Mini 1537: ATTACK ON TITAN (Game Over!)

[Plum]

Kagami just tipped her hand.

She's either a lot less good that people have been giving her credit for, or she's scum trying to protect a buddy.

Don't get me wrong, this occurred to me as a definite possibility. I waited to see her response while she might still have had confidence in my Townread on her. I'm not particularly impressed?

Kagami - are you really that sure scum had no information about the Weak modifier? As in, does your PM give you direct reason to believe that? Nothing in-thread suggests that they didn't. Even if the risk isn't small, your Broscum read rests on the assumption that Town-Bro wouldn't see it this way or wouldn't call out a mechanic or setup element that didn't make sense from a balance perspective.

I

didn't think it made much sense to assume that; I only did because your confidence implied you had information in your Role PM that indicated that scum didn't know. I just can't fathom why you think this is a good argument, which gives me at least some pause. Bro - you may be right. Hm. Really not sure here. It would explain one thing that didn't make sense - why did Kagami out what Weak meant so easily when Bert didn't get it? What was gained for the Town by doing that? It was a piece of information that could always be explained later if it turned out that it was necessary e.g. if people kept running Bert up after all that.

No. Bad. Very bad. Make it stop.

Why is it bad. He is spending a massive amount of time discrediting me and acting like he is King fucking BROseidon in his fuck-all-rationality castle sitting on his mighty throne acting like a fucktard.

I don't want to be too condescending here but I'll take the risk. I'm not here to referee theory fights that people get worked up about, take too personally or seriously, and vote on. Or maybe I am, but I'd rather people didn't make me spend my energy on it. This exactly what Town

does not

need.

Stop voting people because they piss you off, because I don't want to have to clean up the mess.

[Kazekirimaru]

I didn't misrep anything. If you are town, you really need to work on your communication skills. I'll just tell you honestly, you are the most uncharismatic player I've ever had the misfortune to play with. You don't attempt to understand anyone's arguments. You just keep bullshitting like you know everything and go into vague generalities like "depends" and shut down discussion. You never really engaged anything I said calling my arguments shit or undermining them, not to mention discrediting me. All I am asking is for you to use your brain and actually understand what I am saying.

Eh? Why are you talking to your supposed scumread like he's a townie?

[BROseidon]

Holy fucking shit. I've explained everything. I've run through my logic in a way that makes sense. I tried to lay things out for you, and you kept sidestepping the issue. I explained things multiple times, so sorry not sorry for pointing out that you're being dense. I don't fucking care if it's intentional or unintentional, you can go fuck off.

I'll be back tomorrow. Kagami+F-16 make me want to punch a kitten.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am just really tired of this crap.

I need to step away from this game for a bit and hopefully talk to someone that actually makes sense like Tammy. I'll probably check back later tonight.

[Kagami]

C&H dead QT is also quite civil; I don't buy it.

If only two players are weak, which would seem to be the case, there's no reason scum would be told about it by default. At the very best case for town, it would give two less-than ICs, shifting balance by around 12%, which is far from terrible. The game could even be balanced with this possibility in mind, which would make a lot of sense, since the weak miller would likely claim straight out of the gate.

There is plenty of reason to believe scum didn't get mod information about it, and you've done little to explain your certainty that they did other than to say the mod is terrible if they didn't.

p-edit: plum - No, there was no special reason to believe they wouldn't have known about it beyond my own experience reading games. Bro points out that all abilities in sabotage mafia were revealed to scum, but that was a very special case in which the central mechanic was that scum can sabotage those abilities. In general, I don't think it's terribly common for scum to be told about town PRs and other abilities in a closed setup, and I don't understand why he would be so confident that they did.
I've since changed my opinion on this based on reading the manga. At the beginning of the game, I had only watched the anime, but the manga reveals that weak probably comes with something else that was hidden. Scum may very well have been told about that aspect.

[Plum]

1) I disagree with your assessment of the likelihood based on my own experience in games and as a Moderator who's constructed Theme setups and had them reviewed.
2) This is a horrible reason to suspect Bro. Your assessment of what

others

think is likely to be unbalanced is obviously different here from more than just his.

[Kagami]

1) I disagree with your assessment of the likelihood based on my own experience in games and as a Moderator who's constructed Theme setups and had them reviewed.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Plum]

I think it's unlikely that the Weak modifier was unknown to scum absent Town with Mod-derived information suggesting they don't. It's a potential significant balance issue which is most easily fixed by giving scum some information about this. It is incredibly swingy and a worse fix to assume that Town would semi-confirm at least a couple of people based on claiming Weak and give scum extra power to combat that - especially given that Weak players are presumably intended as a buff to scum both in terms of having outs for not being commuted out of Night kills the entire game and WIFOM shelters for massclaim and other scenarios. In this specific case, I think that things played out to strongly indicate Bert Town.

[pieguyn]

What are your thoughts about Dan?

I don't like how he doesn't explain much at first although unfortunately it's prob just playstyle and there's nothing to do about it

I didn't read 22 as a relatively serious post and figured it was questioning to get out of RVS, whereas 46 was way more serious. so idk what the hell is up with his read on you. it feels playstyle based but I do think it's a reasonable read from a town POV. I agree with most of his other reads and I think his thought process behind the way he went about questioning people was legitimate. however, idk if he can fake as scum. currently null with a really slight town lean floating somewhere between null and null-town

I'm using him using it to obfuscate my point and turn the attack on me to push. He misinterpreted my point, used that against me, and then didn't back off on it, instead trying to keep it as a point against me.

says the guy who is STILL bringing up "posturing" despite the fact that it's been literally proven incorrect, due to the fact that the game isn't exclusively based off the manga

this logic is contradictory as fuck

Again, are you asserting that there's 1 scum in {me, Pie}

and if I'm apparently so obvscum why is he questioning this?

Scum motivation behind dropping a line of questioning is that it allows one to appear like they're trying to figure things out without having to push anything too hard.

And how is it any different from town dropping a line of questioning because they want to figure things out and take a step back? Your answer seems to be "it looks like town, scum try to look like town, so it is scum."

agree with this and yet he claimed I was using this exact reasoning against him (when I wasn't) and that it was bullshit

Holy fucking shit. I've explained everything. I've run through my logic in a way that makes sense. I tried to lay things out for you, and you kept sidestepping the issue. I explained things multiple times, so sorry not sorry for pointing out that you're being dense. I don't fucking care if it's intentional or unintentional, you can go fuck off.

I'll be back tomorrow. Kagami+F-16 make me want to punch a kitten.

go look at imperishable night and how zmuffin pulled this kitten shit
probably not alignment indicative, but just saying ~

[pieguyn]

I'm completely against the F-16 wagon

F-16 is one of those players who can town it the fuck up. if he's town, I'm sure he'll do this sometime during the game. if anything his frustration at the wagon on him feels genuine so I'd argue he's done it already. also I think all the accusations on him are p much playstyle based. yes, every single one. I'm not entirely familiar with his style but that's the feeling I get from him 0.0

I originally thought there was even more to gain because I believed that town and scum would react in alignment indicative ways and thought I could establish patterns hence the analysis of every player in the game as opposed to just the ones that were playing.

I realized as I finished the analysis that there were no set patterns and the only information I could gain was an insight into how the players in the game reacted to a miller claim and compare and contrast with how they did here.

this is also smth I'd expect from F-16-town although idk if he can fake as scum. from what I can tell, F-16 tries to look at all things objectively. if there's no pattern he doesn't hesitate to point it out

Eh? Why are you talking to your supposed scumread like he's a townie?

Kaze what the fuck
do you srsly think this is alignment indicative? I accused you of doing the same thing in AA:MFA iirc

I also hate the timing on this. is it a coincidence this came up when the BRO wagon was picking up steam?


about the weak claims: scum probably got a fakeclaim with the weak modifier in it. so they'd know what it meant that way and it feels like a more elegant solution than the mod just going "hey guys weak means this". however, Bert is town as fuck even without being "confirmed" via the "weak" shit and IMO the way Kagami went about it was town motivated. even if she's somehow scum it basically blew the game wide open and led everyone (or just me) to get a shitton of strong stances early on which is pro-town and way better than usual.

@Bert, F-16:

what are your thoughts on Tammy? IMO there's smth off about her. however, idk how to read her personally at all

@F-16:

do you think you could play like this as scum?

@anyone:

does anyone know how to read Kaze? if so what are your reads on him?

[Kazekirimaru]

Please quit confbiasing sometime soon, pie.

[Kagami]

plum, I have to think about it. I still think the certainty, certain enough to know that he's not being extremely offensive to someone, is unwarranted. I would have to be near 100% certain before I would say something like that. In no public conversation does he do anything like telling someone their modding is gamebreakingly bad.

[Plum]

plum, I have to think about it. I still think the certainty, certain enough to know that he's not being extremely offensive to someone, is unwarranted. I would have to be near 100% certain before I would say something like that. In no public conversation does he do anything like telling someone their modding is gamebreakingly bad.

... he said it would be if the Mod didn't inform the scumteam about it somehow. Furthermore you're assuming that because you think it's too offensive to take a chance saying Bro would have that perspective too, which. Too many assumptions, y'see.

[Kazekirimaru]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

[Plum]

Yes, yes, thank you Kaze.

[pitoli]

VOTECOUNT 1.4

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (5)

: Mykonian, ActionDan, Kazekirimaru, Brian Skies, BROseidon

Paschendale (2)

: Plum, Tammy

BROseidon (5)

: Pieguyn, Bert, Paschendale, Kagami, F-16

Not Voting (1)

: zMuffinMan

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2014-01-16 00:00:00)

Mod Comments:

[Kazekirimaru]

Yes, yes, thank you Kaze.

My pleasure. Could you explain to me why you believe Pasch to be a better vote than the trending topics today?

[Plum]

Sure, but first will you tell me whether you've gone to the effort to browse my posts on the matter or not?

[Kazekirimaru]

I recall you not liking/believing his stances on the weak modifier argument some time back, but I was wondering if you've had any changes of mind since then.

[ActionDan]

this is generally the time when I should realize things are going too well with Bro/F-16 having 5-votes each. haven't read latest pages yet

[Plum]

I recall you not liking/believing his stances on the weak modifier argument some time back, but I was wondering if you've had any changes of mind since then.

Where's my vote? Well, I'll get to this in a minute.

this is generally the time when I should realize things are going too well with Bro/F-16 having 5-votes each. haven't read latest pages yet

Unfortunately I'm unconvinced that either is a particularly good lynch.

[Kazekirimaru]

Where's my vote? Well, I'll get to this in a minute.

Fair enough, but I figured it didn't hurt to ask.

[Plum]

Kaze: Pasche literally and directly misrepped Kagami. He stated that she pretended that Weak meant Normal Weak even though she knew that wasn't true - but she

never

did so; from the beginning she stated clearly that it

wasn't

Normal Weak. So, besides an outright lie and a bunch of fallacious accusations that I lied -

Spoiler: This is really tl;dr because cases are scummy, yo

When Kagami said what Weak signified, Pasche posted a meaty post that did not mention anything concrete about the topic at hand besides 'not being swayed one way or the other' by Bert's Miller claim - the easiest stance for scum at that point. He didn't even bother to say 'I saw what Kagami just posted and [any follow up, even just 'I'm not sure what to make of this']. His post was constructed out of whatever he could say - and stuff easy for scum to say, too -

before

Kagami's bombshell, and he just went with making the post and ignoring it as best he could.

When prompted

about this, he takes the stance that Kagami was outright rolefishing. He here makes the blatantly false claim I noted at the beginning of this post. His opinion that Kagami was trying to out non-Weak for scum benefit is almost certainly contrived. His 'case' against me is scummy as hell:

Plum is mainly just a reaction to her tone, but she did go along with Kagami right away. She was one of the few not to react with "what's a weak miller?" My asking that was another thing I amended in my first post right before submitting it. But Plum fell in line right away. In general, though, her posts contain quips, emotes, and unsupported votes. But nothing resembling cases or opinions.

Try harder. Try harder telling me I lied about stuff. Seriously. That's one of the scummiest cases I've seen in a while. It is all buzzwords. It contains no explanation of why any of those things - assuming I behaved that way - are scummy.

You know what? Remember how CTD found me out in Boat? 'Assess posts based on how hard they'd be to fake for scum.' So. Looks at Post #115, Post #398. Look at them in context. Tell me that they're not easy to make and fake as scum, especially given context. Tell me that those cases aren't contrived and lacking in actual substance. Tell me Pasche is scumhunting. Tell me it's not just words words words. Go on.

[Kazekirimaru]

I'm not saying I don't agree - if you recall, I believe I stated earlier that I'd still be down for a Pasch lynch today - I'm just poking at you a bit for my benefit.

Anyway, lastly, how plausible does a scumteam with both F-16 and Pasch sound to you?

[Plum]

I . . . don't care? Chances of running up two scumbags as serious wagons Day 1 isn't super high? And I haven't yet seriously read F-16 as scum? I have no way of having a good idea of how plausible it is right now except by the broadest heuristics, and it doesn't even really matter to me Day 1.