Mini 402: 8-Bit Theater Mafia - MOD ABANDONED


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Post Post #450 (ISO) » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:39 am

Post by AndrewS »

Sorry, I've been reading...it just frustrates me when people say "X is scum..." as if it's fact, it's been proven and that they are idiots for not going along with it. It doesn't really help anyone...
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Post Post #451 (ISO) » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:34 pm

Post by M4yhem »

Glork wrote:Er... as of the last vote count, only Mathcam and Sarcastro were voting you, and I can't confidently say that I think either of them are scum right now.
Yes, but Thok has also voted me at the start of the day and Andrew S has expressed suspicions of me. At least one of these people is lying Glork, so who is it? Or are the scum ignoring the wagon on me, do you think? What’s wrong with my case on Sarc?

AndrewS- Sometimes the truth is ridiculous

Yos-What’s wrong with voting Jdodge? He’s pretty suspicious. I’d vote him myself if there was enough content to make a case. Protecting somebody?

Sarc- I call bullshit on you calling bullshit on that. My experience tells me that scum can afford to act sure of themselves. I think you are a liar. And how in the hell can my posts in this game be an example of scum being uncertain when I know for damn sure that I’m a townie? It’s not an omgus vote; you only say that to discredit me.
Sarcastro wrote:[And what do you mean I haven't responded to anything you've said? Try post 398. Please stop pretending that people (specifically me and Mathcam) haven't made arguments just because you don't like the ones we've made.
Did you miss a page? I responded to 398. Go back and check.
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Post Post #452 (ISO) » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:12 pm

Post by Thok »

M4yhem wrote:Yes, but Thok has also voted me at the start of the day and Andrew S has expressed suspicions of me. At least one of these people is lying Glork, so who is it? Or are the scum ignoring the wagon on me, do you think? What’s wrong with my case on Sarc?
If you are town, I could see scum mostly ignoring the wagon on you. (For example, the wagon that lynched town you in Town of Suspicion was 5 town and 1 scum.)

I decided to take a look at Too Much Scum (Mini 330 is Mini Normal) to see what I remember of his play in that game. It strikes me as similar to his play here (he was town in that game also). So, I think I'm happy with my JDodge vote at the moment.
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Post Post #453 (ISO) » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:54 pm

Post by Sarcastro »

M4yhem wrote:Sarc- I call bullshit on you calling bullshit on that. My experience tells me that scum can afford to act sure of themselves. I think you are a liar. And how in the hell can my posts in this game be an example of scum being uncertain when I know for damn sure that I’m a townie? It’s not an omgus vote; you only say that to discredit me.
Well then obviously we disagree. I'm not sure it's worth it to debate this point, but I'd be rather surprised if the other people in this game would agree with your characterisation of scum over mine.

Clearly I'm implying that you're scum because you're exhibiting scummy behaviours. I'm not sure what kind of response you're looking for here.

And I'm not trying to "discredit" you. I'm saying that it's an OMGUS vote because that's what I think it is.
M4yhem wrote:
Sarcastro wrote:And what do you mean I haven't responded to anything you've said? Try post 398. Please stop pretending that people (specifically me and Mathcam) haven't made arguments just because you don't like the ones we've made.
Did you miss a page? I responded to 398. Go back and check.
Oh did you? All I could find was this:
M4yhem wrote:Sarc- Yes, I'm a bit all over the place today. I deny that makes me scum though. There are at least two other reasons for it. 1. Thok voted for me early in the day, putting me immediatly on the defensive and 2. Dean turned out to be scum, which leaves me feeling uncertain and unable to trust my own judgement in this game.
Basically, you just conceded that my characterisation of you was correct, but gave a couple excuses for why that doesn't make you scum. I didn't realise you wanted me to comment on them. What can I say except that I don't believe you?

Also, you specifically said that I hadn't responded to anything. Post 398 was quite clearly a response, so in any case, you
did
lie by saying I hadn't responded to any of your defense.
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Post Post #454 (ISO) » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:48 am

Post by Glork »

M4yhem wrote:
Glork wrote:Er... as of the last vote count, only Mathcam and Sarcastro were voting you, and I can't confidently say that I think either of them are scum right now.
Yes, but Thok has also voted me at the start of the day and Andrew S has expressed suspicions of me. At least one of these people is lying Glork, so who is it? Or are the scum ignoring the wagon on me, do you think? What’s wrong with my case on Sarc?
If I had to pick one of those four, I'd probably pick Sarcastro. I'm somewhat unsure about Mathcam right now. I'd have to re-read him before coming to any solid conclusions. Thok seems quite pro-town to me, and I find AndrewS somewhat unlikely to be scum, as much as his play has frustrated me.
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Post Post #455 (ISO) » Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:32 am

Post by warpdragon »

Sarcastro (AndrewS M4yhem Yossarian2)
M4yhem (Mathcam Sarcastro)
Jdodge (Glork Thok)

Not voting (Brewski, Jdodge)
Show
IS: Kiwis get to hunt the natives on Sundays
Tally: kiwis are the natives
IS: Thats the fun part

Mackay: Oh hey, I got sigged! :)

[size=75][i]Edited by Warpdragon[/i][/size]
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Post Post #456 (ISO) » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:50 am

Post by M4yhem »

Sarcastro wrote: Clearly I'm implying that you're scum because you're exhibiting scummy behaviours. I'm not sure what kind of response you're looking for here.
What I found confusing was that you seemed to be trying to convince
me
that scum are more likely to vote hop by using
my
behaviour as evidence. How on earth were you expecting that to work, exactly?
Sarcastro wrote: And I'm not trying to "discredit" you. I'm saying that it's an OMGUS vote because that's what I think it is.
What makes you think that? Why should I believe you?
Sarcastro wrote: Basically, you just conceded that my characterisation of you was correct, but gave a couple excuses for why that doesn't make you scum. I didn't realise you wanted me to comment on them. What can I say except that I don't believe you?
You could explain what about my explanations you find inadequate and what basis you have for thinking that I’m lying. What questions did I leave unanswered? What about my manner seems inauthentic?
Sarcastro wrote: Also, you specifically said that I hadn't responded to anything. Post 398 was quite clearly a response, so in any case, you
did
lie by saying I hadn't responded to any of your defense.
You’re just splitting hairs here, seriously.

Thok- If there is even one scum on my bandwagon, I’d prefer to find them before any of the others, since they’re a more direct threat to my safety. I’ll keep your point in mind though.

Glork- Good, then we agree. Vote Sarcastro! He’s scum for sure (probably)!

A late happy easter to you all.

A quick straw poll for everyone- are scum more likely to vote hop or are they more likely to stick mostly to one target for consistency?

And so I don’t get accused of false dilemma, other possible answers include: both outcomes are equal likely/ neither of those ever really happens/I finally found my other sock/shut up, you fool/I love you/ None or all of the above
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Post Post #457 (ISO) » Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:57 pm

Post by JDodge »

I would say the vote-hopping vs one target is mostly a playstyle matter and as such may vary greatly from person to person.
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Post Post #458 (ISO) » Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:26 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

M4yhem wrote: Yos-What’s wrong with voting Jdodge? He’s pretty suspicious. I’d vote him myself if there was enough content to make a case. Protecting somebody?
(shrug) Nothing wrong with voting him, I was just curious about the logic behind Thok's vote, it seemed a bit out of the blue.

So, you think he's pretty suspicious? Why?
m4yhem wrote: Thok- If there is even one scum on my bandwagon, I’d prefer to find them before any of the others, since they’re a more direct threat to my safety. I’ll keep your point in mind though.
That's...not an especally pro-town attitude. A scum that's voting for you is no more or less a threat to the town then a scum that's not voting for you. Trying to protect "your personal safety" by going after people attacking you is very counter-productive, and somewhat suspicious.
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Post Post #459 (ISO) » Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:52 pm

Post by Sarcastro »

M4yhem wrote:
Sarcastro wrote: Clearly I'm implying that you're scum because you're exhibiting scummy behaviours. I'm not sure what kind of response you're looking for here.
What I found confusing was that you seemed to be trying to convince
me
that scum are more likely to vote hop by using
my
behaviour as evidence. How on earth were you expecting that to work, exactly?
Did you stop to think that perhaps I was not trying to use those examples to convince you but instead emphasising the scummy behaviour I saw in you and AndrewS? Why would I try to convince you of something using examples of people that are not confirmed scum (except in the sense that you know that you're scum)?
M4yhem wrote:
Sarcastro wrote: And I'm not trying to "discredit" you. I'm saying that it's an OMGUS vote because that's what I think it is.
What makes you think that? Why should I believe you?
Do I need to go into detail here? I voted you. You voted me for a crappy reason. That pretty much screams OMGUS right there. What more do you want?
M4yhem wrote:
Sarcastro wrote: Basically, you just conceded that my characterisation of you was correct, but gave a couple excuses for why that doesn't make you scum. I didn't realise you wanted me to comment on them. What can I say except that I don't believe you?
You could explain what about my explanations you find inadequate and what basis you have for thinking that I’m lying. What questions did I leave unanswered? What about my manner seems inauthentic?
Do you need an essay on everything? I don't believe that Thok voting you and Dean turning up scum would make you act the way you have today. That's it.
M4yhem wrote:
Sarcastro wrote: Also, you specifically said that I hadn't responded to anything. Post 398 was quite clearly a response, so in any case, you
did
lie by saying I hadn't responded to any of your defense.
You’re just splitting hairs here, seriously.
No, I'm not. Here's a nice allegory:

M: I have never eaten an apple before in my life.
S: What? I see you eat apples all the time!
M: True, but I didn't eat one yesterday.

You said I didn't respond to
anything
you said in your defense. That is quite obviously untrue. In reality, the only thing I didn't respond to was one little paragraph. You said similar things about Mathcam's argument "not holding up under questioning", which was also completely untrue. Stop mischaracterising the arguments against you.
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Post Post #460 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:03 am

Post by M4yhem »

Yosarian2 wrote:
So, you think he's pretty suspicious? Why?
The constant lack of content. He doesn’t seem particularly interested in finding scum.
He promises content but doesn’t deliver.
Yosarian2 wrote:
Trying to protect "your personal safety" by going after people attacking you is very counter-productive, and somewhat suspicious.
Counter-productive how? The way I see it, I’m protecting the only member of the town whose alignment I’m 100% certain of. It’s not suspicious. I never want to be lynched, whether scum or town, because it never helps my side.
Sarcastro wrote: Do you need an essay on everything? I don't believe that Thok voting you and Dean turning up scum would make you act the way you have today. That's it.
An essay, no. A reason, yes. If you ever want me to unvote you, that is.
Why? Why don’t you believe? What is there to counter-indicate my assertion?

Anyway. I think Sarc is scum for sure now. He seems more interested in making me look bad than in finding out the truth.
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Post Post #461 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:02 am

Post by Glork »

M4yhem wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:
Trying to protect "your personal safety" by going after people attacking you is very counter-productive, and somewhat suspicious.
Counter-productive how? The way I see it, I’m protecting the only member of the town whose alignment I’m 100% certain of. It’s not suspicious. I never want to be lynched, whether scum or town, because it never helps my side.
It's a bad philosophy because it assumes that you and your role are more important than any other pro-town player/role in the game. The percentage chance of being pro-town is not the only deciding factor in how much you play for yourself. In fact, it's probably the least important factor, if you ask me. Yes, according to the numbers, you getting lynched as pro-town would hurt our chances. But it would also give us information that would make finding scums a lot easier. Instead of looking out for yourself and being completely self-preserving, I would strongly suggest that you broaden your horizons. For all we know, even if we assume that you are pro-town, all four people that you named could very well also be pro-town.

You've played a very self-centered game as a whole... first you claimed that your gut was always right (though you were completely wrong about DW), and now you're trying to justify the selfish "I just don't want to get myself lynched" play that is far more indicative of an SK or neutral role than any pro-town role I can think of.
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Post Post #462 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:10 am

Post by Sarcastro »

M4yhem wrote:
Sarcastro wrote: Do you need an essay on everything? I don't believe that Thok voting you and Dean turning up scum would make you act the way you have today. That's it.
An essay, no. A reason, yes. If you ever want me to unvote you, that is.
Why? Why don’t you believe? What is there to counter-indicate my assertion?

Anyway. I think Sarc is scum for sure now. He seems more interested in making me look bad than in finding out the truth.
I'm pretty sure the burden of proof is on you. Why would a single vote and the fact that you were wrong about Dean lead you to act scummy? I've currently got three votes on me and I certainly haven't panicked yet. I simply don't believe you; it's that simple.

I'm scum for sure? Why? Because I don't think that you're town? I'm not interested in making you look bad except in the sense that I'm pointing out your scummy play. Stop taking everything so personally. Even if you're town, is it not conceivable to you that someone could mistakenly think that you're scum? Honestly, your attitude just makes you seem even scummier.
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Post Post #463 (ISO) » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:04 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

M4yhem wrote: Counter-productive how? The way I see it, I’m protecting the only member of the town whose alignment I’m 100% certain of. It’s not suspicious. I never want to be lynched, whether scum or town, because it never helps my side.
Well, of course you don't want to be lynched, but besides what Glork said, my general attitude if I'm pro-town is that the scum voting for me don't really matter; they'll vote for me if they think they can get me lynched, or not if they think they can't, so a scum voting for me isn't really any different from a scum who's not voting for me. A good guy should try to avoid getting lynched by trying to convince the other good guys he's not scum, because no lynch can happen without at least some pro-town people on the wagon. OMGUS attacking of people who are attacking you is therefore completly counter-productive; if you OMGUS attack a scum, you won't be taken seriously unless you can back it up with good logic, and if you OMGUS attack a good guy, it'll just make him more convinced you're a scum. It's counter-intuitive, but you and the town are generally better off if you assume that most of the people attacking you probably are pro-town unless you have reason to think otherwise, and not letting emotions get in the way of that.

OMGUS attacks really only help scum or SK's who are trying to scare people away from voting for them, they're not an effective tactic for a pro-town player in almost any situation, they just tend to cloud the real issues, raise emotions, and break down logic. If you really think a person attacking you is scum, then vote for them, but only if you have other solid reasons to think so.
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Post Post #464 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:08 am

Post by M4yhem »

Glork- Bah. My way of playing isn't doing any harm. It's not like all I do is attack those who attack me; I've been looking for scum too. If you are really worried at the state of play in the game, how about going after the non-contributors? They are doing more harm than me, I'd have thought.

I don't remember saying my gut was always right. If I did say that, it was a mistake. My gut is almost always wrong.

Sarc- I think you are scum because you attacked Andrew S with so much passion and fevour, then a few days later you've seemingly forgotten about him and are attacking me with the same degree of certainty. It looks artificial. It looks like the way I play as scum. It's nothing personal on my part and the fact that you seem to be trying to make it seem that way suggests you are either not paying attention or you just don't care about the truth.

I have considered the possibilty you're a townie. Your attitude towards me suggests otherwise. I don't believe the things you say, it's that simple.

Yos- That's all fine and good, but I'm not actually omgusing Sarcastro. I have a proper reason for voting him which I gave at the time. Andrew's point against him is valid, I feel. It wasn't an emotional reaction; he just seems like scum.

Can we have a
modprod on Brewski, JDodge and Andrew S
please mod?
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Post Post #465 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:08 am

Post by Thok »

M4yhem wrote:Glork- Bah. My way of playing isn't doing any harm. It's not like all I do is attack those who attack me; I've been looking for scum too. If you are really worried at the state of play in the game, how about going after the non-contributors? They are doing more harm than me, I'd have thought.

I don't remember saying my gut was always right. If I did say that, it was a mistake. My gut is almost always wrong.
You realize that Glork is voting one of the noncontributors?

Also, you claimed your gut is always right when you voted me day 1 when the DW lynch was going down.
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Post Post #466 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:41 am

Post by Sarcastro »

M4yhem wrote:Sarc- I think you are scum because you attacked Andrew S with so much passion and fevour, then a few days later you've seemingly forgotten about him and are attacking me with the same degree of certainty. It looks artificial. It looks like the way I play as scum. It's nothing personal on my part and the fact that you seem to be trying to make it seem that way suggests you are either not paying attention or you just don't care about the truth.

I have considered the possibilty you're a townie. Your attitude towards me suggests otherwise. I don't believe the things you say, it's that simple.
Wouldn't it make more sense to compare it to
my
play as scum than
your
play as scum?

You think my play is artificial? Because I changed my mind and decided that you were scummier than AndrewS? I haven't forgotten about him, you're simply scummier right now and there doesn't appear to be any point in going after him at the moment.

I
don't have any regard for the truth? You're the one who continuously tells blatant lies about the people who are voting you ("Sarc hasn't responded to anything! Mathcam's argument didn't hold up to questioning!"). You OMGUS me and then attack me for implying that you're taking things personally?

The fact that you can be so sure I'm scum based solely on the fact that I'm voting for you (you have yet to give a single good reason that I can see) is staggering. Scum always vote M4yhem and townies never do. What a game-breaking ability.

I'm sick of arguing with you about this, especially when nobody else seems to even care. I get into too many of these one-on-one battles when I'm town, it seems.
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Post Post #467 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:43 am

Post by Glork »

Thok wrote:You realize that Glork is voting one of the noncontributors
/scumbags
?
Fixed.
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Post Post #468 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:44 am

Post by Sarcastro »

Oh, I'd also like to point out that you never answered my question about why Thok's vote and Dean's role would completely change your play today. You seemed to be pretty insistent that I had to explain why they wouldn't, so I find it interesting that you've decided to forget about them once I asked you for
your
reasoning.
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Post Post #469 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:08 am

Post by JDodge »

Alive. Watching arguement between Sarcastro and Glork. Sarc slightly more suspicious. Nothing else changed.
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Post Post #470 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:31 am

Post by Glork »

Er.... Sarc and I haven't been arguing with each other.



Confirm Vote: JDodge
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Post Post #471 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:33 am

Post by JDodge »

I meant to say Sarc and M4yhem. Sorry.
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Post Post #472 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:31 am

Post by mathcam »

Not much to say here: I still think Mayhem is the scummiest, and the last fe pages have largely been a discussion of playstyles and hypotheticals. I'd put Sarcastro at the mid-region of my scumometer, but I'll concede he'd be interesting as an information lynch.

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Post Post #473 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:00 am

Post by Thok »

mathcam, what do you think of JDodge, Yos2, and brewski?
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Post Post #474 (ISO) » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:41 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

JDodge wrote:I meant to say Sarc and M4yhem. Sorry.
Why did you change your mind about sarc? You were just saying a few posts ago you thought he was pro-town.

fos:Jdodge
Getting a bad feeling from his last few posts; don't like his origional vauge statements followed by him following me and mayhem into "suspecting" sarc for equally vauge reasons.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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