Mafiascum.net

In post 522, TheIrishPope wrote:He won't compromise

We're not near deadline. There's no reason for Chaos to compromise.

In post 522, TheIrishPope wrote: he won't act logically

Actually, I've felt that his arguments have been very logical.

In post 522, TheIrishPope wrote: it's like textbook scum (but I refuse to believe it's too easy.)

We must be using a different textbook then.

In post 522, TheIrishPope wrote: F-16_Fighting_Falcon: Some things are Town, some things are scum, I want people to help me on this. I have no idea.

He's scum. I'm pretty confident on this.

In post 523, The Purple Rose wrote: I think this is a good moment to get out of the playstyle of winning a debate and start finding the real scum. You aren't being productive here bulba, and this quote shows it. Your intentions are off.

I've found scum. It's F-16. Vote him with me.

In post 523, The Purple Rose wrote: Also, I could've sworn I voted pitoli, but apparently I forgot?

vote pitoli

I really believe this should be the lynch today. Please make it happen!

I don't feel like a Pitoli lynch anymore, tbh.

you talked yourself into f-16. I know how he plays, I've read his posts, and I've explained so far in two posts why he's my top town read. The post I quoted is a bit saddening. It shows you are straying from how you played at the start of the game, and I don't like the change very much. You were better then.

Also, regardless of how much some players ridiculed chaos, he's right on pitoli. No one of the townies would think of making a singular post just asking for a cop investigation. It shows two things. That she's somehow aware that there perhaps is a cop, and that the thing that's on her mind is investigations. Two things that townies do not know and do not worry about. Call it a tell, call it a slip, pitoli showed what she was thinking and it's not clearly not town!

TPR I think I get what people have been saying when they said you feel town. Bc you do.

Been reading ISOs.

Pit I'm pretty sure is town.
F16 I'm going with town because of his ballsy actions (towards me for example).
Bulb I haven't gotten through the wall-war yet, but I'm mostly through (specifically, I'm at #426). That said, his sudden switch onto F16 after spending the majority of the previous time pushing for a Pit lynch confuses me. Esp since it just seems like his Pit read has disappeared.
And I think TiP might be scum.

And there are still more isos to read. : ]

^ clarification: the pit read def hasn't disappeared (and I see that now that I'm reading more), but Bulb definitely distances from the Pit scum read in #426 that he had been pushing so hard previously. Then he goes on to push another scum read almost just as hard very quickly.

In post 528, Lastsurvivor wrote: That said, his sudden switch onto F16 after spending the majority of the previous time pushing for a Pit lynch confuses me.

It was multiple things, but mainly his insistence that I not base my townread on him off of his association with Pitoli and his WKing of Pitoli that came out of nowhere.

In post 528, Lastsurvivor wrote: Esp since it just seems like his Pit read has disappeared.

Not disappeared. Reversed.

I understand your reasoning for F16scum sure enough.

I don't think I understand what you mean by "Reversed," though.

In post 531, Lastsurvivor wrote: I don't think I understand what you mean by "Reversed," though.

I no longer read Pitoli as scum.

Meh. When did that happen? It wasn't too long ago that you were defending CO's case on Pit, and I haven't seen any real indicators that you've been thinking Pittown until just then. I've only seen indicators that you dont' feel like wagoning her anymore.

It looks like you're sort of doing what you accused F16 of in #456. Your Pit push didn't work, so you decided to go full steam ahead on another target.

It seems like Bulba's reads of me and F-16 are inversely related honestly

Which I think is pretty unsound, given that it's not a guarantee that a scum voted TiP during that RVS wagon.

My posting will be very limited next week because I have a big project due on Friday night but I am obsessed with mafia so I'll share what I have but I'll be brief. I had some really good revelations about this game. I am fairly sure Sangres is town - in fact, I am very, very certain that this is the case. It is based on a few awesome meta-tells that I applied in completely the wrong way which makes so much sense for why I scumread them earlier. I will explain if I need to on Saturday when I have more time to actually make in-depth posts. The tl;dr (non-meta based) version is that ffery's initial investigation and Nacho's later attack on Bulbazak make perfect sense from a town perspective whereas if they were scum, they'd have to be faking a very convincing long term strategy that is actually completely unnecessary because they can choose to not do it and still get away with it. I feel confident in my ETL, Pitoli, Sangres townreads at this point. I think Bulbazak is scum with either Chaos, TIP, or TPR but I am not sure who.

In post 533, Lastsurvivor wrote:Meh. When did that happen?

I liked her #438. Shortly after that, you'll notice that I quit referring to F-16's actions as chainsaw defending and began referring to them as WKing, meaning I felt Pitoli was town.

In post 533, Lastsurvivor wrote: It looks like you're sort of doing what you accused F16 of in #456. Your Pit push didn't work, so you decided to go full steam ahead on another target.

Unlike F-16, if you read my posts, you should be able to sense the build up to the F-16 vote. He had been bothering me for awhile. Also, my push on Pitoli was not very strong, whereas my current push on F-16 is me giving scum no quarter.

In post 535, Lastsurvivor wrote:Which I think is pretty unsound, given that it's not a guarantee that a scum voted TiP during that RVS wagon.

It's not a guarantee, but it's very likely. I doubt scum could resist the opportunity that TIP presented.

Just a heads up: Nacho's laptop was stolen this weekend. It's going to mostly be fferyllt posting for the next few days.

In post 473, ChaosOmega wrote:

F16 wrote:You've decided that I am either a bad player or scum

I've decided that as well, by the way. Leaning towards bad player because you're pretty fucking persistent and blockheaded.

F16 wrote:ChaosOmega in no way should give you good townie feelings.

I gave your mom good townie feelings.

Bulba wrote:Can you make up your mind whether you want to push Sangres as scum or buddy up them?

Agreed.

pitoli wrote:Chaos says "Hmmmm doesn't strike me as scummy" ???? right after he got done calling me a godfather? This doesn't strike me as cognitive dissonance, yet he says it. Why bother?

My gut said you were scum, so i wanted to go through your votes to see if anything strange was there. I collected the whole conversation between you and TIP to analyze it, and nothing stuck to me as scummy from you in that exchange. Posting it was a combination of transparency in what I was looking at and questioning TIP about his reasoning for voting F16.

Lastsurvivor wrote:The only knock I have on CO is that he seems to only be focusing on certain players, and blatantly ignoring others

Fair enough. This is mainly because I'm pretty much null on a fair bit of players (you're a townread [obviously] F16 is to a lesser extent [unfortunately]; pitoli and TPR are my scum reads). I'll reevaluate and try to hammer down something more concrete on them after some deaths for a little more context (or if I need to abandon my reads for a deadline lynch D1).

loled several times reading this.

What did you get out of the Pitoli/TiP exchange then?

In post 517, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:Sangres, can you give me an update on your reads so I can have them in mind while I'm catching up?

Sup?

In post 537, Bulbazak wrote:I liked her #438. Shortly after that, you'll notice that I quit referring to F-16's actions as chainsaw defending and began referring to them as WKing, meaning I felt Pitoli was town.

I can't help but notice that most of pit's #438 is her defending you...but alright, what did you like about it?

re the rest: I can definitely see the build up on your F16 read. The problem is that I don't see a build up of a pit town read while that is happening (or at least, a decreasing of the pit scum read). Yes, you can have multiple scum reads, but Pit has essentially disappeared off your radar, and she did so even in between your vote of F16 and #438. That's something that rings alarm bells to me.

I don't like arguments against pitoli.

i dont want to lynch sangres or bbulbd. or tpr.

f16 bothers me. BUGS ME SO MUCH. there is definitely something fucking off about him.

i got nothin on chaso. tip is also confusing. like bulb but on the opposit spectram.

actually fuck it. f16 is going to bother mefor the rest of the game if he lasts through it. ehll if i last through it. i'm probably dying tonight which sucks.

VOTE: f16

In post 541, Lastsurvivor wrote:

In post 537, Bulbazak wrote:I liked her #438. Shortly after that, you'll notice that I quit referring to F-16's actions as chainsaw defending and began referring to them as WKing, meaning I felt Pitoli was town.

I can't help but notice that most of pit's #438 is her defending you...but alright, what did you like about it?

I liked her explanation about the cop scan comment. It made sense, although I would have liked her to have spoken up sooner. I also liked that last paragraph, the one where she essentially said "screw you". I felt that was a very town response, and it was what led me to reevaluate my read. Her posts after that secured my townread on her.

In post 541, Lastsurvivor wrote: re the rest: I can definitely see the build up on your F16 read. The problem is that I don't see a build up of a pit town read while that is happening (or at least, a decreasing of the pit scum read). Yes, you can have multiple scum reads, but Pit has essentially disappeared off your radar, and she did so even in between your vote of F16 and #438. That's something that rings alarm bells to me.

Until the post that changed my mind on Pit, I still had a scumread on her. That's why I was referring to F-16's defense as a chainsaw defense early on. I just went after F-16 more, because he was the stronger read (As I said repeatedly, Pitoli hadn't given me much to base a read on either way, so while it was a scumread, and the strongest I had, it was still relatively weak.). After my read changed on Pitoli, I stopped calling F-16's defense a chainsaw defense, and started referring to it as a WK.

In post 544, Bulbazak wrote:Until the post that changed my mind on Pit, I still had a scumread on her.

Oh. So why was it okay to townread F16 on the premise that both scum wouldn't hop on the TIP wagon...yet for some reason it was ok to scumread both of them when you were attacking F16?

VOTE: Bulb

In post 545, Lastsurvivor wrote: Oh. So why was it okay to townread F16 on the premise that both scum wouldn't hop on the TIP wagon...yet for some reason it was ok to scumread both of them when you were attacking F16?

That was a simple PoE read based off of a theory. F-16 started doing things that made me question that theory, namely attacking me for attacking Pitoli, which read like a chainsaw defense. Then you had him say this little gem:

In post 373, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote: 2) You are using a very weak RVS-POE reason this late into the game. It was an RVS-wagon. I don't think scum would particularly care that they are on the same wagon.

If you look at the post prior to that, you will see where I start to suspect chainsaw defending. After he said the above, that idea solidified in my mind. I held off voting him for a little while, because I was unsure if my gut was correct or not, but eventually I gave in and voted him.

Bulbazak's progression of reads on Pitoli:

SCUMREAD

372: Accuses me of chainsawing Pitoli.

375: Agrees that scum might be on the same wagon implying that Pitoli and I are scumbuddies.

377: Says Pitoli is scum unambiguously and with conviction. Still has me as a possible scumread but isn't sure.

394: I become a stronger read. He votes me. Pitoli is seemingly his second scumread.

410: He clarifies to Sangres that he never said he changed his mind. I just became a stronger read. Clearly, Pitoli is still the second strongest scumread. Asks Chaos to join him on me. He is persuading someone voting his second scumread to vote for his top scumread. Interesting point to note for later.

420: He considers that I could be scum even without Pitoli. He says that I am chainsawing if she is scum, and whiteknighting if she is town.

426: Calls Pitoli "leaning scum," yet says that what Chaos pointed out about her is a pretty strong indicator regarding desire to be scanned. Also says that her 424 mimics his reads. The tone here suggests that he finds her scummy.

428: Continues to agrue that there is no town motivation in asking to be investigated by the cop. Implies that he still finds Pitoli to be scummy.

433: Refers to Pitoli as my "partner." Pitoli scumread is clearly still there.

436: Calls ChaosOmega's case on Pitoli "good." Scumread is still there.

THE POST THAT CHANGED IT ALL

Pitoli's 438 (The post that changed Bulbazak's mind): Defends Bulbazak. Gives a "fuck you" response at the end, etc.

439: Continues attacking me while also saying that Pitoli's actions were scummy (he didn't seem to have read Pitoli's 438).

440: Explains why he said Pitoli was mimicking him. Says "fair enough" to the last part of Pitoli's 438.

TOWNREAD

445: Says that I was looking for "towncred" while I defended Pitoli. This signals a clear shift to Pitoli being town.

449: Defends Pitoli some more asking how she could know that I wasn't whiteknighting her. Again, makes sense if he thinks of Pitoli as town.

453: Continues accusing me of WKing again implying that Pitoli is town.

456: Says that I changed directions from him to Sangres because I encountered resistance from a source I wasn't expecting (Pitoli). This implies that Pitoli is town because it makes no sense that I would encounter resistance from a scumbuddy.

466: Explains to Sangres that there is very little town motivation in asking the cop to scan you if town. But it doesn't seem like he is actually pushing Pitoli scumread but rather justifying his initial scumread on Pitoli (so it is possible he still read Pitoli as town at this point).

478: Accuses me of WKing Pitoli. Again points to a Pitoli townread. Defends the case against Pitoli although he could just be trying to accuse me of attacking a "good" case even if he now believes the case to be on a townie (Pitoli).

483: Asks Sangres why he is not on Pitoli again if he was pushing wagons like they say he has. (The implication is that Pitoli is town).

491: Explains that he finally concluded that I was chainsaw defending Pitoli. I'll assume that he was explaining a state-of-mind he had at the point he made the conclusion. ETL asked him a question and he was referring to a past timeframe.

525: Flat-out says that he doesn't feel like a Pitoli lynch anymore. Pitoli is clearly town to him to the point where he refuses to join her wagon.

530: Calls my defense of Pitoli "whiteknighting" and says that he reversed his read on Pitoli. Consistent with a Pitoli townread.

532: Flat-out says that he no longer reads Pitoli as scum.

Conclusion:
What I see is that Bulbazak's reads are fairly consistent with what he is saying. His Pitoli read is . There is no progression or continuum. He reads Pitoli as scum until a post that changes his read and then starts reading her as town. There is a consistent thought process on each side of the binary line which I am leaning towards it being a town thought process. LastSurvivor, Nacho (and ffery if you are willing to discuss) what do you think of this? I see his loss of a Pitoli scumread as completely effortless, he doesn't even mention it. Rather it is implied. His actions on both sides of the line make complete sense considering his Pitoli read. I am not sure if Binary vs Continuous thought processes are necessarily alignment indicative. Did you notice anything relevant to this while playing with Bulbazak before? Is it alignment indicative for him to switch reads gradually or in a binary fashion?

On the flip side, if he is scum, he had to plant these thought processes very carefully. From a scum perspective, Pitoli's post agreeing with him could mean that he chose to buddy her instead of attacking her and as such could have tailored his posts from then on to getting her on his side but I am leaning towards it being less likely than the town perspective. I'll meta-dive when I find time to follow up.

I guess you can take me off of V/LA since I had more time than I expected. I had a big project due on Friday that got extended to Monday so I'll probably find time to post at least once every 48 hours (within prod range anyways), but I doubt I'll post much more than that. In any case, I'll most likely post less towards this weekend.

Yeah, there's no way that's scum...