Holiday Dance Party ---- Game Over

[RH9]

Titus am i right or wrong if i say u don't really think individually what GL or even dats is scummy. You are just poking around what is happening with game and think whats happening with those two smelly.

Like its not an individual read is what im saying.
Right or wrong

Mix of both.
I hate GL's opening.
I hate Datisi's push on HQ and Shiro.
I hate how their reads are carbon copies.
I hate how they don't seem to acknowledge the viable scum pool is really low due to marci interactions.

What is wrong with GL's opening? And GL and Datisi might share reads because they share a PT and consult each other before posting.

Nevermind. You answered the question already.

[RH9]

I actually understand you very well. My mother is a carbon copy of you Harley.

I’m not going to tell you again. you need to STOP!

You are actually harassing me me now and for no valid reason I can comprehend.

You can report Firebringer's posts.

[RH9]

speaking of scum have big incentive to partner with scum.
LLD said she wanted to. And bearing with the flame i will get for saying it.
I don't want her paired with Taly at all.

Wow, Fire’s reads are so bad.

Bad reads are NAI.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

VoteCount 1.17

Firebringer - Andante [0]
Taly - Ydrasse [0] -
Save the Dragons - Titus [3] - Firebringer, Datisi, Andante
Datisi - GuiltyLion [2] - Shiro, Save the Dragons
RH9 - Alyssa the Lamb [1] - GuiltyLion
Shiro - Harley Quinn [2] - Taly, Ydrasse
Galron - Something_Smart [1] - Harley Quinn

Not Voting [5]

- RH9, Galron, Something_Smart, Titus, Alyssa the Lamb

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to execute

.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2021-12-28 20:00:00)

[RH9]

STD, have you caught onto what I caught on.

[RH9]

Titus and Ydrasse should know this too.
(As should have Norwee, N_M and catboi if they were still around.)

[RH9]

I actually understand you very well. My mother is a carbon copy of you Harley.

I’m not going to tell you again. you need to STOP!

You are actually harassing me me now and for no valid reason I can comprehend.

You can report Firebringer's posts.

By the way, Firebringer, I don't find any of your posts fit into my definition of harassment. I am telling HQ that if she finds your posts are harassing her, she can report them.

[RH9]

speaking of scum have big incentive to partner with scum.
LLD said she wanted to. And bearing with the flame i will get for saying it.
I don't want her paired with Taly at all.

Wow, Fire’s reads are so bad.

Bad reads are NAI.

But then, you have said that it wasn't. Sorry for misinterpreting you.

[Harley Quinn]

Alright, I'm off for the next 24ish hours. I wish all of you the happiest of holidays!!!

You too and everyone.

[Harley Quinn]

Fire, is Galron good or bad?

Being hyperfocused like that in endgaming isn’t generally a townie thought. Saying LLD should endgame by itself: townie. Saying I want to pair with that player that - I right out of the gate - want to endgame - not so much.

I mean hey, if scum knows it's not towny to say that, why even say that? Could just be scummy town? idk, I haven't read much of Galron (or anyone else really for that matter) but if town wants to pair with another town to endgame with them, what's wrong with that? Obviously Galron TRed LLD, and if Galron wants to endgame, he should be putting in that endgame type of effort, if no effort, then ehhh. but I see nothing wrong with "I was X to endgame, and I want to pair with X" on its own

At that point, though, I wasn't really townreading LLD. I wanted to be in a PT so I cold solve her. Problem is I asked in a weird way that has been attempted to be explained to me is scummy, but I still don't understand because of what you just said.

actually, no, doesn't matter. Dragons is voting the not mafia so I wanna vote out dragons

Saying you want player X to endgame and then wanting pair with them=I want to endgame.

But if I'm town, and I want a strong player to endgame, why wouldn't I choose myself to try to endgame with them?

Okay, now I’m really confused. Why would you say you wanted her to endgame if you weren’t really tr her?

[Harley Quinn]

and what's wrong with wanting to endgame??

Why would you care that much about that as town? Maybe it is nia but it’s a thought that mattered way more to me when I was scum but it also depends on who Marci’s buddies are too. I knew I’d have to be the one to carry since my buddies were being really scummy.

The thing is, you want to ensure that the endgame pair is T/T. I had it in my head that if I didn't think LLD was Town, I would leave. I couldn't trust anyone else, other than Taly who I think was already paired but maybe not, to be in a T/T (assuming LLD town) pairing.

But you generally don’t say you want a player to endgame unless you already have a strong tr on them. I don’t say I want someone to endgame and then solve. I only say that if my solve on them reads strong town.

[Harley Quinn]

I actually understand you very well. My mother is a carbon copy of you Harley.

I’m not going to tell you again. you need to STOP!

You are actually harassing me me now and for no valid reason I can comprehend.

You can report Firebringer's posts.

Don’t know if anyone would listen but I definitely do feel they’re personal. And that isn’t okay. If he keeps it up, I just might because I don’t sign up for this.

[Harley Quinn]

speaking of scum have big incentive to partner with scum.
LLD said she wanted to. And bearing with the flame i will get for saying it.
I don't want her paired with Taly at all.

Wow, Fire’s reads are so bad.

Bad reads are NAI.

I never said they were AI.

[Firebringer]

@RH9 Yeah I get u weren't saying I was, HQ can report any of my posts. This isn't the first or last time HQ will accuse me of harassment. I frankly think she throws that out reflexively when she gets frustrated and it doesn't mean much but still think if she really believes it she should be reporting me instead of making the accusation in game because how do i respond? I either stop talking to her, which i was only responding to what she was addressing to me. So fine by me, or I argue with her on whether im harassing her which just feeds into toxicity. Its not addressing issue.

Spoiler: Long wall omg why did i type all this

This whole thing about me being mean is just...like what mean thing did I say? That she reminded me of someone I know? That I think she is bad faith asking questions? Well because it really looks like it. When people point holes in ur arguments you circle around back to same arguments over and over, and then ask for peoples opinions/perspective and immediately dismiss or turn it into argument instead of what I see as seeming to try to understand. I am sorry I don't care about this whole "has trouble seeing other peoples points of view" to me that is not an excuse. Mafia is all about trying to understand someone and get in their head. When you tell me both 1) trust my reads and positions. they are really good. and 2) I have trouble understanding other peoples world views

It tells me your reads and positions have an obvious gap because those two don't mix. Now maybe HQ has ways of working around not being able to understand peoples positions. Maybe she relies on how people position themselves in relation to herself (which I think is probably her main source for understanding reads) and she probably uses past experience to see between games to see how consistent and inconsistent those positions are to see whether it passes a sniff test.

But this to me still seems weaksauce level. You need a deep connection with that person ur judging for them to get accurate reads if ur going to read people with this method. By deep connection u need like dozens of games experience, good raport, and u know each other well enough to see the patterns of behavior because if someone only has 1-2 games they might not have the same level impression on u as u left on them. I think HQ overestimates the impression others have on her, I see this frequently when she spouts things like "no you def would have x read on me" when the two have played maybe a couple of games together. Like I sometimes play with people for half a dozen games and they still will give me "idk anything on this dude and i never know how to read him" and im like "yeah i get that. we don't have a connection and i haven't built on there" but HQ kind of assumes the connection exists which to me again says u don't understand other persons head.

If you want a great read on a player you need both the surface level details of behavior change and the mindset and HQ doesn't have that imo. She might have it down for a few players just enough to get a few good reads but nothing substantive to actually understand mind just how they relate to herself. Like its egoist playstyle. She can tell you X is town and be right, but she won't actually understand that persons mind on why she is right, all her assumptions are wrong she just got to right conclusion.

And I say this all not to insult HQ or call her a bad player. I am a much worse player. I just have one or two good posts maybe in a year. My point is explaining why I won't trust her reads or positions because they aren't communicated in a way in which I go "yeah this makes sense and I think is raising a valid point" they more or less go "X is doing this thing and it has this connection to me. And they wouldn't do X in relation to me" which is impossible for me to know if true unless I know of all the history, go into both peoples minds and do real long detective work to find these statements are true or not. And if I am going to do all that, why wouldn't i just go into the persons mind in first place. I don't need to add 10+ hours of work to find out other game history and lore to get a persons alignment. I should be able to figure it out here.

This post was much longer than it needed to be and it doesn't include jokes. If you read all this I question why.

[Harley Quinn]

STD, have you caught onto what I caught on.

Titus and Ydrasse should know this too.
(As should have Norwee, N_M and catboi if they were still around.)

Are you going to keep us in suspense?

[Harley Quinn]

@RH9 Yeah I get u weren't saying I was, HQ can report any of my posts. This isn't the first or last time HQ will accuse me of harassment. I frankly think she throws that out reflexively when she gets frustrated and it doesn't mean much but still think if she really believes it she should be reporting me instead of making the accusation in game because how do i respond? I either stop talking to her, which i was only responding to what she was addressing to me. So fine by me, or I argue with her on whether im harassing her which just feeds into toxicity. Its not addressing issue.

Spoiler: Long wall omg why did i type all this

This whole thing about me being mean is just...like what mean thing did I say? That she reminded me of someone I know? That I think she is bad faith asking questions? Well because it really looks like it. When people point holes in ur arguments you circle around back to same arguments over and over, and then ask for peoples opinions/perspective and immediately dismiss or turn it into argument instead of what I see as seeming to try to understand. I am sorry I don't care about this whole "has trouble seeing other peoples points of view" to me that is not an excuse. Mafia is all about trying to understand someone and get in their head. When you tell me both 1) trust my reads and positions. they are really good. and 2) I have trouble understanding other peoples world views

It tells me your reads and positions have an obvious gap because those two don't mix. Now maybe HQ has ways of working around not being able to understand peoples positions. Maybe she relies on how people position themselves in relation to herself (which I think is probably her main source for understanding reads) and she probably uses past experience to see between games to see how consistent and inconsistent those positions are to see whether it passes a sniff test.

But this to me still seems weaksauce level. You need a deep connection with that person ur judging for them to get accurate reads if ur going to read people with this method. By deep connection u need like dozens of games experience, good raport, and u know each other well enough to see the patterns of behavior because if someone only has 1-2 games they might not have the same level impression on u as u left on them. I think HQ overestimates the impression others have on her, I see this frequently when she spouts things like "no you def would have x read on me" when the two have played maybe a couple of games together. Like I sometimes play with people for half a dozen games and they still will give me "idk anything on this dude and i never know how to read him" and im like "yeah i get that. we don't have a connection and i haven't built on there" but HQ kind of assumes the connection exists which to me again says u don't understand other persons head.

If you want a great read on a player you need both the surface level details of behavior change and the mindset and HQ doesn't have that imo. She might have it down for a few players just enough to get a few good reads but nothing substantive to actually understand mind just how they relate to herself. Like its egoist playstyle. She can tell you X is town and be right, but she won't actually understand that persons mind on why she is right, all her assumptions are wrong she just got to right conclusion.

And I say this all not to insult HQ or call her a bad player. I am a much worse player. I just have one or two good posts maybe in a year. My point is explaining why I won't trust her reads or positions because they aren't communicated in a way in which I go "yeah this makes sense and I think is raising a valid point" they more or less go "X is doing this thing and it has this connection to me. And they wouldn't do X in relation to me" which is impossible for me to know if true unless I know of all the history, go into both peoples minds and do real long detective work to find these statements are true or not. And if I am going to do all that, why wouldn't i just go into the persons mind in first place. I don't need to add 10+ hours of work to find out other game history and lore to get a persons alignment. I should be able to figure it out here.

This post was much longer than it needed to be and it doesn't include jokes. If you read all this I question why.

What does telling me to be quiet, comparing me to people who I don’t even know have anything to do with what you just posted? What I found the most offensive is you acting like you even know a goddamned thing about me personally and you have some kind of right to sit in judgment of me. No you don’t. And Titus got it, you didn’t, so up to you if you want to understand or not. I don’t need to justify myself to you.

What is actually true in what you posted, is it’s not always easy to communicate to others what I see in a way that will make sense to them but it’s definitely not from a lack of trying. That’s for damn sure.

[Galron]

first game town lost and we have no IC. Congrats on win Nancy
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=78670

So skimming this game and ND's ISO, there's an entirely different vibe from her than in this game. She is measured in tone, she deals in facts, and there is litte AtE from her. RC correctly called her out as scum pre-pairing, and she gave him a townread, in fact an obvtown read. Earlier than that she was getting scum read by Firebringrer and Ankamius, and while she did show some emotion from that, it wasn't as near as prolific as it has been this game. ND was Danniflor's partner and had him pocketed. And there was a point where she apparently threatened to rep out because she didn't want to go off on FB and get banned I guess, but she decided against the rep out. But the clarifaction on the rep out thing happened post-game. Taly (town) and S_S (town) were also in that game. Merchant's Daughter for those who care. ND top posted that game with 1100 posts, nearly doubling 2d place.

Doesn't appear that the scum PT was released, so I couldn't go through that. I looked through S_S's and Doubting Thomas's PT, and while it is just 2 pages, which is similar to mine and S_S's PT, S_S was much more into sharing his thoughts than he has been in his and my PT, which I find interesting and worth thinking about. Link here.

I looked through Firebringer and Vedith's PT, which is one page, and there isn't much in there from FB other than he wanted ND killed. Link here.

In that game Ankamius even links to another ND scum game where he correctly read her as scum (link here where the confrontation started), and while she does the scum read him back thing, it's not near as strong and emotional as her omguses have been in this game. Titus was scum with her in that game. And shiro was there too, but was town, and it wasn't a dance game. I didn't read all 73 pages of the scum PT, but I did see where Titus encouraged ND to express emotion (this post). But that was pre-Titus rebirth I believe, so I don't know how valid that is for this game. And, again, ND does show some emotion, but not near what HQ is doing in the instant game. That game was Heroes Wanted. ND had nearly 1400 posts that game, 2d most.

My takeaways:

1. HQ more likely town this game because of the raw emotional posting and prolific self-metaing (something else that was somewhat lacking in those other two games);

2. I need to reassess my TR on S_S because something is different even if it appears the WIM is high as it was in Merchant's Daughter.;

3. I need to reassess Firebringer because apparently there's a party going on in his PT with Andante, and that wasn't there in Merchant's, but could be he didn't click with Doubting Thomas?; and

4. I should ISO Titus in Heroes Wanted, both the game thread and the scum PT.

[Firebringer]

That game is 2 years old wow.

[Firebringer]

lol this post made me laugh and its two years old
man i was even more sassy back then

Spoiler: The memories

Subject: Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

No I am just going for low hanging fruit like a moron pinkball.
I did respond to ur bad townread on Nancy though.

Are you ever going to explain why you’re scumreading me here. Pretend I’m 5, maybe that will get us somewhere.

Nancy I am a master at prediction, so this is what is going to happen.

I am going to tell you that I did have reasons and I pointed them out.
You are going to say those aren't reasons and for me to explain them or will say that I didn't come up with reasons for scumreading you.
Then I will repeat that I did.
Then you will say the same thing as you did before.

Then we shall repeat this dance all into the night while everyone watches wondering how crazy I am for participating.
Would you like to start?

[Galron]

Okay, now I’m really confused. Why would you say you wanted her to endgame if you weren’t really tr her?

Because if she was town, I definitely did want her to endgame because she's a super strong player, but only with someone I knew was a townie. At that point, I wanted either LLD or Alyssa to endgame, with a town partner of course, and that's why I proposed to both of them. But if I was in a PT with them and didn't think that they were town, I would leave and make sure they didn't endgame. I wanted that control/option/opportunity.

But you generally don’t say you want a player to endgame unless you already have a strong tr on them. I don’t say I want someone to endgame and then solve. I only say that if my solve on them reads strong town.

I don't have a response to this other than I didn't see it that way and still don't. I want the strongest town player to endgame. Both LLD and Alyssa met the first criterion, and I wanted to see if they met the second. That may be because this is my first dance game, and maybe I should be looking at it like you and Guilty Lion do (I think what you just said is what he was trying to get across to me; you just said it in a more elegant, understandable fashion)

Does that make sense?

[Galron]

lol this post made me laugh and its two years old
man i was even more sassy back then

Spoiler: The memories

Subject: Merchant's Daughter [Endgame]

No I am just going for low hanging fruit like a moron pinkball.
I did respond to ur bad townread on Nancy though.

Are you ever going to explain why you’re scumreading me here. Pretend I’m 5, maybe that will get us somewhere.

Nancy I am a master at prediction, so this is what is going to happen.

I am going to tell you that I did have reasons and I pointed them out.
You are going to say those aren't reasons and for me to explain them or will say that I didn't come up with reasons for scumreading you.
Then I will repeat that I did.
Then you will say the same thing as you did before.

Then we shall repeat this dance all into the night while everyone watches wondering how crazy I am for participating.
Would you like to start?

This is funny tbh

[Firebringer]

wow then i read the rest of my iso in that game and....not pretty.
i like to think ive mellowed out more in 2 years. Probably haven't.
Should take anger management again.

[Galron]

3. I need to reassess Firebringer because apparently there's a party going on in his PT with Andante, and that wasn't there in Merchant's, but could be he didn't click with Doubting Thomas?

Firebringer, is there anything to this?

[Firebringer]

3. I need to reassess Firebringer because apparently there's a party going on in his PT with Andante, and that wasn't there in Merchant's, but could be he didn't click with Doubting Thomas?

Firebringer, is there anything to this?

me and andantes PT is not game related. We are posting in there a story, we doing it one sentence at a time right now the gunslinger is chasing the man in black and he might get the relic back but who knows. I will inform the whole thread what happens in next instalment.

[Galron]

a million dollars says this was a blow up in scum pt.

Norwee town makes me feel better about this now, as in I should have taken the bet.