BulletNLynchProof's 9p pre-designed setup

[BNL]

How big a problem is this, actually? I don't want to add a second ascetic/macho into the setup

[callforjudgement]

It's a potential problem but I'm not sure it's big enough for it to be worse than the problems that would be caused by potential fixes. (For example, the D1 Jailkeeper shot is likely the least useful of them, but removing it would nonetheless be a large enough nerf to town that we'd need to increase their power elsewhere to compensate.)

[BNL]

Here are some fixes I thought of:

Shift the ascetic to the Jailkeeper
Change Doctor enabler to Jailkeeper enabler
Inform the Mafia that there is a Jailkeeper
Change the Jailkeeper to N1 Roleblocker N2+ Jailkeeper, or just full Roleblocker

Are any of these good, or just not worth the effort?

[callforjudgement]

I like the Ascetic Town Roleblocker variant from a design point of view, actually. Unfortunately, it's probably a little scumsided (because town are hardly likely to stop two kills, it's pretty comparable to Matrix6 C, which had only a ~45% town win rate; counting the Enabler as scum power, both sides are a bit more powerful than in the Matrix6 version, but I'd expect the improvements to roughly balance). Perhaps town need a fourth power role (1-shot Role Cop could work).

That said, trying to make this work is probably a good idea; if the previous setup is balanced and the "fixed" version is 45% town win, that means about one tenth of town's 50% win chance is coming from the potential for brokenness. Making it come from some other source instead is likely an improvement. (Also, note that two of town's power roles, the Roleblocker and the Role Cop, are going to naturally look scummy when they claim, meaning that the setup is unlikely to be broken by massclaim despite the five power roles total.)

[BNL]

Actually I realised that both of town’s nerfs affect the Doctor, rather than the Jailkeeper.

Is it ok to move the ascetic to the Doctor? I don’t think it’s a big problem because it obfuscates results for the JK, but then again it’s one step closer to earning a mislynch.

Objectively I think that Roleblocker is the best fix for this, but I’m kinda attached to the JK for some reason.


Also correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve heard 2 Goon vs 1 RB 6 VT has been accepted as balance as RB is similar to JK?

[BNL]

Also how does Role Cop help town power?

[callforjudgement]

Role Cop gets a (soft, but still helpful) investigative result on a Doctor, and to a lesser extent on an Enabler. Neither of those roles are commonly given to scum.

It's pretty weak, but it has to be, because the setup is close to balanced already.

RB is pretty close to JK but slightly weaker (basically, because it has less scope to help town if it misaims, and can be used as a protective in a pinch). Additionally, scum has more ability to aim in this setup, and a Doctor is a very weak role unless it's protecting PRs or pushing the game from evens to odds (in both those situations, it's a very strong role, typically making it hard to balance).

[BNL]

Do you think shifting the ascetic to the Doctor makes the setup better or worse?

[callforjudgement]

Worse, due to the potential issues caused by a D1 claim.

[BNL]

But won’t that cause confusion by the JK possibly misunderstanding their result?

[callforjudgement]

That's always a risk in a block+protective setup, but it's something that the players are aware of (and JKs have two possible explanations for a missed kill anyway, so a third won't typically be too much trouble to deal with).

[Performer]

1 Mafia Goon
1 Informed Mafia Goon ("player is a Vanilla Townie.", with player selected at random from among the VTs)
1 Ascetic Town Jailkeeper
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Doctor Enabler
4 Vanilla Townies

Nvm the Novice part then - no problem. I think this setup is fine .

Because if scum already know X is a vt, they can just poe their nk list - if they hit enabler or doctor, the doctor or enabler will be essentially a vt at that point . Ascetic jk also balances it out for scum since doc can't protect the jk.

[Performer]

Hmm...just to make sure, the doctor would know there is a doctor enabler in your setup?

[callforjudgement]

Not until the Doctor Enabler died. At that point, the Enabler's flip would allow the Doctor to know their role had been disabled

[BNL]

1 Mafia Goon
1 Informed Mafia Goon ("player is a Vanilla Townie.", with player selected at random from among the VTs)
1 Ascetic Town Jailkeeper
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Doctor Enabler
4 Vanilla Townies

Ok then, I think I want to stick to this setup

[BNL]

Also I realised that doc protecting JK is a bigger problem than JK protecting Doc because the first leads to follow the JK while the second is just a one-time save

[implosion]

Changed title (back) to reflect this being 9 players.

[BNL]

Just a question: when the enabler dies, should the Doctor get a PM that their role no longer works?

[implosion]

Probably good as a courtesy, though not *strictly* necessary, since it is information they should know from the flip.

[BNL]

I remembered some game having a Mafia Backup Enabler, and apparently it was ruled that until it died the role still could be used.

[callforjudgement]

The way I've been writing Enabler PMs, the death of any Enabler for a role would shut it off, even if there are multiple Enablers (and thus making a Backup Enabler pointless if it backed up the enabler; the more sensible reading of the role is as a player who enables backups!). I don't know whether that's NRG consensus, but it seems like it would be a good thing for players to always be able to work out whether or not their role is enabled from the flips.

[BNL]

All that aside, can we approve this setup?

1 Mafia Goon
1 Informed Mafia Goon ("player is a Vanilla Townie.", with player selected at random from among the VTs)
1 Ascetic Town Jailkeeper
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Doctor Enabler
4 Vanilla Townies

Ok then, I think I want to stick to this setup

[callforjudgement]

I thought you'd approved it already in #64.

Just to avoid any ambiguity, though, I approve that setup.

[Performer]

All that aside, can we approve this setup?

1 Mafia Goon
1 Informed Mafia Goon ("player is a Vanilla Townie.", with player selected at random from among the VTs)
1 Ascetic Town Jailkeeper
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Doctor Enabler
4 Vanilla Townies

Ok then, I think I want to stick to this setup

I also approve!

[BNL]

@implosion we’ve settled on the setup