Micro 134 (F11) (Game Over!)

[Sotty7]

"Misrepp'd." That's a loaded term. Please don't beat around the bush. Do you suspect us, yes or no (or qualified maybe)?

I did remember, but it wasn't relevant to my point. What you're telling me is that he acted like

typical

CES (so nothing out of the ordinary at all) but you also agree with Syr's assessment of his play as fluffy non-contribution?

I still think you are town but I am getting annoyed with you missrepping my play, so please stop. (It is only a loaded term if it is false.) You basically admit that you did here.

I agree that CES didn't not all that much day one outside of pushing Nacho.

Disagree completely. How else do you read players like Furcolow? Townies passionately argue illogical or absurd points all the time. This is what bugged me about Whiskers--I could buy FourTrouble being somewhat self-centered and accusing Rach of persecuting him, but not an impartial observer. Likewise, I can buy a newbie or someone from a site with a different meta honestly believing that CES's survival means he's scum. I wouldn't buy it from you.

Well that's good because CES survival mode is not why I suspect him today.

It's not like we went, "CES is town, but let's vote him for TEH RXS!"

The policy-lynch suggestion was whimsical and fueled by paranoia, but would have been semi-serious if he'd

not

mentioned the VT claim. But I didn't actually have a stronger case than "He's CES and quickhammered the cop, so fuck it, let's just lynch the bastard!" Ever vote someone you're not convinced is scum just to feel him out?

The bold is exactly what you did? Unless you are saying you voted and then CES reaction is what made you think he was town which gets a frowny face from me.

When we changed our minds, I figured announcing it would be antitown. Part of it was wanting CES to feel like he was still under pressure

(it's not like he'd answer my questions otherwise)

, but I also thought the scum would swing for a CES mislynch with my and possibly Syr's votes assured. And people often take cues on what the "correct" position is from whatever's voiced most often in the thread, so I didn't want to bias their reactions. Total transparency is overrated. As for what I hoped to get out of it? Well, reactions like jason's...or, um, yours.

If you truly wanted CES "under pressure" getting my vote on him should have been a goal of yours, for two big reasons. The bigger the wagon the bigger the threat, but with CES it probably wouldn't have changed his response much. But also to see my whole reaction to putting my vote on him with you. You did the exact opposite.

That was Empire, but anyway. My problem is that you were very passive during his lynch, and didn't fight for one side or the other. Feels like how scum would play it, I guess. Also didn't like the wavering between "boy, this case is confusing and going waaay over my head"/"you're my soul mate, Whiskey-poo <3"/"sure, he's an okay lynch."

My problem when I am scum is getting locked into my "scum picks". I would have just picked a side and not fence sat like that, but I was torn BECAUSE you appealed directly to me. Whiskers reads matched mine, but his posting wasn't that great once I took a second look. My top town read was convinced he was scum and I was willing to admit that maybe I was wrong. I probably would have hammered if CES didn't. Probably not as quick though.

[Sotty7]

Jason, when you do finally post can you give me some links of your last 3 or 4 scum games.

Thanks.

[Zachrulez]

5th vote count of day 2:

Nachomamma8 - 2 (Cogito Ergo Sum, Dazed and Confused)
JasonT1981 - 2 (Nachomamma8, Syryana)
Syryana - 1 (FourTrouble)

Not Voting: (JasonT1981, Sotty7)

With 7 alive it's 4 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2013-03-18 20:00:00)

[Nachomamma8]

Explain this.

Ongoings.

And this.

I was waiting to see how Whiskers would react to the me-Sotty exchange over Rach, but I didn't want to direct them to it. I wanted to see if they would comment on it when they reached it.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sotty, I think continuing this won't be productive, but it seems like something keeps getting lost in the translation here.

I thought I'd already explained it, but yes, we literally

did

change our mind afterwards, although it was more because of our intuition/his behaviour than anything he said in his defence. (Call me gullible after the game if it turns out I'm wrong.) Here's another way of putting it:



Not perfectly to scale. Just imagine there's an actual label for when the vote happened, but it's buried underneath the scribbles of insanity. Kind of like my actual CES vote!

[FourTrouble]

FT, still think Syryana is scum?

Yes.

[FourTrouble]

FT, I've got a really random question. What do you know about Josh's meta?

A lot of lurking + him getting replaced out often.

[FourTrouble]

JasonT1981: Null. He lurked, he voted Whiskers, that's pretty much it. Didn't have enough information to make a decision, so I ignored him.

Nacho: Slight gut scumread. He seemed pretty logical and I agreed with some of his points (namely about jason), but he just had some odd statements. Like making himself a threat to CES as scum, his rigorous defense of RachMarie. Just didn't sit quite right with me.

FourTrouble: My opinion on you morphed from townread to scumread the further I got through the thread. Initial town gut call on the RachMarie ragefest, but I didn't like how vague you were when explaining your reasoning on your reads. I also didn't like how quiet you got after the Sixty fight. I ended up picking you over Nacho to be CES's scumpartner in my argument thanks to the timing of your L-1 and CES's hammer.

CES: Null. Shocking, I know, that I should have a null read on CES. My argument on him arose from mental WIFOM regarding his quickhammer and the fact that he's not dead yet. I won't rehash the argument, but after I figured CES had to either be horrendously misinformed and way off on the scum, or an evil genius playing gambits to fool the other veterans. I went with the evil genius.

So that's the thought process which spawned my argument for CES/FT scum. I'll probably post some more thoughts after we hear back from D+D and more importantly after I sleep.

What I don't like about this is, 1) he didn't have a scumread on me until after I started calling him scum, and 2) he voted for CES when he should have been voting for Nacho (his only real scumread). His actions/behavior does not line up with his thought process. He also voted for Jason instead of Nacho, again when he had Jason down as null but Nacho down as scum. It comes down to Syryana's thought process having very little depth to it (at its clear worst when he's not sheeping someone else's thoughts), and the fact Syryana's not even acting fully on his thoughts.

[jasonT1981]

Also, he says Sotty/Jason scum team makes sense to him, but his vote is on someone totally different.. Nacho, the very person he was lining up for a lynch with his hammer.

Sotty/you is worth exploring, certainly; that doesn't mean I should vote for either of you. Do you think I was trying to line up lynch while quickhammering as scum?

More like making an empty statement with little to back it up with.

CES Can you explain what makes sense about Jason/Sotty scum team, given Sotty's only real thoughts of me being scum was due to activity being low.. and not the way you are blowing it out. Most of the time she commented on my actual game play.. she saw town in it... her only thoughts of jason-scum was on lack of activity.

You're not bothered by Sotty calling you scum in her last post Yesterday and calling you 90% town Today? The interaction between you and Sotty has been a bit weird and I'm definitely missing something if the two of you are town (and I don't really think you have different alignments).

not really, reads change all the time.

The thought process in Syryana's 383 is superficial, too.

can you expand on this please?

Me and Jason because I attach myself to my scum buddies like this? No really, what's the rationale behind this?

exactly, its a load of tosh.. you bus and bus hard as scum.

Why do you think CES and FT are scum outside of the hammer and L-1? Do you think they are scum together?

I think there is a good chance, fourT put Whiskers in the position for a Quick hammer.. there is also this from D1

wow thought I had posted Yesterday. FourTrouble... your reaction was that of what I would expect of scum in a OMGUS and seemingly paranoia jumping onto the person who votes you

tosses unneeded support onto the wagon, does nothing else

I suggest you read, Josh was already a scumread of mine before whiskers came in

probing for support of an easy target
no followthrough when no one takes up his offer

Its not an easy target, and I am still interested in a FT wagon.

[FourTrouble]

Jason, I thought 145 referred to a different game?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

What I don't like about this is, 1) he didn't have a scumread on me until after I started calling him scum

He didn't have a read on anyone but me out there before you called him scum; but there is stuff in #383 that he's unlikely to have made up after. There's a reactive element to it but given the rest I'd have a difficult time spinning that as scummy.

Your reasoning here seems quite mechanical. Why haven't you asked Syryana why he voted Jason?

[jasonT1981]

So he suspects a Sotty-Jason scumteam but votes Nacho? I don't see this making any kind of sense. He tries to say later that he wants to explore the Sotty-Jason idea but doesn't necessarily want to vote for them. I think he's trying to be inconspicuous. He quickhammers yesterday, thinking that nobody will suspect a quickhammer from CESscum; he's too wily for such an obvious tactic. It backfires; Whiskers was the cop. Today, therefore, he attempts to appease me by saying my post attacking him "isn't bad" and slinks off to the person he targeted all day yesterday: Nacho. He makes some token posts about Sotty-Jason, then sits back and waits for everyone to get distracted by something else. Like Jason, for example.

very much my toughts on the situation. Refusing to commit really to it. Because he knows he will have to work for it and not have a position where it can be run up easy like yesterday.. IE the way the last two votes fell.

I think Sotty-Jason is plausible; I think Nachoscum is plausible. Now why are you parroting Jason's silly talking point?

again, you say this but you do little else to back anything up

- Do you really see Sotty7scum turning her back on an easy mislynch in a close game like this? Get me mislynched, mislynch Jason - it's an easy win.

remind us again how easy that hammer was for you, please?

FT, what did/do you think of my hammer?

It didn't come as any surprise. I probably would have done the same if you had voted for Whiskers before me. Why did you say Syryana's 383 wasn't bad?

off course it didn't you were the one who made it possible with your L-1 vote.

Newbies convinced of my scummitude is sadly not that uncommon a phenomenon. I care more about his lack of insight into the nightkill motivation.

what do you think the NK motivation was?

Jason, when you do finally post can you give me some links of your last 3 or 4 scum games.

Thanks.

alrighty...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=25233 Medical Mafia -

I will have to go hunting later for the rest, I have lost my records so will have to manual hunt through the site.

[jasonT1981]

So he suspects a Sotty-Jason scumteam but votes Nacho? I don't see this making any kind of sense. He tries to say later that he wants to explore the Sotty-Jason idea but doesn't necessarily want to vote for them. I think he's trying to be inconspicuous. He quickhammers yesterday, thinking that nobody will suspect a quickhammer from CESscum; he's too wily for such an obvious tactic. It backfires; Whiskers was the cop. Today, therefore, he attempts to appease me by saying my post attacking him "isn't bad" and slinks off to the person he targeted all day yesterday: Nacho. He makes some token posts about Sotty-Jason, then sits back and waits for everyone to get distracted by something else. Like Jason, for example.

very much my toughts on the situation. Refusing to commit really to it. Because he knows he will have to work for it and not have a position where it can be run up easy like yesterday.. IE the way the last two votes fell.

I think Sotty-Jason is plausible; I think Nachoscum is plausible. Now why are you parroting Jason's silly talking point?

again, you say this but you do little else to back anything up

- Do you really see Sotty7scum turning her back on an easy mislynch in a close game like this? Get me mislynched, mislynch Jason - it's an easy win.

remind us again how easy that hammer was for you, please?

FT, what did/do you think of my hammer?

It didn't come as any surprise. I probably would have done the same if you had voted for Whiskers before me. Why did you say Syryana's 383 wasn't bad?

off course it didn't you were the one who made it possible with your L-1 vote.

Newbies convinced of my scummitude is sadly not that uncommon a phenomenon. I care more about his lack of insight into the nightkill motivation.

what do you think the NK motivation was?

Jason, when you do finally post can you give me some links of your last 3 or 4 scum games.

Thanks.

alrighty...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=25233 Medical Mafia -

I will have to go hunting later for the rest, I have lost my records so will have to manual hunt through the site.

[FourTrouble]

Syryana said he had a scumread on Nacho, not just on you CES. I didn't ask Syryana why he voted Jason because the question didn't occur to me?

[FourTrouble]

CES, that is a good question though... is there any reason YOU haven't asked it yet? Syryana is voting Jason instead of you, Nacho, or myself, why is that reading as town to you?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's not reading as town to me. As for not asking the question, I'm implicitly asking it now, really. It didn't stand out to me initially.

what do you think the NK motivation was?

Sixty and Dazzled and Charmed both seemed like obvious enough kills. I don't think speculating on the nightkill is particularly fruitful when there are no strong reasons to favour one or the other; the reason could easily be something silly or idiosynchratic.

[Dazed and Confused]

Ok, so I've read through what I've missed and here's my thoughts on stuff (it probably comes across as disheveled, as you can see we're really living up to our name):

- The BoP attack on CES is really fucking dumb. The guy was far from a strong universal townread D1 and had just quickhammered someone who ended up being alive, of course he's going to live through the night. I'm not exactly great at reading him but a lot of his play here reminds me of stuff like Sherlock where he was just very (uncharacteristically) upfront with his thought process and I don't see him trying the whole vote Nacho + push the possibility of a Jason/Sotty team when it gets brought up. I think he'd take a much more conservative approach as scum that doesn't involve doing something he knows would draw a lot of negative attention to himself.

- I absolutely hate Jason's play this game. The dude's just generally been coasting and when he comes in to post, it's just lame posturing about CES's quickhammer. The line of posts starting with #403 where he just assumes scum motivation behind CES's quickhammer and then progression into questioning him about it in a very leading way in #406 really sucks too. That said, I could easily see him being town here given what little I know about his meta (will have to go through this again when I get some more time).

- I think FT and Syryana are both being severely underestimated. There are little things here and there that make me think they're a lot more competent than your average newbie (specifically, the level of detail involved in Syr's CES/FT case) and so I get the impression that I've been giving them too much of a free pass.

- I took a look at the Shadow Hunters II Micro a while back and Sotty seemed a lot more disinterested and "stuck on her scumreads" (to use her phrase) and I think it stands quite a bit in contrast with her play here where she's a lot more emotionally invested and more willing to step back and reconsider things. I'll check out some of her other games to be sure, though. I do want her to elaborate a bit more on the Jason read though (ongoing is not going to cut it here). I'm punting on her being town at the moment.

- I reread Nacho's ISO and it's still UGH...I think what differentiates him from Jason in my mind this game is that I have higher expectations for him and he's been completely lazy/disengaged here, there's none of the fire I've seen from him in any of the town games we've played together and I get the impression that his push on Jason is just him going after low hanging fruit. So yeah, vote sticks until I figure stuff out.

[Sotty7]

Sotty, I think continuing this won't be productive, but it seems like something keeps getting lost in the translation here.

Hey! I agree. Dropping this crap, because it's crap. You're town, I'm over it.

Syryana's vote of Jason is terribad and I would like to know why him over Four. I like CES bringing that up.

[Nachomamma8]

More like making an empty statement with little to back it up with.

Then where did lining up lynches come from?

exactly, its a load of tosh.. you bus and bus hard as scum.

If she played the same as scum all of the time, she wouldn't be a good scum player.

I think there is a good chance, fourT put Whiskers in the position for a Quick hammer.. there is also this from D1

The only thing outside of the L-1 vote was OMGUS from page 6?

I suggest you read, Josh was already a scumread of mine before whiskers came in

What did your support accomplish?

That said, I could easily see him being town here given what little I know about his meta (will have to go through this again when I get some more time).

what part of his meta

- I reread Nacho's ISO and it's still UGH...I think what differentiates him from Jason in my mind this game is that I have higher expectations for him and he's been completely lazy/disengaged here, there's none of the fire I've seen from him in any of the town games we've played together and I get the impression that his push on Jason is just him going after low hanging fruit. So yeah, vote sticks until I figure stuff out.

If you want me to be more interesting, then entertain me, give me a reason to be engaged. Otherwise I'm just dragging my feet until you guys make a strong push somewhere or suddenly realize "dismissing jason because it's jason is not good reasoning and hey he's actually scummy".

[Zachrulez]

Syryana has been prodded.

[Dazed and Confused]

Nacho, do you still think it's a Sotty-jason scumteam?

If you want me to be more interesting, then entertain me, give me a reason to be engaged. Otherwise I'm just dragging my feet until you guys make a strong push somewhere or suddenly realize "dismissing jason because it's jason is not good reasoning and hey he's actually scummy".

I don't want this to sound harsh, because I like you and respect you as a Mafia player, but we're here to find scum, not to keep you entertained. There's plenty of stuff to engage with if you try. (Alternately, don't sign up for additional games in the first place if you're in so many that you can't pretend to care about all of them). Did you read our posts before the last one? You'd see that you are actually our number one

barrier

to voting jason right now. If you got sucked into a black hole and removed from the game, or if you were mod-confirmed as town, our vote would be on jason. But you're here. So our vote is on you instead. How does that make you feel?

[Syryana]

Wall inc.

[jasonT1981]

Sixty and Dazzled and Charmed both seemed like obvious enough kills. I don't think speculating on the nightkill is particularly fruitful when there are no strong reasons to favour one or the other; the reason could easily be something silly or idiosynchratic.

So why did you ask in the first place? I mean if there is no point specualting?

[Syryana]

I have many things to respond to, so time to get cracking. Quotes!

Syryana, what made you go for jason in particular? He was ranked a lot lower than some other people on your suspect list. (And yes, I still need to answer your question, particularly since I've been pretty vague about you so far, but I'm lazy and easy posts come first.)

I will deal with my reasoning on Jason shortly. Some folks have been asking things that naturally lead into this, and other folks' reactions to it are also relevant.

What I don't like about this is, 1) he didn't have a scumread on me until after I started calling him scum, and 2) he voted for CES when he should have been voting for Nacho (his only real scumread). His actions/behavior does not line up with his thought process. He also voted for Jason instead of Nacho, again when he had Jason down as null but Nacho down as scum. It comes down to Syryana's thought process having very little depth to it (at its clear worst when he's not sheeping someone else's thoughts), and the fact Syryana's not even acting fully on his thoughts.

I did in fact have a scumread on you before you started calling me scum; I just didn't have you as my top choice. You see, I found your impugning of my vote of CES highly suspect; I felt most of the other players would have asked for reasoning rather than outright attacking me, as you did. That pushed you right up the scale from vaguely scummy to scumpartner. As for my thought process, the process I provided in #450 was to provide you my thoughts at the time of my original vote of CES, i.e. my thoughts on Day 1. I had originally intended to vote Nacho or Jason, but my brain caught fire with these wondrously paranoid imaginings when Day 2 arrived and CES was alive. I couldn't wrap my head around it; why on earth would scum leave someone that dangerous alive, even if he is looking really scummy with the quickhammer? So, I voted him, you walked out of the wings and attacked me for doing so, and you ended up his perfect scumpartner. As for my vote on Jason, I will explain that forthwith.

I have several reasons for voting Jason, rather than Nacho or FT. The first of these reasons is actually quite similar to D+C's alleged reason for policy-voting CES: I had zero on Jason and I wanted to apply a little pressure to him. Considering how vocal he got (comparatively) after my vote, mission accomplished. No, I don't believe my vote is the reason he got talky, but let's not get caught up in semantics. As for not voting FT, once I accepted that my case on CES was more than a little specious, some of my arguments on FT went out the window. Like the L-1 quickhammer setup scenario, for example. There is still a significant possibility that FT is scum (the Sixty kill makes sense for FTscum, his reactions to my voting CES are still suspect, etc.), but I didn't vote him because I felt like that would have little to no effect in getting information from him; folks would have expected me to vote him, taking all the heat out of my vote. I didn't vote Nacho for much the same reason; Distracted and Disconcerted were (and still are) already piling a load of heat on him, and I wanted my vote to pressure someone else.

Another reason for voting Jason was the reactions it would get out of others; e.g. Sotty, D+D. Unfortunately that part didn't work quite so well as I had hoped; the reactions were more in the nature of "What the hell noob" than any sort of meaningful dialogue. I'll chalk that one up to a learning experience.

After reading Jason's latest posts, I found little in them that made me want to change my vote: his analysis was poorly thought out and/or nonexistent, his reasoning behind why Sotty's change of heart about him is vague and unjustified, his responses to Nacho parroted me in places and were again vague. Jason has time and again evaded answering the most important question in this game: "Why?". I don't give a fat damn what Jason (or anyone else for that matter) thinks, I want to know why they think it. And Jason, moreso than anyone else in this game, has avoided answering that question.

So that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I voted (and am continuing to vote) Jason.

- I think FT and Syryana are both being severely underestimated. There are little things here and there that make me think they're a lot more competent than your average newbie (specifically, the level of detail involved in Syr's CES/FT case) and so I get the impression that I've been giving them too much of a free pass.

I would like to point out that this is not my first time playing Mafia. I am new to this site, but I am not new to the game. I am of course nowhere near the levels of veterans like Sixty, D+D, CES, but I know a tad more about how to play than the average newbie, yes. I originally began playing Mafia with other people from my guild in World of Warcraft, but they didn't have the interest in the game that I did, and after playing a few games with the same 9 people I wanted to find somewhere that took Mafia seriously. I ended up here. So by all means, tear me apart. Maybe I'll learn something.

[Zachrulez]

Vote count bump.