Page 3 of 3

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:20 pm
by Umlaut
Are my follower result PMs okay, by the way? I'm never really sure what level of specificity to give to results for that role. (I do understand that Gunsmith is an investigative action like Cop and the action type should be indistinguishable, I'll make that explicit once the setup is nailed down and I post revised role/result PMs)

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:56 pm
by Isis
In post 49, Something_Smart wrote:It would probably be better if there were another way to block a kill. Umlaut's 2-shot commuter isn't a terrible idea, or maybe just a 1-shot bulletproof. That way at least we can balance around the extra execution being likely instead of being uncertain.
I really don't like the kinds of things that happen if you add another PR to a setup like this. This is a setup with an investigative slot that is "basically sane cop" and I'm hesitant to have large numbers of PRs in addition to that slot in those setups because in the outcomes where they are specced correctly (which people will somehow some percentage of the time do even if it's a fruit vendor, a hirsute and a beloved princess alongside a scum fakeclaimed tracker) there can be a massive amount of protwn material at a relatively early point if that's stacked onto a couple of clears and the setup spec for the sane cop itself.

I'd be ok with the doctor's first two slots being jails or aliens though I guess

Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:57 pm
by Isis
Follower PM looks fine

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:36 am
by Umlaut
This seems a bit stalled out, are we approving this setup or making more changes?

Here are some updated role/result PMs. I still think my follower result PMs may be too fine-grained (I think they're only supposed to specify action
category
per https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ormal_Game) so I replaced those as well, tell me whether you prefer the old or new ones.

Spoiler: Role PMs
Town Jack-of-All-TradesWelcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a
Town Jack-of-All-Trades
, with the following abilities.
  • 1-Shot Cop:
    On one night of your choice, you may investigate a player to learn whether they are
    guilty
    (Mafia-aligned) or
    innocent
    (Town-aligned).
  • 1-Shot Gunsmith:
    On one night of your choice, you may investigate a player to learn whether they have a gun.
    (See the wiki for a list of which roles have guns.)

  • 1-Shot Follower:
    On one night of your choice, you may follow a player to learn what type of action, if any, they take during the night.
  • 1-Shot Vigilante:
    On one night of your choice, you may shoot and kill a player.
You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Town Combined Neighborizer Strongman-FinderWelcome to Mini Normal {NUMBER}! You are a
Town Combined Neighborizer Strongman-Finder
.

Each night you may target a player, with
both
of the following effects:
  • That player will be added to a private neighborhood with you. (All players you neighborize are added to the same neighborhood.)
  • You will be informed whether that player has the role of Strongman or not.
You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.

Spoiler: Result PMs
Jack-of-All-Trades / Gunsmith: PositiveYour investigation determined that {PLAYER} has a gun.

Strongman-Finder: NegativeYou learned that {PLAYER} is not a Strongman.

Strongman-Finder: No resultYou failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Gunsmith: NegativeYour investigation determined that {PLAYER} does not have a gun.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Gunsmith: No resultYou failed to investigate {PLAYER}.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Kill{PLAYER} carried out a killing action during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Roleblock{PLAYER} carried out a blocking action during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Kill+Roleblock{PLAYER} carried out a killing action and a blocking action during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Neighborize+Strongman-Find{PLAYER} carried out a miscellaneous action and a role investigation during the night.

Jack-of-All-Trades / Follower: Protect{PLAYER} carried out a protective action during the night.

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:53 am
by Isis
Since S_S's objection was about swing and not balance and I feel like it's bikeshedding to resolve it I'm gonna approve over the objection.

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:56 am
by Isis
reviewed the pms, the new ones are better. Will wait for S_S to look at PMs then this should be done

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:06 pm
by Something_Smart
They're fine, as long as you make the mafia wincon public.

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:19 pm
by Isis
I prefer you design wincons so that there's no possibility of draws, but I'm not feeling as whiny about it as usual

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 4:01 pm
by Umlaut
Hunh, I never had anyone ask before for me to list the wincons explicitly but I suppose it makes sense if the "control half the town" wincon is more typical. I can add the following subsection to the rules post, under Game Mechanics.
Win conditions
  • All Town players have the following win condition: “You win when the Town is the sole surviving faction.”
  • All Mafia players have the following win condition: “You win when the Mafia is the sole surviving faction, or when nothing can prevent this.”
  • If the game somehow ends with neither win condition met, it will be considered a draw.
(Normally I would prefer to score the last case as "both factions lose the game," but breaking the zero-sum nature of the game can lead to really weird endgame choices [e.g. why should vig actually take their shot on the last scum in 1:1 if they lose either way?] so it's probably best to allow the draw)

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 4:47 pm
by Isis
I tend to prefer to see a faction declared the winner.

I will probably take flak for causing the setup to leak if you use these wincons exactly, since I wouldn't have complained if there was no vig creating the remote possibility of draws.

You could just use the win condition you were using before and put something in your ruleset that resolves happily ever and incidentally resolves scorched earth if you like draws. This setup has a 4p happily ever after possibility anyway.

I tend to prefer to pick a faction to be the winner when everybody dies (I usually pick scum but town would be equally fine). It's zero sum.

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 5:24 am
by Umlaut
I can do the "control half the town" rule if you consider it essential, but since I don't normally use it that probably leaks setup information as well. Could you be more specific as to what I should be writing instead of the above? Those are the wincons I was using before, they're the same ones I had in the role PMs.

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:34 am
by Isis
If the game ends or reaches Happily Ever After with neither win condition met, it will be considered a draw.

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 6:35 am
by Isis
Would you be fine with that as a revision to your third bullet?

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:11 am
by Umlaut
Yes, that's fine. (I would consider Happily Ever After to be "ending" still but it doesn't really matter)

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 7:14 am
by Isis
Alright, everything is passed now

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:39 am
by Umlaut
This game has just ended, requesting this topic be unlocked