Mini 2065 - Access Point [Endgame]

[insomnia]

Nobody hammers NSG please, I need to have a conversation with RC. It will be later, like in about 5 hours or so.

[RuiRui]

So shoot me and vote roster to go on the mission after I flip.

I townread this but I don't agree with it

You might be an interesting shot though, if there isn't support for you being in the AP. NSG's reads are important too, I'll unvote for now

UNVOTE: NorthSideGal

[RuiRui]

I'm kind of impatient with not talking about reads even though I said not to do it earlier

[RuiRui]

VOTE: NSG
I'm feeling good about this vote. NSG looks town to me. I'm strongly considering killing Insomnia - his posts look a lot like fluff to me.

Good call, at least let me leave some reads? Quite the mishap to shoot a town that has no reads yet. No rush.

I don't mean to sound rude when I say this, but I don't think your reads are all too important
I think what's more important is how our perceptions on other players who are likely to go into the access point would be altered

I'm feeling that you're town and I'm starting to think this is not such a good idea though... mainly, what information do we gain from you flipping town that is relevant for our current line of thinking? I wouldn't be sold on Roster being town if you flipped town and so his alignment "doesn't matter" since he's not really contributing to getting players access pointed either, do you get me? And I don't think I'll ever feel good enough about him that I'd want him Ap'd over someone who I feel I can read better

[RuiRui]

I also have some other thoughts on how scum may be playing around the suicidal vigs that I'm not sure I want to share (though I kind of do)

I'll talk about it after NSG gives reads and people discuss the shot a little bit

[RCEnigma]

The thoughts I had on how vigs should be shooting are kind of null now knowing that all slots flip before a lylo AP.

[insomnia]

VOTE: NSG
I'm feeling good about this vote. NSG looks town to me. I'm strongly considering killing Insomnia - his posts look a lot like fluff to me.

Good call, at least let me leave some reads? Quite the mishap to shoot a town that has no reads yet. No rush.

I don't mean to sound rude when I say this, but I don't think your reads are all too important
I think what's more important is how our perceptions on other players who are likely to go into the access point would be altered

I'm feeling that you're town and I'm starting to think this is not such a good idea though... mainly, what information do we gain from you flipping town that is relevant for our current line of thinking? I wouldn't be sold on Roster being town if you flipped town and so his alignment "doesn't matter" since he's not really contributing to getting players access pointed either, do you get me? And I don't think I'll ever feel good enough about him that I'd want him Ap'd over someone who I feel I can read better

I don’t mean to sound rude, but that’s dumb. My reads do matter. Right now you’re voting for someone that is being sent on a mission by the strongest scum player in this lobby. You’re giving your trust to a player that is always playing like this regardless of the setup or alignment. Tries to be the town leader and dictate what town should do, looking like he’s helping with our progress to reaching our wincon, when in reality, he’s just progressing with his. Did you even read the reason why he wants NSG sent? “She deserves to play this game since she doesn’t have time to play any games”. RC is known for AtE, especially his replacements in all games, which are also AtE.

Now, RC, can you tell me why you don’t want to go in the AP yourself? If you’re saying you’ll die regardless, why don’t you want to be sent in the AP mission? That saves you from a nk and you should be good in LyLo because you claim you’re really good at this game. Why do you trust NSG so much?

If we’re sending NSG and RC is alive tomorrow, he has to get vigged. Period. Don’t automatically assume RC’s town and him not being dead is an opportunity for you to win the game and send him on an AP mission. Take the shot, like he said he wants to.

You sending NSG just because she doesn’t play enough games lately is wrong to us, the other players. It’s a shitty reason to risk this game for that. I don’t believe you’d send her on a mission just for that.

[insomnia]

When a potential scum is leading the town and the vig decides to shoot someone that gave no information, it automatically puts town at a disadvantage.

1) They have wasted their shot on a town and they will be pressured, making them holstering their second shot, because of that psychological pressure.

2) That town didn’t give any sort of information that comes from TOWN. That alone should tell you a lot. You don’t know RC’s alignment, you’re liking his reads regardless of his role. Why wouldn’t my reads be important if I’m town? It proves that I didn’t push my scum buddies to a mission, you have absolute certainty that my reads are pure, even if they are wrong.


So in reality, if a vig will shoot me today, their risk-reward analysis is honestly fucked up and the same applies for whoever is advocating a shot on me at the moment. Just wait. Don’t fire and then regret, making you doubt every single read.

[RuiRui]

I think that trying to direct where the vigs shoot when you're not a vig is the worst thing you can do, but I understand your frustration. I'm just a little unsure of you now, still leaning town but...

Try to think of this on the other side: Let's think of both RC and NSG as town for now; I think scum are very hesitant to push against a town NSG being put into access point against these strong players, and are instead looking to setup to be in the access point days 2 and 3. Right now, in this scenario where they're both town, and the gamestate is largely being controlled by the town, not giving scum much room to work with, scum have to try to gain a grip on the gamestate, something that lets them influence opinions, and they will be looking towards the shot.

Interestingly, I think a setup like this favors scum bussing, trying to get your partner shot to make yourself look better... or to make other people look worse. A misfire on town isn't necessarily what scum would want in this gamestate, as they want to try to influence the gamestate as much as possible to try to shake town up. Of course, this is assuming a lot of people are town, like RC, NSG, and other people they're talking about.

As for shooting RC, if he's alive on day 2 and thinks that him dying and flipping town provides a higher chance for town to win than him going into the AP himself, then that is something to consider. I don't think I'm looking at a situation where both you and RC are scum and you're looking for credit. I do think, ultimately, the vigs should be wary about listening to outside advice on who to shoot, I'd like for them to give their thoughts on what the best kind of shot is (like, what criteria would be used to determine the shot) and it's ok to ask for opinions, etc.

What I'm most concerned with, in regards to your motivations here, is that you're both pushing for RC to die and sort of shading his reads, a double whammy where even if he flips town you won't trust his read on NSG. Why, then, should we be shooting him? That's what makes me nervous, because it looks like a scum perspective to the gamestate

[RuiRui]

I'm of the opinion that the vigilantes should hold off on shooting until at least day 2, I find it unlikely that the mafia will pick off a vigilante in the current game state because while they're confirmed town, they can't enter the access point (though I'd like if Goldenparadox and GuiltyLion could converse a little before night, just in case, maybe not about reads but about a more general "what kind of a shot should we take on day 2")

[RuiRui]

The big point here is: Vigging RC is useless if you're not willing to respect his read on NSG after the fact should he flip town

[insomnia]

He has asked himself to be shot on day 2.

I’m not directing vig’s shot, RC has. I’m just restating what he said.

I’ve just pointed out why vigs should holster their shot this early in the game.

I’m not sure what you meant by it favors scum bussing. If anything, a scum advocating so hard for someone to go into the mission without any specific reason will make the both of them look suspicious. I can’t comprehend what you meant.

Objectively speaking, if NSG is sent on a mission and RC is somehow still alive by tomorrow, he is the best shot. Please argue with me why that is not the case, if you disagree.

I don’t see why scum wouldn’t want town to get shot. It increases their chances of being sent in a mission and they don’t have to be that afraid of vig shots anymore.

I didn’t say I wouldn’t trust his read if he flipped town, but I just am not fine with sending someone on a mission “Because they don’t have the time to play”. RC has admitted Nsg is a strong scum player, so him sending her on a mission based on that reasoning is shady and it raises suspicion on him, if anything.

[insomnia]

The vig shot on RC is if he flips scum, then there is a really high chance of NSG being scum with him.

If he somehow doesn’t die tonight, then we get reads from him because he is an active poster and we shoot him at the end of the day and send his other town read on the mission if he flips town. Why is it not a good plan?

[insomnia]

It is beneficial because :

1) you clear rc as town and not scum, so his read on nsg was with good intentions
2) if he’s scum, we get info that NSG was most likely scum and that leaves only one scum with us. Plus, vigs can shoot whoever they like afterwards, if that was your problem.

I also can’t understand you saying “We should trust vigs reads and they shouldn’t be redirected”. Why are their reads important and a confirmed townie flip (if we go back to our discussion on shooting me) reads aren’t? Your logic is faulty here. You can’t pick persons and choose to disregard their reads just because they don’t have an ability in the day time.

I don’t like you, you’re defending RC too much when he can defend himself as wel.

[insomnia]

I’d like some reads on Rui from anyone else other than RC.

[insomnia]

Are these posts still fluff, TGP? Still want me killed?

[RuiRui]

What I meant when I said this setup favors scum bussing is that scum can try to direct the shot onto their own partner so they look better and are put into the access point

Scum aren't afraid of vig shots (they shouldn't be) - Scums goal is probably to get 1 scum in out of 3 and have them look reasonable townie, if the scum that dies isn't someone that would have been put into the access point then it doesn't matter if they die. Of course, scum don't want their townie looking scum to die, but their scummy looking scum isn't very helpful on their own merits in this setup. We don't have to go out of our way to get rid of people who we're hesitant to believe are town, as we must trim the playerlist down much further, to 3 people.

To an extent, yes, I see merit in shooting RC on day 2 and having his confident townread sent into the mission - but it looked like you were undermining his read on NSG, as if to set up for later, which was what was worrying me

[insomnia]

What I'm most concerned with, in regards to your motivations here, is that you're both pushing for RC to die and sort of shading his reads, a double whammy where even if he flips town you won't trust his read on NSG

And besides, what’s your NSG point? I didn’t say I wouldn’t trust RC’s read on NSG if he does flip town. So you’re misreping me and trying to portray me as scum that wants to shoot RC at all cost because “he’s town”.

People that town read Rui should reconsider their read.

I’m never voting Rui to go on a mission.

[RuiRui]

I also can’t understand you saying “We should trust vigs reads and they shouldn’t be redirected”. Why are their reads important and a confirmed townie flip (if we go back to our discussion on shooting me) reads aren’t? Your logic is faulty here. You can’t pick persons and choose to disregard their reads just because they don’t have an ability in the day time.

I meant it more in the sense that the vigs need to choose someone to kill

The reasoning for killing RC would be to confirm his reads as coming from town, no? I didn't really get the same impression from you, that you would or could convince people to follow your reads. The vigs reads don't matter so much as how they decide to use the vig matters.

I may have been wrong, if you were shot your reads would matter, but again, I just don't trust Roster, and I'm not sure If I can trust you to correctly read Roster to such an extent that I'd make big game decisions over it - this isn't meant to be rude, this is just my thought process, I think you're likely to be town, you shouldn't be getting paranoid about me, I think there's just a miscommunication between what we're meaning to say

[RuiRui]

You sending NSG just because she doesn’t play enough games lately is wrong to us, the other players. It’s a shitty reason to risk this game for that. I don’t believe you’d send her on a mission just for that.

When I saw this I read it as if you were trying to undermine RC's read on NSG, even if he were to flip town

This doesn't mean that I thought you were scum for it

[RuiRui]

I'm strongly considering killing Insomnia - his posts look a lot like fluff to me.

Does my theory on what we should do with the shots make sense? i.e. not shooting necessarily scummy players, but information shots?

[insomnia]

I think your attempt at portraying me as scum failed miserably and now you’re back peddling. No miscommunication at all.

I made up my read on a scum candidate, now I can be shot!

[insomnia]

I'm strongly considering killing Insomnia - his posts look a lot like fluff to me.

Does my theory on what we should do with the shots make sense? i.e. not shooting necessarily scummy players, but information shots?

RC isn’t scummy in your eyes and his flip will give us a goldmine of information. Why are you against it / deem it worthless, when it’s the shot that provides the most information?

I’ll let you self-incriminate further, I have private lessons, cyaaaa

[RuiRui]

I think you're getting upset with me and not thinking this through logically, I don't really have a reason to make you look like scum if you're a shot candidate vs an AP candidate - I also think you're overestimating how much other players are willing to invest in your reads should you be shot - this isn't a slight at you, I'm just saying you haven't exuded a large, confident persona, and your choice read (roster) is a read that people are likely going to want to think twice on

I haven't been calling you scum at all, I noted that I actually think you're town a few times

[RuiRui]

As I mentioned, here are my thoughts:

To an extent, yes, I see merit in shooting RC on day 2 and having his confident townread sent into the mission - but it looked like you were undermining his read on NSG, as if to set up for later, which was what was worrying me

I'm not actually against it if it turns out to be the best play we can make, I was pointing out that if we don't trust his reads afterwards then it's not a good idea (I may have misunderstood what you were saying about his read on NSG?)

If we shoot RC on day 2, trust NSG to be town if he says so, and then follow through with his 2nd candidate, that sounds like a good town plan - shooting you, to me, does not seem like a good town plan, because I do not think we will gain as much information