Mini 2230: Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night: Game Over

[Lukewarm]

Like, how many times am I supposed to buy that you've figured it out, only before kicking a stone and looking sad when you're wrong before I realize it's just an act and you're scum trying as hard as you can to play make believe with your own ideas?
-Bell

I'll ask you the same question I asked unwnd...

I made a case that lead to a miselim day 1. Yes.

Does that mean that I should just stop trying to solve the game? Are you not the one who fussed at me when you thought I was giving up?

And you are talking like I have lead the town down the wrong path like a bunch of times, when literally the only decision that I influced from anyone at any point right now is "who out day 1 elim should be"

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

[Lukewarm]

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

And it was your slot that encouraged me to make the push in the first place....

(ffery, not you)

[Annie Edison]

I don’t really have an answer for why scum sharded me when they did. I’ve had the guesses about trying to make me an easy elim, or that they expect me to have egg on my face a la turnstiling a shitty role. It’s not like it would be the first time I’ve done it.

I can show you my wall that I made overnight scumreading Spiffeh and cephTD but it feels pretty fucking useless at this point with all the new information

[Annie Edison]

The second paragraph is in regards to the whole “you cleared someone after rhea soft cleared them” thing which like.. I get but I also can’t magically get a new night result

[Snarky Fishes]

Like, how many times am I supposed to buy that you've figured it out, only before kicking a stone and looking sad when you're wrong before I realize it's just an act and you're scum trying as hard as you can to play make believe with your own ideas?
-Bell

I'll ask you the same question I asked unwnd...

I made a case that lead to a miselim day 1. Yes.

Does that mean that I should just stop trying to solve the game? Are you not the one who fussed at me when you thought I was giving up?

And you are talking like I have lead the town down the wrong path like a bunch of times, when literally the only decision that I influced from anyone at any point right now is "who out day 1 elim should be"

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

I'm not discouraging you from trying to solve the game. I'm disagreeing with your reasons for scumreading Annie. If you're town I'm doing you a disservice if I don't share that thought. If you're scum I'm doing the rest of town a disservice.

I'm not some sort of infinite rubber stamp regardless of my read.

[Lukewarm]

Like, how many times am I supposed to buy that you've figured it out, only before kicking a stone and looking sad when you're wrong before I realize it's just an act and you're scum trying as hard as you can to play make believe with your own ideas?
-Bell

I'll ask you the same question I asked unwnd...

I made a case that lead to a miselim day 1. Yes.

Does that mean that I should just stop trying to solve the game? Are you not the one who fussed at me when you thought I was giving up?

And you are talking like I have lead the town down the wrong path like a bunch of times, when literally the only decision that I influced from anyone at any point right now is "who out day 1 elim should be"

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

I'm not discouraging you from trying to solve the game. I'm disagreeing with your reasons for scumreading Annie. If you're town I'm doing you a disservice if I don't share that thought. If you're scum I'm doing the rest of town a disservice.

I'm not some sort of infinite rubber stamp regardless of my read.

I don't really care that you disagree with my read. (which plenty of other people agree, and I think you are actually in the minority)

But look at the part I quoted from you above. That is not about agreeing or disagreeing.

That is, "you were wrong once, and therefore I think you are scum leading me astray." Which feels like a bad line of thinking unless you except a town player to just roll over if they have a wrong read day 1.


To be clear, Annie is a scum read of mine, but I am NOT so confident in it that I would want to bet the game on it. That is like the entire point of my plan. I am trying to make sure that if we are wrong on our solve today, we actually have some leway. Because killing our top scum read right now, and being wrong is a loss.

[Snarky Fishes]

Like, how many times am I supposed to buy that you've figured it out, only before kicking a stone and looking sad when you're wrong before I realize it's just an act and you're scum trying as hard as you can to play make believe with your own ideas?
-Bell

I'll ask you the same question I asked unwnd...

I made a case that lead to a miselim day 1. Yes.

Does that mean that I should just stop trying to solve the game? Are you not the one who fussed at me when you thought I was giving up?

And you are talking like I have lead the town down the wrong path like a bunch of times, when literally the only decision that I influced from anyone at any point right now is "who out day 1 elim should be"

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

I'm not discouraging you from trying to solve the game. I'm disagreeing with your reasons for scumreading Annie. If you're town I'm doing you a disservice if I don't share that thought. If you're scum I'm doing the rest of town a disservice.

I'm not some sort of infinite rubber stamp regardless of my read.

I don't really care that you disagree with my read. (which plenty of other people agree, and I think you are actually in the minority)

But look at the part I quoted from you above. That is not about agreeing or disagreeing.

That is, "you were wrong once, and therefore I think you are scum leading me astray." Which feels like a bad line of thinking unless you except a town player to just roll over if they have a wrong read day 1.


To be clear, Annie is a scum read of mine, but I am NOT so confident in it that I would want to bet the game on it. That is like the entire point of my plan. I am trying to make sure that if we are wrong on our solve today, we actually have some leway. Because killing our top scum read right now, and being wrong is a loss.

He's scumreading you and therefore he's not taking your stances at face value. It has nothing to do with trying to dissuade you from solving.

[Lukewarm]

He's scumreading you and therefore he's not taking your stances at face value. It has nothing to do with trying to dissuade you from solving

It kind of feels like he is positioning himself such that he is so sure that Annie is town, that anyone who thinks they might be scum must be scum themselves pushing a false narrative.

Well, off the top of my head all of me, Medea, unwnd, and lld have all vocalized that they are definitely not town reading the slot.

It is actually impossible for all 4 of us to be scum.

So, whether his read is right or wrong, he should probably consider that there is at least something there that he is not seeing to make at a minimum of 2 town players entertain the possibility.

[Snarky Fishes]

He's scumreading you and therefore he's not taking your stances at face value. It has nothing to do with trying to dissuade you from solving

It kind of feels like he is positioning himself such that he is so sure that Annie is town, that anyone who thinks they might be scum must be scum themselves pushing a false narrative.

Well, off the top of my head all of me, Medea, unwnd, and lld have all vocalized that they are definitely not town reading the slot.

It is actually impossible for all 4 of us to be scum.

So, whether his read is right or wrong, he should probably consider that there is at least something there that he is not seeing to make at a minimum of 2 town players entertain the possibility.

Regardless of your alignment (or unwnd's alignment for that matter), our opinions of you both cease to have an advocate with the next game day. In your case, our opinions aren't synced. In unwnd's case there's sync but I don't think it's solid, since I'm waffley waffle who waffles.

[Lukewarm]

He's scumreading you and therefore he's not taking your stances at face value

I am curious, when and why that happened?

I seem to remember being one of his strongest town reads at the start of this day.

[Snarky Fishes]

He's scumreading you and therefore he's not taking your stances at face value

I am curious, when and why that happened?

I seem to remember being one of his strongest town reads at the start of this day.

You've been one of MY strongest townreads. I'll ping him, but he's probably not around much until tonight at the earliest.

[Snarky Fishes]

Like, how many times am I supposed to buy that you've figured it out, only before kicking a stone and looking sad when you're wrong before I realize it's just an act and you're scum trying as hard as you can to play make believe with your own ideas?
-Bell

I'll ask you the same question I asked unwnd...

I made a case that lead to a miselim day 1. Yes.

Does that mean that I should just stop trying to solve the game? Are you not the one who fussed at me when you thought I was giving up?

And you are talking like I have lead the town down the wrong path like a bunch of times, when literally the only decision that I influced from anyone at any point right now is "who out day 1 elim should be"

(And I am pretty sure that you were also scum reading Titus before I said anything about her, AND you saw exactly what I saw about her...)

I'm questioning your sincerity, not playing the blame game. So your response is off track.

-Bell

[Lukewarm]

I'm questioning your sincerity, not playing the blame game. So your response is off track.

-Bell

What stance do you find insincere?

My push for the deshard plan, my scum reads on unwnd or on Annie?

Or all of the above?

And what makes you think I am being insincere?

Maybe this is a wasted conversation, because you guys are almost certainly town, and you are scum reading the dragons so that lines up with my plan anyways, but I am pretty confused. Like I said earlier, I feel like today has been my most obviously town day phase, yet this is the day that you went from having me in your top 3 town reads to apparently scum reading me, so, confusion.

[Snarky Fishes]

Thought about it, read about it, thought it some more. I think I'm inclined to think Unwnd is town because even at his most aggro and active, his scum game just looks a lot weaker than it is here.

Though yeah, him not thinking about using his ability creatively sucks but glass houses. Mismanagement of roles is not specific to him. Though, on the other hand, game designer not sure why they didn't think about it more.

Also, no. I'm not going to argue FF away from the vote given that her accuracy is a lot better than mine.

-Bell

[Snarky Fishes]

Never mind, you're town again Luke. Congratulations. Be free.
Also, FF does not think the dragons is scum. No conflation please.

-Bell

[Snarky Fishes]

Your curiosity as to the specific reasons as to why I'm scum reading you has won me over
Not joking.

My answer to those questions is that, basically, I have experience with a sort of flavor oriented hyper-self-believer scum player.
Like Titus in FGO II or me in Jesus christ mafia as an alt way back when. It makes me paranoid and worried when someone fits an archetype. I have to figure out whether they're being sincere in their belief or not. It sounds like Titus was, but I wasn't.

-Bell

[Snarky Fishes]

The next question as I follow up is whether you're focusing on mechanics in lieu of scum hunting or using it to inflate posts enthusiasm.

Also, yeah, I'm pretty sure we're obvious town if only because this is objectively the worst time to claim super saint if we had even a trace amount of survivalism.

-Bell

[Snarky Fishes]

Anyway I haven't seen my grandparent's in 3 weeks and I miss them so I'm going to go see them now.
And then do more documentation.

-Bell

[Snarky Fishes]

Thought about it, read about it, thought it some more. I think I'm inclined to think Unwnd is town because even at his most aggro and active, his scum game just looks a lot weaker than it is here.

Though yeah, him not thinking about using his ability creatively sucks but glass houses. Mismanagement of roles is not specific to him. Though, on the other hand, game designer not sure why they didn't think about it more.

Also, no. I'm not going to argue FF away from the vote given that her accuracy is a lot better than mine.

-Bell

Unvote: unwnd

.

[Lukewarm]

Your curiosity as to the specific reasons as to why I'm scum reading you has won me over
Not joking.

My answer to those questions is that, basically, I have experience with a sort of flavor oriented hyper-self-believer scum player.
Like Titus in FGO II or me in Jesus christ mafia as an alt way back when. It makes me paranoid and worried when someone fits an archetype. I have to figure out whether they're being sincere in their belief or not. It sounds like Titus was, but I wasn't.

-Bell

I guess I can see what you are saying here?

I am not sure that I have been particularly flavor focused though. I did not even think to ask about the flavor claims, that came from manatee. But, once it was out there, it seems pretty convincing to me. Like, in that game Anne very much is the back up to Dominique lol.

I was much more focused on : there is no way that we would ever be expected to solve the exact scum team on this day phase, when there have been exactly 2 flips, and once I saw a path that could give us some way out of that I have been pushing for it hard.

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it your way sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

[Snarky Fishes]

Your curiosity as to the specific reasons as to why I'm scum reading you has won me over
Not joking.

My answer to those questions is that, basically, I have experience with a sort of flavor oriented hyper-self-believer scum player.
Like Titus in FGO II or me in Jesus christ mafia as an alt way back when. It makes me paranoid and worried when someone fits an archetype. I have to figure out whether they're being sincere in their belief or not. It sounds like Titus was, but I wasn't.

-Bell

I guess I can see what you are saying here?

I am not sure that I have been particularly flavor focused though. I did not even think to ask about the flavor claims, that came from manatee. But, once it was out there, it seems pretty convincing to me. Like, in that game Anne very much is the back up to Dominique lol.

I was much more focused on : there is no way that we would ever be expected to solve the exact scum team on this day phase, when there have been exactly 2 flips, and once I saw a path that could give us some way out of that I have been pushing for it hard.

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it

your way

sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

What way is "your way"?

[Lukewarm]

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it your way sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

All plans involve finding our best guess for the scum team today, but then the different plans branch on how to go about killing them

------

Plan 1: Vote for the scum team directly this Day phase.

Spoiler:

If we are correct, we have killed scum today. Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have no miss shots)

If we are wrong, we lose. On the spot. They turn 2 people tonight using the corrupter, and then there are 8 demons and 2 scum tomorrow.

------

Plan 2: Try to get our top scum read to hammer the Fishes

Spoiler:

If we are correct, they just refuse to hammer. We then have to vote them out directly. We kill scum today, Yay!

If we hit the Corrupter, then tomorrow will be the day before elo to find the other one. (we have 1 miss shot)
If we hit the non-corrupter, then tomorrow is ELO. (we have 0 miss shots)

If we are wrong, then a townie hammers you, and tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose. If we do this plan, hit a townie today, and then successfully find scum tomorrow, but it is the non-corrupter tomorrow we lose.

Plan 3: Ask the dragons to hammer the Fishes (then killing our top scum reads starting tomorrow)

Spoiler:

If we do this plan, and we are right, we buy ourselves SO FUCKING MUCH Leway. Like, omg, we can miss like 3 times afterwards. And we are getting so much more info to solve with.

If we are wrong, then we still don't lose. It is the same as missing in plan 2: tomorrow is Elo. 2 scum alive, find the corrupter or lose.

-----

My plan has THE BEST upside if it works, hands down. No one is even arguing this, I don't think

But then it does not even have the worst downsides on being wrong (see plan 1)...

And there are still people out there advocating plan 1...



To be real, it feels like A LOT of people are dismissing the plan, because not trying to kill scum today does not "feel right" and trying to vote out the scum does "feel right" without actually looking at the pros and cons of the plans.

[Lukewarm]

Your curiosity as to the specific reasons as to why I'm scum reading you has won me over
Not joking.

My answer to those questions is that, basically, I have experience with a sort of flavor oriented hyper-self-believer scum player.
Like Titus in FGO II or me in Jesus christ mafia as an alt way back when. It makes me paranoid and worried when someone fits an archetype. I have to figure out whether they're being sincere in their belief or not. It sounds like Titus was, but I wasn't.

-Bell

I guess I can see what you are saying here?

I am not sure that I have been particularly flavor focused though. I did not even think to ask about the flavor claims, that came from manatee. But, once it was out there, it seems pretty convincing to me. Like, in that game Anne very much is the back up to Dominique lol.

I was much more focused on : there is no way that we would ever be expected to solve the exact scum team on this day phase, when there have been exactly 2 flips, and once I saw a path that could give us some way out of that I have been pushing for it hard.

I actually am not sure why so many people are so against it anyways. Even if I am wrong, I am pretty sure that we are in the same boat as if we just hunt for the right scum team. And absolutely no one giving me a reasonable explanation of how it is better to do it

your way

sure does not make me feel like changing gears....

What way is "your way"?

See plans 1 and 2 above, and it would depend on the person.

I believe you and medea are on board for plan 2.

I believe annie, lld, and unwnd have all been voting people directly, so plan 1...

[Annie Edison]

[Lukewarm]

The next question as I follow up is whether you're focusing on mechanics in lieu of scum hunting or using it to inflate posts enthusiasm.

And, like. The mechanic thing has been my loudest stance, but I have been scum hunting too.

See me coming out and engaging with the reads on all of AA9, the dragons, Annie, and unwnd this day phase

And then you guys have been town locked for a while, and your self-sacrifice plan is pretty fucking townie as well.

Who have I not even been talking about?

Manatee? I am like, really really on board for manatee being town. Our back and forth last night while simultaneously figuring out her flavor stuff felt SO genuine.

LLD? I am pretty sure she is town. I have been leaning that way for a while. I also don't see scum LLD drawing attention to the possibility that manatee could be a deshard back up. Like ever? The scum are trying to win via shards, and she was pretty responsible for us finding the tools for my plan.

Spiff? Looking at how hard he pushed Pooky, I was leaning towards him being town. Now, with Annie's inno on him he is never scum unless exactly with annie, so not worth even looking at before an Annie flip

Dunn and Medea? Every fiber of my being says that they are scum when I look over their isos from days 1 and 2, but dunn has seemed super town, and I just dont see how the mech could work on scum medea.