<[M191]> GM1: Gaian Alliance <[Game Over]>

[BabyJesus]

Well, if we think Poseidon is the SK, then we need to lynch Lauritz.... If Thanatos, I think we need to lynch SV.

Scum is....well, I wish I freaking knew.

[Phoebus]

You see Puzzle?
With BJ being nearly clueless...you're not in a good position to be hiding stuff.
If you continue doing so, we just know better then...

[Puzzle]

No, not SV. If SV is scum, it means that she isn't Gaia. If she isn't, then I lied. Then, if SV is scum, I am too, so there is no reason to lynch SV before me (doesn't mean you have to lynch me...).

You're mentioning lying, affiliation and reeking of defense and panic throughout that.

Panic ? For telling BJ not to lynch SV ? Because I know that SV is Gaia and I think that Gaia is good ?

As there was a snitch among the Mafia, it is quite possible that they were 4 to begin with, which means there could still be 2. Therefore, I think our priority today is to lynch the SK in order to be sure to reduce the number of night kills.

While the latter part of that part is valid, it will go horribly wrong if you miss out on the SK.
So you want to take a chance on missing an SK lynch and ALSO withhold information for tomorrow?
Maybe the scum will help take out the SK if they can sift through the claims.

Excuse me but I sincerely don't understand that point. Saying that I'd rather lynch the SK first would mean that I want to take a risk to miss out on the SK ?
I understand your point about the mafia wanting to kill the SK tonight but I fail to see how it helps the town to let the SK kill anyway. Are you hoping for a double crossfire ? I doubt both sides will try that.

The questions I would like everyone to answer is the following :
- Do you agree on the necessity to lynch the SK first ? If not, why ?
- Who do you think is the SK ? Why ?

- Yes
-Until previously in the post, I think it was Lauritz.
Your withholding information has made you look not nice. (though more scum than SK)

What has the town gain by forcing me to tell it ? Most likely a camp will kill her tonight, whereas I could have confirmed her tomorrow.

The point in Lauritz's favour is his vote manipulation,

if indeed it was

.

If...

Your defense of SV makes me think she's scum as well and your Thanatos result was fabricated. Plus, you hold on to Gaia being in the game despite me harping on the fact that it is not good form for the mod to mention roles in flavour and then include them. You can give PBug some credit?

If I had been scum, I would have claimed to have found Hera. Nobody would have questioned it. You can give me some credit?

You don't share your second result even though there are less than 50% odds that we an lynch the SK today. This leads me to think, maybe you have no power and are pulling stuff out from your ass.
I would give you enough credit to build up a credible claim. Why? I dunno.

Now that you know that I found Gaia, get in my shoes from when I was the only one to and tell me what you would have done ?
The only result now is that we have a townie confirmed by me, i.e. another valid target for the Mafia and SK and more stretching for the doc.
This is why I want to get the SK today. Because tomorrow, we may have enough confirmed townies to win.

I'm sorry, I probably wouldn't give Lauritz as much but claiming vig after being a conservative SK is very viable. I've been there and done that.
However, the vote manipulation is a strong point in Lauritz's favour.

... unless it's been faked. We have had 3 votes claimed as manipulated on day 1 and 0 on day 2. One of the claimers was Lubabah, so it's quite probable that he lied. However, it doesn't mean that Lauritz didn't lie either.
I don't remember who the third manipulated was. Help welcome on this.

Grr. The three deaths really screwed things up!
So, by numbers, share info or get out.
I'll let teh SK win if he must. A lesson must be taught if you are town.
Not being an outright straight cop, plus having faith in the doc/blocker, you have no reason to withhold info.

I certainly don't want to lose to "be taught a lesson" by "superior players".
You admit trusting me as a cop but are ready to lynch me and lose the game to "teach a lesson to the town".

Big FOS Phoebus

.

BJ:
Don't make me scream again.

Who do we think is more likely to be serial killer, thanatos or Poseidon? I'm guessing thanatos.....which is likely to be SapphireVerde

POSEIDON!
Unless I need to have a serious talk with PBUg, POSEIDON!
He was the jealous one. He caused trouble. Earthquakes, floods, sea monsters and revenge. Thanatos just did his job, procuring the souls of those whose thread had been cut.

On this, you may be right although I'm not sold on it. I just don't know Greek Mythology enough.
I need more thinking on this.

[Puzzle]

Alea jacta est (yes, I know it's latine),

Unvote Yosarian2, vote Lauritz Melchior

.

[Phoebus]

Panic ? For telling BJ not to lynch SV ? Because I know that SV is Gaia and I think that Gaia is good ?

How do you know she is Gaia?
Where is Thanatos then?
This also relates to the very last part of your post.
Fine, you don't know much about the greek myths.
I do. But don't take my word for it. Go to the Encyclopaedia Mythica.
Go hit up wikipedia. Nowhere will you see Thanatos bear malice. He's more concerned with funerary rituals.

Excuse me but I sincerely don't understand that point. Saying that I'd rather lynch the SK first would mean that I want to take a risk to miss out on the SK ?

The point was: With 7 players alive, without 100% knowledge of who the SK is, there is a greater chance of you hitting someone else. You have only a 1 in 7 chance. Let's say 1 in 6 since you won't vote yourself.
I'd say that's a pretty big chance of missing the SK. At which time, numbers would dictate a town loss. I do not like that.

Are you hoping for a double crossfire ? I doubt both sides will try that.

Why not?
An SK has to survive. Keeping scum alive in end game results in two threats for him.
A) The numbers game. Scum forming a voting bloc in end game nullify his kill.
B) With scum alive, there's a greater chance they hit him. It's self preservation on his part.

What has the town gain by forcing me to tell it ? Most likely a camp will kill her tonight, whereas I could have confirmed her tomorrow.

How could you have a confirmed innocent tomorrow?
Let them kill her. If she is Gaia, the flavour mentions her being mostly powerless. Gaia tried as far as possible, never to interfere in divine matters. SV never participated enough to have a power of any sort. She could so easily have been lynched for inactivity.
Gaia would prolly be a townie. Definitely not essential to the game, despite it being named after her since it's poor form to include a lynchpin role, as is mentioning a role blatantly in the flavour. Though for Gaia in this situation, I will concede that point.

If...

I believe I was the first person to fish for that info.
I gave two possibilities in the questioning post. I was fishing because I had the same restriction and was wondering if it was more rampant.
If lauritz is lying, he had no reason to tack on to that part of the question. It isn't that obvious that it will be a viable ploy later. For all intents, purposes and appearances, I was just plotting out the possibilities and not quite the actual occurences. At which time, someone "not in the know" would've remarked either on the strangeness of my choices or that they had no idea what I was talking about. Lauritz did not miss a beat italicising what he did and was semi confirmed by the mod's reprimand.

Now that you know that I found Gaia, get in my shoes from when I was the only one to and tell me what you would have done ?
The only result now is that we have a townie confirmed by me, i.e. another valid target for the Mafia and SK and more stretching for the doc.

The first sentence: What??
The second sentence: Well, that's probably good. Like I said, Gaia is probably vanilla. The scum and SK can keep second guessing each other and if you die, your innocence can be confirmed as can it, if SV dies and is Gaia.

I don't remember who the third manipulated was. Help welcome on this.

The earlier part of that para has been addressed above.

I certainly don't want to lose to "be taught a lesson" by "superior players".

While part of the sentiment of that sentence is appreciated, I don't take kindly to the quotes.
I certainly did not mean to come across as condescending and I apologise if that's how it felt. I consider myself a superior mod (;)) but not such as a player. However, my point about teaching the lesson stands.

Don't really give a damn about the FOS. *shrug*

On this, you may be right although I'm not sold on it. I just don't know Greek Mythology enough.
I need more thinking on this.

Read the first part of this post.

[Lauritz Melchior]

don't remember who the third manipulated was. Help welcome on this.

As far as your suspicions about me making it up that my vote was manipulated, d_rouge can vouch for me.

Puzzle, you already semi-role-claimed early on, with your knowledge about a "son of Nox".
No one was stabbed three times on night one. On night two, based on Fuldu's defense of Lubabah early on the previous day, I decided to kill him. He woke up with three stab wounds from my trident. You'll notice that there was no such kill on night one. I cannot kill tonight. I am the even-night-vig. Phoebus is the one that we want. He's been shouting "vote lauritz for sk" this entire day.
Phoebus was also delaying his role-claim early on, while requesting that Puzzle first give his names. Was this, perchance, so that he could claim the name that Puzzle found? Right after, however, he gave his "I'll turn you into a cow" quote. So what?! He half-claims as Hera, but says that he has no abilities. Have we had anybody without abilities in this game?

The reason I'm holding on a claim is that Puzzle may have found me and that makes it easy for me to ascertain what side of the battle he lies on.

Why I ask for a claim from rouge is because of a certain tell, he's either scum or a doc.

First he sets up to claim as the name that Puzzle reveals. Then he says that d_rouge is "either scum or a doc". Trying to encourage the real doc to step up?

He has so far accused me, Yosarian, Puzzle.

Is rouge actually claiming doc and protecting you? What about multiple killers foiling the doc? What are you trying to prove?

Trying to get the real doc to come out again?

He's also mentioned an even-vig at least twice. That would make the game unbalanced. Three kills a night? You'll notice that there was no third kill on night one.

He's tried to get me lynched, Yosarian lynched, and Puzzle lynched. That sounds like a desparate SKer to me.

Confirm vote on Phoebus

and please stop spamming "vote lauritz for sk".

[Phoebus]

Oh, here's something I missed.
Silly me, for not even knowing my own posts.

Apparently, it was Puzzle who was fishing for info from Lauritz. Lauritz attributed the quote to me and in my "see all posts" by him, I picked up on it.

So, while my mental processes have been described in the post above, with Puzzle claiming never to have been vote bought, his reaction of shock to Lubabah's knowledge of Ares and subsequent dropping of the issue by him until now, AND the fact that Ares features only as a power and not as a player, makes me think that in this game, the politician might be anti town...

I know that doesn't make a LOT of sense but read up the following sequence of posts from post 213 to 224 and tell me if Puzzle isn't acting a little strange.

Coming off that, one might theorise that Puzzle had info, acc. to his asking if someone manipulated Lauritz (which he is now sceptical of), he was shocked when Lubabah outright mentioned Ares, something which he ought not to have done, or might have been unplanned by scum. SV has been lurking a lot, something I do when scum. Rather lurk than lie. Now Puzzle protects SV - calling her Gaia, which I don't think is in the game.

This case makes sense to me. What about you guys (other than Puzzle)?
Though Puzzle can refute accusations.

I may not be around at all tomorrow, so wait till saturday before you lynch someone.
I'd also like to ask BJ to think twice before putting me to sleep tonight, unless you want to rely totally on online sources for info and go on silly assumptions like Thanatos being evil.

[Lauritz Melchior]

And Puzzle, if you didn't understand what I said before in response to your suspicions about me making up the vote manipulation thingie, I said that d_rouge targetted me (I'm pretty sure that I can say it cause he didn't target me today, so it's in the past). Let him confirm if you don't believe me.

[Lauritz Melchior]

I checked out Encyclopedia Mythica like you told me to, and it says nothing about Thanatos being involved in funerary rites.

The Greek personification of death who dwells in the lower world. In the Iliad he appears as the twin brother of Hypnos ("sleep"). Both brothers had little to no meaning in the cults. Hesiod makes these two spirits the sons of Nyx, but mentions no father.

Thanatos was portrayed as a youngster with a inversed torch in one hand and a wreath or butterfly in the other. He appears, with Hypnos, several times on Attican funerary vases, so-called lekythen. On a sculpted column in the Temple of Artemis at Ephese (4th century BCE) Thanatos is shown with two large wings and a sword attached to his girdle.

That's all. Nothing more. I suspect that Phoebus is Thanatos (and not an ability-less Hera as he claims).

[Lauritz Melchior]

Oh, and did I mention that post about letting the town lose just to teach it a lesson?

[Lauritz Melchior]

Wouldn't the "personification of death" as Encyclopedia Mythica calls Thanataos, be a more likely SKer than Poseidon?

[Phoebus]

As far as your suspicions about me making it up that my vote was manipulated, d_rouge can vouch for me.

Other than the fact that I cleared you of being evil, bar an SK with a beefed up role, pray tell how d_rouge can vouch for you?

Puzzle, you already semi-role-claimed early on, with your knowledge about a "son of Nox".

How is that a semi role claim? It can be easily made up. Pulling out muthic greek names from your ass is tremendously easy in a 12 player game.

No one was stabbed three times on night one. On night two, based on Fuldu's defense of Lubabah early on the previous day, I decided to kill him. He woke up with three stab wounds from my trident. You'll notice that there was no such kill on night one. I cannot kill tonight.

To your merit, you put forth all evidence along with your claim that it cannot be counter claimed.

I am the even-night-vig. Phoebus is the one that we want. He's been shouting "vote lauritz for sk" this entire day.
Phoebus was also delaying his role-claim early on, while requesting that Puzzle first give his names. Was this, perchance, so that he could claim the name that Puzzle found? Right after, however, he gave his "I'll turn you into a cow" quote. So what?! He half-claims as Hera, but says that he has no abilities. Have we had anybody without abilities in this game?

A) Do check where my vote is, as of now. (vote lauritz for SK)
I've only been shouting that for the reasons that: (earlier) There was no Ares to be found (whom I thought existed) and even night vig or limited/retro vig are very easy claims for a conservative SK. Look up Cap'n Blic's regular mafia, 24 I think, and see how I played and my subsequent claim. I'm not pulling tihs out of thin air.

B) WHAT do you know of any of the dead? Ouranos? Zeus? Hades?
WHAT do you know of their roles? Did they ever claim? Don't assume we have no vanilla townies. I know we do. That's a very dangerous statement to make saying, have we had anybody without abilities in this game.

I am the even-night-vig. Phoebus is the one that we want. He's been shouting "vote lauritz for sk" this entire day.
Phoebus was also delaying his role-claim early on, while requesting that Puzzle first give his names. Was this, perchance, so that he could claim the name that Puzzle found? Right after, however, he gave his "I'll turn you into a cow" quote. So what?! He half-claims as Hera, but says that he has no abilities. Have we had anybody without abilities in this game?

Hell no. Just using jeep's tells which like rouge says, everyone except my sister (I don't have one) has read. I'd like to disagree that we can't put much weight on them anymore as a result of the reading. I say that they are still VERY valid.

He has so far accused me, Yosarian, Puzzle.

Have I really accused Yos? I don't remember. BUt it was passing suspicion. I'd do some dangerous meta gaming and say PBug might include such a role even though part of it sounds iffy. Parts of most roles sound iffy here.

He's also mentioned an even-vig at least twice. That would make the game unbalanced. Three kills a night? You'll notice that there was no third kill on night one.

I believe I mentioned an ODD night vig. The principles of symmetrical balance which 8 mods out of 10 will follow dictate this. I'm not saying this can't be the other two times but 8 trumps 2, eh?
Are you claiming that you HAD to kill last night? What planet do you come from? Only rarely MUST a vig kill every night. Rarer still is a vig who does it voluntarily. Heaven knows I've lost two games as a vig who hadn't the guts to off someone.

He's tried to get me lynched, Yosarian lynched, and Puzzle lynched. That sounds like a desparate SKer to me.
/quote]
Right. Rather than a townie who's (somewhat) grasping at straws, I'm an SK who's jumping right into fray, making myself obvious, sticking my neck out, trying to get someone, anyone, lynched.
Right.

and please stop spamming "vote lauritz for sk".

Vote Lauritz for SK.

Take that with a pinch of salt. Why would it bother you so much?
You see anyone following my advice? You see me voting you anymore.
I do believe my cases have been fairly founded, if not totally on logic.
In my mind (and it's always subjective), your case is now thin due to subsequent happenings since I first thought you an SK.
Read up on my things on Puzzle and get back to me.

Vote Lauritz for SK!

[Phoebus]

I said that d_rouge targetted me (I'm pretty sure that I can say it cause he didn't target me today, so it's in the past). Let him confirm if you don't believe me.

Interesting.

The Greek personification of death who dwells in the lower world. In the Iliad he appears as the twin brother of Hypnos ("sleep"). Both brothers had little to no meaning in the cults. Hesiod makes these two spirits the sons of Nyx, but mentions no father.

Thanatos was portrayed as a youngster with a inversed torch in one hand and a wreath or butterfly in the other. He appears, with Hypnos, several times on Attican

funerary vases

, so-called lekythen. On a sculpted column in the Temple of Artemis at Ephese (4th century BCE) Thanatos is shown with two large wings and a sword attached to his girdle.

(emphasis mine)
Right. I keep funerary vases in my home, just for show.
The personification of death.
Would you call the grim reaper evil? It's just his job to gather souls, as it was the job of Thanatos. Show me where he went causing mayhem and death with a purpose?

Whereas, if you look up Poseidon, you find this in the second para:

However, Poseidon was a very moody divinity, and his temperament could sometimes result in violence. When he was in a good mood, Poseidon created new lands in the water and a calm sea. In contrast, when he was in a bad mood, Poseidon would strike the ground with a trident and cause unruly springs and earthquakes, ship wrecks, and drownings.

Compare that.
It wasn't even Poseidon's business to deal with death. Yet, he went on, from time to time, killing people.

hat's all. Nothing more. I suspect that Phoebus is Thanatos (and not an ability-less Hera as he claims).

You're clueless, brother.

Oh, and did I mention that post about letting the town lose just to teach it a lesson?

No, you didn't.

Wouldn't the "personification of death" as Encyclopedia Mythica calls Thanataos, be a more likely SKer than Poseidon?

No, not in the ordinary sense.
AND ESPECIALLY NOT WITH THE GAIAN ALLIANCE BEING GAIAN OFFSPRING WHICH THANATOS IS NOT.

Did we lose sight of that?
Either Thanatos or Hera, I don't belong to Gaia.

[BabyJesus]

I don't think Phoebus is thanatos....I think he'd admit it and just claim to be vig. I think SV is thanatos.

[Yosarian2]

B) WHAT do you know of any of the dead? Ouranos? Zeus? Hades?
WHAT do you know of their roles? Did they ever claim? Don't assume we have no vanilla townies. I know we do. That's a very dangerous statement to make saying, have we had anybody without abilities in this game.

Well, like I said before, night one, Ouranos sent me to investigate Save The Dragons (Zeus), and Save The Dragons was spying on someone night 1, so Zeus was an investigative role of some kind. I also know that Ouranos was not a vanilla townie, although I don't know if he had any abilities other then being able to command me.

[Lauritz Melchior]

I still think that Phoebus is SKer (or scum).

[BabyJesus]

I still think that Phoebus is SKer (or scum).

so you think he is thanatos, not hera?

[Lauritz Melchior]

That is correct.

[BabyJesus]

That is correct.

but he seems to be defending thanatos....if his whole argument is that thanatos is good, why not just come out and say he is thanatos? If he was going to rolefke, why even bother defending thanatos??

Did d_rouge ever say what his night action was? I want to hear it.

[d_rouge]

Ok, I am the vote controller and I targeted Lauritz yesterday. That doesn't clear him at all, however.
I don't remember who (maybe phoebus) said that a vote controlling ability wouldn't work on a scum so Lauritz must be innocent. I don't agree with this line of reasoning just because it would make my role totally useless.

Right now I'm thinking Phoebus may be the scum (or the SK) we're looking for; I should find some time during this weekend to read through his posts and offer a convincing argument.

By the way maybe I didn't understand Puzzle's role, but I thought he was given a name at random. Is that the case or do you target the person whose name you want to know? Because if you don't target you can't be sure of SV being Gaia and if you target you must also know who is Thanatos.

[Puzzle]

The thing is that everyone claimed except SV. So, knowing that Gaia is in the game + SV being the only unclaimed + noone else claiming Gaia => SV=Gaia.

Just out of interest for understanding, are you using the powers of Ares or your own ? Knowing that would help us at least understanding a bit better the whole situation.

[BabyJesus]

Ok, I am the vote controller and I targeted Lauritz yesterday. That doesn't clear him at all, however.
I don't remember who (maybe phoebus) said that a vote controlling ability wouldn't work on a scum so Lauritz must be innocent. I don't agree with this line of reasoning just because it would make my role totally useless.

I think that was the scum Lubabah that said that....

Interesting that it also seems Phoebus is the only "townie" among us....

Well,

vote Lauritz

Also

Right now I'm thinking Phoebus may be the scum (or the SK) we're looking for; I should find some time during this weekend to read through his posts and offer a convincing argument.

Isn't that a little backwards???

[BabyJesus]

The thing is that everyone claimed except SV. So, knowing that Gaia and

THANATOS

is in the game + SV being the only unclaimed + noone else claiming Gaia

OR THANATOS

=> SV=Gaia

OR THANATOS

.

Just out of interest for understanding, are you using the powers of Ares or your own ? Knowing that would help us at least understanding a bit better the whole situation.

fixed...added red to make it a true statement.

[Puzzle]

Are you suggesting that I saw her because she hosted us but that she isn't a player as such ? I guess it may be possible but that seems a bit stretched to me.

I don't know PBuG enough, but to those of us who do, is he such a kind of bastard-mod ?

[Yosarian2]

Baby Jesus is saying that since you claim you saw both Thantos and Gaia with your ability, but no one claimed either role, then if we believe that you are telling the truth then it's possible that SV is Gaia or that he is Thantos. However, it's only possible you are telling the truth if either Gaia or Thantos is in fact awake today, and one of them is lying. That does not seem likely to me; Thantos could be the SK, I guess, but that dosn't seem very likely to me as we know Hades was a good guy; I would expect the two of them to be on the same side if Thantos is in this game. Anyway, at this point, it seems like it has to be true that either Thantos is lyning scum, Gaia is lying scum, or you are lying scum.