Mafiascum.net

35:

Harambey wrote:The wagon was mostly formed thanks to RVS so I didn't have much to defend against. Besides, wagons this early on hardly ever get said person lynched. Why would I try to 'defend' myself against a wagon this early on? By staying silent I also won't give scum more information / opportunities to throw more shade in me. And the more I talk, the more I'm putting myself in a losing position based on the past. Because of how I verbalize things, I guess.

So, why do I get townvibes from this? Well, I think I need to clarify first that when I was going through, I was not focusing on what the post says so much as trying to understand from what perspective it most likely was coming from. Why would scum!Harambey stay silent in the first place? Nacho gave a possible explanation in the previous post, but is it the most probable explanation? I think not; I feel like scum in general would be more likely to actually do something than stay silent, even if they do not directly address their wagon. Also, I don't think the second half of the post comes from scum that often; it registers as something that a townie would say if they know they have been lynched for such in the past multiple times.

What I mean is that the post does not feel to me like an attempt to garner towncred or to place a "pro-town" explanation to his actions. Instead, it seems to me like his genuine perspective on his wagon formation. More so than that (though this is a bit subjective), it really feels like a post that is much more likely to be expressed by town than by scum. (And no, it doesn't read as an attempt to play it safe, but rather as I said before, an honest presentation of thoughts on the matter.)
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45:

Harambey wrote:I don't know how familiar you are with mafia games so I approached you here as if you're pretty new to the game. I hope this is okay as how it is.

Okay, so this is more or less a very minor reason to townread a person for, but like I said earlier, I was placing emphasis on looking at the underlying perspective expressed by the post versus the post's content itself. So basically, this post has town!vibes because of the fact that Harambey acknowledges what he is doing here. Like, I could see the rest of the post being made by either alignment. It is this last part that makes me go, "Oh, that looks like it came from town." (Honestly, this isn't easy to explain because this is a very subjective, more gut-based read than anything.)
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210:

Harambey wrote:Should we need one or two people as team leader(s) to coordinate everything that happens in this game? Things like: making sure that one discussion doesn't go out of hand, let people take turns, make sure that two topics aren't discussed at the same time (because that's less efficient imo). That's what I'm thinking of rn.

Unlike the previous post I commented on, this post can basically be summed up as LAMIST (Look At Me, I'm So Town!). It is fine playing a central role in the game; however, when you go as far as saying, "Hey, let's appoint some leaders that decide everything" while subtly implying "I would be a great candidate for the town leader", it basically amounts to a LAMIST argument. They are trying to draw attention to their "positive" and "town" aspects in a way that goes beyond that of a self-centered townie (which we all are).

In post 474, Scioness Sajj wrote:My point in 'Plus...' paragraph is that generally Harambey has been displaying surface level pro-town attitude but was to concern with his safety there to see an opportunity to actually do something pro-town.

To be quite honest, I think we all basically play mafia the wrong way. As in, we look for things that are pro-town and things that are anti-town; things that are "scummy", and things that are "townie". I personally feel this is the wrong perspective and while it may work, I don't think it is the best method (although I do find it the "easiest" method.) Think about this for a second: how often does a townie think very carefully before they post. Now, how often does a mafioso think very carefully before they post? Regardless of your answer to the first question, I think that most of us would agree that mafia tend to be more cautious than town, simply because there is more at stake for mafiosos compared to townies.

So, what does this mean in terms of actual gameplay? It means all those "scumtells" that are listed on the wiki are not scumtells at all. If anything, they should be classified as "derp!tells". Also, how often has a scumtell actually worked in practice (esp. recently)? I think the answer to that is almost never--scum are aware of the classical scumtells, esp. those documented on the wiki, and actively avoid committing them. On the other hand, I feel like most townies are not focusing on how they are being read when they post. They are simply presenting their perspective regardless of what everyone else thinks. And thus, sometimes (or even frequently), townies will misinterpret something, miss something important, or otherwise accidentally commit one of those "scumtells". And if people are scumhunting by what is "scummy" and what is "townie", that townie is bound to get slammed for expressing their perspective, their opinion.

I think the better way to scumhunt is to try to look at the underlying perspective expressed in every post. I also think that everyone should be aware of mastin2/mastina's wiki article on balancing probabilities versus possibilities. (If the link doesn't work, try searching for it; it shouldn't be hard to find.) Almost everything is for scum to do, but it isn't necessarily true that it is probable, and as mastina explains in the article, town should be focusing on what is probable much more than on what is possible.

Here's the actual link to the article: Balancing Possibilities Versus Probabilities.

Alright guys, sorry for the delay. I am gonna catch up on what has happened since I last posted and go from there. Been a long work day.

Man I wish I had replaced a different slot so that I could play with harambery, I love this guy.

In post 474, Scioness Sajj wrote:My point in 'Plus...' paragraph is that generally Harambey has been displaying surface level pro-town attitude but was to concern with his safety there to see an opportunity to actually do something pro-town.

Sorry, this is a little hard to read/understand. Are you saying you think it's scummy that harambey didn't discuss his wagon?

Also, are you saying you think harambey was being superficially pro-town but wasn't actually doing anything pro-town while he was in the game? If yes, what do you look for when evaluating whether something is pro-town or not? Because where I'm up to he's talking a bunch about his reads and how he's looking at the game and trying to talk with people and get them interested and I don't really think there's much better pro-town behavior than that?

Hope I'm not butting in.

LAMIST ^.

Okay, so I just got done rereading this whole damn day 1, and I think that after reading through carefully, I am going to

My reasoning is that I feel like I misread some of the posts from early and interpreted them in a way that was no conducive to how they were meant. Now, also with rereading all these posts, I feel like Ircher is our best bet for this Day 1 lynch. I went back and watched him flip and flop from one bandwagon to another throughout this whole day phase. I don't think that there is a single person who he hasn't voted for as of yet. Now, as far as my reads go, I can really only go off of feelings as I have never played with anyone in this game before. Still, here we go,


Teacher, Nacho, Scioness - Town Lean
Vulcan, Nancy - Null
Ircher, northsidegal, Draynth - Scum Lean

As far as northside and Draynth go, I would have to go back and quote some posts that rubbed me the wrong way, but I am okay with moving past them today and going with

In post 482, TheRampage wrote:Okay, so I just got done rereading this whole damn day 1, and I think that after reading through carefully, I am going to

UNVOTE

My reasoning is that I feel like I misread some of the posts from early and interpreted them in a way that was no conducive to how they were meant. Now, also with rereading all these posts, I feel like Ircher is our best bet for this Day 1 lynch. I went back and watched him flip and flop from one bandwagon to another throughout this whole day phase. I don't think that there is a single person who he hasn't voted for as of yet. Now, as far as my reads go, I can really only go off of feelings as I have never played with anyone in this game before. Still, here we go,


Teacher, Nacho, Scioness - Town Lean
Vulcan, Nancy - Null
Ircher, northsidegal, Draynth - Scum Lean

As far as northside and Draynth go, I would have to go back and quote some posts that rubbed me the wrong way, but I am okay with moving past them today and going with

VOTE: Ircher

I'm 99% sure I haven't voted for Nacho this game.

And my vote has most certainly not been all over the place. In about 75% of votecounts, it has been on Vulcan. Yes, there was that time I switched to Draynth, but that isn't super relevant.

Besides Vulcan, I've voted North, No Lynch, and teacher according to the mod-provided votecounts. (Draynth as well but that isnt recorded.)

VOTE: Rampage
Your statement is flawed in so many ways..... I'll explain tomorrow (when it's more convenient for me to post.... eh that means this afternoon actually)

In post 82, Ircher wrote:A Draynth wagon would be worthwhile imo. Not a lot of content and what I consider a somewhat suspicious leap onto my wagon. (Granted, the reasoning is somewhat valid, just not necessarily “fair”.
VOTE: Draynth

In post 97, Ircher wrote:VOTE: Vulcan
Actually, I really prefer this currently (in light of what I said earlier). Partially because the game state seems to have gotten a standstill plus my vote on Draynth wasn't really accomplishing anything.

In post 267, Ircher wrote:VOTE: Vulcan
Tbqh, I think we really just need a flip at this point. I don't think we are going to have much more discussion this day.

In post 278, Ircher wrote:VOTE: NSG

In post 289, Ircher wrote:VOTE: No Lynch

In post 321, Ircher wrote:VOTE: Teacher

In post 339, Ircher wrote:Town Vibe:
Alciel/North --> 109
Draynth --> 175, 187, 256
Etromin --> 33, 70
Harambey/Nancy --> 35, 45, 152, 156, 313
Nacho --> 164, 165

Ventriloquist

Rampage --> 270
Vulcan --> 14, 48, 105, 107, 118, 226, 234, 324

Scum Vibe:
Alciel/North --> 112
Draynth --> 51, 61
Etromin/Scion --> 13, 115, 247, 287, 292, 305
Harambey/Nancy --> 54, 131, 183, 192, 210, 236, 298
Ofrhz/Teacher --> 150, 215, 235, 263, 319
Ventriloquist/Rampage --> 126, 142, 193, 301
Vulcan --> 53, 60

VOTE: Teacher
Yes, I know I'm already voting. This time for realsies.

In post 370, Ircher wrote:Lynch me; I dare you all to.

In post 373, Ircher wrote:

Gladiate Teacher

In post 485, Ircher wrote:VOTE: Rampage
Your statement is flawed in so many ways..... I'll explain tomorrow (when it's more convenient for me to post.... eh that means this afternoon actually)

I mean, I am just saying your actions speak for themself. You have flip flopped more then a college frat boy at the beach okay.

I don't have the time or energy to go into this read in depth right now but I mostly don't feel like the slot is interested in being present and solving/pushing the game anywhere and I don't really think his reads are believable. He's had very little to say about any of the more significant things that have been happening this game and feels very comfortable not doing things.

In post 166, Nachomamma8 wrote:Draynth:

I don't really understand his thought progression on Ircher. His initial reaction here, while it's not something that I agree with, is one that I think tracks logically.

I don't understand this part of your read. How does his reaction track logically and why do you like that from him? He has only said that thinks Ircher was faking ignorance, it's not really a matter of logic I don't think? I don't really think the rest of your reasoning is very good and I think you're being too generous. You have several concerns with him it feels like and the things that you like are really tentative and qualified by other stuff so I'm confused why this has ended up as a townread for you.

I'll hopefully be able to talk about his content more soon so that you have stuff to talk with me about other than just this. I'm not really sure how you're supposed to respond to this other than clarifying the logic thing.

In post 202, Ircher wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I still got my eye on Harambe though. Perhaps he clammed up when the wagon gained momentum.

I can see scum!Harambe being like "Oh shit! They took me to L-1 already!" And not knowing what to say.

But we can

always wagon him later if need be

. For now, let's examine Ircher.

First of all, Harambey is an SE meaning they are experienced. Even if you disagree with their initial defense for not speaking, his later posts

clearly

show that he is a competent player. What I mean by this is that the probability that scum!Harambey reacts in the way they did (and are unsure of what to do) is next to zero. It is perhaps about as unrealistic as my expectations regarding your read on crepppy, so I guess it isn't necesssarily impossible.

I'm confused, it looks like you're arguing that harambey is town but you aren't townreading him very strongly?

If people could stop presuming me being flaky is scummy that'd be great

I'm rereading now

Flakiness isn't really part of my read I don't think.

In post 202, Ircher wrote:

Ircher wrote:Do you consider the above to still be the case; i.e.: do you still scumread me based on the above or is your vote now for a different reason?

You know, I love how Vulcan pretty much ignores this, though I am almost certain they were still on when I made this post. (7:45 PM for their post versus 7:53 PM for my post.)

I don't think looking at timestamps this carefully is very useful. I frequently make posts then do something else and don't refresh for a while, even if I am still reading or posting about other things in the game, and when I do then I won't see any new posts until I submit my next post and find them above me. If you expect people to be constantly refreshing and seeing new posts just because they have posted recently then I think you will be disappointed a fair bit.

In post 202, Ircher wrote:14. In 107:

Vulcan wrote:There are two ways to interpret my earlier statements. As you have done, putting all sorts of motives in where there are none -OR- as someone who is pretty much clueless, moving his votes around because he has NO INFORMATION to go on.

I am just going to point out that mafia is hardly a black-and-white game, and that there is almost certainly more ways than the two you suggested to interpret your earlier statements.

Could you talk about what you think those other ways are and why you don't think they're the world we are in?

In post 202, Ircher wrote:Finally, if you do a little research, you will quickly find that a 7-2 mountainous game is very scumsided. Thus, night play is just as important to winning as day play is.

(Mountainous is scumsided on mafiascum because towns here aren't good enough to win without night actions. That doesn't mean that dayplay is any less important when there are roles. If you expect roles to help you win in ways you don't think dayplay can then you need to work on your dayplay. Also, the most important part of mafia is having fun and respecting the game!)

In post 220, Draynth wrote:UNVOTE: Ventriloquist
People don't really seem interested in this and given there's like 3 days left I should be on a wagon more people are ok with I think,

VOTE: Vulcan Logician

That's L-2

If anyone doesn't want vulcan lynched, can you please explain why?

I don't think I can read this post and understand it at all as coming from town. I don't think it makes sense that he would abandon a wagon simply because people didn't agree with his scumread, especially when it wasn't a weak read and when he hasn't really talked about that read or tried to convince anyone of it. I think if he were town then his push on Ventriloquist would have looked very differently. I don't think there was even a real push there at all.

I also think voting someone just because other players are more okay with it is a thought process that makes any sense at all from town but makes a lot of sense from mafia.

Draynth has also not put forward any reasoning for why vulcan is mafia here or why he wants to lynch the slot. His only interaction with the wagon here is to ask if anyone doesn't want to lynch vulcan, which just ends up looking to me like a way to seem like he's interested in evaluating vulcan's alignment without actually doing anything to evaluate it.

I don't think the way that he's voted here without talking about anything that's been going on with vulcan and the discussion around the slot makes sense if he's town and I don't think the way he pulls off ventriloquist makes sense if he's town either.

In post 145, Draynth wrote:UNVOTE: Ircher
Reading back I think this is a bad vote. Will decide who I want to wagon after posting the below.

Right, this game is pretty stalled so I'm going to post a full readslist because I wanna get this ball rolling.

Spoiler: ofrhz (Town)

Feels like town ofrhz (Game is currently ongoing, I'll discuss it more when it's completed)
Long story short I like his line of questioning.

Spoiler: Nachomamma8 (Town lean)

He's an experienced player so what he's doing at the minute is probably to be expected, nonetheless it feels town to me. I like his thought process on vulcans read progression.

Spoiler: Etromin (Null)

Really just waiting on content.

@Etromin

- Who do you currently think is town / scum?
Have you played on a different site before?

Spoiler: Alciel (Null)

5 posts, nothing really to go off.

@Alciel

What are your reads currently (if any)?

Spoiler: vulcan logician (Scum lean)

After rereading I realised that idk what I was thinking when I voted Ircher. I think I must've read the thread at like 6am or something. It wasn't as big a deal as my first impression.

@Vulcan

Who do you currently scumread?

Spoiler: Harambey180 (Scum)

54 pings me super hard.
He reckons that scum are on the Ircher wagon, fair enough. I even accept his point about ircher being V/LA (Although i don't fully agree with it in the context of the game).
But, why wouldn't he vote someone on the ircher wagon then? Why try to counterwagon Alciel who has barely posted?
Feels like scum trying to defuse a wagon and divert to an easier lynch (ie. keep in mind if either ircher or harambey flip red)

@Harambey

Who do you think is town/scum?

Spoiler: Ventriloquist (Scum)

His readslist at 111 is the definition of remaining neutral.
142 Also just feels like an attempt to side with the situation "majority"

Spoiler: Ircher (Not sure)

I have this as different to Null because I'm still thinking.
Despite my initial reaction to his push on vulcan I'm now townreading him for it because I misinterpreted the interaction the first time around.
That being said his vote on me and then the quick switch to vulcan is weird.

VOTE: Ventriloquist
Happy with this for now.

I don't really feel like any of these reads are real. I kind of think there's a world where if he's mafia then he's TMIing that ventriloquist is his partner but I don't know how much I believe in that read.

If you are town Draynth I would really appreciate it if you could figure out what your reads are right now and talk about them and how you're looking at and solving the game because I haven't seen much of that, I kind of think you're mafia at the moment and I'd like to get you right here. I don't think my reasoning is super duper solid or that there's never a world you're town but there's not really much that I like from you so far.

If nothing else then interacting with me in real time could be a way to help me to see that you're town because that's often how I sort people best and it can be a great way for me to get a good read on someone when other methods are failing me. That might be hard with my work schedule but I can potentially put some time aside and/or phonepost with you if you can plan to be available at a certain point before deadline.

nancy

Nacho
Ircher

Scioness
vulcan

northsidegal
teacher

TheRampage

Draynth

I'm about half-way caught up. Time to pass out.

(Nacho I think you already know that everything I post is an open invitation for discussion so if you have any thoughts on my Draynth read they would be super appreciated.)

I drafted this last night, but I guess it did not post. I am super excited to see all the posts today/since I drafted. I look forward to commenting, but cant now.

******

@nancy - a response to 438.

I genuinely dont know how to read your style. You have jumped down multiple slots with posts like this, that have at least ten questions, but you havent really offered much yourself (explaining that you havent caught up or are still on page 2). I get that this is the way you hunt, but keep in mind everyone else has to be hunting and we need to sort you. Indeed, this is one point Im inclined to agree with Ircher on - it seems like you ask these questions in order to scorn the answers, as you did with Ircher, Scioness, and are likely to do with me.

With that intro, Im nonetheless going to play your game.

First, you asked multiple questions about my Scioness read:

• Why would scum not make an unexplained vote on a REnewed wagon:
  Scum wants both (1) to out PRs, so wouldnt return to a slot that has had L-1 twice, and (2) to have a mislynch go through so will likely try to convince others if they are going somewhere that has few votes. I saw this vote as towny. If you dont, you dont. I was explaining my reads so everyone could assess them and come to their own conclusion.
  
• Do you townread anyone who gets attention?
  Somewhat, particularly on Day 1. If a spot is providing posts that *feel* genuine or analysis that makes sense (Whether or not I agree), I dont want to lynch them because I think thats hard for scum to do day-over-day. Scioness has provided sensible analysis and posts have felt genuine - that is the difference between her and Ircher who have both gotten attention, and the basis for my different reads on two of the slots that have gotten attention.
  
• What in particular about Scioness's analysis is good:
  I liked her entry asking questions and stating her dislike of the vulcan wagon. I like her asking questions of lots of slots. I like that she made the effort to reread the game and try to understand the patterns and put out her own analysis (cough). What dont you like?

Second, you asked about my conflicted read on you:

• Does it make sense that [nancy] would immediately get into a spat with Ircher?
  NAI to me. I saw associatives from Harambe's defense of Ircher (and some going the other way). I called that out. If you are a team, after having it called out, it would make sense to have a distancing spat upon replacement. Claiming policy lynch without votes is one way to do it. Now, of course, if it actually came to you providing the hammer that would be different, but the spat didnt mean much to me in terms of sorting either of your slots. POSTDRAFT-Plus, your back to a townlean.

Third, you asked about Vulcan:

• Why does [teacher] scumread Vulcan if [teacher] accepts disinterestedness
  : Accept is a very specific verb for me -- it means I do not think it, but could be persuaded. The read as a whole was intended to put Vulcan on notice that I view him as an acceptable lynch candidate if he keeps lurking. If he delurks with some good analysis, then I could easily go back to my town-lean. I just dont like his play for the last two/three real life days.
  
• Why does [teacher] think Vulcan is trying to avoid attention/Has Vulcan suggested he knows Ircher's alignment
  : I answered this in the quote you are questioning. I had just made a rather long post saying WHY I scumread Ircher and voting him in 419. If I were in Town!Vulcan's shoes, I would have written a post with MY OWN case and voting Ircher. I found him simply voting and requesting someone else (me) to be potentially based in scum!-avoidance motivations.

I'm here. Sorry haven't posted. The game has really picked up. Wow. Lemmie post some reads