TV Upick - Scum win

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #50 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:14 pm

Shiidaji wrote:Firstly, why would scum gambit so early on anyway?

a) What are you voting me for?
b) D1 massclaim forces them to gambit early or not at all. Gambits made with little knowledge and no establishing posts is obviously much harder and carries more risk than a long planned or thought out gambit.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #51 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:23 pm

For the record, I consider Izak's reaction fairly pro-town. He seems to have put some thought into the matter and I don't find his opinions unreasonable from a pro-town perspective.

The Jakalope has places a shameless bandwagon vote, which I find more scummy here than usual. Scum hate being forced to claim on D1, their instinct is to violently oppose a massclaim suggestion. Scum is also less likely to consider the positive aspects of massclaim and to blindly follow the paradigm that "massclaim is obviously bad" because they think it is expected of them.

Shiidaji's vote seems somewhat contradictory to me, but it's possible he/she simply didn't consider the implication of what they were saying.

Shiidaji · Post Post #52 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:27 pm

a) Because of your Massclaim question and continued insistence. Partially for your immediate vote on the potential miller. And pressure.
a2) Jakalope and Xanatos did likewise, why only ask me?
b) Oh, I get it. I still dislike outing all the PRs into the open.

Your responses seem town-ish to me though.

PE edit: Duly noted.

Cobblerfone · Post Post #53 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:31 pm

Townreads
Izak
Jakalope
Crash?

Crash and Lurconis are not scum together.

Shiidaji · Post Post #54 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:33 pm

↑ CrashTextDummie wrote:
Shiidaji's vote seems somewhat contradictory to me,

Huh? How? qwq

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #55 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:36 pm

Shiidaji:

You seem to be incredulous towards the idea of scum gambitting early, and yet you're voting me, which makes me wonder what you think asking for a massclaim in the first post of the game is.

Cobblerfone:
I notice a curious lack of Ghostwriter among your townreads.

Cobblerfone · Post Post #56 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:44 pm

↑ CrashTextDummie wrote:Shiidaji:

You seem to be incredulous towards the idea of scum gambitting early, and yet you're voting me, which makes me wonder what you think asking for a massclaim in the first post of the game is.

Cobblerfone:
I notice a curious lack of Ghostwriter among your townreads.

I forgot. I was so focused on the interactions and reactions I forgot the claim.

Shiidaji · Post Post #57 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:54 pm

Oh. Didn't think about it like that, I suppose you're correct. I was referring to the scum in the more circumstantial manner that we were talking about, where scum gambits during a mass-claim.

Hmph. Crash is town, and I like his responses.

Unvote

Cobbler, I'm more interested in any scumreads you have, over your townreads.

Cobblerfone · Post Post #58 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:10 pm

I'm suspect of PeregrineVxLupus Vega and Meriansiel a little less so for the way he worded this neutrally:

Meransiel wrote:Not really seeing the point of a massclaim.

Vote: GhostWriter

Hmm... I just realized that he's posted since, and has not made any comment on the Miller claim. I'm not sure whether that makes him town, scum, or just forgetful but it's interesting.

I was going to wait until Peregrine answered, but since I've revealed this.

VOTE: Lupus Vega

Lupus Vega · Post Post #59 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:27 pm

Wait, sorry, I'm confused. Why are you voting me?

I'm trying to think if a massclaim would work. I can see the upside to the town knowing the power roles, but really, scum would know exactly who's lying, and the town wouldn't. The only conclusion I can see is that the scum knows

everything

- even more than they usually would, and town simply has a myriad or information to sort through, without being substantially better off. That said, CTD is reading town to me, because of his being aggressive and suggesting a strategy this early on.

I'm really not liking Jakalope. Firstly, he has a legit reason to vote Meran (especially as we were still pretty much in RVS), but only FoS'd him. Secondly, he says to watch out for me and Meran without really stating why. And then he jumps on the bandwagon without saying anything but "Let's jump on the bandwagon!"

VOTE: Jakalope

Lupus Vega · Post Post #60 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:28 pm

Oh, and before I forget: My vote on Goomba was a random vote. I was aware that he wasn't actually claiming scum, and it was as good (or bad) a reason as any to RV.

Just to clear things up.

Lurconis · Post Post #61 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:29 pm

@CTD I disagree with you for the fact that certain town roles, doctor, watcher, tracker etc.. may feel the need to claim VT to ensure they are able to use their powers for the good of town. Your arguments seem to come from a pro town stance so

unvote

.

I'm unsure about the miller claim I have only played in one other game with a miller and 0 games where scum gambited claiming miller so don't feel like I have enough experience to weigh in.

At this point VOTE: Cobblerfone strongest scumread thus far weak as it is for somewhat derailing conversation on page 2 by staying on the names thing.

TheJakalope · Post Post #62 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:21 pm

↑ Lupus Vega wrote:Wait, sorry, I'm confused. Why are you voting me?

I'm trying to think if a massclaim would work. I can see the upside to the town knowing the power roles, but really, scum would know exactly who's lying, and the town wouldn't. The only conclusion I can see is that the scum knows
everything
- even more than they usually would, and town simply has a myriad or information to sort through, without being substantially better off. That said, CTD is reading town to me, because of his being aggressive and suggesting a strategy this early on.

I'm really not liking Jakalope. Firstly, he has a legit reason to vote Meran (especially as we were still pretty much in RVS), but only FoS'd him. Secondly, he says to watch out for me and Meran without really stating why. And then he jumps on the bandwagon without saying anything but "Let's jump on the bandwagon!"

VOTE: Jakalope

Had Meran said "LET'S KILL ALL THE PR'S ON THE FIRST DAY", I would've voted him as well.

I vote for 2 reasons.

1. Intent to lynch
2. Intent to pressure.

I didn't want to lynch Meran or put pressure on him, I merely wanted to note my suspicion.

redFF · Post Post #63 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:29 pm

↑ Lupus Vega wrote:Oh, and before I forget: My vote on Goomba was a random vote. I was aware that he wasn't actually claiming scum, and it was as good (or bad) a reason as any to RV.

Just to clear things up.

honestly this didn't really need clearing up. scummy post.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lupus vega

Lupus Vega · Post Post #64 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:40 pm

↑ TheJakalope wrote:
↑ Lupus Vega wrote:Wait, sorry, I'm confused. Why are you voting me?

I'm trying to think if a massclaim would work. I can see the upside to the town knowing the power roles, but really, scum would know exactly who's lying, and the town wouldn't. The only conclusion I can see is that the scum knows
everything
- even more than they usually would, and town simply has a myriad or information to sort through, without being substantially better off. That said, CTD is reading town to me, because of his being aggressive and suggesting a strategy this early on.

I'm really not liking Jakalope. Firstly, he has a legit reason to vote Meran (especially as we were still pretty much in RVS), but only FoS'd him. Secondly, he says to watch out for me and Meran without really stating why. And then he jumps on the bandwagon without saying anything but "Let's jump on the bandwagon!"

VOTE: Jakalope

Had Meran said "LET'S KILL ALL THE PR'S ON THE FIRST DAY", I would've voted him as well.

I vote for 2 reasons.

1. Intent to lynch
2. Intent to pressure.

I didn't want to lynch Meran or put pressure on him, I merely wanted to note my suspicion.

When did I say that?

Shiidaji · Post Post #65 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:46 pm

You didn't.

TheJakalope · Post Post #66 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:07 pm

CTD, by wanting to Massclaim Day 1, said that. That's why I'm voting him. That's why everyone should be voting him.

izakthegoomba · Post Post #67 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:21 pm

I still strongly disagree with your arguments, CTD, and I will take another look at them when I have time.

But your reaction seems very town to me, even though your reasoning is flawed. It's what I was hoping you'd do.

UNVOTE: CrashTextDummy

This guy's not our lynch. Not yet.

Meransiel · Post Post #68 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:33 pm

↑ CrashTextDummie wrote:I don't buy the miller claim.

I still think we should massclaim.

I don't like this. Not the massclaim, but the not believing a miller cause he feels like it.

Vote: CTD

↑ Shiidaji wrote:I Mass nameclaim would be pretty interesting though.

No. Mod said alignment is random, but roles are NOT. I for one know I'd do a huge service to the scumteam if I nameclaim.

↑ Shiidaji wrote:Your responses seem town-ish to me though.

No. He is arguing game theory. That's perfectly null, cause both scum and town word it the same.

Meransiel · Post Post #69 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:35 pm

↑ Cobblerfone wrote:Hmm... I just realized that he's posted since, and has not made any comment on the Miller claim. I'm not sure whether that makes him town, scum, or just forgetful but it's interesting.

There's nothing worth saying about a miller claim. I believe him until proven wrong.

GhostWriter · Post Post #70 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:54 pm

In my honest opinion, people on this site take miller claims entirely wrong. All of you. It's always to one extreme or the other. I am well aware of miller claiming being a scum gambit. I cannot remember it ever being done in any game I've played in, but I am aware of the tactic and see its merits. But that works when the person claiming expects to instantly look clear in the eyes of the majority of the town. But I don't claim for any of you. I claim for the cop. I'm a wasted investigation. The rest of you? It's null for you. Judge how I play, like you normally would. If I'm scummy, treat me as such. If I'm townie, treat me as such. Do not insta-clear me for claiming but do not insta-condemn me for it either.

That said, VOTE: David Xanatos

izakthegoomba · Post Post #71 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:59 pm

...

...

...

Actually, he's right.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #72 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:01 pm

How do you prove a miller claim wrong? By investigating him innocent?

D1 miller claims should always be scrutinized. Statistically, a miller claim is far more likely to come from scum since the "power" they are claiming, coming up guilty upon investigation, is present in the majority of scum roles whereas millers only appear in a fraction of games. Sitewide meta on how to handle miller claims fluctuates over time. Judging by this game, where no one is batting an eye at someone going "hey, I come up guilty when investigated, problem?", a lot more scum are going to claim miller in the near future across all games.

izakthegoomba · Post Post #73 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:08 pm

But even supposing you're right and the reaction to miller claims does fluctuate, you can't judge future site-meta from a single game.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #74 (ISO) » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:10 pm

GhostWriter:

No. Claiming miller is not null. Claiming miller is admitting to a role characteristic that the vast majority of scum roles possesses. Claiming miller also doesn't just have merits as a scum gambit if it instantly makes you look town, the entire point of claiming miller as scum is to sidestep and invalidate the cop role.

I don't think claiming miller on D1 is even optimal pro-town play, but this is up to debate.

izak:
I am not doing that. I am making a statement on current site-meta.