Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)

[The Fonz]

@Anatole:

why are you trying so hard to justify what was clearly an effortless throwaway vote at the time on what was clearly an effortless throwaway vote?

Well, because what I'm saying is the truth. Duh. It was a reasoned vote ON an effortless throwaway vote, because I felt that making an effortless throwaway vote at the point FT did was the scummiest thing in the game to that point.

Would you care to evaluate my/Baboon's reason for thinking Lissa town?

Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them, having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist, and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town. Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.' Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

Oh yeah. Honey Bee's entry post was also terrible, but I'm having trouble reading alignment from it due to massive OMGUS feeling. Seriously, it sucked.

It absolutely is relevant. It goes to mindset. It's not a lesson about particular players, it's a lesson about guilty mindsets. Scum tend to believe things like that because they're scum and when it could be about them they don't often betray the same amount of distrust as a town does in that situation.

This. Although 4T did state that he didn't remember who it was who had claimed knowledge of there being scum there. That might be enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. Baboon's posts read a lot more like I would expect town to react in that scenario: noticing the lack of said information in their own role PM, wondering if it were a reaction test etc. It seems to me, as a town neighbor in that situation, the possibility that one and only one it would at least look

kinda weird

to me.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Anatole:

why are you trying so hard to justify what was clearly an effortless throwaway vote at the time on what was clearly an effortless throwaway vote?

Well, because what I'm saying is the truth. Duh. It was a reasoned vote ON an effortless throwaway vote, because I felt that making an effortless throwaway vote at the point FT did was the scummiest thing in the game to that point.

Would you care to evaluate my/Baboon's reason for thinking Lissa town?

Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them, having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist, and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town. Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.' Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

Oh yeah. Honey Bee's entry post was also terrible, but I'm having trouble reading alignment from it due to massive OMGUS feeling. Seriously, it sucked.

Your reasoning for Lissa makes sense. It's not a sure thing, but it's better than we have for 4T or baboon. Info like that from the neighborhood needs to be shared with town 100% of the time. If there's scum in the neighborhood (which there likely is) then they have more information than town does when you guys aren't upfront. Just saying "she is town for neighborhood stuff" doesn't tell us shit. So thank you guys for clearing that up.

I like that explanation on your vote as well, so thank you for that too. So you think 4t is most like the neighbor scum? Do you think that Lissa or babs is next if you're wrong?

[FourTrouble]

Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them, having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist, and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town. Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.' Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.

Fonz, your facts and assumptions are wrong. Here are some issues/questions.

1. I never whined about you not answering my question. I noted that I wanted the question answered but I didn't ever cite your lack of answer thus far as a problem.

2. The question I asked Baboon -- why a certain behavior they called scummy was scummy -- was to get a better grasp on their alignment. The idea was to see how much depth there was to their reasoning. They're saying I plagiarized and therefore I'm scum. I'd expect town to have considered, at least briefly, whether plagiarizing is scummy. The question was to determine whether they considered that. Personally, I don't think plagiarizing is scummy, so I'd like to know how they're connecting that behavior with a higher probability that someone is scum. What's the inferential chain? You said this discussion would be "anti-town," right? How would it be anti-town? Is there some pro-scum effect that outweighs the insight to Baboon's alignment from their answer?

3. You're saying I'm scummy for "saying" I'm paranoid about Baboon and you, right? What would a paranoid townie do? Not saying anything? I don't see how this behavior -- being paranoid and telling others about that paranoia -- is scummy.

4. Initially, I didn't have a problem with your vote on me. It was only AFTER your post about Lissa, and in the CONTEXT of that post, that I took problem with your CONTINUED vote on me. So your "FT isn't considering motives behind my vote for him" is kinda irrelevant. What's relevant is your non-committal stance towards Lissa, while voting me for NO reason.

5. You're saying I'm scummy for providing a scumlist without reasons, right? But didn't you vote for me without proving any reasons? Don't town vote and provide scumlists without reasons all the time? Is there anything inherently scummy about that? What's the problem there?

[FourTrouble]

Vote: Baboon

[FourTrouble]

Fonz, have you considered the "actual town motive" or "potential scum motive" for giving a scumlist without reasons?

[FourTrouble]

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

[Baboon Pride]

Anatole - hi! You should start checking westeros boards as we're actually starting to play again. I don't get your scum read on baboon. Does knowing that it's Mara who played in time shift two change your perception at all? (Or did you already know that?)

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

Uhmwat?

Hydra was anything but passive/reactive, and I was proactive until I stopped caring about the game, to which point I proddodged, then eventually got placed out?

[Cutty Shark]

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

This is armchair meta and inherently not accurate, much less sheepable. Qualify this with some examples or I'm dismissing this as confbias. I'd like to hear from both FT and AK on that. I think meta has a place, but I am generally uncomfortable with people just skimming a one game and seeing the answer they want to see and deciding that's good enough. It's not.

I don't think proactivity/reactivity is a scumtell.

In fact most of this game is just really reachy cases on people and I am disinclined to vote a major wagon right now and can't get a really proper foothold about what the interaction between FT/BP is other than the generic 'it's probably not SvS'.

@Honey bee: I don't think there was anything scummy about Fonz' interaction with Lissa in #49. It's not a hedge, it's a tempering of a read due to extenuating circumstances. The hesitance to vote point = scummy is weak (not only because that's not true) but also because he did vote in that post, just for someone else.

Flubber's entrance still sucked donkey balls.

-b

[Anatole Kuragin]

ISO Ms. Marangal in that game, ISO your posts in this game. Completely different tonally.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.

This is armchair meta and inherently not accurate, much less sheepable. Qualify this with some examples or I'm dismissing this as confbias. I'd like to hear from both FT and AK on that. I think meta has a place, but I am generally uncomfortable with people just skimming a one game and seeing the answer they want to see and deciding that's good enough. It's not.

I don't think proactivity/reactivity is a scumtell.

b

I agree - that's my point. She's reaching so hard for a scumtell that she is calling her townplay scummy. It's cognitive dissonance.

[Cutty Shark]

That's only true if she is aware that her play in that game was in fact reactive (and even agrees with that sentiment, to boot)

-b

[Anatole Kuragin]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=20464

[Anatole Kuragin]

Anatole - hi! You should start checking westeros boards as we're actually starting to play again. I don't get your scum read on baboon. Does knowing that it's Mara who played in time shift two change your perception at all? (Or did you already know that?)

Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.

VOTE: Baboon Pride

Uhmwat?

Hydra was anything but passive/reactive, and I was proactive until I stopped caring about the game, to which point I proddodged, then eventually got placed out?

I can't really argue with your mindset or whatever in the game, just what I saw. The majority of the game you were passive though.

[FourTrouble]

This is armchair meta and inherently not accurate, much less sheepable. Qualify this with some examples or I'm dismissing this as confbias. I'd like to hear from both FT and AK on that. I think meta has a place, but I am generally uncomfortable with people just skimming a one game and seeing the answer they want to see and deciding that's good enough. It's not.

I usually don't put much stock in meta either, but here's what stuck out to me just from skimming:

Either you're scum or you're the worst townie ever, either way, town can't survive while you

I have proof otherwise, we both do. If you want to get me lynched, I suggest finding actual scum motivation or, at least try to. I'm well aware of how easy it is to latch on to the shinest thing, as scum though!

This is Mara's first post in the game.

This is Mara's second post in the game:

God, seriously?

W/e, didnt really plan on doing much until jeesh slot got lynched

Which is about 700 posts later. And explicitly says she's not playing proactively.

But you're right, confbias is real, and I'm a terrible meta reader anyway, so definitely not a reason to sheep me. If you're gonna vote Baboon, I'd hope it's for better reasons than this.

[Cutty Shark]

I'm not doing your work on this for you.

Also this is more posts from her in the same game. Did you even realize this?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=23740

-b

[Cutty Shark]

This is Mara's first post in the game.

This is Mara's second post in the game:

yeah wrong

-b

[Anatole Kuragin]

she was part of a hydra in that game before branching off alone

[Anatole Kuragin]

Even on the hydra, it's mostly bickering with mollie rather than actively pushing people.

[FourTrouble]

Ah, I misinterpreted. I was just taking a quick look, didn't investigate further, but Anatole's analysis seemed right from what I saw.

[Baboon Pride]

uhm...

I was in a hydra prior to that. Forgetting about that hydra, and last post made.

[Cutty Shark]

she was

pushing

mollie

this took me 30 seconds to discern

-b

[Anatole Kuragin]

also, kaze claimed the majority of the posts in that game anyways

Nobody else in that game thought it was anything but bickering.

[FourTrouble]

I'd like to hear more from inactives... Flubber, Honey, Ree, etc.

[Cutty Shark]

God I can always count on mollie to hydra slip

that's the only reason I even knew which slot was hers

-b

[Cutty Shark]

So looks like the mollie slot was town and people were townreading her and ignoring mara's scumread

So if you want to marginalize that to 'bickering' then sure

-b