Mafiascum.net

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:124 is terrible where he asks ffery what the point is of having a look for passive voice in lngrrrR's town game. I think it is fairly obvious: if LngrrrR generally uses passive voice as town, then it becomes a null tell. LngrrrR was also the hot topic for discussion at the time, so checking up his meta is hardly a distraction.

The whole "passive voice" argument seemed like pointless, pedantic garbage to me and went on way too long.

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:The amount of null reads he has in 181 is troubling coupled with no attempt at developing any reads. 183 is just hoping someone else makes things happen. I really don't like 186 - pre-emptively justifying why he is dead weight in this game by referring to his other games. If he was dead weight before, makes no sense to not try and improve.

You think I'm not trying to get reads or improve at playing? I sit here for probably half an hour per post trying to come up with questions and reads, and come up with pointless headaches instead. I am a bad player and will probably stay that way for several years whether I try to improve or not. That does not mean I am scum; that means I am a policy lynch.

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:271 where he says Jason has been more helpful doesn't sit right either. Jason had not done anything up until that point other than promise reads.

That was my point. I felt Marquis had done less than promise reads.

In post 524, LnGrrrR wrote:Please do something.

I'll do a votecount analysis or something. At least I'm capable of that.

@Toomai, I would rather you ask BAD questions, or make BAD observations, than do neither.

In post 525, Toomai wrote:

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:124 is terrible where he asks ffery what the point is of having a look for passive voice in lngrrrR's town game. I think it is fairly obvious: if LngrrrR generally uses passive voice as town, then it becomes a null tell. LngrrrR was also the hot topic for discussion at the time, so checking up his meta is hardly a distraction.

The whole "passive voice" argument seemed like pointless, pedantic garbage to me and went on way too long.

Okay, that makes sense considering you had LngrrrR as "extremely slightly" town during that time.

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:The amount of null ads he has in 181 is troubling coupled with no attempt at developing any reads. 183 is just hoping someone else makes things happen. I really don't like 186 - pre-emptively justifying why he is dead weight in this game by referring to his other games. If he was dead weight before, makes no sense to not try and improve.

You think I'm not trying to get reads or improve at playing? I sit here for probably half an hour per post trying to come up with questions and reads, and come up with pointless headaches instead. I am a bad player and will probably stay that way for several years whether I try to improve or not. That does not mean I am scum; that means I am a policy lynch.

If you spent so much time reading through, just say what is on your mind or what you thought upon reading even if you can't substantiate it.

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:271 where he says Jason has been more helpful doesn't sit right either. Jason had not done anything up until that point other than promise reads.

That was my point. I felt Marquis had done less than promise reads.

How so? Marquis had at that point provided reads and explained her read on Rach in 222.

Righto, D1 votes.

Player	Game start	StubbsKVM claim (257)	JW claim (306)	LnGrrrR claim (409)	Final vote
Syryana	LnGrrrR (2), JW (3), StubbsKVM (3)	JW (4)	unvote	MSG (1), Marquis (4)	Marquis (4)
penguin_alien	Amrun (1), Marquis (1), unvote , StubbsKVM (6)	JW (2)	unvote	StubbsKVM (3)	StubbsKVM (2)
fferyllt	StubbsKVM (4)	unvote	JW (6)	unvote	[no vote]
JasonWazza	Amrun (3)				Amrun (1)
StubbsKVM	Marquis (4)				Marquis (2)
Amrun	CDb (1), Marquis (3), MSG (1), LnGrrrR (2), StubbsKVM (2)	LnGrrrR (1)			LnGrrrR (1)
LnGrrrR	RM (1), Marquis (2)	JW (5)	unvote , Marquis (4)	StubbsKVM (1), unvote , Marquis (6)	Marquis (6)
Toomai	LnGrrrR (1), Marquis (3), JW (2)	Marquis (4)			Marquis (3)
MSG	Amrun (3), unvote			Marquis (5), StubbsKVM (1)	StubbsKVM (1)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon	JW (1), StubbsKVM (5)	JW (2)		StubbsKVM (2), unvote , Marquis (7)	Marquis (7)
RachMarie	Marquis (4)				Marquis (1)
Marquis	Toomai (1), Amrun (4), CDb (2), Amrun (4), RM (1)			LnGrrrR (3), unvote , JW (2)	JW (1)
ChannelDelibird	Amrun (2), LnGrrrR (3), StubbsKVM (1)	unvote , LnGrrrR (2), JW (3)	LnGrrrR (2)	Marquis (5)	Marquis (5)

Columns named by event that started them; last column shows final votes, not vote changes. Random votes counted. unvotes noted. Wagon positions noted.
, ,

What I see when I look at this:

• Three people (JW, Stubbs, and RM) never changed their votes throughout the day. JW claims he scumread Amrun, but still needs to explain why. Stubbs confirmed his vote once throughout the day with 242; RM kinda did with 264.
  
• fferyllt is the only person to not vote for Squilly/Marquis at some point, aside from JW.
  
• Something's bugging me about how Syryana's votes on the two claiming wagons and the lynching wagon are all in about the same place (midpoint/just before midpoint).

In post 527, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

Toomai wrote:

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:271 where he says Jason has been more helpful doesn't sit right either. Jason had not done anything up until that point other than promise reads.

That was my point. I felt Marquis had done less than promise reads.

How so? Marquis had at that point provided reads and explained her read on Rach in 222.

That was one very specific meta note. Aside from that he had posted two one-liner reads ("Rach is scum", "Feg is probably scum") with no promise of explanation.

Toomai, I think the table looks pretty but most of the conclusions you drew from them are irrelevant to finding scum. Do you believe that never changing their votes during the Day Phase scummy? What about not voting for Squilly/Marquis?

I think Syryana voting in the middle of the wagon is likely a co-incidence. Someone's got to supply the middle votes and voting in the middle isn't any more likely to come from scum than town.

I don't agree that a specific meta note is less helpful than the promise of reads but that's debatable so I guess it could make sense from your viewpoint.

In post 526, LnGrrrR wrote:@Toomai, I would rather you ask BAD questions, or make BAD observations, than do neither.

*takes comfort in this*

Will try to get to this tomorrow

hey fferylt, are you still as sure about Syryana's town meta as you were in post 247 on Day 1? If yes I would be interested to know how given the very low participation...

@Jason,

Here's the plan. Either scumhunt, or give results, or no protection for you, because you haven't done one towny thing yet this game.

@Rach, what are your current reads.

@PA, you had Stubbs and I as pinging scumdar yesterDay. Who is pinging now?

.

In post 532, MSG wrote:hey fferylt, are you still as sure about Syryana's town meta as you were in post 247 on Day 1? If yes I would be interested to know how given the very low participation...

Are you familiar with hydras at MS?

I know what they are. I haven't followed any games using them.

do you get to pm the other heads when you're playing as a hydra?

It's basically two people sharing the same role. They use chat or quicktopic threads to discuss the game, and both log in to the same account to post.

Syr and I have played a bunch of games together as a hydra. Right now, I'm playing more games as that hydra than I am with this (my main) account.

We've also played a bunch of games together with our main accounts. I feel like I know his town game really well.

He's on V/LA (Vacation/Limited Access) until sometime this weekend.

He tends to get away from games for a few days and then come back, usually with fresh perspective even when he's not on vacation.

In post 533, LnGrrrR wrote:@Jason,

Here's the plan. Either scumhunt, or give results, or no protection for you, because you haven't done one towny thing yet this game.

@Rach, what are your current reads.

@PA, you had Stubbs and I as pinging scumdar yesterDay. Who is pinging now?

.

My thoughts on scum blocking Stubbs still stand from earlier. I don't think you're scum since, like I said, it makes little sense for you to start undermining CDB and then NK him. Maybe if he was a threat to others on your team and flips bear that out, but it's a point against you being scum. Your hop on Toomai is lazy, but not necessarily scummy, and it does seem to have prodded him into activity.

MSG spends a lot of time asking for other's opinions in a way that comes off as him looking for someone to sheep blame-free. He almost never gives opinions on other people's play; instead he asks them to see what they think of said people. I'd quote it from his ISO, but it's an easy read for anyone who cares to do so.

VOTE: MSG

Since there's so little going on, Ill share my results.

I've used my cop on Amrun. I wasn't getting a read on her, so I figured a result would at least get that out of the way.
Considering I stated on day 1 that I was having a hard time reading Amrun, I can't really think of anyone else who would have reasons to Roleblock me. Like I said, plenty of wine involved.

Thoughts?

Okay, now I feel much better about Stubbs as town considering and ISO of his posts searching for "Amrun" shows that he has as null for most of the game except for the very last reference where he says that Jason might be onto something with Amrun - meaning he is starting to lean scum on someone that was townread a lot, making her a great choice for investigation.

539 also reads as a genuine attempt to move the game forward.

@Stubbs, did you lose your shot, or do you get to keep it since you were roleblocked?

I still have it.

Good to hear. I don't think we should out this info, but you should see if you can self-protect with the doc shot.

In post 237, Toomai wrote:"Extremely slighty" means my read on a post/player is basically null but with one or two points towards town or scum.

Toomai, can you give more reads along with the numbers? Do you have a list/chart of players and your reads?

On a second re-read and after finishing reading Toomai's meta, he actually reads very town.

UNVOTE:

In post 543, LnGrrrR wrote:I don't think we should out this info, but you should see if you can self-protect with the doc shot.

Yeah like that's ever allowed.

In post 544, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Toomai, can you give more reads along with the numbers? Do you have a list/chart of players and your reads?

Syryana: (when I think without checking, I can't think of anything significant that's been done)
penguin_alien: (basically null)
fferyllt: (basically null)
JasonWazza: (claim is fine but hasn't been cooperative in giving that one read on Amrun)
StubbsKVM: (disbelieve this claim the most flavour-wise, and hasn't really done much since)
Amrun: (basically null)
LnGrrrR: (I believe this claim the most of all three given ones, and even without that he's doing the right things)
MSG: (purely null)
F-16_Fighting_Falcon: (has been doing the right things throughout the game)
RachMarie: (basically null)

Great. I figured you'd have a graph after reading your meta and thought that your "extremely slightly" and reference to numbers might be something you are noting down but haven't shared yet. Now it makes sense.

Yeah, that actually checks out perfectly with the weak, aggregate reads at 175 as well.

So, I want to put some narrative up front on this. My impression of PA's play day 1 was that she goes after easy targets and hedges so I wanted to confirm or refute that. Almost right off the bat, Squilly came under fire for what looked logic failes and sketchy to nonexistant reasoning for his votes/stances. That's the kind of stuff I like to watch - to see who jumps on the obvnewbs or VIs and where they go as the game progresses.

In post 20, penguin_alien wrote:...so you think Amrun could be scum, but ChannelDelibird is scum for voting him. Uh-huh.

VOTE: Squilly

Like several others, she jumped here.

In post 132, penguin_alien wrote:I see where people say Squilly was scum-hunting, but it still seems like

the kind of fake scum hunting scum like to do

. Jason reads sketchy to me, but that might be residual paranoia from our last game together. LnGrrrR's reaction to the wagon looks worse than the reason he was wagoned in the first place.

This was a characterization with no backup really. She hedges on both Squilly and Jason in this post. Also, added some fuel to the LnGrrrR FoS fest that was happeneing at the time.

In post 190, penguin_alien wrote:I'll see what Squilly's replacement does.

UNVOTE: Squilly

Stubbs, what's your rationale for voting Squilly-slot over JasonWazza?

I liked that she backed off when Squilly was being replaced. But, I thought this could be another move toward low hanging fruit and wondered why she didn't push Jason more at this point.

In post 239, penguin_alien wrote:Tempted to put Stubbs at L-1. Much as I thought Squilly was scummy, and Marquis is pinging oddly, that Stubbs and LnGrrrR are on the wagon makes me uneasy. Whereas I like nearly all of the Stubbs wagon participants. Will see what Stubbs has to say when he gets back in here.

This looked like she was keeping her options open on the two main suspects at the time.

In post 253, penguin_alien wrote:

In post 240, StubbsKVM wrote:

penguin alien wrote:Stubbs, what's your rationale for voting Squilly-slot over JasonWazza?

Pressure votes don't seem to work on Jason.

But if he's a scum read, he's a scum read and thus worth voting. And pressure votes without follow-up pressure aren't super-useful.

VOTE: Stubbs

L-1

On reread, this one particularly stood out, because she'd FoSed Jason herself but didn't pressure him. So if votes don't work, how do you sort someone? She addressed very little to Jason on day 1 and seemed content to let a scumspect slide here.

In post 289, penguin_alien wrote:I don't think I've played with town-Jason, but his pointed comments and veneer of...being infalliable? are reminiscent of his scum play from the large Mainstream game where he snowed us town. I don't have town reads on Marquis or LnGrrrR, but I don't trust Jason at all right now.

UNVOTE: Stubbs
VOTE: JasonWazza

But, here she does vote, at a point in the game where he was picking up votes from others.

In post 311, penguin_alien wrote:UNVOTE: JasonWazza

Not sure which claim makes more sense. Given the different action sets, the Filch claim is more in keeping with flavor, and IIRC, all the town PRs in the first HP game were adult characters.

I liked this post. It looked like genuinely trying to sort the two JOAT claims.

In post 318, penguin_alien wrote:

In post 312, ChannelDelibird wrote:Losing a post sucks but you do need to explain your reaction to Stubbs's claim at an absolute minimum.

PEdit: p_a, why does one have to make more sense than the other?

Two JOAT claims. Could be town-town, town-scum, or scum-scum. Considering how much sense either of them makes is kind of the point. Jason not addressing the other JOAT claim is sketchy, and I'd rather not speculate further until he does, as it seems like we have more time now.

Another hedgy post.

In post 380, penguin_alien wrote:I'd vote for LnGrrrR or Marquis, but I want to think more about it. If we're not touching the JOAT claims yet, that stands a decent chance of eating up our margin of error, which makes it more important to lynch right here.

In post 432, penguin_alien wrote:

In post 423, fferyllt wrote:

In post 318, penguin_alien wrote:

In post 312, ChannelDelibird wrote:Losing a post sucks but you do need to explain your reaction to Stubbs's claim at an absolute minimum.

PEdit: p_a, why does one have to make more sense than the other?

Two JOAT claims. Could be town-town, town-scum, or scum-scum. Considering how much sense either of them makes is kind of the point. Jason not addressing the other JOAT claim is sketchy, and I'd rather not speculate further until he does, as it seems like we have more time now.

P_A, on reread this post kind of pings, that you included scum-scum.

What made you think this could be a possibility?

Their interactions with one another's wagons weren't super-organic, especially Jason's intent to hammer. And neither one really pushed the other on the claim conflict the way I'd expect town to if someone else impinged on their role. (She says, from the perspective of having had scum accidentally receive my town character as a fakeclaim and subsequently flipping out. And that was just character, not the role name) If one flipped scum, our inclination would be to let the other slide. Plus, Nexus loves giving scum daytalk, which makes that kind of maneuver easier to coordinate.

Having said that, the part where LnGrrrR claimed an adult character with a PR and knowing that the PRs were with non-child characters last game (don't know what Peeves is) makes me inclined to believe Jason over Stubbs. So I'd lynch Marquis to avoid a no-lynch, but I think I like the Stubbs wagon better.

Didn't like this not organic argument. Sorting claims like this always seems awkward to me, and I've seen enough duplicate or near duplicate roles in games at MS that I tend to to assume it's moderator-planned mind-fuckery.

In post 538, penguin_alien wrote:

In post 533, LnGrrrR wrote:@Jason,

Here's the plan. Either scumhunt, or give results, or no protection for you, because you haven't done one towny thing yet this game.

@Rach, what are your current reads.

@PA, you had Stubbs and I as pinging scumdar yesterDay. Who is pinging now?

.

My thoughts on scum blocking Stubbs still stand from earlier. I don't think you're scum since, like I said, it makes little sense for you to start undermining CDB and then NK him. Maybe if he was a threat to others on your team and flips bear that out, but it's a point against you being scum. Your hop on Toomai is lazy, but not necessarily scummy, and it does seem to have prodded him into activity.

MSG spends a lot of time asking for other's opinions in a way that comes off as him looking for someone to sheep blame-free. He almost never gives opinions on other people's play; instead he asks them to see what they think of said people. I'd quote it from his ISO, but it's an easy read for anyone who cares to do so.

VOTE: MSG

This struck me as maybe another run at low-hanging fruit.