Mafiascum.net

In post 473, Icebox wrote:Actually, @Everyone: Why are you voting me. Give your reasons. Do not requote yourself.

-Rem

In post 29, Icebox wrote: 1. I am town. I know it because I received a town role pm. I know it because I have confidence in my ability to read and not misinterpret my role message. I know it because of how I will play this game, which is to search for Mafia and werewolves and to keep the town alive.

You overdid it here by trying to convince us so hard that you were town. It feels fake. I've found that normally those who overemphasize that they're town are actually scum. I don't put much stock in your "trust tell". It's too much WIFOM. I tried to give you a break because of it, and watched you to see what you would do, but the WIFOM continued, and I felt that I was right in my initial assessment.

In post 198, Icebox wrote:

In post 193, Bulbazak wrote:Notes before I leave for the day:

Autti's #176 has robots in it.

Still not wild about Mac's play, but at least he's starting to participate.

Due to #188, should TNE flip scum, Icebox is likely his partner.

Just like how you're scum if fuzzy flip scum.

As I explained earlier, the Autti comment ended up being an inadvertent reaction test, which everybody who responded to the post addressed. Except you. Instead, you skipped right to the end to address a suspicion based on association, and one that admittedly was not as strong. I essentially called you scum, and you responded with only "I'm not scum. You're scum!", which is essentially OMGUS (And yes, I know that there wasn't a vote on either side, but it's the same principle. You called someone scum for calling you scum.).

In post 302, Icebox wrote:*Unless of course we're on the same team.

-Rem

This post is an extreme bit of WIFOM and CAN NOT have come from town. If town feels that they may be mistaken, they either don't mention it, or they downplay it in how they post, normally via vocabulary. Rarely do they say that they might be wrong, and they NEVER say "Unless we're on the same team." That bit of WIFOM does not help town one bit, and it weakens the town read on Klick and opens up doubt on what was a strong town read for many people. Town would never do that, because it plays against their wincon and is essentially a lie, since they know that they're not scum, so there's no reason to present that WIFOM to the rest of the town.

Point is, I can't see any of this coming from a town mindset. Therefore, you are my strongest scumread.

I know for a fact you're wrong.

I've already explained all of these behaviors. The fact you can't detect the truth of them is partly your failing, and partly mine. But you are responsible for your interpretations and analysis, not me. You're assuming I think like other players, that I don't have motivations outside of mafia that make me say these things or that I don't have particular quirks.

First: Of course it looked forced, I'm using it as a trust tell. I am going to unnaturally go out of my way to call myself town when I'm town.
Furthermore, I've tried to do exactly what I said. I was being entirely serious, and while Fuzzy says I don't follow up. That is exactly what I have been trying to do. That's your opinion on what I was trying to do. I've already explained my actual motivation. You not believing it is your choice, but ultimately you've decided this, you're wrong. And this will be proven one way or another and the beautiful thing about trust tells is that, that is how they work. They get stronger the more times, I use it and demonstrate I wasn't lying.

Second: Did you think I would discontinue using it just because you voted me? Of course I'm going to keep doing it, given that is what I said I was going to do. I will continue to call myself town as town.

Third: Your reaction test, is not very good given your results. It's not an inadvertent reaction test, if you don't plan it and decide what you're looking for beforehand. You don't know how to interpret your results, and your conclusion about me only proves that. That wasn't a reaction test, that was just something you said and then noticed a bunch of people responded to it and then you noticed, "hey that guy didn't!"

Furthermore GIF already responded to this.

In post 386, Icebox wrote:

In post 287, Bulbazak wrote:You, however, didn't, and only commented on my calling you scum. It was a knee-jerk reaction. You essentially said, "I'm not scum! You're scum!", which of course sets off my scumdar immediately.

If you're talking about #198, I was sarcastically calling your associative logic there shit.

-G

I didn't post that, Gif did. He was making fun of you for your awful logic. Then used that logic against you, it wasn't a "I'm not scum! You're scum!" it's a "That's really stupid, let me show how stupid it is by using the same logic" and now you've misinterpreted it and in favor of your own reasoning.

Lastly, I already explained, I did not want to misrepresent the strength of my argument. You are assuming when it is evidently and abundantly clear and, .

There's neither town, nor scum motivation with that EBWOP, just me being me. Others are like that too. You say there aren't, there clearly are: Nice to meet you.

-Rem

In post 455, Egg wrote:Autti, (on Page 16) you completely misunderstood Bo's point. Why is Icebox's case on you OMGUS? A lot of people have shown suspicion of Icebox. Why would he single you out over these other people. "That's his choice" doesn't really answer that. Not if you want to keep the whole OMGUS point you made. Tell me why Icebox is scum who thinks you are better to OMGUS than all of the other people who suspect him.

Looking at Klick's look back to RQS, I didn't even realize bulb used players not in this game (or I forgot about it). That makes it easy to not have to leave connections to other players.

Icebox, you are just arguing semantics on the OMGUS thing. He's making the point whether he's calling it the right thing or not. Yes, his thinking is flawed. But I don't like the way you dismiss the point by saying he's calling it the wrong thing. Why not address the point itself?

Maybe OMGUS was the wrong turn of phrase to use. But Icebox posted a case against me (weak i might add, DBK's is far better) simply because i posted a case against him. Also notice he did nothing to address my suspicions, and still hasn't, he has just railroaded with unnecessary explanations of events not pertinent to the scum cases against him.

The minute Klick posted a case against him it was addressed immediately by him, because Klick is seen as town in by almost everyone currently. Mine however, never even mentioned it, his defense was to case suspicion on me in turn. That is scummy. Maybe i got a bit ahead of myself, and obviously i'm thinking my case is better than it is because i wrote it, i'm fallible and forget that haha, but i still think he is scum.

Icebox #476

Of course it looked forced, I'm using it as a trust tell. I am going to unnaturally go out of my way to call myself town when I'm town.

Except when you called yourself potential scum! Which was the start of my case anyway and one you have refused to address.

In post 476, Icebox wrote:I know for a fact you're wrong.

WIFOM AtE. You're really stepping it up.

In post 476, Icebox wrote: You're assuming I think like other players, that I don't have motivations outside of mafia that make me say these things or that I don't have particular quirks.

This is a game, and you need to play it as such. There is no outside motivation outside of the game of Mafia that should influence your play to that degree. If it is a personal belief against lying or deception, you're going to find out that you'll lose pretty quickly. Play the game, and play to win. If you are indeed using "trust tells", you are going to lose, and are playing against all future wincons, and are therefore a bad player. I'm assuming the opposite and using standard tells to determine your alignment.

In post 476, Icebox wrote: Third: Your reaction test, is not very good given your results. It's not an inadvertent reaction test, if you don't plan it and decide what you're looking for beforehand. You don't know how to interpret your results, and your conclusion about me only proves that. That wasn't a reaction test, that was just something you said and then noticed a bunch of people responded to it and then you noticed, "hey that guy didn't!"

Just because I didn't intend it as a reaction test does not mean that it isn't effective. If you are the only person who doesn't react to something strange, naturally I'm going to wonder what's going on. Couple that with the fact that you only responded to allegations of you being scummy, and I'm naturally going to be suspicious.

In post 476, Icebox wrote: Furthermore GIF already responded to this.

In post 386, Icebox wrote:

In post 287, Bulbazak wrote:You, however, didn't, and only commented on my calling you scum. It was a knee-jerk reaction. You essentially said, "I'm not scum! You're scum!", which of course sets off my scumdar immediately.

If you're talking about #198, I was sarcastically calling your associative logic there shit.

-G

I didn't post that, Gif did. He was making fun of you for your awful logic. Then used that logic against you, it wasn't a "I'm not scum! You're scum!" it's a "That's really stupid, let me show how stupid it is by using the same logic" and now you've misinterpreted it and

completely ignored Gif's response,

in favor of your own reasoning.

Saying someone's logic is bad is not the same as explaining why it is bad. Gif's response is the equivalent of throwing poo, and I don't dignify such things with a response.

In post 476, Icebox wrote: There's neither town, nor scum motivation with that EBWOP, just me being me.

Then you posted something completely useless in a game where everyone is trying to deduce the meaning behind everything that is said. EVERYTHING you say and do is tied back to your alignment. Your personality can give it a unique spin, but it is still related. Saying otherwise is ludicrous. If you were town, there was no reason to say such a thing in the first place, as it should never have crossed your mind. If scum, it's the opportune piece of WIFOM. Given everything, you're either simply a bad player or scum. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming the latter.

I had a large post, but I realized that it wasn't what I wanted. It doesn't help town in the slightest. I will summarize it instead and remove the stupid bits.

@Bulb: Wifom is not a scum tell and it's not wifom given it is the truth. You're assuming it isn't. If you have nothing better, then try to get something better. Either by questioning me for my actions or questioning others until you can reveal scummy behavior, not just behavior that is unique or difficult to interpret.

@Autti, potential scum does not equal actual scum. The rest of your accusation is your belief.

I think Fuzzy is scum, because of lack of hunting, his out of character play, his survivalism. I disagree with DBK's and Bulb's cases that he is town. And it's clear to me he is having difficulty keeping his story straight. Further, his reads are extremely lazy. His comments on how I am playing shows a complete lack of understanding, that I think town would be able to recognize. They might doubt my scum hinting, but they will not deny it is there. It shows a real lack of interpretation or depth that I find is something newer scum have difficulty with.

-Rem

In post 479, Icebox wrote: @Bulb: Wifom is not a scum tell and it's not wifom given it is the truth. You're assuming it isn't. If you have nothing better, then try to get something better. Either by questioning me for my actions or questioning others until you can reveal scummy behavior, not just behavior that is unique or difficult to interpret.

First, truth is subjective in this game. Only a limited few know what is true. Everyone else just knows a limited version of the truth, which is unhelpful as a whole. If you're town, you that you're town, but nobody else does. Saying so can be construed as WIFOM, as there is no proof for it. We have to take your word for it, which is something that we should absolutely do.

Second, WIFOM can be a scumtell, because it's scum saying something knowing that town will try to ascertain the meaning behind it, knowing that scum knew the phrase would be dissected (But you knew that I might be watching, therefore...). It's a phrase that ends up being a waste of time. Town can say things that do the same thing. Normally it's involving something that we have to trust their word on, such as "I don't do this as scum". In these cases, they should still be handled in the same way as WIFOM and considered untrustworthy.

Third, I have questioned and addressed these points before, and I wasn't satisfied with the answers I received, as it ended up being more WIFOM, more "trust me" or "take my word for it". Point of the matter is that I don't trust you, and I don't believe you, and you saying that I should is not helping matters, as it only compounds the scum read. I don't see the town motivation behind your actions. Therefore, I think you are scum and that you should be lynched.

1. Then don't. But don't vote me for me for asking you to believe me. Vote me for scummy, anti-town behavior. I am not being anti-town, just speaking to you in a fashion that does not sit right by you.
2. It can be, but I don't truly believe it has damaged this game irreparably, I am still playing and still hunting and questioning. There are other means to read me by.
3. A lack of town motivation does not = scum motivation. Anti-town actions = scum motivation.

Can I ask that you spend some time and look over Fuzzy? And evaluate my case on him given his posts?

-Rem

@DBK two questions immediately come to mind:

1. What did you see in my iso that changed you mind? Explain the reasoning.
2. What prompted you to iso me?

-Rem

Well, I was gonna go back in your ISO and pick out some of the things Bulb did, but after thinking about them again, I didn't have that strong of a scum read on you.

So basically:
1. It wasn't something in the ISO that made me stop suspecting you. It was the lack thereof.
2. I wanted to look for things Bulb found in his case, but I got bored and skimmed the ISO. Forgot why you were my top scum read, tbh.

Will posy later tonight.

Was going back through Fuzzy's ISO and found this:

In post 121, fuzzybutternut wrote:If that wasn't why he thought the slot was scum, then he wouldn't have stated that,

alongside his saying that he and I were the scum team.

Zach never said that they were scum together...

Going to go over your case, Icebox, and give my thoughts.

In post 479, Icebox wrote: I think Fuzzy is scum, because of lack of hunting, his out of character play, his survivalism. I disagree with DBK's and Bulb's cases that he is town. And it's clear to me he is having difficulty keeping his story straight. Further, his reads are extremely lazy. His comments on how I am playing shows a complete lack of understanding, that I think town would be able to recognize. They might doubt my scum hinting, but they will not deny it is there. It shows a real lack of interpretation or depth that I find is something newer scum have difficulty with.

I don't see the lack of hunting, nor his out of character play (I've only completed 3 games with him, and I still can't read him.). His survivalism is a good point, as scum is more apt to do it than town. I can also see where he has been constantly backpedaling. However, I think in order to convince the rest of the town, you're going to need some more concrete points, which means you need to refine your case a bit.

I'm going to catch up with this game tonight or tomorrow. Have to finish up with some papers before I can properly commit time to this.

whats up guys whats going on

whats the setup?

2 mafia and 2 werewolves I'm assuming?

I only know that b/c I'm both a mafia and a werewolf

In post 47, fuzzybutternut wrote:

In post 46, Bulbazak wrote:For the record, 1337 is why Fuzzy will be caught in 3 pages if scum.

You do realize I just won a game as scum, when my partner was lynched early game, right?

I'm not as bad as scum as you think I am.

woah caught this post

I'd honestly give the credit for the win to Wisdom

but your play wasn't bad

I'm liking fuzzy for town and bo for scum right now

I'm at the top of page 4

is the thread always this desolate? No one is responding to me...

I guess I'm just waiting for your catch-up, Bacde.

Hey Bacde and GM.

How are you doing?

@Bacde: I think that there are 3 mafia and 2 werewolves. Not 2 mafia and 2 werewolves. I want to know your opinion on Fuzzy when you are finished reading.

-Rem

why would there be 3 mafia and no cop

but 2 werewolves and a seer?

that seems imbalanced

also why is there a wagon on FBN and no one voting DBK?

Hi Bacde.

Setup stuff - It's 7 Town (1 Seer), 3 Mafia (No kill), and 2 Werewolves (Kill).

And you should ignore your townread on fuzzy and vote him today. You may be right on DBK, but fuzzy is scum.

Hi Klick.

Where the fuck have you been?