Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Untrod Tripod]

Although I can say that the whole let's fellate ffer and try to make a town votebloc brouhaha really was throwing me off my game

I really dont know what to do with willful stupidity of that magnitude

Sorry

[TellTaleHeart]

If it makes you feel any better, UT, I have absolutely no intention of fellating ffery either literally or metaphorically. If that's what's

really

throwing you for a loop here, know that there is a beacon of hope for you.

[Untrod Tripod]

Thanks that really helps

[Untrod Tripod]

I'm confused though, at what you think is the possible upside of trying to get under everyone's skin

Like

There isn't an upside there as scum

[TellTaleHeart]

No problem. It's the little things in life that keep you going.

[singersigner]

I'm not gunna lie, I'm not going to be willing to avoid your lynch for long.

I'm kind of wondering why you're doing it now.
Why are you doing it now?

UT's the kind of person I can't read. So. I don't. But he's also not the kind of person I policy lynch. So. I don't.

[singersigner]

I mean, I'd do it to get a flip, but like...Titus...

[TellTaleHeart]

I mean, I'd do it to get a flip, but like...Titus...

Titus is likely not going to be lynched today because of the number of people, including me, who think she's town or town enough to be left alone for today.

Beating the "you're scared of specials" and "you're not really pushing me" drums are not likely to change that either.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm confused though, at what you think is the possible upside of trying to get under everyone's skin
Like
There isn't an upside there as scum

Who is this directed at and what are you talking about?
Everyone's already said umpteen times that your temperament isn't alignment dependent and you even said it when I was town reading you a while back for it.

You burned that bridge yourself. Anything else?

[singersigner]

I mean, I'd do it to get a flip, but like...Titus...

Titus is likely not going to be lynched today because of the number of people, including me, who think she's town or town enough to be left alone for today.

Beating the "you're scared of specials" and "you're not really pushing me" drums are not likely to change that either.

Have you even read anything I've said about her? Like...please be honest. I think Shadoweh was the only person who read my case on her because she was the only one who noticed the links were off. Most people were like "nah she's town" but Titus was the only one who attacked my case saying it was dumb, but how could she have even known how dumb it was if she didn't even notice the broken links?

It's like she doesn't care about actually finding scum or discerning my alignment.
She tried to use Ffery's read on Empire to attack UT for still wanting to vote me, and now she's going against that because she's scumreading me for..what?? If I knew then I could maybe talk to her about it and figure out where she's wrong.
As much as she's attacked me for "not being willing to work with her" she's literally done the exact same thing.
She has this special bond with Ika, yet never addressed his questions about why she found me scummy in the first place, which is weird for how much she was trying to appeal to him through GiF.
Now I'm trying to draw it out of her and she has yet to articulate why she thinks I'm scum except to toss around buzz words like "discredit" or "redirection". Repeating those things do not make them true.
I don't understand how she's getting away with her weak excuse of GiF's crumb to her and how he ended up dead, or her suboptimal excuse for why scum wouldn't kill her (because that gives us too much information??).
She's pushing the all of the weak wagons with UT, Espy...the only one who she would actually be challenged on is mine and lo and behold, she hasn't even pushed it! She keeps soliciting other people to do it for her without pulling her weight and when I call her out on it, she "redirects" (see what I did there) back on to me about how I'm not actually scumhunting when I very clearly am.

Then there are so many holes in her play that I've already stated, and I honestly don't know how to more articulately state how fucking scum she is. It would be really nice if anyone but Titus appealing to Ffery's read on her could actually engage with me about why she's town, and if not, at least address where I'm wrong in my observations (read our interactions from 4662 to around 4679) other than "this is just how she plays" because that's a terrible reason to support a terrible logick train that is obviously influenced by scum.

[Oversoul]

Singer read this game

Dr. Who

I had much the same issues with Titus in that game that you appear to be having in this game.
I have no other way of telling you, but this is literally how she plays.

She reads things in a completely different light from normal MS players. She is like a dog with a bone too. She won't give up on things easy even if you prove that she is wrong.
I admit that I have been mostly ignoring your posts and Titus's posts because your interaction with her reminds me of that game so much. Plus, I think if you guys took a breather from one another we could *actually* accomplish something in this game like lynching UT.

I'll take a look at 4662-4679, but I'm not promising anything will come from it.

Ok, I read through it and I find your Viktor stuff to be just a massive miscommunication between you and Titus. Before I even saw Titus explain why she said "who?" I thought "She probably wants Singer to point out who would actually be Viktor"

I don't actually think much of 4662 holds weight to Titus? You conceded the part about Gamma/CDB and the Viktor thing is logically explained (if butchered in the representation).

Titus reminds me of mollie.

[singersigner]

Why do you want to lynch UT?

Did you look at her interaction with me with regards to Ffery and Empire and wanting to lynch me, then not wanting to lynch 100% accuracy, and now trying to make my slot lynchable again? How do you feel about the way she's been pushing me?

And if you had an example that's more recent than her being on the site for two months+a couple of games that would be good. I already sited my issues with pulling up games from another lifetime for reference. "This is literally how she plays" shouldn't negate the hypocrisy (ok not a scumtell but highly suspect), the other discrepancies I've pointed out, the inconsistencies with her choices and pushes this game, plus the AtE with trying to better herself and play differently, for which when she was attacked for it, she gave more AtE. All of that you can just excuse with "that sure is Titus!"?

What's fucked up is that I genuinely feel like her responses to my posts are with the sole purpose of not allowing anyone else respond to them and therefore get lost in the midst of everything else. I waited hours (and I mean

hours

) for someone but her to respond to my posts last weekend, and it ended up being her first anyway. I don't fucking get it. I mean, I get the whole lazy town, gloss-over, skimming posts, etc...I just never thought it'd be this real with someone as passionate about a scumread as I am.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba, I answered it like 50 times. :/ The mods aren't going to make a game breakable by follow the cop.

Okay. That would add up to a suspicion of the existence of a roleblocker, but you're saying that you know for 100% certainty that there's a roleblocker. That still doesn't add up.

Regardless, I'm seeing your thought process.

Townbloc:
Vezok
Gamma
Cheetory
TTH
CDB


Almost townbloc:
Singer
Titus

Kick Vezok and Cheetory out of the block, and stop considering Singer. At that point, you're on the right track.

His read on Bulba from his iso seems to be organically made in so far as the suspicion has mounted over the course of several days. Trace on TTH was pretty town too.

Try again. That vote on me happened when attention started to shift my way again. If it wasn't for that, Vezok would probably be sitting on DV or Titus.

I think his Bulba read stems from Bulba's interactions. Still not entirely sure. But the common strand of suspecting Bulba is clearly present in Vezok's posts.

What interactions? Go look at his posts in context. He only posts about me when I'm under some form of mass suspicion. Other than that, he ignores what I say.

Espeonage is scum for what happened yesterday at the end of the day. You're scum for playing antitown and don't even get me started about your mindless sheeping of ffery.

What happened at the end of the day? Why is antitown indicative of scum? You've been playing long enough to know better. Also, why do you think only scum would sheep Ffery and not town? I'm actually feeling really bad about an Esp wagon just looking at this garbage.

Am I the only one who sits down and thinks about the actions of both town and scum to determine the most objective action? :S

You are the only one who doesn't apply occam's razor.

Why in the name of whatever you curse at would I come forth as scum saying I traced someone who is confirmed town? Do you think I have a death wish as scum?

But TTH wasn't conf. town at the time?

And...didn't you claim to have detected on minor night one? Occam's razor says you're scum.

Occam's razor says something else as well. Also, this is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I think doing exactly the opposite of what mastin says and does is correct play.

Okay. Let's lynch Vezok.

Scum killing anyone gives the town information and the information I'm getting is that you knew GiF was the doctor and made it a priority to kill him.

Wouldn't scum know better than to out their suspicions about a PR after the kill? Titus may be a lot of things, but she's not that dumb as scum.

Beating the "you're scared of specials" and "you're not really pushing me" drums are not likely to change that either.

Hint: This is not a town line of attack.

Titus reminds me of mollie.

Singer reminds me of Nacho-scum.

[singersigner]

@Bulb...I only brought up Occam's razor because Titus was responding to I think vezok who had already used it... >_>

I'm also curious as to your thoughts on "she's not that dumb as scum"...wouldn't you think that a smart scum Titus would know that, and then be able to manipulate that? That's a pretty terrible/weak defense of her. I think she genuinely thought that with her level of engagement/reasoning with someone who's now confirmed town, she thought she could get town credit by being like "look how much he trusted me!"

What do you think of UT, AD, or DV?

[hitogoroshi]

VC 114 (Major Day 2, VC 2)

(5)

Untrod Tripod:

Gammagooey, Titus, ChannelDelibird, TellTaleHeart, Oversoul [L-4]
(3)

Titus:

Eseponage, Aronis, singersigner
(1)

Espeonage:

ActionDan

(Oversoul)

(1)

DeasVail:

Cheetory6
(1)

Bulbazak:

vezokpiraka
(1)

DeasVail:

mastin2

(5)

Not Voting:

Shadoweh, DeasVail, Formerfish, Bulbazak, Untrod Tripod

(mastin2)

With 17 players alive it's 9 to lynch. Major Day Two will end Tuesday, May 19th, at 2PM CST.

Major Day Two Deadline

(expired on 2015-05-19 13:00:00)

[Bulbazak]

Okay, going to post some general thoughts here before I get distracted again.

CDB saying that I didn't have a reason to vote him in Major Day 1 is wrong. I had made it clear earlier in the day that I did not like his voting pattern, and that I felt it was likely he was scum because of it. Just because I dropped the vote did not mean I dropped the case. However, his interaction with Cheetory Minor Day 2 highly points to town, and I'm having a hard time seeing the scum intent here.

Speaking of Cheetory, I'm not sure how I feel about him. A lot of his pushes and reasoning seems off, but then there will be moments where I see his thought process at work, and it is not one of a player who knows the alignments of all the players in the game. It looks really genuine, but again, I really have a problem with a lot of the pushes that he makes. This is really a read that my entire team is having trouble on, so I'm putting it on the backburner for now.

Moment of truth: My reason for conf. townreading Shadoweh imploded Major Night 1 with GreyICE flipping town in the Nightless. It looked like she had inadvertently slipped about knowing Empire's alignment in that game, which would have pointed to GreyICE as scum. I also realized that her saying that she doubted that Empire would switch from a town slot to a scum slot revealed evidence of her not knowing Zar's alignment in this game, ergo town. Given the GreyICE flip, the first and primary part of that theory was wrong (remember when I said Mollie was telling me my reason was stupid?). Second part is still sound, but a bit weakened. I do like her approach to this game overall, and I still have her as a town read, but it's no longer god-tier.

I've also decided that differing opinions from all my townreads are not enough to put Vezok in the town pile like I did Major Day 1. He's back in my scum pile, because even though everyone is shouting me down, there is something fundamentally wrong with his play, and while I can't pinpoint it, I just know that he's not town.

TTH may be conf. town, but her reads suck. I'll be happy to spar with her if she can withstand my spotty posting schedule.

I liked what I saw from Formerfish on Minor Day 2. He goes in my town pile.

Singer is still scum.

Did I miss anyone? No. Okay. Next up(ish): VCs!

P-edit: That's a pretty poor excuse for refusing to budge on a read given a logical argument. With that reasoning, we should ignore everything everyone does, because they could just as easily do it as scum. Just because you can do something as scum doesn't mean that you will or that you should.

UT is scum that is neutered for the day. AD and DV are town.

[Oversoul]

Singer, how many of your teammates agree with your Titus read? They seemed to be super involved early but now not so much?

I don't have any more recent games with Titus. For reason, lol.

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

As I said in my previous post, there's something really off about Vezok. Call it gut, call it whatever, but I'm really not seeing a town thought process from him and every fiber of my being is telling me that he's scum here. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm still not seeing it. Cheetory is due to the fact that I'm having a hard time sorting him. I'm not saying he's scum, but I don't think he's town bloc material. Singer is focusing on nitpicky things to push while not trying to figure out thought process or motivation. She's using it as a way to make it look like she's scumhunting, but you'll notice that everything about it is off. Like I said, it reminds me of what Nacho does as scum.

[Titus]

@Bulba, it does when I sat down and eliminated all other possibilities. If a plausible alternative exists, I'd be open to hear it. *shrug* If no plausible alternative exists, I will be certain of a result.

We should vote UT out and then having it out regarding these other lingering reads. I get the feeling that there's the UT lynch just hanging around as "he's scum" and it's going to happen anyway, is causing a certain amount of apathy.

I'm coming around to your thinking on Vezok.

@Oversoul, if I was a neighborizer, I would so be neighborizing you, for the sole purpose of trying to convey to you how I think. I was frankly pretty bummed when Empire subbed out considering he's had similar training on how to approach problems and I haven't played many games with him. My play has evolved since Dr. Who, more of abandoning what I suck at unless I have nothing else to go off of.

What are your thoughts on Bulba?

[singersigner]

Singer, how many of your teammates agree with your Titus read? They seemed to be super involved early but now not so much?

I don't have any more recent games with Titus. For reason, lol.

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

Well since all of them have been/are essentially V/LA, they haven't really given much thought as of late. I explained the one in depth conversation we had about Shadoweh, and Zar seems to have conceded I won't drop Titus even though he keeps playing devil's advocate with me. Mina thinks Titus is town, and I think Regfan...doesn't think she's as town as she once was? More of them actually agree on DV scum which is new a weird since I thought he was really town at the beginning, but then when Cheetory asked our opinion of him I ISOd him and I can see DV scum, too.

@Bulb...what exactly did you like about FormerFish?

And your logick train was basically "she's not stupid enough to do this" which can basically be said of anyone who's good at scum. Scum are fallible; if she thought she would get town credit for it, then I absolutely think she wouldn't consider it a mistake, or a "too stupid to do this" moment. It wasn't my argument, it was yours, so...not sure why you're making it mine.

She actually kind of reminds me of Shea, who prides himself on double-talk and being able to wordsmith himself out of scumreads, that when he does get caught as scum, he refuses to believe it was because of anything he did, but rather "luck." He calls it "town being right for the wrong reasons" and hates it. This is basically Sheascum in a nutshell.

[Titus]

Spoiler: Details

#352 - #357 and the exchange that followed regarding Mastina being town versus Mastina being scum over not posting is a very good position there. He's not whiteknighting Mastina but he's stating things that he believed to explain Town!Mastina. At the time, I disagreed with that read, but he explained it in a logical concise manner. His response to "nail Mastina to the floor" indicates a willingness to change his mind if he was wrong. Such posts indicate a person changing their opinion based on incoming facts rather than sticking to a narrative.

I found the exchange pretty dry and uninformative. Bulba simply stated a pretty easily verified fact, "mastin's not posting anywhere." Willingness to change his mind doesn't really tell me much because that's not a particularly aggressive or risky stance to take. I don't see it as anything scum wouldn't do.

#657, The interaction here with DV feels natural and mirrors my attempts to sync up with my townreads. Neither Bulba nor myself are emotional players, so the fact he's pushing DV to explain his reads in terms he understands is good. A scum player can just dismiss those reads because they lack "evidence" and its what I would expect a logic based scumplayer to do.

I don't think you accurately described the "interaction," and I don't even think it qualifies as an interaction. Nor do I think "interaction" means anything. I think the post actually did contain a hefty amount of dismissiveness.

#927 Bulbazak attempts to dismantle a meta foundation of my read, which is unlikely (but still possible) to come from scum. He didn't deny the facts I was using but provided real life context that I didn't have when saying that I thought even Bulba's meta was consistent with him being town.

As soon as you admit it's possible to come from scum, it's a bad point. Next.

#1207 I like the resistance to group!think, even though I like Marquis (now FormerFish) as town. Forming a group of people who all think each other are town, and eventually agree on a scumread after discussion is one thing. Following group think is a bad idea.

He also expresses the fact that many of his townreads are townreading his scumread, but doesn't actually outright change his read on Vezok. Again, townpoints for the observation but not outright moving of his read.

It. Cuts. Both. Ways.
If you're scum, you already

know

what cases of groupthink are ill-fated. That's not to say that everyone who calls out groupthink is scum. I'm saying it doesn't make you town. Also, conservative play nets no townpoints for me.

1375 looks like genuine frustration over being ignored.

"Genuine emotion is not a towntell."
I don't know how many times Antihero's told me that. Regardless, it happens to be true.

1540 makes sense as Mollie plays in a more frustrating, get under people's skin and see what shakes rather than pure logic. Mollie doing a reaction test through Bulba feels genuine. Mollie's much better at the early game, where there's less to go on. Versus me where I tend to be better at the end. So a reaction test from her makes sense.

I will need to consult with Antihero about this since he knows pirate mollie a

lot

better than I do. I'll get back with you shortly.

Spoiler: Bulbaread followup

It's not dry nor illinformative at all. It reveals a mindset and an attempt to solve the game. Given we know Mastina's probably town, it'd be much easier for scum!Bulba to ignore the exachange and thereby let me do his dirty work for him of damaging Mastina's credibilty. That's not what he does. Generally, I don't see scum with this many people to go through taking a strong position that could theoretically be disproven or cause them to vote where he didn't want to vote.

#657 - I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on that at all. Trying to understand a read is the furthest thing from dismissal. If you want a read not talked about, you don't ask the person to explain it.

#927 - Anything is

possible

to come from scum. Dismantling errant foundations for a townread generally are town, doubly so in a game as large as this. Am I stating that Bulba is conftown? No. If I was, this point would be evidence I was wrong. I'm saying Bulba is strong town. Which this does support.

#1207 - You're not quite understanding here. It's not just calling out groupthink that I'm giving him credit for. It's

how

he called it out. He said that he'd have to reconsider, but he didn't move Vezok off his scumreads because it was cool to do. Bulba has stuck to his read here, despite it being unpopular. He's willing to fight for his reads, and that's usually town.

#1375 - Indeed genuine emotion is not a towntell. It's what Bulba's expressing. I would expect scum to be thankful to be ignored. Then they can position themselves in a win-win situation. If the reads they were posting were right, see you ignored me in the early game. Now, you should listen to me at endgame. Lynch. If his reads were wrong, he can say that everyone was right to ignore him and buddy.

Reserve on my mollie points.

[Oversoul]

@Oversoul, if I was a neighborizer, I would so be neighborizing you, for the sole purpose of trying to convey to you how I think. I was frankly pretty bummed when Empire subbed out considering he's had similar training on how to approach problems and I haven't played many games with him. My play has evolved since Dr. Who, more of abandoning what I suck at unless I have nothing else to go off of.

So you think that your style of play is based on your training as a lawyer/law school?

[Bulbazak]

@Bulb...what exactly did you like about FormerFish?

This will probably be a little hard to understand, but I liked the way he posted in response to others, and I liked the tone of the posts. It wasn't strategic. It looked like he was really lost and trying to figure things out. The way he's approaching catching up and posting I find as more likely to come from town. It's not any sort of active lurking, but instead a hectic, frazzled, sort of town "out of it"-ness. I'm probably explaining this wrong, but I had a hard time seeing scum in his responses, and I just saw town who was trying to do his best in trying to catch up in this huge game.

And your logick train was basically "she's not stupid enough to do this" which can basically be said of anyone who's good at scum. Scum are fallible; if she thought she would get town credit for it, then I absolutely think she wouldn't consider it a mistake, or a "too stupid to do this" moment. It wasn't my argument, it was yours, so...not sure why you're making it mine.

My point was just because she admitted that she thought, or figured out, that GiF was a doctor does not automatically mean she killed him for that reason. The point is that we have no other data points to suggest what the GiF kill was really about. It could mean absolutely nothing for all we know. Titus being paranoid about being set up is a town trait. Is it stupid? Yes, but it's not a scum indicator. I believe Titus knows what the optimal play would be as scum: which is to keep your mouth shut and allow town to stew in confusion. Titus has already shown a tendency to overthink things regarding deaths in this game, so I'm not sure why you latched onto her paranoia regarding the GiF kill. The simple fact of the matter is that logically Titus is the least likely person to kill GiF for the exact reasons you try to paint her as the most likely. I'm simply pointing out that fact, which you are all too willing to throw into the WIFOM mill.

[Oversoul]

Bulba, why do you dislike those three people?

As I said in my previous post, there's something really off about Vezok. Call it gut, call it whatever, but I'm really not seeing a town thought process from him and every fiber of my being is telling me that he's scum here. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm still not seeing it. Cheetory is due to the fact that I'm having a hard time sorting him. I'm not saying he's scum, but I don't think he's town bloc material. Singer is focusing on nitpicky things to push while not trying to figure out thought process or motivation. She's using it as a way to make it look like she's scumhunting, but you'll notice that everything about it is off. Like I said, it reminds me of what Nacho does as scum.

I'm just going to say this now...

I am using the same reasoning to scum read Espeonage and to town read Vezok. They both claimed to be Vanilla Townies, yet both of them took different actions the first minor night.

As a vanilla townie, almost *no* reason exists to Detect. Especially on the FIRST Minor night. Sure, Espeonage thought he would "gain" a special power for it, or whatever excuse he used, but I don't buy it.

Spoiler: Espeonage Detect-gate

fery is a VT so there's nothing she can do by detecting sign. Tammy is my next-in-line townread.

Ok that's interesting. I thought I was a VT. :/

Which is part of why I was cool with creating wifom about my sign.

So not everyone has the universal powers that were in the op?

Tammy is still a bad pick.

Why would I be a bad pick even if you were town reading.

And why would the town need to recover from correctly town reading me?

Don't understand you.

FFery should pick the boon person or the boon pool we vote in. We know scum cannot influence uf she picks directly.

Ok that's interesting. I thought I was a VT. :/

Which is part of why I was cool with creating wifom about my sign.

So not everyone has the universal powers that were in the op?

Tammy is still a bad pick.

Ffery was stripped of hers. She's a treestump with a finite lifespan, not a VT.

Whoever gets the boon is going to be a target for Mafia.

So I think everyone needs to unvote. And then everyone needs to vote if they are ok with being booned. It spreads confusion for mafia over who is a PR and it also gives mafia wifom over if it is actually a good idea to go after whoever gets booned.

I don't want to see any votes on someone that hasn't said they are ok with being booned.

This is ridiculous. It is to literally nobody's advantage to claim anything other than being OK with being booned. PRs want it, VTs want to help cover the PRs, scum want to look like one of the above.

I have a feeling I might need to actually read the thread.

All of these posts happened within a short time frame from one another and to any *reasonable* person should have cleared up the confusion that Espeonage had. Yet, he STILL chose to Detect a universal town read on the first Minor Night. That is suspicious as fuck.

Vezok, as a VT, TRACED someone who he thought was scummy (TTH) trying to figure them out. If Vezok thought TTH could make herself town, why would he trace her? Why wouldn't he try to detect her and then subsequently kill her?

That is why I think Vezok is town and I am suspicious of Espeonage.
I have a strong town read on Gamma after rereading his play. He is vying for Espeonage so I am willing to let that read go to the back burner for now. Realistically, no VTs should be detecting to begin with. They should ALL be trying to trace people, unless they are trying to catch someone in an outright lie about the sign during a claim.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, the VC analysis will be done sometime after I get off work tomorrow, with my vote to follow. Until then, good night.