Mafiascum.net

In post 473, Accountant wrote:I'm tunneling copper. If I'm town, then the tunnel must be good. If I'm scum, then I must be tunnelling a scumbuddy. Either way, copper is scum.

QED, lynch copper quick

This is absolutely a lie. You flat out told us after the game that as town your reads are either spot on or completely off, and that's why you basically flip a coin for your scumgame as to whether you're bussing or not.

So if you're scum the fact that you're tunneling copper means nothing as to copper's alignment.
If you're town the fact that you're tunneling copper means nothing as to copper's alignment.

I'd rather try to get my own read on him. Good to know I can't read you via not tunneling this game though. I thought I was onto something. :/

In post 471, Accountant wrote:Yes. GL made quite a few - I'm interested in what caught your eye.

Okay, here goes:

In post 192, GuiltyLion wrote: also I don't like his apparent belief in a GM/Asty team as it requires two massive assumptions that a) Asty must be scum for his RVS post and b) GM must be his partner intentionally not voting or drawing attention to him. And then while he was pushing it JaeReed didn't go after Asty himself at all, and he still hasn't.

Obviously I disagree with this part of Jae's argument, since I know I'm town, but I wouldn't put it past GM to be subtly dropping hints as scum so that if she got lynched and flipped scum, I'd be next. I think that GL makes the decent point that a newbie scum would not just come into the game and refer to their buddy in their very first post. Also, Jae's lack of accusations against my slot is telling, especially when he later says that a GM/me team is not probable, but I'm probably scum nevertheless. He doesn't provide any evidence to support his accusations.

In post 199, GuiltyLion wrote: It's scummy because Jae's argument is to take an imagined action that town!gm

would

have taken, then push that she's scum on that basis of not doing that. Instead of explaining why her actions come from a place of scum motivation, he's saying she didn't meet some assumed expectation of town motivation, which is a much easier case for scum to make. It's logic that starts with a conclusion and works downward, instead of looking at the evidence and building upward.

I can see this, and agree with it. He's assuming something and then scumreading GM for failing to meet the assumption, which looks kinda scummy to me.

In post 216, GuiltyLion wrote: That's my whole point - there's a key difference between "if you were town, you'd do [x], you didn't do [x]" and "you did [y], scum often does [y]". The latter is what town cases usually look like. The former is the kind of case you come up with when you're making shit up. Reread how Jae phrases this:

In post 120, JaeReed wrote:My vote on you was 100% serious in my first post, based off you ignoring a line of questioning that you should have picked up on, pointing out stuff from the newbies which you'd think would have earned a pressure vote then not voting them

It's also different in terms of what they're talking about, GM's point had to do with the idea of a "notable entrance" whereas Jae's point had to do with "ignoring a line of questioning" and "not voting". One might say all unremarkable entrances are scummy, but no one would suggest that all players who didn't vote Asty are scummy.

3. Like I just explained to Accountant, it's not the assumption itself that's scummy, it's that his entire scumread is propped up by it. Jae's case looks invented.

Here he again raises some good points: I could definitely see the case being fabricated.

Do you not think that Jae could be inventing a read on GM as town?

I do that all the time.

Like, sometimes you have a feeling you want to prod someone or gutread that person as scum but you struggle to come up with a decent solid reason why they're bad, so you ISO them and half-cobble a case together through bits and pieces. I'm not saying that inventing reads isn't scummy, just that it's shaky to build an entire case based on a single bad read.

In post 478, Accountant wrote:Like, sometimes you have a feeling you want to prod someone or gutread that person as scum but you struggle to come up with a decent solid reason why they're bad, so you ISO them and half-cobble a case together through bits and pieces. I'm not saying that inventing reads isn't scummy, just that it's shaky to build an entire case based on a single bad read.

Is this what you were doing there Jae?

In post 474, copper223 wrote:@Jae
Accountant is pretty set on me Jae, so no.

What I think is important this game:

- Check out my posting after GL and DDD entered the game back on page 8/9, I claim I was reaction testing them, GM, Accountant and DDD are bringing that to question while Dragon and now GL seem to believe I am telling the truth, what is your opinion?

- After that it's been a back and forth between DDD and I first, then Accountant and GM vs me, until Dragon replaced where the focus has partially switched to his views.

You're talking about the catch-up being a scum claim thing with the vote? I thought that at the time, so I remember thinking "well copper's town", but I dislike the replacements are more likely to be scum comment and backtracking as a reaction test. In retrospect you wouldn't know I'm town, so I wonder why you came in so strong like that. There's no real need for a reaction test when you could just poke at him in other ways? Like the fact that he fucking ignored everyone else with his catchup. He seemed to come into the game with the sole purpose of finding one person to push as scum, and his reasonings were flimsy as fuck. There were numerous ways you could have poked at him. A reaction test at that point wasn't necessary.

If you'd stuck to a line of thought such as "I can see where Jae's coming from if town" (which I believe was your stance the whole time beforehand, so it would fall in line with you saying the catchup was basically a scumclaim) then I'd be a lot less wary of the whole deal. It feels a lot like you expected me to be more active and fully push GL based on his shitty read on me (I refuse to call that a case because it's not; it's a pile of horsecrap) and you probably expected Accountant to jump on it too. When people didn't you found a way to back out of it.

I haven't read the thread so idunno if that was addressed, but you asked for my thoughts on it, so there they are.

Has that been the main focus of the thread so far? I feel like you, Accountant, and GM all have weird reads on me.. GL is tunneling based off an early push, which is why I think he's a good candidate for scum, btw, aside from the fucking misrep. He's just not this bad at reading me when he's town, and he's not negligent enough to miss shit multiple times. Which makes me believe he's intentionally doing it. That said, there were a few rare times where I checked the thread and he commented something that wasn't his stupid push on me as scum, and the content was fine there, so I'm not sure if I'm biased being the one that wrote the posts. I just can't understand how he repeatedly misreps.

P-edit - speaking of misreps...

I feel like you, Accountant, and GM all have weird reads on me..

???

I tr you, GM sr you. What would be a *non* weird vote, if both tring and scring are wrong?

In post 480, JaeReed wrote:You're talking about the catch-up being a scum claim thing with the vote? I thought that at the time, so I remember thinking "well copper's town", but I dislike the replacements are more likely to be scum comment and backtracking as a reaction test. In retrospect you wouldn't know I'm town, so I wonder why you came in so strong like that. There's no real need for a reaction test when you could just poke at him in other ways? Like the fact that he fucking ignored everyone else with his catchup. He seemed to come into the game with the sole purpose of finding one person to push as scum, and his reasonings were flimsy as fuck. There were numerous ways you could have poked at him. A reaction test at that point wasn't necessary.

Yes that's what I am talking about.

Does that seem like the kind of post I'd make, claiming I know for sure that somebody is scum on page 8? I don't know why you call it back-tracking when I never intended to stick with it from the get-go, something that should be obvious to you.

Sure there are other ways I could have gone about it but that's the one I choose and it's proving quite the focal point so it was probably a good choice.

If you'd stuck to a line of thought such as "I can see where Jae's coming from if town" (which I believe was your stance the whole time beforehand, so it would fall in line with you saying the catchup was basically a scumclaim) then I'd be a lot less wary of the whole deal. It feels a lot like you expected me to be more active and fully push GL based on his shitty read on me (I refuse to call that a case because it's not; it's a pile of horsecrap) and you probably expected Accountant to jump on it too. When people didn't you found a way to back out of it.

The reason why I thought you were town early on are:

- I checked the comment that you keep rolling town and found out it was true, so I found that being genuine expression of frustration to be more likely than not.

- Tonally the entrance you made was similar to what I observed when you were town and the way you pushed GM and then backed off also reminded me of the way you went about doing things as town when I town-read you the last time (it was also one of the main reasons why I did not agree with GL and thought that might be a scum push, because he came to the opposite conclusion wrt to the motivation for aborting the push).

I started to doubt that read when I checked your statement that you are not reading the thread and are giving 0 shits here because you are fed up of being town and found no other place where you expressed this dissatisfaction, the way you reacted to GL's case was also a confusing mess.

In post 476, Dragonfire wrote:

In post 192, GuiltyLion wrote: also I don't like his apparent belief in a GM/Asty team as it requires two massive assumptions that a) Asty must be scum for his RVS post and b) GM must be his partner intentionally not voting or drawing attention to him. And then while he was pushing it JaeReed didn't go after Asty himself at all, and he still hasn't.

Obviously I disagree with this part of Jae's argument, since I know I'm town, but I wouldn't put it past GM to be subtly dropping hints as scum so that if she got lynched and flipped scum, I'd be next. I think that GL makes the decent point that a newbie scum would not just come into the game and refer to their buddy in their very first post. Also, Jae's lack of accusations against my slot is telling, especially when he later says that a GM/me team is not probable,

but I'm probably scum nevertheless

. He doesn't provide any evidence to support his accusations.

Did I say that? No? Right. Fuck off then, mate. I entertained the idea of scum and town motivations for both GM and Asty later on when I was rereading the first page after my push on GM fell flat. My scumread on Asty came through association with GM, and my scumread on GM came from her not getting the game rolling as I thought she should + what I viewed as ignoring something she could have pushed on in order to get the game rolling. She explained herself and I ended up with a hypothesis (my ICs are always scum if I'm in the game from D1) with no backing and had to reread to see what else I could find to push on.

Surprise - that's how you play the game early on. You generate content. I found the first thing that pinged me, was going to target that, then found something that pinged me more, so I went after that instead. That.Is.How.You.Start.The.Game. THAT is why GL is scum. Because it's pretty fucking apparent, and appeared to be even to GM, what my motives were for that push. I explained myself, and he cherry picked crap and decided he wanted me run up for it.

Not once did I say "eh Asty is probably scum still". I laid out that Asty wasn't scum with GM because when I reread and thought of his motivation for his post being the way it was, all I got was "hi scum buddy!" and that would be something that newb!scum would be anxious to avoid doing. I think someone else ended up pointing that out, too. My issue was that GM didn't call out the post, which she explained that it's not something she thinks is anything more than a newbtell. Asty made sense as a partner to me when I was looking at GM!scum possibilities. I hadn't factored in his motivation at the time, only hers. When I reread was when I thought about his motivation as either alignment.

In post 476, Dragonfire wrote:

In post 199, GuiltyLion wrote: It's scummy because Jae's argument is to take an imagined action that town!gm

would

have taken, then push that she's scum on that basis of not doing that. Instead of explaining why her actions come from a place of scum motivation, he's saying she didn't meet some assumed expectation of town motivation, which is a much easier case for scum to make. It's logic that starts with a conclusion and works downward, instead of looking at the evidence and building upward.

I can see this, and agree with it. He's assuming something and then scumreading GM for failing to meet the assumption, which looks kinda scummy to me.

I did explain why her actions came from a scum motivation at the time. It was "covering for a buddy". It was a shitty read because I didn't factor in Asty's side of the motivations but you can't fucking say I didn't believe in it at the time. I did fucking explain it. Blatant.Misrep.Blatant.Cherrypicking. I found something that pinged me earlygame and voted for it, argued my points, was refuted, then backed off to take the time to reread. I did not start from a fucking conclusion. It's true that I have more motivation to scour the IC's posts considering that I still haven't had a town IC from D1, and so I might have ended up pushing on her harder than I would have pushed on someone else for that shit, but that is not starting from a conclusion. That is having a bias.

In post 476, Dragonfire wrote:

In post 216, GuiltyLion wrote: That's my whole point - there's a key difference between "if you were town, you'd do [x], you didn't do [x]" and "you did [y], scum often does [y]". The latter is what town cases usually look like. The former is the kind of case you come up with when you're making shit up. Reread how Jae phrases this:

In post 120, JaeReed wrote:My vote on you was 100% serious in my first post, based off you ignoring a line of questioning that you should have picked up on, pointing out stuff from the newbies which you'd think would have earned a pressure vote then not voting them

It's also different in terms of what they're talking about, GM's point had to do with the idea of a "notable entrance" whereas Jae's point had to do with "ignoring a line of questioning" and "not voting". One might say all unremarkable entrances are scummy, but no one would suggest that all players who didn't vote Asty are scummy.

3. Like I just explained to Accountant, it's not the assumption itself that's scummy, it's that his entire scumread is propped up by it. Jae's case looks invented.

Here he again raises some good points: I could definitely see the case being fabricated.

Pretty sure I addressed this already in this post.

In post 479, copper223 wrote:

In post 478, Accountant wrote:Like, sometimes you have a feeling you want to prod someone or gutread that person as scum but you struggle to come up with a decent solid reason why they're bad, so you ISO them and half-cobble a case together through bits and pieces. I'm not saying that inventing reads isn't scummy, just that it's shaky to build an entire case based on a single bad read.

Is this what you were doing there Jae?

I wasn't inventing a goddamn read. I was exaggerating it to put pressure on. That's what an early push generally is.

Jae is town. GM, do you agree?

In post 484, JaeReed wrote:I wasn't inventing a goddamn read. I was exaggerating it to put pressure on. That's what an early push generally is.

Good.

I am telling you now there is very little chance that GL is scum.

I joined your wagon for 2 reasons, number 1: come here and do shit because I am not so sure you are town anymore, number 2: one of the posts you said was fine from GL from my perspective makes him by far the likeliest town in this game so I wanted an all town wagon on you to see who was going to move and lo and behold Dragon, the player that seemed to know I was town when the VI squad mixed with scum was pushing me, took the bait.

This means you were likely right the first time and Asty did greet his buddy at the start of the game, because he is a terrible liar.

VOTE: Dragon

In post 481, Accountant wrote:

I feel like you, Accountant, and GM all have weird reads on me..

???

I tr you, GM sr you. What would be a *non* weird vote, if both tring and scring are wrong?

GM legit said that she probably wouldn't be voting me today. That implies something to me as far as her read on me that I dislike.

Your townread is freaking weird because you don't know my townplay well enough to call it. You know my Innocent Child "fuck this shit I'm dead tonight anyway" play. There's a huge difference in townplay where you know you're not ever going to be pushed on, run up to a claim, whatever, and one where you aren't confirmed as town with one of the first mod posts. That game I could coast, troll, call ppl "the voice of the IC" and not give a damn because I was already outed as confirmed town. My play here to start with was nothing like my play there was to start with. So it's not a meta read. In which case it shouldn't be a strong enough townread that you're not voting me today.

copper expressed a townread then iirc said he wouldn't vote me today then...voted me. Weird read. My assumption is that it was trying to get me back into the game. As it was, the fact that I got prodded and still couldn't bring myself to read the thread was what kicked me up the arse to just ask for help getting into the game, so it failed as far as its intended purpose, if that was the intent. If not, his chances of being scum go up mildly for the weird ass flip flop when I haven't even been around. It implies that he started reading everyone else in the game as more town than he was townreading me and I really doubt that's the case.

I was exaggerating my early townread on you but your later posts seem pretty town.

In post 482, copper223 wrote: Yes that's what I am talking about.

Does that seem like the kind of post I'd make, claiming I know for sure that somebody is scum on page 8? I don't know why you call it back-tracking when I never intended to stick with it from the get-go, something that should be obvious to you.

Sure there are other ways I could have gone about it but that's the one I choose and it's proving quite the focal point so it was probably a good choice.

Honestly, I would have no idea. You're an enigma to me. GL's push on me felt so crappy and bs that it a scumclaim from my point of view. You saying that while I was unsure whether I was being biased due to knowing my own alignment confirmed it for me, and made me just go "well copper is more likely town for seeing what I do".

It was not obvious to me that you never intended to stick with it.

In post 482, copper223 wrote:

If you'd stuck to a line of thought such as "I can see where Jae's coming from if town" (which I believe was your stance the whole time beforehand, so it would fall in line with you saying the catchup was basically a scumclaim) then I'd be a lot less wary of the whole deal. It feels a lot like you expected me to be more active and fully push GL based on his shitty read on me (I refuse to call that a case because it's not; it's a pile of horsecrap) and you probably expected Accountant to jump on it too. When people didn't you found a way to back out of it.

The reason why I thought you were town early on are:

- I checked the comment that you keep rolling town and found out it was true, so I found that being genuine expression of frustration to be more likely than not.

- Tonally the entrance you made was similar to what I observed when you were town and the way you pushed GM and then backed off also reminded me of the way you went about doing things as town when I town-read you the last time (it was also one of the main reasons why I did not agree with GL and thought that might be a scum push, because he came to the opposite conclusion wrt to the motivation for aborting the push).

I started to doubt that read when I checked your statement that you are not reading the thread and are giving 0 shits here because you are fed up of being town and found no other place where you expressed this dissatisfaction, the way you reacted to GL's case was also a confusing mess.

Yup, this is the first place I expressed dissatisfaction explicitly with just rolling town. The game that pushed me over the edge, so to speak. There are also differences other than straws on a camel's back between this game and others I've played but I won't go into them here for reasons.

In post 489, JaeReed wrote:Honestly, I would have no idea. You're an enigma to me. GL's push on me felt so crappy and bs that it was a scumclaim from my point of view. You saying that while I was unsure whether I was being biased due to knowing my own alignment confirmed it for me, and made me just go "well copper is more likely town for seeing what I do".

It was not obvious to me that you never intended to stick with it.

Go back and re-read how I play as town when you know that I am town then, since I know how easy it is to be wrong in this game I try to be as open minded as possible even about my own reads and the assumptions behind them.

In post 486, copper223 wrote:

In post 484, JaeReed wrote:I wasn't inventing a goddamn read. I was exaggerating it to put pressure on. That's what an early push generally is.

Good.

I am telling you now there is very little chance that GL is scum.

I joined your wagon for 2 reasons, number 1: come here and do shit because I am not so sure you are town anymore, number 2: one of the posts you said was fine from GL from my perspective makes him by far the likeliest town in this game so I wanted an all town wagon on you to see who was going to move and lo and behold Dragon, the player that seemed to know I was town when the VI squad mixed with scum was pushing me, took the bait.

This means you were likely right the first time and Asty did greet his buddy at the start of the game, because he is a terrible liar.

VOTE: Dragon

Funnily enough, I'm paranoid about buddying from you. It wouldn't be the first game that I was right on an early read (Ranger's micro I had the scumteam on page 2 then proceeded to fuck town over by letting myself get waylaid), but I have way more games where I been right on my reads early on, as well. Like, say, Donner Party mafia.

Reserving judgement til I have enough to go off from here. So far he does look the worst based off this page and the last if I assume GL is town.

In post 488, Accountant wrote:I was exaggerating my early townread on you but your later posts seem pretty town.

Ok, fine. Why were you exaggerating your townread on me?

In post 490, copper223 wrote:

In post 489, JaeReed wrote:Honestly, I would have no idea. You're an enigma to me. GL's push on me felt so crappy and bs that it was a scumclaim from my point of view. You saying that while I was unsure whether I was being biased due to knowing my own alignment confirmed it for me, and made me just go "well copper is more likely town for seeing what I do".

It was not obvious to me that you never intended to stick with it.

Go back and re-read how I play as town when you know that I am town then, since I know how easy it is to be wrong in this game I try to be as open minded as possible even about my own reads and the assumptions behind them.

You're aware of that, though. Which makes meta'ing you on that point worthless. Likely it's a weird occurrence that I wouldn't be able to say is town or scum indicative from you because it'd just be unusual, if what you're saying is to be believed.

Your town games would probably be less useful to me than a scum game, if I'm honest. I've seen you in the recent Kittens with Titus and Thor, but I haven't seen your scum game. I've only heard that it's extraordinarily strong.

...And if I wanted to read a game the time would be better spent on this one

UNVOTE:

Dunno if I was voting anyone.

Heading to bed. Thanks peeps for helping me back in here. I'll try not to fall behind again.

In post 483, JaeReed wrote:Did I say that? No? Right. Fuck off then, mate. I entertained the idea of scum and town motivations for both GM and Asty later on when I was rereading the first page after my push on GM fell flat. My scumread on Asty came through association with GM, and my scumread on GM came from her not getting the game rolling as I thought she should + what I viewed as ignoring something she could have pushed on in order to get the game rolling. She explained herself and I ended up with a hypothesis (my ICs are always scum if I'm in the game from D1) with no backing and had to reread to see what else I could find to push on.

Not once did I say "eh Asty is probably scum still". I laid out that Asty wasn't scum with GM because when I reread and thought of his motivation for his post being the way it was, all I got was "hi scum buddy!" and that would be something that newb!scum would be anxious to avoid doing. I think someone else ended up pointing that out, too. My issue was that GM didn't call out the post, which she explained that it's not something she thinks is anything more than a newbtell. Asty made sense as a partner to me when I was looking at GM!scum possibilities. I hadn't factored in his motivation at the time, only hers. When I reread was when I thought about his motivation as either alignment.
I'm pretty sure you did say that Asty was probably scum on his own, after you dropped the GM/Asty case. If you didn't, then sorry, it was a misrep.

I did explain why her actions came from a scum motivation at the time. It was "covering for a buddy". It was a shitty read because I didn't factor in Asty's side of the motivations but you can't fucking say I didn't believe in it at the time. I did fucking explain it. Blatant.Misrep.Blatant.Cherrypicking. I found something that pinged me earlygame and voted for it, argued my points, was refuted, then backed off to take the time to reread. I did not start from a fucking conclusion. It's true that I have more motivation to scour the IC's posts considering that I still haven't had a town IC from D1, and so I might have ended up pushing on her harder than I would have pushed on someone else for that shit, but that is not starting from a conclusion. That is having a bias.

Who is misrepping/cherrypicking: me or GL?

I'd better go back and look at that early stuff, because I don't want to be arguing something based on imagined evidence. But that post was kind of what I wanted to hear after deliberately agreeing with GL's case. Coming back into the game with such a strong, passionate defense does make me think you're less likely to be scum.

In post 486, copper223 wrote:

In post 484, JaeReed wrote:I wasn't inventing a goddamn read. I was exaggerating it to put pressure on. That's what an early push generally is.

Good.

I am telling you now there is very little chance that GL is scum.

I joined your wagon for 2 reasons, number 1: come here and do shit because I am not so sure you are town anymore, number 2: one of the posts you said was fine from GL from my perspective makes him by far the likeliest town in this game so I wanted an all town wagon on you to see who was going to move and lo and behold Dragon, the player that seemed to know I was town when the VI squad mixed with scum was pushing me, took the bait.

This means you were likely right the first time and Asty did greet his buddy at the start of the game, because he is a terrible liar.

VOTE: Dragon

I'm really not sure how I "took the bait"; I reread GL's case and there were some good points in it. I then posted my response to the case, hoping Jae would react, and he did react in a way I liked. I didn't actually vote Jae, neither did I say I thought he was scum. Like I said before, wouldn't scum-me have pushed you for an easy lynch?

If you think the scumteam is me/GM, what do you make of GL's case on Jae then? And, as Jae, GL and others have already discussed, what motivation is there for a newbie scum to greet his buddy at the start of the game? How is that indicative of someone who's a terrible liar? He didn't really anything that could be a lie in his first post anyway. If I were a newbie scum who knew he was bad at lying, I'd only interact with townies to avoid having to lie in the first place.

Messed up the quote tags for the first part:

In post 494, Dragonfire wrote:

In post 483, JaeReed wrote:Did I say that? No? Right. Fuck off then, mate. I entertained the idea of scum and town motivations for both GM and Asty later on when I was rereading the first page after my push on GM fell flat. My scumread on Asty came through association with GM, and my scumread on GM came from her not getting the game rolling as I thought she should + what I viewed as ignoring something she could have pushed on in order to get the game rolling. She explained herself and I ended up with a hypothesis (my ICs are always scum if I'm in the game from D1) with no backing and had to reread to see what else I could find to push on.

Not once did I say "eh Asty is probably scum still". I laid out that Asty wasn't scum with GM because when I reread and thought of his motivation for his post being the way it was, all I got was "hi scum buddy!" and that would be something that newb!scum would be anxious to avoid doing. I think someone else ended up pointing that out, too. My issue was that GM didn't call out the post, which she explained that it's not something she thinks is anything more than a newbtell. Asty made sense as a partner to me when I was looking at GM!scum possibilities. I hadn't factored in his motivation at the time, only hers. When I reread was when I thought about his motivation as either alignment.

I'm pretty sure you did say that Asty was probably scum on his own, after you dropped the GM/Asty case. If you didn't, then sorry, it was a misrep.

Ok, fine. Why were you exaggerating your townread on me?

Because I habitually exaggerate my reads if I have a weak read on a controversial player. It helps stir discussion, make people take sides, force lots of back and forthing that creates great VCA, etc. It's like copper's reaction test, only it's not a lie and it actually works.

In post 494, Dragonfire wrote:I'm really not sure how I "took the bait"; I reread GL's case and there were some good points in it. I then posted my response to the case, hoping Jae would react, and he did react in a way I liked. I didn't actually vote Jae, neither did I say I thought he was scum. Like I said before, wouldn't scum-me have pushed you for an easy lynch?

Voting is just expressing an intent, you did basically the same thing when you positioned yourself to be able to vote Jae because GL's case seemed valid to you as far as reading your motives (if you are scum) goes.

The fact you just prepared it without actually jumping and waited for his response is actually more fitting for the scum D1 profile I am building on you; gather enough town-cred by giving the appearance of propriety in a few obvious (to you) instances where town is being dumb and then push a wagon you think you could get behind as town as well.

I already explained why I don't think that's what you'd do as scum, add to that that when I read your scum game you made sure to stay on the SE/IC's good side early on.

If you think the scumteam is me/GM, what do you make of GL's case on Jae then? And, as Jae, GL and others have already discussed, what motivation is there for a newbie scum to greet his buddy at the start of the game? How is that indicative of someone who's a terrible liar? He didn't really say anything that could be a lie in his first post anyway. If I were a newbie scum who knew he was bad at lying, I'd only interact with townies to avoid having to lie in the first place.

I think it's not such a bad case to make at the start of D1 if you haven't played with Jae (that's why I was originally skeptical about GL, decent scum often makes cases on townies that seem solid but if you know those are more likely foibles of that particular player and they also should know it's possible they are intentionally throwing scum at them) but contrary to your case where you just replaced in and would want to establish your credentials first, I see very little reason for scum GL to turn around and start questioning Accountant over me while still taking time to figure out who I am scum with in case he is wrong.

If Asty was scum he wasn't operating out of motivation, he was just saying hello to his teammate and not recognizing how that could be a problem, to which GM likely replied, dude do you have balls of steel and are budding me from the start to give the wrong impression ??? (because funnily enough that's also what I did once with a bunch of power players as scum because omg nobody would believe copper greeted his buddy at the start of the game) or more likely are you crazy???

You also know that greeting is something scum may do because your buddy yuriko greeted you in your scum-game as well, so why is this a problem for you?

It's indicative of him being a bad liar because of the way he followed up GM's post by shifting to: ooops, I hope I am not disappointing my master here by having fucked up already but I'm a newbie so I don't know what to do, give me some time to fix it and in the mean time I'll avoid posting much and take a backseat.

In post 496, Accountant wrote:Because I habitually exaggerate my reads if I have a weak read on a controversial player. It helps stir discussion, make people take sides, force lots of back and forthing that creates great VCA, etc. It's like copper's reaction test, only it's not a lie and it actually works.

I should buy a face-palm machine for every post I read from you, in these instances I am always paranoid that I am underestimating the other player and this is just scum laying it on so thick it's incredible but sadly experience has shown me that it's more likely to be just townies.

You're not the first person to disagree with my methods and you won't be the last. Nevertheless, you should focus on the actual game.