Newbie 1764: Wind Game Over

[Accountant]

if you give them semi-good reason, and scum have easier to fake some reason to call someone scum on slip, town are more reluctant to call someone scum, no town want push ML wagon, while scum know exactly they are pushing ML wagon and they are more confident in doing so

This looks okay on paper, but in practice that's not what happens. Since role assignments are random, townies are not a homogenized group - there will inevitably be aggressive or bullheaded people selected as townies by the luck of the draw. These aggressive or bullheaded people are likely to then push wagons fearlessly on people, without caring whether or not it's a mislynch. Or perhaps it's not either of those traits, it's stubbornness; the town member isn't afraid to push wagons without fear of mislynch because they're absolutely sure that the target is mafia.

Or perhaps scum are very shy and do not dare to do something bold like lead a lynch on someone who will flip town. Or they want to blend in and don't want the scrutiny that the leader of a wagon on town gets.

As you can see, there are lots of different playstyles, so it's extremely shaky to call someone town or scum based solely on something like "whether or not they pushes a wagon". What we can do instead is look at the wagons themselves and see if they are supported by sound reasoning.

[Accountant]

@Van: Do you agree with my post 45? Why or why not?

[Mewtaph]

It's getting late for me, I'll get to you folks at a later time. My timezone is around Accountant's I believe, so that'll be interesting.

[Ramcius]

if you give them semi-good reason, and scum have easier to fake some reason to call someone scum on slip, town are more reluctant to call someone scum, no town want push ML wagon, while scum know exactly they are pushing ML wagon and they are more confident in doing so

This looks okay on paper, but in practice that's not what happens. Since role assignments are random, townies are not a homogenized group - there will inevitably be aggressive or bullheaded people selected as townies by the luck of the draw. These aggressive or bullheaded people are likely to then push wagons fearlessly on people, without caring whether or not it's a mislynch. Or perhaps it's not either of those traits, it's stubbornness; the town member isn't afraid to push wagons without fear of mislynch because they're absolutely sure that the target is mafia.

Or perhaps scum are very shy and do not dare to do something bold like lead a lynch on someone who will flip town. Or they want to blend in and don't want the scrutiny that the leader of a wagon on town gets.

As you can see, there are lots of different playstyles, so it's extremely shaky to call someone town or scum based solely on something like "whether or not they pushes a wagon". What we can do instead is look at the wagons themselves and see if they are supported by sound reasoning.

i'm not saying only scum starts these wagons, i'm against these wagons in general, cause they never are good for town, scum or town pushed, and if town start it, scum second it anyway, and in end they achieve their ML

[Accountant]

If you distrust all wagons on principle, what is your suggested method of lynching scum?

[Ramcius]

right now i felt like you setting me up for future lynch, we talk sheep wagons, not all wagons, anyway, take it as a little heads up from me for when we get sheep wagon, so you guys won't be shocked, when i start questioning that wagon

[Accountant]

Oh, this is my error. I mixed you up with Van, who apparently distrusts all wagons.

Well, that's not an unreasonable stance. Being wary of sheep wagons is only natural. But why do you completely discount the possibility that sheep wagons may be on scum? Consider: perhaps a confident and skilled townie finds who they think is scum, town sheeps them, and then the target is actually scum. That doesb't sound that unlikely.

It's also interesting that you think I'm setting you up. Firstly, what makes you think that? Secondly, if you really think that, why haven't you voted me?

[Ramcius]

Oh, this is my error. I mixed you up with Van, who apparently distrusts all wagons.

Well, that's not an unreasonable stance. Being wary of sheep wagons is only natural. But why do you completely discount the possibility that sheep wagons may be on scum? Consider: perhaps a confident and skilled townie finds who they think is scum, town sheeps them, and then the target is actually scum. That doesb't sound that unlikely.

It's also interesting that you think I'm setting you up. Firstly, what makes you think that? Secondly, if you really think that, why haven't you voted me?

I don't discount, if someone will be skilled enough to make good case, then we can't call it sheep wagon, but still i will put under scrutiny person who came with that case first

I said it's feeling, you told i don't believe in only weapon town have - lynching, isn't that looking anti-town? So, why shouldn't scumread someone, who try portray my behavior as anti-town? And i don't trow my votes right and left just like that on slight scumreads

[Van_Veacesalv_Dulca]

I agree with Post 45. As I said, I don't think wagons are scummy, but that wagoning is, particularly without reasons. You stated pressure, which is fair, but not enough to sway my opinion on the matter.

owo

[Ramcius]

btw, anyone could tell me which roles from matrix6 we got in this game? Cause i can't find or it's secret?

[Charloux]

Use your brain a bit. If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?
And town shouldn't bring up the subject, since only scum benefit from it.

[Ramcius]

Use your brain a bit. If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?
And town shouldn't bring up the subject, since only scum benefit from it.

i don't ask to claim, i ask what roles are in play, and i don't like your answer, looks like forced attempt to grab towncred

[Gamma Emerald]

We can't tell which specific roles are in play until some people claim. Until then, don't worry about it.

[Charloux]

Use your brain a bit. If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?
And town shouldn't bring up the subject, since only scum benefit from it.

i don't ask to claim, i ask what roles are in play, and i don't like your answer, looks like forced attempt to grab towncred

I don't like your though process. You think we should treat you as confirmed town and everybody who speaks to you is scum. I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot. I don't see town mentality there.
VOTE: Ramcius

Sorry if you though i was being rude in the last post.

[Ramcius]

Use your brain a bit. If we outed the roles now who do you think would be killed during the night?
And town shouldn't bring up the subject, since only scum benefit from it.

i don't ask to claim, i ask what roles are in play, and i don't like your answer, looks like forced attempt to grab towncred

I don't like your though process. You think we should treat you as confirmed town and everybody who speaks to you is scum. I'll go on a limb here and say you are using an alter-ego in this game, or you are just bad with pressure hence taking an aggressive approach to fend off any potential attacks on your slot. I don't see town mentality there.
VOTE: Ramcius

Sorry if you though i was being rude in the last post.

i don't ask you to like me, or how i play, only thing i expect from people is either cooperate to find scum, or don't stand in my way, and if i see something off, i say it

thx, Gamma

[Accountant]

Ramcius is probably town. 61 has the type of paranoia I see from newbtown a lot, especially newbtown who's terrified of being schmoozled by scum(see his speech about how we should be wary of scum trying to lead town into mislynches).

@Van: So, to be clear, you think that forming lynches on players is okay, but you think mindlessly hopping onto wagons is bad, right?

[Gamma Emerald]

I can see that.
I'll try to form a solid assessment on the content we have so far soon.

[Accountant]

@Ramcius: You say Charloux is trying to get towncred, and this is scummy. Why is it scummy?

[nydushermain]

I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.

I also didn't like accountant's post #37.

@Van: Why are wagons scummy? Since Town cannot kill at night, we can only hunt down and kill mafia members by wagoning and lynching them. Furthermore, one of the best ways to hunt mafia is to exert pressure on them. In a calm environment, mafia can blend in easily, but in an environment where there are lots of threats and pressure, mafia are more likely to slip up and make a mistake. In this case, wagons are a useful tool to generate this pressure.

I think wagons are way more useful than they are harmful. So how can they be scummy?

The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night,

we

..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys

we

are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since

I

am town, when I say town, I say

we

and when I say mafia, I say

they

" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."


VOTE: Accountant

[Accountant]

I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.

You are correct that I'm asking question without following them up with strong reads. Let me clearly explain why.

Firstly, a lot of these questions are asked not because I want to know the answer, but because I wish to provoke thought about the way the game works in the minds of the people I'm asking the question to. For example, if I ask a question like "given that wagons create pressure and pressure helps to catch scum, don't you think that wagons are a good thing?", that is an attempt to make someone think. It's not because I want to actually know the answer.

Secondly, a lot of these questions are theory related. Because the theory of mafia is consistent across all games, everything to do with discussion of theory is completely null in my mind. A player with a question about theory(or a wrong conception of mafia theory) is just as likely to be town as scum. Therefore it's impossible to read a player based on theory discussions. Given that the past few pages have been mostly me talking about theory so that everyone's on the same page when we start scumhunting, it's definitely impossible for me to come up with strong reads based on that.

Thirdly, a lot of what I am doing right now is trying to get into people's mindset. Ramcius is paranoid. Gamma is enthusiastic. Mewtaph is trying to game-solve. Some of these things are indicative of certain alignments. Some are not, but they help me understand where a player is coming from so it's easier to determine their alignment in the following posts. Scumhunting is not about blindly applying a set of scum tells to a game. Rather, it's about truly understanding players, taking their posts in the context of that understanding and then determining if that context and that kind of posts stems from the mindset of someone who is pushing a scum agenda or a townie who is trying to gamesolve. For this reason, nothing pops up to me as immediately strongly indicative of town or scum(with the exception of Ramcius' post, which I have already pointed out), it's natural for me to try to understand players on a deeper level so that I can more easily determine their alignment when we progress into the later stages of the game. You can think of my questions, therefore, as "setups" to scumhunting.

There are two points in your posts that I wish to refute. Firstly, you claim that I would find many things odd. I'm not sure where you got this impression. This is a very standard start to a newbie game, and nothing has popped out to me as particularly odd or out of place, with the exception of Gamma's over-enthusiasm. Secondly, you claim that I do not have a decent set of reads. Again, I am not sure where you got this impression. I do have quite a few reads - specifically I read Gamma as slightly scummy, Ramcius as town, and Charloux and Mewtaph as moderately townie. Granted, these are not complete or particularly strong, but it's unreasonable to expect very strong reads on page 3.

[Accountant]

The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night, we..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys we are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since I am town, when I say town, I say we and when I say mafia, I say they" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."

Why do you attribute this to a mental inconsistency as opposed to it simply being the way I like to post? There was another user on this site, iraonvp, who had the habit of always referring to certain alignments as "x-aligned". For example, he would never say things like "So-and-so is scum", he would say things like "So-and-so is scum-aligned". You could easily use your argument to say that this is indicative of iraonvp having a scummy mindset - but this is simply his posting style, so it's definitely not indicative of alignment.

I think that it's not a good idea to try to generalize about the mindset that people have about the way they use English, and especially not to draw conclusions about their alignment based on it. Sure, if I have a habit of always saying "they" when I am town and only say "mafia" when I am scum, then it's fine to scumread me for this. But in this case it's just the way I like to speak.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think ny is SRing Accountant for IC posting tbh

[nydushermain]

I'll post more later when I have a bit more time but something that sticks out the most to me is how passive accountant is being. Accountant has the highest activity it seems and is asking a lot of questions but none of the questions don't really seem to me like someone scum hunting. It gives off a "I'll just ask these questions for the sake of asking them" vibe. I feel like a town that found so many odd things (or at least I imagine accountant's thought process is "oh that seems odd"), they would've at least made a decent set of reads. It's like an offhand attempt to bury people. Really odd to me.

You are correct that I'm asking question without following them up with strong reads. Let me clearly explain why.

Firstly, a lot of these questions are asked not because I want to know the answer, but because I wish to provoke thought about the way the game works in the minds of the people I'm asking the question to. For example, if I ask a question like "given that wagons create pressure and pressure helps to catch scum, don't you think that wagons are a good thing?", that is an attempt to make someone think. It's not because I want to actually know the answer.

Secondly, a lot of these questions are theory related. Because the theory of mafia is consistent across all games, everything to do with discussion of theory is completely null in my mind. A player with a question about theory(or a wrong conception of mafia theory) is just as likely to be town as scum. Therefore it's impossible to read a player based on theory discussions. Given that the past few pages have been mostly me talking about theory so that everyone's on the same page when we start scumhunting, it's definitely impossible for me to come up with strong reads based on that.

Thirdly, a lot of what I am doing right now is trying to get into people's mindset. Ramcius is paranoid. Gamma is enthusiastic. Mewtaph is trying to game-solve. Some of these things are indicative of certain alignments. Some are not, but they help me understand where a player is coming from so it's easier to determine their alignment in the following posts. Scumhunting is not about blindly applying a set of scum tells to a game. Rather, it's about truly understanding players, taking their posts in the context of that understanding and then determining if that context and that kind of posts stems from the mindset of someone who is pushing a scum agenda or a townie who is trying to gamesolve. For this reason, nothing pops up to me as immediately strongly indicative of town or scum(with the exception of Ramcius' post, which I have already pointed out), it's natural for me to try to understand players on a deeper level so that I can more easily determine their alignment when we progress into the later stages of the game. You can think of my questions, therefore, as "setups" to scumhunting.

There are two points in your posts that I wish to refute. Firstly, you claim that I would find many things odd. I'm not sure where you got this impression. This is a very standard start to a newbie game, and nothing has popped out to me as particularly odd or out of place, with the exception of Gamma's over-enthusiasm. Secondly, you claim that I do not have a decent set of reads. Again, I am not sure where you got this impression. I do have quite a few reads - specifically I read Gamma as slightly scummy, Ramcius as town, and Charloux and Mewtaph as moderately townie. Granted, these are not complete or particularly strong, but it's unreasonable to expect very strong reads on page 3.

I am playing under the assumption that if you're asking a lot of questions, it's because you're curious as to why people are doing such things. Maybe the word "odd" was the wrong word. Mostly, I felt weird that you were withholding the information you were gaining from asking people said questions and their responses. Maybe I skimmed over it a little too hard because I was tunneled on a read I had on one of your other posts.

The way acc says "Since town cannot kill at night, we..." makes it seems like acc is trying to blend into town by saying "hey guys we are town." Normally, I read this as not alignment indicative but it's some sort of mental inconsistency that bothers me. When you're in this type of mindset when you're posting, I feel like you stick with it and say "okay, since I am town, when I say town, I say we and when I say mafia, I say they" but acc says mafia four times consecutively (as in without referring to another person again), and twice acc could've said "they" as a replacement for "mafia."

Why do you attribute this to a mental inconsistency as opposed to it simply being the way I like to post? There was another user on this site, iraonvp, who had the habit of always referring to certain alignments as "x-aligned". For example, he would never say things like "So-and-so is scum", he would say things like "So-and-so is scum-aligned". You could easily use your argument to say that this is indicative of iraonvp having a scummy mindset - but this is simply his posting style, so it's definitely not indicative of alignment.

I think that it's not a good idea to try to generalize about the mindset that people have about the way they use English, and especially not to draw conclusions about their alignment based on it. Sure, if I have a habit of always saying "they" when I am town and only say "mafia" when I am scum, then it's fine to scumread me for this. But in this case it's just the way I like to speak.

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying because your analogy is wrong. I'm not saying you're scum for saying mafia, I'm saying that the way you're being inconsistent is scummy with your usage of perspective. You start off with the perspective of being town when you say "we" and then you drop the perspective when you could be saying "they" instead of "mafia" multiple times which I find weird. It's like you were trying to pretend to be town by saying "we" and then forgot to keep in that mindset when talking about mafia.

[nydushermain]

I think mewtaph is lightly townie too after a reread. I think that the way he addressed charloux sounded like he was potentially pushing scum on char, but wasn't really too accusatory and instead, felt more inquisitive.

@nydushermain: Say Player X came in for their first post with an accusation on one of the active players, Player Y. How would you go about trying to read this kind of post?

It would depend on the circumstance. I know I didn't really say this as a reason but to be honest, I really liked how what you posted sounded in my head. I read it in a sassy way and I liked it.

[Accountant]

I am playing under the assumption that if you're asking a lot of questions, it's because you're curious as to why people are doing such things. Maybe the word "odd" was the wrong word. Mostly, I felt weird that you were withholding the information you were gaining from asking people said questions and their responses. Maybe I skimmed over it a little too hard because I was tunneled on a read I had on one of your other posts.

While I'm flattered that you think I'm that good, there is no secret treasure trove of hidden information that I have obtained from a 3-page conversation about sheeping wagons that I am hiding from you.

There is no change in perspective. I refer to townies as "we" or "town". These words mean the same thing. Similarly I refer to mafia as "they" or "mafia". Once more, they mean the same thing. If I use one synonym over the other, it does not mean anything special. The choice is arbitrary.