Mafiascum.net

Scout what do you think of your partner? And Parama pair

In post 4499, inspectorscout wrote:How can you describe a townie tone? It's there or it isn't.

Huh? What in the world is your understanding of "townie tone"? To me, townie tone can be things like:

- this person is super relaxed and free-flowing
- this person is arguing a point in a way that makes me think they're both emotionally and intellectually engaged in what they're doing
- this person has expressed through their posting emotions like suspicion, pride, paranoia etc, and that is consistent with what I'd expect from what they've been saying and doing if they were a villager
etc.

or to slice out another one of my IC points (quoting an exceptionally good tone-reader, and one of the very best players I've ever played with):



So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

In post 4499, inspectorscout wrote: If pie was really convinced you were scum, why wouldnt she leave when you were the one saying leaving is antitown?

This question doesn't make sense (possibly just because it was poorly worded). Let me try:

1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

The first is easy enough to answer, because it would presume that she could survive my pressure at least long enough to achieve another mislynch or two (correct in that hypothetical given that the day ended with shadow-maria dying).

The second would presume, I guess, that she thought that I, as scum, would be lying about theory? Or that she'd disagree with it? Given that one of the points I was practically screaming about was that if she really was town who believed I was scum, she should be voting me (and, fwiw, it absolutely seemed to me at the time like she was making excuses as to why she wasn't voting me [and if dunn is town, lol him forever for his "I bet smith is just trying to pretend to suspect pie here for the town credit" bit] ). So I guess the question is, what do you think of her discussion of what she was doing? Why do you feel it's non-credible? I've come to a read on her based on our back and forth, and am fairly comfortable that it's probably the correct one.

In post 4500, Dunnstral wrote:Scout what do you think of your partner? And Parama pair

I have this interesting article for you
It's called my ISO
fun guaranteed.

In post 4501, mhsmith0 wrote:So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

In post 4501, mhsmith0 wrote:1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

I'm nervous.

In post 4488, Kagami wrote:

In post 4475, pieguyn wrote:I really do not think I should keep being paranoid of you here but jesus fuck, I can't help it because pairing with a partner (and doing literally anything but what me/mhsmith did here) is probably exactly what I'd do in this setup.

I'm pretty confident that scum-scum pairing is optimal in a Large Dance unless it would be awkward to engineer, or there's someone in the list who you are confident would correctly scumread you.

this makes me happy to see, mostly just because I felt the same way soon after I first saw the large dance setup and now I know for sure that I haven't just been completely crazy to think it was optimal this whole time.

In post 4503, inspectorscout wrote:

In post 4501, mhsmith0 wrote:So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

In post 4501, mhsmith0 wrote:1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

wrt tone, you can't point to specific posts that substantiate your tone read, and you can't actually even talk through what you mean, and you seem to have zero motivation to try. So when a while back ago I called you scum or intellectually lazy town, guess what, it looks like I was right. If you want to be taken seriously, try thinking through what you mean and why you're saying it. I get that this is hard, but this isn't your first rodeo and you shouldn't be struggling to explain what you mean about something relatively straightforward like this. Of course that only applies if you're town; I guess if you're scum keep doing it since it's apparently working.

Also, are you just skimming my posts? Because I clarified what I thought your questions MIGHT mean, and then actually answered them from either interpretation. Like, this is really really obviously what just happened. Why aren't you actually looking at what I said?

actually never mind, I skimmed over Parama's post where they said they'd do stuff tonight so I'll wait.

In post 4506, mhsmith0 wrote:

In post 4503, inspectorscout wrote:

In post 4501, mhsmith0 wrote:So when you say "townie tone" and then just dump off an empty "how can I describe it, it's there or it isn't", I have no idea at all what you're talking about. I almost think you're just saying that kagami was just saying a bunch of reasonable-sounding things without being weird about it (admittedly just a guess since you can't or won't explain your read), which is, just so you know, just about the easiest thing in the world for a wolf to fake.

I can't explain tone, just like I can't explain gut. It doesn't have anything to do with the content, it's something else. If you have a problem with that, too bad. I don't care.

In post 4501, mhsmith0 wrote:1) If pie was scum, why wouldn't she leave if she knew I was town and I'd said (possibly convincing her) that leaving was antitown
2) If pie was town thinking I was scum, why wouldn't she leave, given that I was saying it was anti-town?

Are you asking questions to look busy or something? The more questions you ask, the less they make sense.
1) she wouldn't leave because it's inherently against her wincon.
2) that's exactly the point made by kagami.

wrt tone, you can't point to specific posts that substantiate your tone read, and you can't actually even talk through what you mean, and you seem to have zero motivation to try. So when a while back ago I called you scum or intellectually lazy town, guess what, it looks like I was right. If you want to be taken seriously, try thinking through what you mean and why you're saying it. I get that this is hard, but this isn't your first rodeo and you shouldn't be struggling to explain what you mean about something relatively straightforward like this. Of course that only applies if you're town; I guess if you're scum keep doing it since it's apparently working.

Also, are you just skimming my posts? Because I clarified what I thought your questions MIGHT mean, and then actually answered them from either interpretation. Like, this is really really obviously what just happened. Why aren't you actually looking at what I said?

I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

hang on a second.

does Dunn/Jester/SAD make sense? I think Kagami suggested this earlier but ugh I need to look at it again because if mhsmith is town and HS/Parama is town then the HS/Parama lynch is a game throw.

*sigh*

In post 4508, inspectorscout wrote:I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

Well your reason for TRing kagami is really shitty if you can't even be bothered to try and understand and explain it. "It's just gut" - what a perfect way to say something that no one can engage with in any kind of substantive or useful manner.

And lo and behold, I lose interest with people who can't be bothered to read what I actually have to say pretty fast, especially when they twist it into "lol smith asking dumb questions". Especially since a few paragraph response is hardly what I'd consider a wall.

I don't think jester really makes sense with Dunn, if for no other reason than Jester's choice of putting me as a scumread and dunn as a townread in his readslist.

Dunn-SAD-scout was one of the exotic sets I was thinking about, but that seems unlikely.

In post 4511, mhsmith0 wrote:

In post 4508, inspectorscout wrote:I said what I have to say about tone. If you can't live withit, feel free to ignore it. I know what I'm saying, why I'm saying it. I just can't explain it. Explain gut? It's like that for me. I also don't think I have a responsibility to clarify things I can't clarify, especially not to people that I want dead.

If you ask me a question, please do so clearly. I lose interest in walls with a bunch of rethorical questions pretty fast.

Well your reason for TRing kagami is really shitty if you can't even be bothered to try and understand and explain it. "It's just gut" - what a perfect way to say something that no one can engage with in any kind of substantive or useful manner.

And lo and behold, I lose interest with people who can't be bothered to read what I actually have to say pretty fast, especially when they twist it into "lol smith asking dumb questions". Especially since a few paragraph response is hardly what I'd consider a wall.

Although I said more than just tone?

Okay, you wrote a paragraph. You asked quite a few questions. Which ones are important for me to answer?

Also note that I will sleep now, so you won't get a reply within 3 minutes.

PS Lessons in Tone Reading for Dummies:

Smith just made a few posts that shows he's gotten frustrated with scout's continued refusal to be transparent or useful. This is:

1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct. Most of you won't know for sure until after I'd flip, but the answer is actually obvious. Unless you think I'm really good at faking villagery tone as a wolf (which is news to anyone who's seen me wolf). Note how that is an ACTUAL substantiated tone read, explained and everything (blah blah blah wifom self defense blah blah blah). Amazing how that actually works.

In post 4515, mhsmith0 wrote:1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct.

75% I like my odds

But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

In post 4514, inspectorscout wrote:Although I said more than just tone?

Okay, you wrote a paragraph. You asked quite a few questions. Which ones are important for me to answer?

Also note that I will sleep now, so you won't get a reply within 3 minutes.

Acutally in 4501 I asked ONE question. For you to substantiate your tonal read (I suppose I also asked you to substantiate in general what you think townie tone is, although that's mainly a sub-question). The two listed "questions" (#s 1 and 2) were very obviously rhetorical questions designed to substantiate my response to your (poorly worded) question. they weren't looking for answers from you, they were themselves part of an answer TO YOU.

PS in 4506 I asked why you weren't reading what I said to which you basically responded "because I'm lazy". So you don't need to answer that one again.

In post 4517, inspectorscout wrote:But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

Anger is easy to fake. Frustration less so but it's doable. And tone is emotion, that's kind of the whole point. Anger, surprise, arrogance, frustration, paranoia, those are all emotions that come through as part of tone. If you want to tonal read someone, read their emotions, see if what they're feeling is consistent with what they ought to be feeling in a situation as a villager.

"Genuineness" on the other hand - now that's more of a buzzword than anything substantiated. Genuine what exactly? Genuine belief in the case being pushed? Genuine confidence in being correct? Genuine nervousness about being wrong? "Genuine" can mean all sorts of things, "genuine" without any explanation or clarify is itself empty.

In post 4516, Dunnstral wrote:

In post 4515, mhsmith0 wrote:1) Because Smith is town and is actually frustrated with scout
2) Because Smith is a wolf and is simply trying to imitate what he'd do as town (which would probably come across as fake somehow btw)
3) Because Smith is a wolf and is fake interacting with his teammate
4) Because Smith is a wolf and some other explanation

One of these answers is correct.

75% I like my odds

Shit posting instead of actually dealing with the substance of the post. Congratulations: if you're town you are consciously choosing to be a burden to your team. Good work.

In post 4515, mhsmith0 wrote:Unless you think I'm really good at faking villagery tone as a wolf (which is news to anyone who's seen me wolf).

yeah OK so since you brought this up I want to talk about this.

a lot of the reason I just don't see mhsmith as scum here is that from what I've seen of him, he's on record as a player who doesn't like playing scum and used to think his scum game was abysmal and that it was something that he needed to improve upon. as someone who is basically the same in terms of just not liking playing as scum, I was in this exact spot like 2 years ago and I know just how hard it actually is for someone who just can't put their heart into scum games to keep their engagement up and actively stay invested in the game and (most importantly) fake the emotional state that they usually get into when they're town. I've improved my scum game a lot since then and I've gotten better at faking engagement, but I'm still just never fully "there" when I'm scum and mhsmith definitely seems "here" this game. the interaction with me D1, he seemed "here", his play this game day he seems much more "here" than his play early D1 which initially caused me to suspect him.

so like... yeah, maybe he just played a really good scum game, but do I feel any confidence getting him unless it's like Parama is scum and it's our pair vs. SAD's pair at a 4p endgame? not really.

I'm just terrified.

In post 4501, mhsmith0 wrote:The second would presume, I guess, that she thought that I, as scum, would be lying about theory? Or that she'd disagree with it?
...
.So I guess the question is, what do you think of her discussion of what she was doing? Why do you feel it's non-credible?

4 questions.
The first: not a real question.
Second: not a real question.
Third: answered this before, multiple times.
Fourth: see above.

Ask again.

Let's imagine dunn is scum, scout is scum, kagami is town. Who do you think is most likely to be scummo #3?

In post 4519, mhsmith0 wrote:

In post 4517, inspectorscout wrote:But frustration is something different from tone, imo.
Frustration and anger can be easily faked. Genuineness not.

Anger is easy to fake. Frustration less so but it's doable. And tone is emotion, that's kind of the whole point. Anger, surprise, arrogance, frustration, paranoia, those are all emotions that come through as part of tone. If you want to tonal read someone, read their emotions, see if what they're feeling is consistent with what they ought to be feeling in a situation as a villager.

"Genuineness" on the other hand - now that's more of a buzzword than anything substantiated. Genuine what exactly? Genuine belief in the case being pushed? Genuine confidence in being correct? Genuine nervousness about being wrong? "Genuine" can mean all sorts of things, "genuine" without any explanation or clarify is itself empty.

Frustration is a shade of anger. It's not hard to fake - just get into pointless arguments and it comes for free. Like these.

Genuineness = believing in what you are doing
It's hard to put under words how exactly you can see that, which is what I'm telling you.