Mafiascum.net

havingfitz Post 473 wrote:I think my main suspect att is Sotty (Hi Sotty! ). Main reason as I finished my read was due to gut. I don’t know her suspicions towards Nik and her willingness to come off IAI’s wagon after he freaked out. Her comments regarding scum being able to talk during the day seemed off to me coupled with saying she had discussed day talk with the mod. I don’t guess that is a scum tell but it just doesn’t sit right with me. In 281 she laments that she will probably be moving her vote off Nik to DF or RC. She says,

I'll be honest, it's a toss up between those two for me. Both have horrible votes on Jason, both have been non committal (probably more Dry Fit than Red here). I'm leaning towards Red right now though. I will look though both ISOs before I leap.

Also...not sure why she is voting RC atm. She never voted RC in phase 1 and in fact made a decent case on his behalf when deciding to join the DF wagon vs the RC wagon. That said...if Sotty was scum (and Percy wasn’t) if would be easy for her to add to the momentum that is the Percy wagon.

I'll admit my vote on Red in this phase was more of a gut reaction as I mentioned in early posts. Combine that with just not liking the Percy wagon and you get my Red vote. My top scum read is Nikanor and his lurking just cements that. Baby Spice is looking bad as well as I mention above

Red is my comprise scum read. In that my gut says he is scum and he is one of the leading wagons so that's where my vote is going. Deadline votes are bad and I think we can both agree on that. I don't understand why Red flipping town would implicate me at all, you are going to have to elaborate there.

I'd also like to know why me unvoting IAI is scummy to you.

You should probably know I am married to the mod, that might explain that post a little better. As to why I would be talking to the mod pregame anyway. I'm going to agree I probably shouldn't have brought it up, but when Nikanor mentioned it my scumdar twinged so I engaged him about it.

What do you think of my case on Nikanor?

Right now I fully beleive Sotty to be town, ok yes, this is based on her coming out and saying she has a town read and defending it with Meta to back up her thoughts... I have played scum sotty many times when I have made mistakes in game and she always tries to minupulate my Meta and say thats what I do as scum to secure a lynch.. Town Sotty is honest with her meta on me, Scum Sotty is NEVER.

havingfitz wrote:IAI's theatrics throughout the game have him high on my list. I hate self votes; he undermined someone's towntell on him (based on the amount of effort he put into his stats) by mentioning his stats weren't difficult to produce; and he thought Dry fit was town but voted him anyway. I realize the DF vote was to ensure a lynch of any kind but I myself am opposed to lynching town reads under any circumstances. Part of IAIs defense against this is that would he (IAI) as scum...profess DF to be town.
He also has my predecessor as his biggest scum read and accuses him of not taking a stance. How can you have this opinion when Oso very clearly stated his thoughts and backed them up with his vote. Also...why is your vote on Percy? I don’t see you voicing any suspicions towards him prior to DF’s lynch.

I hate self votes too. I'll be happy to explain it more after the game (and it was for a town reason).

As for my stats, your accusation "by mentioning his stats weren't difficult to produce" wasn't totally accurate (see underlined):

I Am Innocent wrote:Well honestly it wasn't very hard. Setup a macro, looped it 5000 times, hit the macro button 8 times. Took all of a few minutes...

It was much easier than doing every possible outcome with corresponding probability over a 7 day game period, which is what I did for the utilize every lynch scenario

!

Yes I thought Dry Fit was town up until post 415 (his lynch scene).

100% disagree with you on settling for a no lynch D1 rather than voting for someone you have a town read on. Town reads can be wrong. Proof is in my play D1. Plus, a lynch will get you answers and guide you to scum, even if one is right on the town read.

I did have your predecessor as my biggest scum read D1. He had ONE FRIGGIN SUSPECT. That lack of a stance hits my scumdar all the day long. In regards to this question "How can you have this opinion when Oso very clearly stated his thoughts and backed them up with his vote." I stick by with what I said. It is in scums interest to make as few stances as possible. That way they can maneuver around easier on town wagons without contradicting themselves as it gets closer to a deadline.

But when one person has ONE FRIGGIN SUSPECT, and that suspect dies and they are scum, that is either the craziest friggin bus job ever or one solid townie. I am now 99.9% convinced your slot is town. See Post 418.

As for your last question, "Also...why is your vote on Percy? I don’t see you voicing any suspicions towards him prior to DF’s lynch", as you can see in 418 & my next post 437, I reread the thread knowing Dry Fits allegiance and those players jumped out at me.

As for Percy specifically, I did not like 195 - 197. He lists Dry Fit as one of his suspects. Furcalow specifically asks him to join that wagon, and Percy responsd "As for Dry-Fit, I don't like his votes on Oso or on Jason, but I like my wagons better." I get the impression (hindsight anyway) that his listing of Dry Fit as scum wasn't really sincere...

Oh, and after 195-197, Percy continues to mention Dry Fit in his next five posts. Little obsessive about that wagon, don't ya think?

"Locke moved onto Dry-Fit before you explained your vote. Before that it was just "something different". So why ask us where it went? It's your wagon."
"Things are not adding up for me with Bemmage at all. I'm liking the Dry-fit wagon less because of him."
"Now you've switched to Dry-fit, dropping the RC wagon from three to two, and the only reason you give is because you "want to see a lynch"."
"Oh and I don't know if I mentioned this, but:
1. What did you like about the RC wagon?
2. Why is Dry-fit the superior choice for today?"
"I haven't had a chance to read the RC or Dry-fit wagons close enough to commit."

After his next post (16 words) does not include Dry-Fit, he continues again in his next/last two posts prior to the lynch:
"Nowhere near sold on Dry-fit case." (votes for Furcalow at this point, last ditch effort to save a partner?)
"Why should Dry-fit be lynched?"

Any other questions I can answer for you???

PS - My vote stays unless we are headed for a no lynch.

KaleiÐoscøpe wrote:Let's lynch either Percy or Redcoyote before thursday, so we don't waste this time.

Lynching me is a waste of time. I'm pretty sure lynching Red is a waste of time, also. Are you saying that one of us to be scum, that both of us are scum, or what?

Still,

havingfitz wrote:The fact DF had a chance to hop on the RC wagon and deflect momentum off of his own wagon strikes me as suspicious towards RC (who never put a vote on DF).

This is a good point, but another part of me thinks it's unlikely that the two biggest wagons from D1 were both on scum...
I like his Sotty read, still making my mind up about her.

Hey Sotty, fancy joining me on the Baby Spice wagon? Is your read on Baby Spice less of a "compromise" than Red?

I Am Innocent wrote:Oh, and after 195-197, Percy continues to mention Dry Fit in his next five posts. Little obsessive about that wagon, don't ya think?

Er, it was the lynching wagon. Of course I was talking about it.

I Am Innocent wrote:"Locke moved onto Dry-Fit before you explained your vote. Before that it was just "something different". So why ask us where it went? It's your wagon."

Lern2context, this was in reply to Sotty7 who asked:

Sotty7 wrote:What happened to the Nikanor wagon?

Locke was first on the Nikanor wagon.

What is your point, exactly? You just grabbed any time I mentioned Dry-fit and presented it as a fait accompli. Like when you quoted:

I Am Innocent wrote:"Why should Dry-fit be lynched?"

This was directed at Furcolow, who has a higher chance of being Dry-fit's scumbuddy in my opinion, given his on-again, off-again, reasons-be-damned relationship with the Red wagon. I wanted him to give me his reasons. Why is this a bad thing?

When I said "I haven't had a chance to read the RC or Dry-fit wagons close enough to commit", I meant it. I had conflicting reads that I documented throughout the day, and I was very limited in my access at the time. I did come out strongly against the Dry-fit wagon, and I regret it, but I'm not scum.

Earlier in the day I had a townread of mongoose, largely gut-based. But there was some weirdness that I pointed out here. And while everyone is piling on me, how about this quote from mongoose:

mongoose wrote:I dont see anything wrong with dryfit to be honest. I think everything he has said can be justified. On the other hand, redcoyote's posts aren't really that great. There is alot of irrelevant and silly stuff, along with some questionable points (like his votes on sotty and nikanor, I didn't quite catch the reason for those). However there has been alot of stuff I think is townie behavior as well. While I think that the judgment of older, better players than me shouldn't be disregarded, i still think that the case on furcolow is stronger, so I keep my vote there

Add in Baby Spice's slip, her strange Benmage case post-flip (and pre-flip, tbh) and her present lurking through Phase 2, and I think we've got a great candidate for Dry-fit's partner.

EBWOP:

I Am Innocent wrote:PS - My vote stays unless we are headed for a no lynch.

Why on earth would you think No Lynch is a possibility? This is very strange hedging.

Red. Again, seriously - you're playing different; why?

RedCoyote wrote:Unvote; vote: Furcolow

The jason wagon has become too controversial to continue. If you aren't convinced by now, you probably won't be. This doesn't change the fact that an alternative to the Dry-fit wagon, regardless how you feel about Dry-fit, is beneficial to the long-term game. Furcolow is a great alternative. He's arguably the most opportunistic player here (arguably because he's competing with Benmage for the title), is throwing up senseless, unexplained scum lists and positions that contradict one another, and is, in general, manufacturing activity to look as though he's paying closer attention than he actually is (by this I mean he's missing obvious things and shrugging them off, pretending like it's no big deal).

In particular this needs an explanation because all of those are pretty horrible reasons.

I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon, but I'm not sure precisely how we narrowed it down to these two. Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why. But right now, I'm not really motivated to find out when no-one's looking to change my mind, either.

@Mod - can we get a prod on Basbyspice please

Percy wrote:EBWOP:

I Am Innocent wrote:PS - My vote stays unless we are headed for a no lynch.

Why on earth would you think No Lynch is a possibility? This is very strange hedging.

hmmm missed this, not sure I like it.. why would we no lynch.. more to the point why would IAI be interested in voting No Lynch? IAI... what are the benefits of a no lynch over a lynch right now?

Elmo wrote:I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon... I'm not really motivated to find out when no-one's looking to change my mind, either.

*waves*

Also, that attitude is so anti-town it hurts my brain.

Also also,

Elmo wrote:Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why.

This is not even true. Sotty mentioned her case against Nikanor at the top of this very page... Sure it doesn't mention his potential connections to Dry-fit, but there's a little meat to this case.

: Do you think Nikanor is more or less likely to be scum, given Dry-fit's flip? Or is he independently scummy?

In my estimation, it makes him a smidgeon less likely. I find it less plausible that Nikanor and Dry-fit double-teamed Jason so clumsily, and more likely that Dry-fit was looking to exploit the situation town-Nikanor created. It's definitely well within the margin of error, especially considering that Nikanor never said a single solitary word about Dry-fit. But then again I like anyone voting Baby Spice... Nikanor ends up being null, leaning town for me.

I already disliked mongoose - I'm not sure what to make of Baby Spice, but it hasn't improved my view of that slot. Red still seems worse to me, broadly for the reasons already stated, which is the point.

Percy wrote:This is not even true. Sotty mentioned her case against Nikanor at the top of this very page... Sure it doesn't mention his potential connections to Dry-fit, but there's a little meat to this case.

What I said was that no-one has proposed lynching either of them for being off the wagon. In additition to that, as far as I've seen, actually no-one's seriously proposed lynching either of them; Sotty's not even voting Nikanor right now.

Percy wrote:Also, that attitude is so anti-town it hurts my brain.

Okay, thanks for the information?

Yeah, well, I'm fighting for my life here, and you cbf looking at alternatives - you're just going to complain that no-one else is looking!

Baby 431 wrote:

Vote Benmage

Benmage and Jason are the lynch. Not Percy, not obv town. Just those two scum.

Ugh, you know, Baby might not be a bad lynch. Benmage and jason would be pretty bad follow-up lynches, and Percy is far from obvtown. This is such an awkward read on the game though... so awkward that it may just have to be coming from a VT.

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IAI 437 wrote:Reread the thread:

My Top 2
Percy & Nikanor

Runner Ups: Red, Baby Spice, and to a lesser degree, Furcalow, Mina, and Lrdwhyt

Wait, wait, wait. What happened to Sotty? She's a town read for you now?

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Lrdwhyt 462 wrote:RedCoyote's voting Nikanor for not pointing out his own error was a dumb vote.

You and Mina have been the only two players to make a big deal over something so trivial. I want to say it's indiciative of a sloppy skim through the game, but I actually think Mina is putting forth an honest effort into her analysis. I mean, you could've very easily put a little trollface at the end of that post. Although I genuinely didn't like Nikanor's start, it wasn't some big thing.

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Sotty 465 wrote:Considering how haaaaard it was to lynch Dry Fit I am weary of the Percy wagon because of it's speed. Yeah deadline is somewhat near, but I dunno it feels off to me.

Fair enough, but given that it's loaded with most of your "biggest town reads", shouldn't that console you?

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Mina 466 wrote:For example, saying how "Mina is so focused on me" when I hadn't really attacked him that hard. Repeatedly making forced jokes and talking to people like they're naughty little children. I can give a list of quotes, but it's so many little things.

Did you vote anyone besides me during the first part of the day? If you did, it wasn't for long. This goes back to your absence though, because, regardless of whether you intended to focus a lot of your energy on me or not, it looks that way due to long stretches of inactivity.

Also, I don't know what to say about the "naughty little children" comment except that I'm assuming this is derived from an intense infatuation coupled with some sort of father complex. XD
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fitz's post 473 is well written. I'm glad he took the time to make this post today. There are parts that I disagree with (obviously the vote), but he's jumped into Oso's slot as a heavy town read very well.

There's a big omission though, and that's how exactly he has arrived at the position that Percy is town. I don't think this is a scummy omission though. I would just like him to address Percy with more depth given that Percy is still the biggest wagon.

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Sotty 474 wrote:Slap fight? This sounds like you are playing down the opening exchange I had with IAI in an effort to make it look scummy. Just come out and break down what you find scummy about it, these kind of subtle jabs don't look good.

After reading over the thread a little more closely, I kind of want to back away from this position. I tried to make it clear in my summary as well as the body of text, but I probably should've just went back and deleted this sentence altogether. I've been erratic on my IAI read, so I kind of deserve this hit. I am still curious as to why IAI has seemingly dropped you from his radar, but all in all I don't really think there's anything sinister between you and him anymore.

Sotty 474 wrote:I explained both my town reads on KScope and Locke, do you have an actual issue with what I stated?

I did as you asked. I went back and read over your posts. I found that you talked with Locke about IAI and realized that y'all both have similar opinions toward him. You also answered a question he asked about Nikanor, and... that's it. No mention of Kscope whatsoever. I think you're being dishonest here, Sotty. Either you're being dishonest in saying that you actually had explained why Kscope and Locke were your town reads, or you're being dishonest on account of the original accusation I made.

You ask why this is scummy. The original premise of my post was to put myself in the shoes of a teammate of Dry-fit, remember? I propose that a teammate would've wanted to attempt at destroying the Dry-fit wagon before it got started. Despite how bad this makes me look, I think that you, Percy, and, to an extent, Fur, all look worse. What better way to destroy the Dry-fit wagon and keep yourself clean than to say that Locke and Kscope are your biggest townies reads (despite saying very little about one player and about the other at that point), and claiming that Dry-fit is your second biggest scum read (but without going into depth about why and instead favoring to push Nikanor). Worse still, I don't think Nikanor is even a very great suspect.

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Elmo 480 wrote:Red. Again, seriously - you're playing different; why?

I don't know, Elmo. Do you mean different in the course of this game or different from Hoopla's game?

Elmo 480 wrote:In particular this needs an explanation because all of those are pretty horrible reasons.

I'm sorry they're not as well thought out as "he sounds like an old man". Is there anything about Fur that strikes you as particularly town? It's hard for me to explain why exactly those things are scummy if we have such a fundamental difference of opinion.

Elmo 480 wrote:I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon, but I'm not sure precisely how we narrowed it down to these two. Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why.

These are almost as bad as Baby's suggestions. They seem completely arbitrary in light of Dry-fit's flip given that both of them were virtually removed from the discussion. Perhaps this is exactly why they speak to you, but I couldn't disagree more.

I'll just make a few scattershot posts so as to get my thoughts in order.

(On a reread, it shows that my giant wall was posted on my way to work. I left half my sentences unfinished and omitted some of my reasons for suspecting people.)

Hey, Baby Spice. I'm just curious about something. Did you notice that I was on V/LA for a week (during the entire time that Dry-Fit was wagoned)?

I've reread how the Dry-Fit lynch went down (although it was such a clusterfuck, what with Furcolow flailing like a dying fish, that I'm probably missing something), and consider this my official statement white-knighting the Percy wagon. Seriously, I'd thought that from the way people were piling up on him that he'd outright contradicted his reads and voted for a player he didn't suspect over Dry-Fit. So, the big catch is...he listed Dry-Fit as a suspect, but pushed the lynches of other players he listed as bigger suspects? I kind of like Red's point about Percy listing RC and DF as scumreads but saying he doesn't know enough to judge them, but I wouldn't call it a smoking gun. I could see town or scum taking the same stances as Percy, so it comes down to whether his explanations for his actions feel honest and well-intentioned and whether the rest of his play looks genuine. And although I was mixed on Percy for much of the day, his posts since DF's flip have seemed very town.

I'll reread RC to see if I agree with Locke's assessment that his pushing of an alternate wagon felt natural. Locke, I don't think you ever responded to my comment that the case on Red is not just that he voted Sotty prematurely. I prefer lynching him to Percy, but some of the votes on Red this game have felt off.

Elmo wrote:I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon, but I'm not sure precisely how we narrowed it down to these two. Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why. But right now, I'm not really motivated to find out when no-one's looking to change my mind, either.

Elmo wrote:What I said was that no-one has proposed lynching either of them for being off the wagon. In additition to that, as far as I've seen, actually no-one's seriously proposed lynching either of them; Sotty's not even voting Nikanor right now.

Um...maybe I shouldn't tempt fate, but in that case, why you proposing a lynch of me or Nikanor?

What exactly is your point here? Are you saying, "Guys, there are nice juicy mislynch targets that you can make cases on, if you want, at which point I might jump on the wagon?" Are you saying we're better lynches than Red/Percy/LrdWhyt/Baby Spice? Are you saying someone should propose our lynch than because we're off the wagon? You're not taking a stance on whether you oppose any of the viable lynches right now, AND you're leaving yourself open to vote pretty much anyone off the wagon. I'd normally appreciate an attempt to call attention to neglected players, but that last sentence about waiting for someone to convince you bugs me.

I know your vote is on RC, but are you opposed to a Percy lynch? Right now, is there anyone you suspect who is on the Dry-Fit wagon? How would you rank the six players off the Dry-Fit wagon, since you're apparently willing to lynch one of them? Why did you single out me and Nikanor, and not, say, LrdWhyt?

Percy wrote:kingdavid's reaction to Nik's claim has my ears prick up (spoiler: he buys it)

Sotty7 wrote:I agree that IKD's reaction to Nikanor's claim is suspect. That pushes Lrdwhyt higher up my scum list, but I would really like to see more from him.

Okay, what do you mean by "suspect"? What exactly about IKD's reaction makes you think he's scum?

Because in fact, as strange as his reaction felt, that was one of the main things holding me back from voting LrdWhyt. Wouldn't ikd's immediately believing the claim (if he's scum) imply that jason is also scum? All those who commented on this also have jason as a town read. I can think of a theory, but I'd be interested in hearing what you come up with first.

=====================
Likely to be town: IAM, jason, fitz, Locke, Benmage, Percy, Sotty (?), Elmo (?)
Scum remain in: Furcolow, LrdWhyt, Baby Spice, Nikanor, Red Coyote, Kaleidoscope (?)

If I was right about the six mislynches (Percy said five, but I'll redo the math and check), then this game is already won. Elmo, Kscope, and Sotty could really go either way, though.

Now my problem is choosing who in that bottom level to lynch. I have to admit, Red's mob analysis post (EBWOPreview: and his most recent post to some extent) looks quite town. I'm second-guessing myself.

jasonT1981 wrote:

Percy wrote:EBWOP:

I Am Innocent wrote:PS - My vote stays unless we are headed for a no lynch.

Why on earth would you think No Lynch is a possibility? This is very strange hedging.

hmmm missed this, not sure I like it.. why would we no lynch.. more to the point why would IAI be interested in voting No Lynch? IAI... what are the benefits of a no lynch over a lynch right now?

No, what I meant was say we are approaching the deadline, Percy has 6 votes, someone else has 7. I would move my vote rather than see a no lynch. I've already stated 100's of times that it is in town's benefit to lynch every time. If Percy wants to paint that as "hedging" play, so be it. I personally see it as more scummy to not move your vote and allow a no lynch to happen (see my explanation to having fitz in my previous post).

*****************************************

@Red, yes I see Sotty as town. During my reread, Sotty pushed real hard in defending jason, jason not getting lynched allowed Dry Fit to get lynched. And it doesn't look like both Sotty/Jason are scum. As a matter of fact, neither does.

Actually, the whole wagon on Dry Fit looks good/townie except for me and Furcalow. We were the two wavering, so I agree with Elmo, the lynch today should be off the wagon with the possible exceptions of me or Furcalow.

*****************************************

@Elmo, though I have not pushed for a lynch of Nikanor, I listed him in as my top 2. And Mina, who I have more of a null read, was on my list of non-town reads.

I think one of Percy/Red Coyote is scum, but not both. I think Percy asked that question to KD(?) but I'll answer on my opinion. I lean towards Percy as being the scum, but the fact that RC is the 2nd leading wagon is a good thing for town IMO.

I couldn't care less about who dies out of RC/Percy. I suspect them both, they have reasonable votes on them, and since we only have 2 days left, I'd hate to not lynch today.

I Am Innocent wrote:

jasonT1981 wrote:

Percy wrote:EBWOP:

I Am Innocent wrote:PS - My vote stays unless we are headed for a no lynch.

Why on earth would you think No Lynch is a possibility? This is very strange hedging.

hmmm missed this, not sure I like it.. why would we no lynch.. more to the point why would IAI be interested in voting No Lynch? IAI... what are the benefits of a no lynch over a lynch right now?

No, what I meant was say we are approaching the deadline, Percy has 6 votes, someone else has 7. I would move my vote rather than see a no lynch. I've already stated 100's of times that it is in town's benefit to lynch every time. If Percy wants to paint that as "hedging" play, so be it. I personally see it as more scummy to not move your vote and allow a no lynch to happen (see my explanation to having fitz in my previous post).

Ah fair enough, I see sorta what you mean... I am happy with my vote on Percy right now, would like to see Baby Spice tomorrow answer for her crimes... he beats on about my 'scumslip' makes one of her own that is very blatent and disappears when questioned on it.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... 7&sr=posts

as you can see, she is blatently ignoring this game. She has been active on site every day, right up to only an hour ago or so.

Make that quite a few hours ago, sorry. but yea.. my point on her stands.

Sotty7 wrote:1. I'll admit my vote on Red in this phase was more of a gut reaction as I mentioned in early posts. Combine that with just not liking the Percy wagon and you get my Red vote. My top scum read is Nikanor and his lurking just cements that. Baby Spice is looking bad as well as I mention above

2. Red is my comprise scum read. In that my gut says he is scum and he is one of the leading wagons so that's where my vote is going. Deadline votes are bad and I think we can both agree on that. I don't understand why Red flipping town would implicate me at all, you are going to have to elaborate there.

3. I'd also like to know why me unvoting IAI is scummy to you.

4. You should probably know I am married to the mod, that might explain that post a little better. As to why I would be talking to the mod pregame anyway. I'm going to agree I probably shouldn't have brought it up, but when Nikanor mentioned it my scumdar twinged so I engaged him about it.

5. What do you think of my case on Nikanor?

(Numbers input by me)
1. So despite giving RC props earlier in the game and voicing no real suspicions that I can see earlier in the game, you drop a vote on RC because you don’t like the Percy wagon. The problem I have with this is that you voice suspicions on Baby Spice who at the time you put a vote on RC....had the same size wagon. So why would you put a vote on someone you gave credit to when you could have put the same exact vote down on someone you suspect?

2. See 1. As for why RC flipping town would implicate you...I think you stand a good chance at being scum, but based on my RC ISO I do not think both of you are. So if RC was town it would not eliminate my read on you whereas if he flipped scum, IMO it would clear you.

3. You had reasons for voting IAI (ie it was not a RV) and after he does something which IMO is very suspect you unvote him (post 97) and drop a vote on Nikanor without any rationale. Then you keep your vote on Nik...while not giving any reasoning up thru at least post 180 where you continue to grill IAI (who you just unvoted after his ridiculous self vote). Then right before providing your rationale for your Nik vote you prompt IAI for his reasons for thinking Nik is town. And oh BTW...IAI (who you have unvoted) is also suspicious of jason....which seems to be the bulk of your case against nik (that is his suspicions towards jason).

4. Cool. Interesting. On that note...I have a family member in my house that plays mafia (he actually got me into it) and we have never participated in the same game on this site. I think if one of us ever did mod a game the other was in that it would be a lot easier around the house (in terms of maintaining integrity) if the non-modding housemate was scum. And I still find your interjection of something I have never come across in a game (scum daytalking) as suspect. Especially when the mod only mentions ‘establishing rules’ with scum’s ability to ‘night’ chat and not scum’s ability to chat in general. Also...and I hope neither of you take offense to this...if I was scum in a game that had a town member with a lose ersonal elationship with the mod...it would make me very uneasy. Though a ‘scum + with the mod’ would not bother me at all.

5. I gave it a glance and nothing struck me as terribly scummy.

Sotty7 wrote:This is a great post.

(post 437)

The only way it would be any better was if IAI's vote was on Nikanor instead of Percy but I will deal.

(bold input by me)
How is post 437 a great post? Because he lists Nik as one of his top two? Is that the only reason? I don’t really see anything great about it. Was it the part where he expresses suspicions towards Baby spice (who you refrained from putting a vote on in favor of RC)?

I Am Innocent wrote:I hate self votes too. I'll be happy to explain it more after the game (and it was for a town reason).

As for my stats, your accusation "by mentioning his stats weren't difficult to produce" wasn't totally accurate (see underlined):

I Am Innocent wrote:Well honestly it wasn't very hard. Setup a macro, looped it 5000 times, hit the macro button 8 times. Took all of a few minutes...

It was much easier than doing every possible outcome with corresponding probability over a 7 day game period, which is what I did for the utilize every lynch scenario

!

I didn’t make an accusation. Someone (I don’t recall) gave you town cred for all the ‘work’ you put in to your analysis. You go on to state “Well honestly it wasn’t very hard.” Don’t think of it as an accusation. Think of it as reading comprehension.

I Am Innocent wrote:Yes I thought Dry Fit was town up until post 415 (his lynch scene).

100% disagree with you on settling for a no lynch D1 rather than voting for someone you have a town read on. Town reads can be wrong. Proof is in my play D1. Plus, a lynch will get you answers and guide you to scum, even if one is right on the town read.

Why are you bringing up a no lynch? I just said I don’t vote those I think are town. If the general consensus was that two lynch during the day were better than 1 or none (which I assume it was)....then why would you assume that the seven other players who weren’t voting Dry-fit at the time you put vote 8 down would not have produced the 2 votes necessary to lynch him? you did not have to vote someone you thought was town. I find voting people you think are town to be scummy and providing a poor reason even worse. On the other hand...if you do turn out to be scum it will be an interesting example of reluctant bussing.

I Am Innocent wrote:I did have your predecessor as my biggest scum read D1. He had ONE FRIGGIN SUSPECT. That lack of a stance hits my scumdar all the day long. In regards to this question "How can you have this opinion when Oso very clearly stated his thoughts and backed them up with his vote." I stick by with what I said. It is in scums interest to make as few stances as possible. That way they can maneuver around easier on town wagons without contradicting themselves as it gets closer to a deadline.

But when one person has ONE FRIGGIN SUSPECT, and that suspect dies and they are scum, that is either the craziest friggin bus job ever or one solid townie. I am now 99.9% convinced your slot is town. See Post 418.

I agree with your assessment that Oso was town. I don’t agree with your assessment that he only voiced one suspect/suspicion in his brief time in this game. Other than his RV on you...at various points in the game he expressed suspicions, or voted for: RedCoyote, Percy, IAI (for real), Dry-fit, Furcolow and Benmage. Your THEATRICS regarding his ONE FRIGGIN SUSPECT are once again...theatrics. Which I find unnecessary (as town at least).

I Am Innocent wrote:As for your last question, "Also...why is your vote on Percy? I don’t see you voicing any suspicions towards him prior to DF’s lynch", as you can see in 418 & my next post 437, I reread the thread knowing Dry Fits allegiance and those players jumped out at me.

Ok...thanks for now providing your reasoning.

I Am Innocent wrote:Any other questions I can answer for you???

Not at the moment.

RedCoyote wrote:fitz's post 473 is well written. I'm glad he took the time to make this post today. There are parts that I disagree with (obviously the vote), but he's jumped into Oso's slot as a heavy town read very well.

There's a big omission though, and that's how exactly he has arrived at the position that Percy is town. I don't think this is a scummy omission though. I would just like him to address Percy with more depth given that Percy is still the biggest wagon.

I made a typo in my post regarding you. “I do like his last few though and I share some of his suspicions (mainly Sotty and Furcolow).” should read “I do like his last few though and I share some of his suspicions (mainly Sotty and Furcolow).” Also...my comment “Though I like other suspects more.” seems a bit out of place given that I am voting you. The main reason for my vote on you above my other suspects is that your wagon is bigger and I think your flip would help town regardless of your alignment.

That said....after further review while answering Sotty and IAI’s posts...I have to put you at worst 3rd on my scumlist and I would prefer to see their flip instead of yours. Based on my answers 1-3 of Sotty’s post to me above....

UNVOTE: VOTE: Sotty7

@RC...forgot to address the "big omission..."
The only thing scummy regarding percy IMO was his absence from the Dry-fit wagon. But that doesn't really mean anything as not everyone off the DF wagon can be scum and I would be surprised if there was scum on the DF wagon as well. The "big omission" is due to an absence of suspcion.

REALLY don't like Havinfitz derealing a possible lynch on scum/wagon on scum so close to deadline to put a vote on someone who has no votes whatso ever on them..really dont have time to shit around like this with a deadline looming. We need to decide a lynch between RC and Percy and go for it. Sotty IS NOT a lynch option at all.

This reaks of oh shit, deadline close and scum partner could be lynched.. lets slow this down. I really do not like it

Baby Spice has been prodded.

Percy Post 478 wrote:Hey Sotty, fancy joining me on the Baby Spice wagon? Is your read on Baby Spice less of a "compromise" than Red?

I could do a BabySpice wagon. Nikanor is my number one with a freaking bullet but BabySpice isn't a bad alternative. They are both higher than Red.

END OF POST EDIT: I had moved my vote right away to Babyspice, but after seeing Red's post on me I have decided to keep my vote there.

Percy Post 485 wrote:

@Sotty

: Do you think Nikanor is more or less likely to be scum, given Dry-fit's flip? Or is he independently scummy?

I think he is independently scummy at this point. I have recently burnt my book of associative tells having seen scum and been scum that exploits that way too easily. True there is little interaction between Nik and Dry-Fit but the same could be said of Mina, Kscope and Lrdwhyt.

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Elmo Post 480 wrote:I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon, but I'm not sure precisely how we narrowed it down to these two. Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why. But right now, I'm not really motivated to find out when no-one's looking to change my mind, either.

Come on, I have been talking about Nik nearly all game. Babyspice was also off wagon, not interested in her?

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Red Post 488 wrote:Fair enough, but given that it's loaded with most of your "biggest town reads", shouldn't that console you?

It does a little. But I'm not about to follow my town reads off a cliff just because they do either.

Red Post 488 wrote:I am still curious as to why IAI has seemingly dropped you from his radar, but all in all I don't really think there's anything sinister between you and him anymore.

Fair enough. I have been watching IAI and his suspicions of me do seemed to have lessened as the game has gone on. Feels natural to me, but I could be suffering from some bias here too.

Red Post 488 wrote:I did as you asked. I went back and read over your posts. I found that you talked with Locke about IAI and realized that y'all both have similar opinions toward him. You also answered a question he asked about Nikanor, and... that's it. No mention of Kscope whatsoever. I think you're being dishonest here, Sotty. Either you're being dishonest in saying that you actually had explained why Kscope and Locke were your town reads, or you're being dishonest on account of the original accusation I made.

You might want to check that again before you accuse me of being dishonest

The Kscope read had a lot to do with timing. Momentum was building towards Jason, he was kinda melting down and would have been a perfect scum myslynch candidate. KScope coming out at that time with that post really screamed town to me. I'll agree he needs to post more, and is part of the reason he has slipped down my town list, but that one post is really townie to me and he hasn't done anything to make me question that read.

Red Post 488 wrote:You ask why this is scummy. The original premise of my post was to put myself in the shoes of a teammate of Dry-fit, remember? I propose that a teammate would've wanted to attempt at destroying the Dry-fit wagon before it got started. Despite how bad this makes me look, I think that you, Percy, and, to an extent, Fur, all look worse. What better way to destroy the Dry-fit wagon and keep yourself clean than to say that Locke and Kscope are your biggest townies reads (despite saying very little about one player andnothing about the other at that point), and claiming that Dry-fit is your second biggest scum read (but without going into depth about why and instead favoring to push Nikanor). Worse still, I don't think Nikanor is even a very great suspect.

See, this makes no sense to me. How does calling out my two biggest town reads hurt the Dry-Fit wagon? I also voted Dry Fit in the end which is more than you did, so your stance that it makes me look worse is pretty ridiculous.

Feel free to explain why Nikanor isn't a good suspect, on top of my case he is lurking right now. There is little to nothing positive about his play. I find him very scummy.

In essence, you are reaching here. Your reasons for suspecting me are bogus and certainly don't feel well intentioned.

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Mina Post 489 wrote:Okay, what do you mean by "suspect"? What exactly about IKD's reaction makes you think he's scum?

I questioned IKD in this post about it but he replaced out

My thinking is this: If IKD didn't know this was a mountainous game AND believed the Nikanor claim like his post suggested then he should have straight voted Jason or at least given an opinion on the possibility of Jason being scum. Instead he just questions the claim, it doesn't feel like a townie thought process at all.

This has nothing to do with town read on Jason, but IKD's read on the situation.

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Fitz Post 494 wrote:1. So despite giving RC props earlier in the game and voicing no real suspicions that I can see earlier in the game, you drop a vote on RC because you don’t like the Percy wagon. The problem I have with this is that you voice suspicions on Baby Spice who at the time you put a vote on RC....had the same size wagon. So why would you put a vote on someone you gave credit to when you could have put the same exact vote down on someone you suspect?

Mostly because I felt there was more Red support than BabySpice at that time. Also Nikanor is on the Bayspice wagon. I don't know if it is a horrid bus or what, but he's there and I don't know why.

Fitz Post 494 wrote:2. See 1. As for why RC flipping town would implicate you...I think you stand a good chance at being scum, but based on my RC ISO I do not think both of you are. So if RC was town it would not eliminate my read on you whereas if he flipped scum, IMO it would clear you.

Ugh... this doesn't answer my question. I don't understand the premise you have formed based on “it's you or Red” From what I have seen of your case on me, it looks like we are both independently scummy of the other. So this hardline stance just looks poor and is a possibility of you lining up lynches.

Fitz Post 494 wrote:3. You had reasons for voting IAI (ie it was not a RV) and after he does something which IMO is very suspect you unvote him (post 97) and drop a vote on Nikanor without any rationale. Then you keep your vote on Nik...while not giving any reasoning up thru at least post 180 where you continue to grill IAI (who you just unvoted after his ridiculous self vote). Then right before providing your rationale for your Nik vote you prompt IAI for his reasons for thinking Nik is town. And oh BTW...IAI (who you have unvoted) is also suspicious of jason....which seems to be the bulk of your case against nik (that is his suspicions towards jason).

I detailed my reasons why I found IAI to be likely town, if you disagree there is little I can do about that. Being too hard and stubborn in my reads has lead to bad things, I am trying to be more flexible and fluid these days. Yeah it has bitten me in the ass (as you have witnessed), but I still think being able to change your mind on a dime is much more useful for hunting scum because it disrupts the flow of the game for them.

As to your point four I suppose that's fair enough. If enough people feel this way I can replace out. I don't play the game to cheat but I am not willing to comprise the game just by being here. For the record I felt Nikanor bringing that up in the first place as scummy. There was no need to talk about that but he went out of his way to do so. I think it was an attempt to gain some town cred to suggest he had no idea about the scum day talking. He is more than smart enough to lay that kind of ground work.

Fitz Post 494 wrote:How is post 437 a great post? Because he lists Nik as one of his top two? Is that the only reason? I don’t really see anything great about it. Was it the part where he expresses suspicions towards Baby spice (who you refrained from putting a vote on in favor of RC)?

It's great because he brings up something I was going to post. Why didn't Babyspice vote for Dry-Fit? This is an important question.

I am tempted by a promised Babyspice wagon but Red is looking worse and worse to me. I don't understand how people can say his posts are townie like. The only person I am willing to leave Red for now is Nikanor.