came to a different conclusion, I have a good idea of why they (say they) reached theirs.

: Who were you thinking of in post 420, aside from Drippereth? Do you believe this attitude is scummy, or do you think it hampers your scumhunting ability in some way?

: Is your argument that both Dana and Klee are scum, and that theirs is a distancing effort?


Hayker still hasn't posted. I'm still liking my vote.
If I had a second vote, it would go to either Migwelloni or vezopiraka; the former for an early, unreasoned L-1 vote after an incredible lurk before returning to lurker status, and vez for blatant opportunism and baffling inconsistency.
(As we may be dealing with multiscum, my suspicions of vez bear no consequences for my current thoughts on Hayker.)
After that it would be Mikujin and CryMeARiver, followed by danakillsu, Kleedrac, Raivann and SSBF in a big pile of weakish scumreads.


I have thought a lot about what is the towniest thing for the Hand to do, and I think I've reached a conclusion.



If I am raised to Hand, I will not use my second vote to vote for the same person. I will endeavour to use my second vote to more effectively scumhunt. I will only use my second vote to vote for someone I am already voting for if there is a danger of No Lynch and deadline is approaching. In other words, I will continue to insist on majority consensus, and I believe I am capable of using my second vote to good effect throughout the game by promoting multiple conversations and scumhunting efforts.

I continue to have a town read of xvart, and support him for Hand over Drippereth.

SSBF 393 wrote:@Anyone who has read Clash of Kings: Is Ser Loras more of a protagonistic character or a antagonistic character? I'm asking this because I don't have any knowledge of the book (Interested to read it, thought) and it could help the town out in the long run.

Protagonist and antagonist are labels that do not apply at all well to the Game of Thrones series. Ser Loras is an honourable and well-liked knight in most regards, but he is also a homosexual*, the lover and supporter of Renly Baratheon over Stannis and Joffrey in the War of the Five Kings (the other two kings, Robb and Balon, wanted to secede), and accused Catelyn Stark of commissioning the murder of Renly.

Flavour won't give us any hints until we see some flips; I sincerely doubt that Loras and Renly would be of opposing alignments, though.

* - This is a bad thing for a Knight of Westeros to be, in light of the social landscape of Westeros, and is a compromising secret. It is not a bad thing for you to be.

[fanboy]
Anyone who has not read the series is missing out on one of the best stories ever told. Masterful intrigue, engrossing setting, fascinating characters, shocking and epic and dark and intelligent. Read it now!
[/fanboy]

MacavityLock 460 wrote:

MagnaofIllusion wrote:

SSBF wrote:I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on, as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them.

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

In relation to any parroting comments, DethHydra and SSBF cross-posted, as would be obvious if you looked. Don't like either SSBF or Magna in this exchange.

I like this post. Nice catch.

Kleedrac needs to get here and post something.


I like how he played and I have a very strong town read on him.

MacavityLock wrote:

CryMeARiver wrote:Shat,

Unvote

Quickly analyzing bandwagoning reasons

I have a problem with the immediate unvote. Why do you assume he's telling the truth?

Did we ever get an answer to this question? After CMAR's aggressive play and key role in starting the (well deserved) Richard wagon, he insta-unvotes. Seems a bit odd given his earlier aggressiveness. I buy the claim, but it seems strange coming from CMAR. He was the first one on that wagon, seemed really proud of it, and then is the first one off, in 2 minutes no less. How can you even ponder if you believe the claim in 2 minutes? And he does nothing but lurk since then.

How so?
That is, tell me something you have learnt from their scum/town lists.

When questioned about his vehement support of the wagon on Kleedrac in every way but his vote, dana produces this case. I think the order here may be important, but I'm interested in hearing Kleedrac's reaction.

I have learned how they think of other players. That in itself is very important. People like vezopiraka can never come across as very townie because no one knows what they actually think, they just mindlessly follow the crowd.
If you're talking about the order of my points against Kleedrac, you're wrong about it being important. It's simply chronological.

Right, that was quite a lot to read through, so I'll avoid posting a super-wall and just go with my main thoughts:



dana: yes, my avatar was Bender from Futurama before. I believe we played together in Nik's Fire & Ice Mafia.

I believe Richard's claim and ability, as the flavour fits pretty damn perfectly. I'm not at all convinced it's pro-town, as this is a prime game for multiple scum factions. I also really disliked his 'so me pointing out one tiny little thing is scumhunting' response; I thought it was a very scummy attempt to excuse himself having a dig at Mina for what was actually a joke post.

Vez has basically spent most of the game either being completely nonsensical or voting for whoever appears to be a popular choice at the time. The problem is, he's been so baffling and consistently devoid of genuine analysis that it's impossible to tell if he's actually scummy.

Kleedrac does seem genuinely angry at the pressure but to counter Raivann, why can't scum be genuinely angry? I'd wager it's not the first time DGB has brought that kind of reaction out of scum. He certainly seems frustrated at the way we play around here, but I don't see how that's indicative of alignment. Scum don't like getting lynched either. His response to Drippereth in 354 is pretty scrambled as he manages to go from accepting responsibility for looking scummy to counter-attacking Drippereth with the feeble accusation that they're attacking too many people. Reads more like panicky scum to me, although it could be a townie a bit confused by how mafia's played here.

I find that Unsight has been picking up on scummy things that I agree with, but does not appear to be following up on players at all. Mina picked up on a similar thing here - it seems a bit like he/she? is spotting one scummy thing, declaring that player to be scum and then moving on. The lack of content doesn't help this, obviously, but I find the apparent lack of desire to question players or follow up on initial suspicion to be scummy.



I'd back a lynch on any of the above, but Unsight seems to me to be the most likely scum trying to coast, firing off some good points but not backing it up with genuine interest in the players they're attacking.

Also, Mina gives me the best pro-town vibes thus far, so I'm going to:

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:Just want to make this clear to everyone. I am not defending Benmage, I am just trying to find faults with I doubt it's case on Benmage.

Why would you even say this? You're simultaneously defending him and distancing yourself from him. If either one of you flips scum, I bet the other one is too.

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:

I will admit he did speculation about the set-up a bit, but a "whole load" is reaching. Plus it didn't get in the way of scum hunting that much.

I count six posts that are wholly or mainly setup speculation on a quick glance through. A whole load is subjective, but I'm quite sure that's way ahead of anyone else in the game. What kind of a defense is "it didn't get in the way of scumhunting that much" anyway? This sounds like a bit more than just pointing out the flaws in my case.

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:

Direct me to the posts where Benmage was rolefishing.

Ok, it's more of a flavorfishing if it can be called that, but I mean ISO 14 primarily. I found that pretty scummy.

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:

The dark blue line makes absolutely no sense and I cannot see how in the world it is possibly any form a scum tell. As a matter of fact, having some discussion in it early in the game was actually beneficial. This also makes you look very hypocritical, for you were discussing raising as well.

It's a question of quantity. I'm not saying discussion about raising is useless by any means, but it's not a substitute for scum hunting. I think I should have stated this more clearly, but I do find it scummy that the majority of a seemingly-active person's posts are mainly dealing with side matters. It stinks of a scum that tries to look like he's contributing but is really not.

Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:

I also disagree with the green line. Benmage has done more scum hunting then most people in this game, and especially more then the lurkers.

*shrug* ISO 20 seems to imply he has some point he's trying to prove, so I guess I might be blind to some of his strategies here. At the very least, he hasn't been open about his suspicions and has only made some vague fingerpointing toward Drippereth. More importantly, why do you think it's fitting to compare the contributions of one of the most active players to the contributions of a lurker? I would expect him to contribute more with several times the amount of posts.

Also, no comment on how he tried to threaten me to keep quiet?

MacavityLock wrote:Why hascow? Do we ignore DrModem's play? Also, weird that both picked out the same Raise candidates.

I pretty much am ignoring DrModem's play by now. He seemed like an overwhelmed newbie. There are better leads, and hascow has shown strong pro-town play.

As for the second point, it figures we would arrive to the same candidates because we used pretty much the same criteria.

RichardGHP wrote:He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Why would you think he knows who Ser Loras is? Because this sure sounds like you know more about him than you're letting on. I'm not asking you to tell us who he is, if you even know that, but if you know his alignment then you should at least say that much.

Kleedrac wrote:[At this point I believe I can't appeal to the usual sense of logic and reason as there are trains running on myself and Richard with no case but the logical case I built on CryMeARiver and the case Mikujin built on vezopiraka go completely unanswered in any way! No one has defended CMAR or Vez nor has anyone agreed and voted. But the random loose bandwagons on me and Richard just keep gaining unreasoned votes which no one appears to see as scummy?! I feel as though I'm playing this game in another language here, you play in a very different style than I'm used to. As for insulting me or questioning my age well not only was that unnecessary but it's pretty much guaranteed I won't be playing on this site again. Enjoy your game guys, when I flip town just kill the hydra thing and we'll call it even Note that from here on out I will only post to answer directed questions and won't be contributing more ammo onto your trains, thanks.

How are you being helpful in any way if you refuse to post unless you're being personally pandered to? You're completely worthless to town if you don't even contribute, and your extreme paranoia about people finding you scummy more than suggests that you are scum. Defend yourself or die.



I like Percy's approach to being Hand, and his latest post further cements him being town.

Currently the most pro-town player here. I really do like his high amount of contribuation to the game. Very strong player and has currently played a very towny game.