Death Curse

[MURDERCAT]

Well scum want to look like they are doing something, you can't just sit around all game.

Idk Lapsa got by without too much trouble.

I mean I did have an SR there so at least my logic is consistent

[UNOwen]

I mean I did have an SR there so at least my logic is consistent

Not your top scum read though, there was no appetite for his demise. I'd say scum has every incentive to just find a tunnel and wait it out unless it looks like one of them is being lined up. If Pooky wanted to just sit on Taylor all day and then compromise at the last second, or watch as everyone else compromises at the last second then I doubt he would have taken too much flack for it.

[MURDERCAT]

Not your top scum read though, there was no appetite for his demise. I'd say scum has every incentive to just find a tunnel and wait it out unless it looks like one of them is being lined up. If Pooky wanted to just sit on Taylor all day and then compromise at the last second, or watch as everyone else compromises at the last second then I doubt he would have taken too much flack for it.

Well if I'd been scrolled I was planning on shooting there. Anyway, is the point that Pooky decided to vote earlier so he is town?

[UNOwen]

Well if I'd been scrolled I was planning on shooting there. Anyway, is the point that Pooky decided to vote earlier so he is town?

The point is that lazily joining the Fred wagon is not very scummy, and that the scum didn't need to push the Toogeloo wagon either unless Taylor is actually scum (and probably not even then). I think the tone of his posts mean town though.

[Tayl0r Swift]

yea im sure bell and I with our 600 posts each are the people who are non-presences and not the lurkers who haven't broken 100 yet.

well most of your posts are fluff. and you had disappeared for a while. you spammed a ton on day 1 but were quiet today

[MURDERCAT]

Well if I'd been scrolled I was planning on shooting there. Anyway, is the point that Pooky decided to vote earlier so he is town?

The point is that lazily joining the Fred wagon is not very scummy, and that the scum didn't need to push the Toogeloo wagon either unless Taylor is actually scum (and probably not even then). I think the tone of his posts mean town though.

How many scum do you think are on toog? 0?

[UNOwen]

Taylor I gather you don't remember why after having me as scum and Theta as unsure for most of day 1 you decided you wanted Theta to get the scroll over me when Toog posted their list, before going back to Theta unsure me scum shortly after?

[UNOwen]

How many scum do you think are on toog? 0?

Probably 2-3.

[MURDERCAT]

If you had to guess, who do you think they are?

[Tayl0r Swift]

Taylor I gather you don't remember why after having me as scum and Theta as unsure for most of day 1 you decided you wanted Theta to get the scroll over me when Toog posted their list, before going back to Theta unsure me scum shortly after?

not sure without context. but presumably this was when toog held the scroll? because if so then it makes sense to hand the scroll to a null slot second, and a scummy slot 3rd. if you hit scum on the null shot then fantastic. but if you hit town then youve sorted someone and still have another shot.

[Flea The Magician]

I present you with: some of my reads. composed while I'm space braining on my new meds

Taylor - TL, randomly defensive, seems to be sticking to guns. Smart enough to not create those specific associative tells imo.
Noraa - SL, can't forgive the over-defensiveness earlier and response to drilled, have considered play since and downgraded.
UNOwen - scum. Previous post details this somewhere.
Mush - Town - seems proactive
Lady - Town - want to see more from her, and hope she's well soon <3
Shelly - TL, slot doesn't sit well with me on interactions still but the response to the hurt seemed genuine to me.
MC - Not sure, overconfident in reads.
Pooky - SL, slot isn't sitting well with me, seems to be mostly shitposting and taunting.
Lapsa - SL, What the smeg even is this slot.
Theta - Null Seems rather middle of the road to me.
Fred - scum. Zden was lean, freds entrance was... well I had to triple check when they came in because it's like they were always here, and its 3 straight in at taylor.
Bell - TL. Reads well to me. Should probably go look at the points made against them at some point.
Fidget - Honestly, haven't been paying attention.
Gloria - See above.
Adorable - Forgot about them


pedit
[quote=Noraa]I think pooky's town. I feel like pooky has a kind of playful vibe when they are scum. [/quote]
Pooky seems quite playful to me.

[UNOwen]

If you had to guess, who do you think they are?

I'd guess shelly is scum. Titus/Theta might contain scum. I see your point that LLD will be worth revisiting going forward, so possibly her. Maybe also at a stretch Noraa still. Quite comfortable that MUSH/Bell/you are town.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

MUSH what is it about Fred you think is so bad? I admit I've been skimming a bit but it seemed like it was the empty push on Noraa with no real scum hunting. Was there more than that?

I was doing catchup, so I put this off. Fortunately, it was only 4 god damned pages in two hours for fuck's sake I thought we dealt with this shit--

AHEM.

So, there's the empty garbage push on Noraa. One thing you missed about it is it has no coherent point: it defends Tayl0r townreading Noraa to Noraa then votes Noraa -- like, where's this coming from? What's the angle, where's the destination?

Then there's the fact that Fred dodges most real confrontation. As someone else mentioned about Pooky recently (name already gone) but in a different way, Fred's doing this avoidant thing -- laser focus on my target, if I engage with someone challenging me I'm going to deflect it or dismiss it.

Fred has no reads, also. Like, uh, not literally no reads but basically no reads. Shall we ISO? Let's ISO.

--Comes in hard on easy miselimination Noraa.
--Doesn't even cast shade when people confront him. No engagement except deflection. No explanation of the reasoning for the push given.
--Questions shelly a little bit. Barely at all. Deflates the moment shelly responds. No explanation for the questioning given.
--Votes Tayl0r for not responding to the weakest push I've ever seen -- at first I thought it was a naked vote with an unrelated quote attached by accident. Weak pressure maintained.
--Explicitly shrugs about Flea's ISO.
--Finally posts a reads list where I, Gloria, and Fidget are town, Tayl0r and Noraa are scum, and everyone else is a shrug.
--Seriously, consider the absolute emptiness, the vapidness of that readslist. Holy shit. No explanation given for /any/ of these, by the way. Gloria floated a town Fred idea at some point along the line, so maybe that has something to do with it? Garbo reads. Absolutely trash.
--Mention of a reaction test on Tayl0r, I GUESS? Like, let me remind you the vote is for townreading LLD.
--Noraa to null because, uh, Gloria and Fidget say so I guess. To slightly paraphrase on account of I just closed the ISO around when I realized this might be useful to have here: "You've convinced me this read was for bad reasons".
--Denies shelly's literal depiction of the events around the Noraa read. No explanation given.
--Finally townreads LLD for, um, "a different reason". No explanation given. This is a recurring theme, huh?
--Returns to badly putting weight on Noraa and Tayl0r because Flea reminded him that he said stuff and then sort of let it drop. (The questions asked are technically about different posts but the thrust of the argument is damn near identical.)

And that is the entirety of Fred's ISO that actually matters. The whole thing. It's all there. Check for yourself if you don't believe me.

So, on top of that, I have some meta around Fred -- who I incorrectly scumread for very different reasons in our last game together. Meta's garbage, but I know I have weaknesses. I use meta to guide my hand when it comes to mis-reading players I've got history with. The meta is basically that in our last game: Fred spread pressure out, got lost in mechanics speculation, did a bad job of appearing town but approached the game with a solving mindset, took a big-picture approach, had trouble backing down from a challenge, remained engaged (but initially disinterested). Here we see small-balling, lack of engagement with expression of interest (there's a general disconnect there, regardless of meta), active-lurking, refusal to directly respond to challenges, no mechanics-spec despite a front-of-thread focus and the high mechanics-spec make-up of that area of the thread.

Make sense now? For the record, I'm not PEDITing a damn thing, I'll reread any posts after I get this out, because it took ages to type up.

[Flea The Magician]

ebwop

pedit

I think pooky's town. I feel like pooky has a kind of playful vibe when they are scum.

Pooky seems quite playful to me.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Sorry, MURDERCAT, I think you're thinking of some other game.

What does this mean?

It means that in /this specific game/ people are coasting just fine.

[MURDERCAT]

I get the iso is bad MUSH but can you go one level deeper? Let's take "Comes in hard on easy miselimination Noraa." The scum motivation there is what? To get an easy miselim? To find a place to park a vote? I agree the iso doesn't look towny but I am not SRing strong evidence of scuminess if that makes sense.

[MURDERCAT]

seeing strong evidence*

[MURDERCAT]

Also you don't have to walk, just give me a couple of examples

[MURDERCAT]

Wall*

Gunna stop phoneposting now

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Let me quote my last post, cut the cruft and break it out. This is gonna take me awhile, bear with me.

[MURDERCAT]

VOTE: Fred

I'm willing to go with you and bell today because I took my shot D1 and missed.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

--SNIP--

--Comes in hard on easy miselimination Noraa.
--Doesn't even cast shade when people confront him. No engagement except deflection. No explanation of the reasoning for the push given.
--Questions shelly a little bit. Barely at all. Deflates the moment shelly responds. No explanation for the questioning given.
--Votes Tayl0r for not responding to the weakest push I've ever seen -- at first I thought it was a naked vote with an unrelated quote attached by accident. Weak pressure maintained.
--Explicitly shrugs about Flea's ISO.
--Finally posts a reads list where I, Gloria, and Fidget are town, Tayl0r and Noraa are scum, and everyone else is a shrug.
--Seriously, consider the absolute emptiness, the vapidness of that readslist. Holy shit. No explanation given for /any/ of these, by the way. Gloria floated a town Fred idea at some point along the line, so maybe that has something to do with it? Garbo reads. Absolutely trash.
--Mention of a reaction test on Tayl0r, I GUESS? Like, let me remind you the vote is for townreading LLD.
--Noraa to null because, uh, Gloria and Fidget say so I guess. To slightly paraphrase on account of I just closed the ISO around when I realized this might be useful to have here: "You've convinced me this read was for bad reasons".
--Denies shelly's literal depiction of the events around the Noraa read. No explanation given.
--Finally townreads LLD for, um, "a different reason". No explanation given. This is a recurring theme, huh?
--Returns to badly putting weight on Noraa and Tayl0r because Flea reminded him that he said stuff and then sort of let it drop. (The questions asked are technically about different posts but the thrust of the argument is damn near identical.)

--SNIP--

1: Fake scumhunting. I agree scum doesn't need to hunt and can coast fine in this game -- which means that if town starts to coalesce, lurkers are at risk. It's a risk-reward thing -- scum tries to fake like town, if they succeed then they can coast on bullshit to the finish line. Lurking is lower effort, has less risk of them getting caught early on, but they get caught out by POE if town coalesces.
2: Faking town confidence in coming across as town.
3: There's two things here:
3a: First, people have been remarking on the total lack of engagement outside of Noraa around now, so a false-start push on a relatively strongly positioned player could provide some cover. It's noteworthy that this does in fact come after multiple people remark on the single-mindedness of Fred's play to that point, so this is ABSOLUTELY responding to potential pressure. It's obvious why scum would do this.
3b: Second, no explanation given -- scum has to fake reasoning. This is /very/ difficult for people who aren't natural storytellers and is in fact why I incorrectly scumread Tayl0r in our last game together. Scum is safer providing barebones or absolutely no reasoning.
4: See 1 for push and 3b for weakness.
5: See 3b.
6: These are the most absurdly pointless reads I've ever seen. The universal townread, the easiest miselimination, and the only prominent player with a serious contingent calling for blood. Oh, and two comparative nobodies (no offense meant, you two just aren't in the top quarter of active players). This is an under-pressure, asspull, "I have no idea what's going on" readslist. See 3b.
7: See 6.
8: ??? I don't see /any/ reasoning for this. Maybe 1 applies? This is mostly just, "how is this person in the same game as the rest of us, have they paid any attention".
9: See 3a -- this is also responding to pressure. It's also coming from alleged townreads, who also seem to townread Fred, so...
10: 3b AGAIN. Also, 2.
11: See 3b.
12: 1 and 3a.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

By the way, the reason number 2 is faked is simple -- town confidence tends to be dismissive or happily confused (e.g. "I don't get it but sure whatever suits you!"). Fred early on is more deflecting -- blaming the state of the thread for people misunderstanding -- and ignoring -- outright refusal to respond. Comes back to 3b for why scum would prefer to deflect and ignore over dismissing and playing dumb -- they don't know what town sees that makes them wary, they have to either guess (an educated guess, admittedly) or take explanations of it at face value and hope there's no missing nuance.

[Bell]

the instant we start looking at something other than fred the thread is active again. hmm

Three hours at best. This is extreme bullshit.

[Noraa]

I present you with: some of my reads. composed while I'm space braining on my new meds

Taylor - TL, randomly defensive, seems to be sticking to guns. Smart enough to not create those specific associative tells imo.
Noraa - SL, can't forgive the over-defensiveness earlier and response to drilled, have considered play since and downgraded.
UNOwen - scum. Previous post details this somewhere.
Mush - Town - seems proactive
Lady - Town - want to see more from her, and hope she's well soon <3
Shelly - TL, slot doesn't sit well with me on interactions still but the response to the hurt seemed genuine to me.
MC - Not sure, overconfident in reads.
Pooky - SL, slot isn't sitting well with me, seems to be mostly shitposting and taunting.
Lapsa - SL, What the smeg even is this slot.
Theta - Null Seems rather middle of the road to me.
Fred - scum. Zden was lean, freds entrance was... well I had to triple check when they came in because it's like they were always here, and its 3 straight in at taylor.
Bell - TL. Reads well to me. Should probably go look at the points made against them at some point.
Fidget - Honestly, haven't been paying attention.
Gloria - See above.
Adorable - Forgot about them


pedit

I think pooky's town. I feel like pooky has a kind of playful vibe when they are scum.

Pooky seems quite playful to me.

Very interesting that there is exactly, I repeat EXACTLY five SRs. This may be a bad way to judge but generally I find that only careful scum will have exactly the number of scum SRs.
I'm not stupid and I've been quite present in the thread. I know very well that pooky is kinda playful here. It's different tho and if you would care to meta dive, you would understand why. Plus if you read my entire paragraph and not just the first sentence, it shows u why exactly but no, Flea is just gonna come charging after me after reading one sentence of my reassessment read. Great. Lovely.
If we are killing a lurker slot first, Flea is the top candidate imo.