Mafiascum.net

In post 464, nancy wrote:

In post 456, Scioness Sajj wrote:by the end of yesterday we had about the same post count. i have expected you'd focus on catching up and providing content not having your presence known. i think that if i'm wrong on your slot your input would make me doubt my read. why do you expect me to wait until you read the game in this gamestate if i'm already sring your slot?

Oh I didn't realize I had more posts than you already. I think where you've gone wrong is probably that expectation about what I'll do. It's an understandable thing to expect I guess but that's not really me as a player? When I replace into games as town I love to start immediately commenting on whatever is going on at the time. Interacting with people helps me to understand them better and the game better and it's boring to just read past pages and not doing anything in the present.

I don't expect you to wait, I'm just wondering why you didn't and try to understand you better by asking about it. If I see something I don't understand then I ask about it, is fairly normal and staying silent doesn't help me. You didn't give reasons and it seemed strange that you voted me then after the posts that I had been making so I was confused and I wanted to talk to you about to figure out what was going on.

In post 456, Scioness Sajj wrote:you know i'm scumreading your slot so i don't know why you are pushing this angle. i think your slot is scum, your contribution to the game has been null so far (with a meh policy push).
it's been two days and about 30 posts for both of us. three people has already stated some reads on my slot that was earlier null for them. i had a chance to do something and so had you.
i'm sring your slot so it's not really about being interested in figuring out your alignment but giving you a chance to redeem your slot. i can't really talk to you if you haven't caught up.

In post 456, Scioness Sajj wrote:i don't think it is my job to make people convince me that i'm wrong.
i have been trying to talk to him about my townread that he is scumreading and other things but he left me hanging. i'm also not really fond of his reads, you saw my readlist.
i have been bothering with preventing mislynches on people that i townread, that's my priority for this phase tbf.

I think we have a very different process. I always try to talk to people about what they think about my reads because I think the more thoughts from different people that I have about everything that I think, the less chance there is that something will be missed or misread or anything like that. It's not so much about making people convince me that I'm wrong as figuring how their understanding of the game relates to my understanding of the game and what that means about their alignment and our reads.

I like that you're focusing on your townreads! We definitely have that in common.

In post 456, Scioness Sajj wrote:i'm voting where my strongest sr is mand and you know it.

I probably just need to read up on where you're at with things but I'm confused? You just earlier that you're voting me because you didn't like the other wagons and I haven't impressed you, which sounds like you don't have a strong read on me and are mostly just picking the lynch out of the available options that you have the least resistance to?

In post 456, Scioness Sajj wrote:you should know the answer to the first question.
i'm not the only person sring your slot nor the only person voting you now.
i want to lynch my strongest scumread, not a replacement that has yet to maybe deliver i think that should be clear to you but i guess this angle favors you.

Um. I don't think assuming that I am mafia and that I am lying about everything is very helpful and if you're town then you might want to try to change your approach a bit and give the benefit of the doubt to people?

In post 456, Scioness Sajj wrote:do you really think i didn't put in any effort?

I mean, you were just saying eh and voting and your other posts seemed kind of "bluh" so that was kind of what I thought yeah. Sorry if that was uncharitable of me.

In post 475, Ircher wrote:35:

Harambey wrote:The wagon was mostly formed thanks to RVS so I didn't have much to defend against. Besides, wagons this early on hardly ever get said person lynched. Why would I try to 'defend' myself against a wagon this early on? By staying silent I also won't give scum more information / opportunities to throw more shade in me. And the more I talk, the more I'm putting myself in a losing position based on the past. Because of how I verbalize things, I guess.

So, why do I get townvibes from this? Well, I think I need to clarify first that when I was going through, I was not focusing on what the post says so much as trying to understand from what perspective it most likely was coming from. Why would scum!Harambey stay silent in the first place? Nacho gave a possible explanation in the previous post, but is it the most probable explanation? I think not;

I feel like scum in general would be more likely to actually do something than stay silent, even if they do not directly address their wagon.

Also, I don't think the second half of the post comes from scum that often; it registers as something that a townie would say if they know they have been lynched for such in the past multiple times.

What I mean is that the post does not feel to me like an attempt to garner towncred or to place a "pro-town" explanation to his actions. Instead, it seems to me like his genuine perspective on his wagon formation. More so than that (though this is a bit subjective), it really feels like a post that is much more likely to be expressed by town than by scum. (And no, it doesn't read as an attempt to play it safe, but rather as I said before, an honest presentation of thoughts on the matter.)
---

210:

Harambey wrote:Should we need one or two people as team leader(s) to coordinate everything that happens in this game? Things like: making sure that one discussion doesn't go out of hand, let people take turns, make sure that two topics aren't discussed at the same time (because that's less efficient imo). That's what I'm thinking of rn.

Unlike the previous post I commented on, this post can basically be summed up as LAMIST (Look At Me, I'm So Town!). It is fine playing a central role in the game; however, when you go as far as saying, "Hey, let's appoint some leaders that decide everything" while subtly implying "I would be a great candidate for the town leader", it basically amounts to a LAMIST argument. They are trying to draw attention to their "positive" and "town" aspects in a way that goes beyond that of a self-centered townie (which we all are).

In post 476, Ircher wrote:

In post 474, Scioness Sajj wrote:My point in 'Plus...' paragraph is that generally Harambey has been displaying surface level pro-town attitude but was to concern with his safety there to see an opportunity to actually do something pro-town.

To be quite honest, I think we all basically play mafia the wrong way. As in, we look for things that are pro-town and things that are anti-town; things that are "scummy", and things that are "townie". I personally feel this is the wrong perspective and while it may work, I don't think it is the best method (although I do find it the "easiest" method.) Think about this for a second: how often does a townie think very carefully before they post. Now, how often does a mafioso think very carefully before they post? Regardless of your answer to the first question, I think that most of us would agree that mafia tend to be more cautious than town, simply because there is more at stake for mafiosos compared to townies.

So, what does this mean in terms of actual gameplay? It means all those "scumtells" that are listed on the wiki are not scumtells at all. If anything, they should be classified as "derp!tells". Also, how often has a scumtell actually worked in practice (esp. recently)? I think the answer to that is almost never--scum are aware of the classical scumtells, esp. those documented on the wiki, and actively avoid committing them. On the other hand, I feel like most townies are not focusing on how they are being read when they post. They are simply presenting their perspective regardless of what everyone else thinks. And thus, sometimes (or even frequently), townies will misinterpret something, miss something important, or otherwise accidentally commit one of those "scumtells". And if people are scumhunting by what is "scummy" and what is "townie", that townie is bound to get slammed for expressing their perspective, their opinion.

I think the better way to scumhunt is to try to look at the underlying perspective expressed in every post. I also think that everyone should be aware of mastin2/mastina's wiki article on balancing probabilities versus possibilities. (If the link doesn't work, try searching for it; it shouldn't be hard to find.) Almost everything is

possible

for scum to do, but it isn't necessarily true that it is probable, and as mastina explains in the article, town should be focusing on what is probable much more than on what is possible.

In post 480, nancy wrote:

In post 474, Scioness Sajj wrote:My point in 'Plus...' paragraph is that generally Harambey has been displaying surface level pro-town attitude but was to concern with his safety there to see an opportunity to actually do something pro-town.

Sorry, this is a little hard to read/understand. Are you saying you think it's scummy that harambey didn't discuss his wagon?

Also, are you saying you think harambey was being superficially pro-town but wasn't actually doing anything pro-town while he was in the game? If yes, what do you look for when evaluating whether something is pro-town or not? Because where I'm up to he's talking a bunch about his reads and how he's looking at the game and trying to talk with people and get them interested and I don't really think there's much better pro-town behavior than that?

Hope I'm not butting in.

In post 506, nancy wrote:@Scioness I quickly skimmed your ISO looking for reads because you said earlier that you're most interested in keeping your townreads alive. You haven't talked about why Draynth is your strongest townread here, I find that very strange? Why are you townreading him and what do you think about my earlier posts about him? Where is your headspace at re: Ircher? Are you still townreading him?

Spoiler:

In post 376, Scioness Sajj wrote:ugh, i'm tired. sorry TheRampage I will get back to you tomorrow.

I have read everything, read list as of the post I have repped in:

{ofrhz slot, Draynth}
{VL}
{ircher}
{null}
{Nachomamma, NSG}
{TheRampage,}
{Harambey slot}

As much as I'm happy with my catch up this mostly a rl based on pings and impressions. Draynth is my strongest townread, ofrhz is a little lower but I didn't want to add another tier. The one below null tier is as much of a light sr as it is me being impressed with both players, I guess, more below.

vulcan - it was easy for me to understand his thoughts, but I don't like 260 so I will probably be back to this slot.
ircher - seems like upset/frustrated town tbh, some of his posts are ??? but none of them really strike me as scummy.
Nachomamma - idk, his posts pre Harambey's call to readlists seemed like a standard IC work to me, maybe i'm just wary of him, but those few first pages are overshadowing later posts. i only really like his read on vulcan it was iirc.
NSG - a ghost slot, probably the only slot I'd policy if she keeps not contributing.
therampage - mostly read on the previous player in this slot.
Harambey - the majority of his posts ping me the wrong way. I feel like the only reason for me to town read this slot would be his effort to keep the game alive.

Those are thoughts from on top of my head, i will explain more in-depth tomorrow if needed.

In post 507, nancy wrote:You didn't talk about why ofrhz/teacher is town either, which I don't understand at all. If you care most about your townreads at this stage then why haven't you talked about your two strongest ones?

In post 522, Scioness Sajj wrote:you've forgot to vote me i think?

In post 522, Scioness Sajj wrote:have 367 bothered you before or after you have made your readlist? if before then why would you even make a readlist in the first place if you have no idea what's happening around you?

In post 522, Scioness Sajj wrote:honestly, i don't want to use activity/time as an argument in this game especially, but it is pretty hard talking to you. there is no way knowing what you have read and what you haven't. i thoguht it would be reasonable of me to expect that you have read everything that's been posted since you have replaced in but it's not. i feel like talking to you requires me to do all the work for you and i don't think that repeating the content is doing the game any favors.
meh, i guess the way you are catching up doesn't mash up well with how little time we have.

In post 523, TheRampage wrote:My read and vote on Ircher is because of how he has voted. He has been very inconsistent and has basically been the boy who cried wolf the entire game. To me he has drawn a lot of attention to himself. I feel like he is scum trying to portray that he is just playing as a very bad townie. He was one of my top scum reads while I was voting teacher and his predecessor; but because I had misread some of the original players comments, I felt like I had a very good read on him and wanted to lynch him first. Now that I feel my read was wrong because it was based off of my misreading said comments, I feel like Ircher is the next best bet for scum. Like, I feel that if I were to take my vote off and some one else vote for him, his vote would switch to that person. He has been very vocal and spread accusations to several players to try and see if he can't get a wagon going to save his own ass. And now that he is at L-2, he is going crazy overboard trying to defend himself. He says my logic for voting him is flawed, but he never even explains why he votes for who he votes. He acts as if we should never question him because he is town. Well, personally, I don't think he is. I think he is scum that is squirming because he was way too active and got caught, and now he is trying to break free and get to night.

In post 505, nancy wrote:@Ircher did you not have time to respond to these?

In post 489, nancy wrote:

In post 202, Ircher wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I still got my eye on Harambe though. Perhaps he clammed up when the wagon gained momentum.

I can see scum!Harambe being like "Oh shit! They took me to L-1 already!" And not knowing what to say.

But we can

always wagon him later if need be

. For now, let's examine Ircher.

First of all, Harambey is an SE meaning they are experienced. Even if you disagree with their initial defense for not speaking, his later posts

clearly

show that he is a competent player. What I mean by this is that the probability that scum!Harambey reacts in the way they did (and are unsure of what to do) is next to zero. It is perhaps about as unrealistic as my expectations regarding your read on crepppy, so I guess it isn't necesssarily impossible.

I'm confused, it looks like you're arguing that harambey is town but you aren't townreading him very strongly?

Nancy wrote:

In post 493, nancy wrote:

In post 202, Ircher wrote:14. In 107:

Vulcan wrote:There are two ways to interpret my earlier statements. As you have done, putting all sorts of motives in where there are none -OR- as someone who is pretty much clueless, moving his votes around because he has NO INFORMATION to go on.

I am just going to point out that mafia is hardly a black-and-white game, and that there is almost certainly more ways than the two you suggested to interpret your earlier statements.

Could you talk about what you think those other ways are and why you don't think they're the world we are in?

In post 487, nancy wrote:

Vote: Draynth

I don't have the time or energy to go into this read in depth right now but I mostly don't feel like the slot is interested in being present and solving/pushing the game anywhere and I don't really think his reads are believable. He's had very little to say about any of the more significant things that have been happening this game and feels very comfortable not doing things.

In post 494, nancy wrote:

In post 220, Draynth wrote:UNVOTE: Ventriloquist
People don't really seem interested in this and given there's like

3 days left

I should be on a wagon more people are ok with I think,

VOTE: Vulcan Logician

That's L-2

If anyone doesn't want vulcan lynched, can you please explain why?

I don't think I can read this post and understand it at all as coming from town. I don't think it makes sense that he would abandon a wagon simply because people didn't agree with his scumread, especially when it wasn't a weak read and when he hasn't really talked about that read or tried to convince anyone of it. I think if he were town then his push on Ventriloquist would have looked very differently. I don't think there was even a real push there at all.

Nancy wrote:I also think voting someone just because other players are more okay with it is a thought process that [does not] makes any sense at all from town but makes a lot of sense from mafia.

Nancy wrote:Draynth has also not put forward any reasoning for why vulcan is mafia here or why he wants to lynch the slot. His only interaction with the wagon here is to ask if anyone doesn't want to lynch vulcan, which just ends up looking to me like a way to seem like he's interested in evaluating vulcan's alignment without actually doing anything to evaluate it.

I don't think the way that he's voted here without talking about anything that's been going on with vulcan and the discussion around the slot makes sense if he's town and I don't think the way he pulls off ventriloquist makes sense if he's town either.

In post 504, nancy wrote:People voting Ircher should talk about their read there and why they think he is mafia, anyone not voting him should talk about why they aren't as well.

Ircher what is your read on Draynth right now and do you think anything about what I have posted about him?

@Nacho I think you really need to prioritize talking about your nsg read because Ircher is the leading wagon, I'm the counterwagon, there's basically no discussion around either wagon, you're townreading both of us and your scumreads aren't being wagoned in any meaningful way right now, so this is a pretty stinky gamestate. Whenever you have time please focus on this?

In post 533, Scioness Sajj wrote:

In post 507, nancy wrote:You didn't talk about why ofrhz/teacher is town either, which I don't understand at all. If you care most about your townreads at this stage then why haven't you talked about your two strongest ones?

i did. i have talked about ofrhz with Nacho. have you seen that in my iso, or do you want me to get you post numbers?

In post 498, teacher wrote:I genuinely dont know how to read your style. You have jumped down multiple slots with posts like this, that have at least ten questions, but you havent really offered much yourself (explaining that you havent caught up or are still on page 2). I get that this is the way you hunt, but keep in mind everyone else has to be hunting and we need to sort you. Indeed, this is one point Im inclined to agree with Ircher on - it seems like you ask these questions in order to scorn the answers, as you did with Ircher, Scioness, and are likely to do with me.

In post 523, TheRampage wrote:My read and vote on Ircher is because of how he has voted. He has been very inconsistent and has basically been the boy who cried wolf the entire game. To me he has drawn a lot of attention to himself. I feel like he is scum trying to portray that he is just playing as a very bad townie. He was one of my top scum reads while I was voting teacher and his predecessor; but because I had misread some of the original players comments, I felt like I had a very good read on him and wanted to lynch him first. Now that I feel my read was wrong because it was based off of my misreading said comments, I feel like Ircher is the next best bet for scum. Like, I feel that if I were to take my vote off and some one else vote for him, his vote would switch to that person. He has been very vocal and spread accusations to several players to try and see if he can't get a wagon going to save his own ass. And now that he is at L-2, he is going crazy overboard trying to defend himself. He says my logic for voting him is flawed, but he never even explains why he votes for who he votes. He acts as if we should never question him because he is town. Well, personally, I don't think he is. I think he is scum that is squirming because he was way too active and got caught, and now he is trying to break free and get to night.

In post 524, vulcan logician wrote:I don't know how to take your no lynch vote.

In post 500, Ircher wrote:

In post 482, TheRampage wrote:Okay, so I just got done rereading this whole damn day 1, and I think that after reading through carefully, I am going to

UNVOTE

My reasoning is that I feel like I misread some of the posts from early and interpreted them in a way that was no conducive to how they were meant. Now, also with rereading all these posts, I feel like Ircher is our best bet for this Day 1 lynch.

I went back and watched him

flip and flop from one bandwagon to another

throughout

this

whole day phase

. I don't think that there is a single person who he hasn't voted for as of yet.

Now, as far as my reads go, I can really only go off of feelings as I have never played with anyone in this game before. Still, here we go,

Teacher, Nacho, Scioness - Town Lean
Vulcan, Nancy - Null
Ircher, northsidegal, Draynth - Scum Lean

As far as northside and Draynth go, I would have to go back and quote some posts that rubbed me the wrong way, but I am okay with moving past them today and going with

VOTE: Ircher

While I am sure you probably have more reasons than simply voting patterns, it seems a huge majority of your read on me seems to be based upon it, which is an issue because your reasoning about watching me "flip and flop from one bandwagon to another" is extremely flawed and objectively (and thus provably) false.

So, let's go through my votes:

Post 16: Ircher wrote:Ugh... VOTE: Vulcan

First and foremost, the only other person voting Vulcan at this point is Crepppy. Furthermore, I did give a reasoning in 15 regarding my vote. Thus, one can clearly see that this vote is by no means me joining a Vulcan bandwagon; if I wanted to join a bandwagon, I would be voting Harambey, not Vulcan. Whether or not you agree with the reasoning is an entirely different matter that is irrelevant to the point I am making here.

Post 82: Ircher wrote:A Draynth wagon would be worthwhile imo. Not a lot of content and what I consider a somewhat suspicious leap onto my wagon. (Granted, the reasoning is somewhat valid, just not necessarily “fair”.
VOTE: Draynth

Again, how can you consider this a bandwagon vote when no one else is voting Draynth at the time. (See 79). Furthermore, I gave reasons for my vote in the post itself showing that the vote isn't purely me voting a random person. Finally, this vote was in response to Harambey's request that we pressure someone that hasn't been active lately. (Also see 89.)

Post 97: Ircher wrote:VOTE: Vulcan
Actually, I really prefer this currently (in light of what I said earlier). Partially because the game state seems to have gotten a standstill plus my vote on Draynth wasn't really accomplishing anything.

This is me basically returning to my earlier scumread that I was voting before 82 (i.e.: Vulcan) after other people point out that Vulcan and Draynth had done about the same. Now explain to me how your argument so far is in any way true.

Post 267: Ircher wrote:VOTE: Vulcan
Tbqh, I think we really just need a flip at this point. I don't think we are going to have much more discussion this day.

I'm already voting Vulcan at this point; there is absolutely no reason why you could even consider this vote to be me bandwagoning Vulcan when my vote is already there.

Post 278: Ircher wrote:VOTE: NSG

I explained this vote, and no one was voting North as of 250 (and no one voted North in the time between that VC and my vote), so again, how is this me "flip-flopping from one bandwagon to the next"? Also, you said I did that throughout the entire day phase, but for the majority of the day phase (as in like 80% of it), I've been voting Vulcan, so........

Post 289: Ircher wrote:VOTE: No Lynch

I didn't explain this vote, but if you consider this vote to be a bandwagon vote, there is something seriously wrong.

Post 321: Ircher wrote:VOTE: Teacher

Okay, so Teacher was at 2 votes before this vote (see 300), but I still think your argument has no basis in facts here. I did later explain that this basically amounted to an OMGUS vote; however, I didn't explain that immediately. Still, I want you to explain very clearly to me how this vote fits your interpretation of my voting pattern, because I do not see the connection what so ever.

Post 339: Ircher wrote:Town Vibe:
Alciel/North --> 109
Draynth --> 175, 187, 256
Etromin --> 33, 70
Harambey/Nancy --> 35, 45, 152, 156, 313
Nacho --> 164, 165
Ventriloquist Rampage --> 270
Vulcan --> 14, 48, 105, 107, 118, 226, 234, 324

Scum Vibe:
Alciel/North --> 112
Draynth --> 51, 61
Etromin/Scion --> 13, 115, 247, 287, 292, 305
Harambey/Nancy --> 54, 131, 183, 192, 210, 236, 298
Ofrhz/Teacher --> 150, 215, 235, 263, 319
Ventriloquist/Rampage --> 126, 142, 193, 301
Vulcan --> 53, 60

VOTE: Teacher
Yes, I know I'm already voting. This time for realsies.

I'm already voting Teacher, so your point about me joining bandwagons here is irrelevant.

Post 485: Ircher wrote:VOTE: Rampage
Your statement is flawed in so many ways..... I'll explain tomorrow (when it's more convenient for me to post.... eh that means this afternoon actually)

According to 454, no one was voting Rampage before my vote. Again, explain how this constitutes "flipping and flopping from one bandwagon to another".

My vote on you is directly related to the fundamental flaws in your scumread on me, and this vote goes beyond a surface level read of that you are simply wrong in your assessment; this feels like a purposeful misrepresentation of my voting pattern which appears to me to have likely come from scum hoping for an easy lynch on me. Like, on the surface, it may not seem that unreasonable, but if you look into the actual facts, it is nothing more than a severe misrepresentation of facts meant to give me ill repute. I would reconsider my read of your post (maybe I misjudged) except for the fact that you proceed to go and post this:

Post 486: Rampage wrote: I mean, I am just saying your actions speak for themself. You have flip flopped more then a college frat boy at the beach okay.

(Alongside quoting most of my posts with vote in them.) This clearly indicates to me that either a) you are town that failed to research their case or b) (much more likely imo) scum trying to twist what is true and what is false to get someone lynched.
---
Back to my earlier ideas of town being more likely to commit mistakes than scum: this only applies if the mistake committed is genuine. In other words, the player in question misread the situation and is willing (and open) to alternative viewpoints. This is clearly not the case here as evidenced by 486. This feels like scum purposely warping the situation so as to get a mislynch through.