In post 478, insomnia wrote:My point on the clidd read was that scum wouldn't have taken that approach and even less so state the read if they couldn't associate it with something in the thread. If they couldn't explain a read, they would've abstained completely from stating it, or they wouldn't have looked for a reason such as that one to give it. That reason leaves little room for wiggle and kind of ties him to that read whereas just saying "i feel bad about your posts / you post scummy" leaves himself wiggle room.
whatever it's a good read i just don't know how to explain it i'm dumb
Thanks.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:50 am
by clidd
In post 480, Hectic wrote:You're saying scum wouldn't fake a read which they couldn't explain, right? But clidd stated a read... and explained it. I'm not sure what you mean. Also, clidd's default is having reasons like that for reads, and that is one of his good ones. But the townlocking thing and confidence there is what concerns me. I don't think it's natural to go from "unsure" to "townlock" on Wimpo on a replace out.
Also, clidd, Wimpo's replace out happened in other games too. Does it still make him a townlock?
It depends on how this chain of events took place. Anger in one game can also reflect in other games, so i will keep my ''townlock''. And yes, I am far from playing normal. Generally, games like this, with a lot of "noise" do not prompt me to look any further. Of course, this may change as the number of players is reduced.
In post 420, Luca Blight wrote:Clidd is probably Town for now just by the fact he's actively contributing.
VOTE: Insomnia
I'll try this for size.
I think insomnia is town actually.
I liked their engagement with me early game, it felt like he was genuinely trying to understand my thought process regarding my Ame read as opposed to just attacking it.
Do you enjoy your scumminess? Do you revel in it like some sort of sick fast-food worker, who despite being sick is forced to come into work anyway because they aren't offered paid sick leave and need every working hour they can get just to get by?
If Wimpy was driving a burger-mobile from the North, Aaron, electric banana skates from the South, Insomnia, a baseless read from the West, and Luca, a golden chariot
from the East
also from the West, who would you vote for?
If Wednesday?
Are you ready to join the town corpse...I mean Corps!?
1) Landed on "Hectic" as an online name more than a decade ago. I like it.
2) Absolutely. I relish being scum, and you'll often find me replacing out of games where I roll town. What's the point of playing mafia if you don't get to lie to your friends?
3) I'd vote for Ame driving in with the RQS from the East.
4) It's the horse's name?
5) I need a list of benefits first.
In post 212, Ame wrote:In your case, I did get an initial town impression from you, and having ~3 scum leans in a 2-scum game I felt comfortable enough working with that, and that if you were scum, it would show in time through your reads (i.e. if they started to radically diverge and I couldn't follow your thought process).
I had a bit of doubt from your Aaron push because Aaron seemed pretty town to me, and at the time of Wimpy's antagonizing explanation, I felt you were worth exploring.
What I thought to be a sudden change in your Aaron read was suspicious to me, but looking at you closer I saw that you did actually express those thoughts before. This made me feel a lot better and it was consistent with my thinking that town somni = similar reads. When I went to bed, my only lingering concern was your Wimpy read (I had intended to question it when I was back), and even that was addressed on its own. So, overall, yea I do TR you.
At what point in this thought process did the insomnia vote come in?
The colored part. Aaron was my only town read at the time. Insomnia was more of an impression. Wimpy's points about Insomnia not reacting to his antagonism made sense to me and I felt that avenue was worth exploring.
I don't have strong reads at the moment. Currently, from towniest to most suspicious, my impressions are something like: Clidd > dsjstr > Aaron > Insomnia > Wimpy > Hectic > Luca > Flippy
Earlier today I was feeling stronger about Luca because his interaction with me came off as less curt than I'd expect, which gave me the impression that he was treading lightly. The reasoning in #342 is also suspicious to me. Luca claims that he felt better about me by 84, but I hadn't done anything differently. I was still joking around. This reinforces my initial suspicion that his reasoning for voting me wasn't genuine and that he's only making this claim to justify his switch to Clidd. That being said, he's currently trending up from this last page, particularly from his request for Clidd to switch from Flippy, which doesn't seem a probable scum move.
Aaron is trending down for seemingly not comprehending my sarcasm, which is just weird.
I'm paranoid of Insomnia. I'm not quite sure what about my post was so townie.
djstr's approach to the flippy wagon reads town to me.
Clidd seems like he believes his reads and I like his tone.
I still think Wimpy could have been emulating his tunnel. If he really felt the way he did, I'll be disappointed. This is another reason why I'm wary of Insomnia, for ~clearing Wimpy in 364 and 375. I think it's very possible Wimpy was mimicking the type of behavior he is town read for. That being said, I do think he's more likely town than not.
I don't feel one way or the other about Hectic. He's only on the lower end because of how I feel about those above. I did have a hypothesis that only scum would take the time to answer my opening questions, but I'm not going to use that against him. If he does flip scum, however, I'm definitely going to use this for a future game :3
Thanks, I believe that the authenticity of your posts was what motivated me to increase your position on my list.
As town, he's very analytical and has good fleshed-out reasons for sorting people, but I'm not seeing the same thing in how he's townlocking Wimpy/Luca here. The reasons given there don't warrant a townlock. Not 100% I saw this, but why are you townreading him, AaronFF?
In post 312, clidd wrote:Because he wouldn't say this as scum. We played a game together, and he's acting the same way (he was town that game).
Best way to play as scum is to play how you would as town
Do you know the player TSE ? (TrueSoulEnergy) I am feeling something similar with your playstyle (scum indicative).
I like this post, not sure this PoV comes from mafia either. Feeling as though scum would just deliberately choose to push someone for their in-game content rather than just choose to compare them to another player's style, I have yet to see wolves take this approach, surprisingly. it's like trying to justify a gut feeling, all the while not being able to properly put the finger on the "why", so they choose to do it by comparing it to another player, whereas scum wouldn't even bother to make such points, hope that makes some sense.
@Hectic, what do you think about this point?
It's interesting. + point for clidd since I can see the logic where scum are less likely to have a nuanced thought process where they start comparing scummy behaviour to players they've played with before which have scummy playstyles.
Still don't like clidd overall though, like him putting me in the Unsure category for "PoE" alone is also something I'm not used to. His reasons for sorting seem a lot less substantial than his town-game.
I don't like using PoE as a justification, but given the circumstances, I believe it was the best option. I am not so excited to consider more elaborate speculations at the moment.
As town, he's very analytical and has good fleshed-out reasons for sorting people, but I'm not seeing the same thing in how he's townlocking Wimpy/Luca here. The reasons given there don't warrant a townlock. Not 100% I saw this, but why are you townreading him, AaronFF?
I'm not really? I don't have a strong read on clidd one way or the other. Where did I mention I was townreading him?
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:48 pm
by AaronFrost
In post 463, insomnia wrote:well tbf in there i was scum reading billy and not you, you just so happened to replace in that slot and couldn't town tell, so i say that's a really bad pocketing attempt, don't appeal to my emotions as it's not gonna work
Would you mind linking that game for reference?
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:50 pm
by Luca Blight
Frost, you seem to be cautious and asking passive questions. Did you role scum again?
In post 480, Hectic wrote:You're saying scum wouldn't fake a read which they couldn't explain, right? But clidd stated a read... and explained it. I'm not sure what you mean. Also, clidd's default is having reasons like that for reads, and that is one of his good ones. But the townlocking thing and confidence there is what concerns me. I don't think it's natural to go from "unsure" to "townlock" on Wimpo on a replace out.
Also, clidd, Wimpo's replace out happened in other games too. Does it still make him a townlock?
Do you think this points to a clidd/Wimpy!slot scumteam? Because if cliddscum and Wimpytown, then what reason does cliddscum have to display such a strong townread on someone who's town when they could've taken advantage of Wimpy's aggressive and anti town behavior.
PEDIT: Nope, I don't really think I've been passive or cautious either? I'm also at a point where I'm reevaluating my reads.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:01 pm
by AaronFrost
I will say that I'm not used to flippy nips posting this much, most of the games I've played with him he usually lurks and ends up mislynched.
Does that make putting effort into his posts scum indicative for him? Gonna ISO him.
Still like my insomnia read.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:07 pm
by Luca Blight
Ngl, I've disliked the 'feel' of most of your recent posts. It seems as though you're coasting on the TR's you received early on, and are generally fence-sitting or asking passive questions to look busy:
I don't like their Wimpy read either, feels fabricated and not genuine at all. Their switch of opinion on you was pretty bad too.
Unless this is some wild case of bussing, I'm gonna say that Wimpy/Ame are never scum together here. Ame's forced read on Wimpy + Wimpy being content to deathtunnel Ame feels like a farfetch'd interaction for scum mates to have on Day 1.
can you link me to the games where clidd replaced out as scum? I do want more from that slot so hopefully they either post some reads soon or get replaced.
In post 386, AaronFrost wrote:Ame's page 9 was pretty good actually but I'm not willing to slap a townread there just yet. Even scum who get heat early can obvtown to take the pressure off of them.
In post 312, clidd wrote:Because he wouldn't say this as scum. We played a game together, and he's acting the same way (he was town that game).
Don't you think that scum!Luca would try to emulate his towngame as much as possible?
I don't have much meta with scum Luca, the one scum game I did play with him he replaced out of so not much to go on there.
In post 388, AaronFrost wrote:I'm at a problem where I have no idea how to read Wimpy's deathtunnel of Ame. Like there's a part of me that thinks that that kind of behavior almost never comes from scum, but I think the way he's going about it is also objectively anti-town.
In post 326, Luca Blight wrote:Hectic, unvote Flips please. I want to catch up without worrying about a lolhammer.
This guy is extremely locktown, I hope you see that too.
This is a bad post to locktown someone off of, scum can easily say things like that to get towncred (I've seen them do it quite a bit too). Not accusing Luca of anything, just throwing that out there.
In post 463, insomnia wrote:well tbf in there i was scum reading billy and not you, you just so happened to replace in that slot and couldn't town tell, so i say that's a really bad pocketing attempt, don't appeal to my emotions as it's not gonna work
Would you mind linking that game for reference?
Regarding 218, I don't like how, when asked about your read on Ame (who is the only player you've pushed so far) you basically just conclude that she and Wimpy aren't scum together, which is a really safe and obvious conclusion to make. You don't really commit to either maintaining your SR or reconsidering it.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:12 pm
by Luca Blight
386 - it seems like you feel the need to acknowledge a change in read on Ame as others have done, but again want to keep the option of voting her open if need be, so just fence-sit in a pretty meaningless way. It feels like it's for show rather than actually accomplishing anything,
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:13 pm
by AaronFrost
nippleflips
The progression from 71 to 107 felt off. I explained why this was off earlier and I don't feel like repeating myself so go look in my ISO if you want my opinion on it.
230 kind of implies that he's actively looking for pushes (he said "Ame was the only one worth pushing") instead of trying to sort it himself or give his own perspective on it.
461 is pretty jarring with the knowledge that he replaced into a slot that insomnia was already scumreading in the referenced game
Nothing else in flips's ISO stands out to me honestly. This definitely doesn't feel like town/lurky/disengaged flippy nips though.
@insomnia
given that you and flippy nips were both town in good jams, are you noticing any traits other than activity that feel different from that game?
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:18 pm
by AaronFrost
In post 539, Luca Blight wrote:Regarding 218, I don't like how, when asked about your read on Ame (who is the only player you've pushed so far) you basically just conclude that she and Wimpy aren't scum together, which is a really safe and obvious conclusion to make. You don't really commit to either maintaining your SR or reconsidering it.
If I'll be honest, when things get toxic between two players, I have a hard time differentiating alignments from it but from what I usually see they're never s/s.
I don't get your point about my Ame read. I did reconsider it back when I said that Ame's page 9 was good and while her town equity was rising I'm also well aware scum would do everything in that situation to get themselves townread (or at least try to).
Do you any actual thoughts to contribute? I can't remember a single thing you've done in this game so far.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:24 pm
by Luca Blight
And you can appreciate that, fmpov, it looks as though you're posturing?
It seems as though you need the thread to know you're being considered over Ame, even though essentially you've provided nothing new whatsoever. It doesn't seem natural to me, and neither does a number of your other posts in which fence-sit, such as 387, 389.
It's the way you're casting doubt over a read (which isn't necessarily bad) but then hastily adding you don't necessarily SR that player. It feels cautious and more likely to come from scum.
Basically, you're being TR and, if you're scum, have something to hold onto, which ties in with my view that you're playing more cautiously than you were in the early game.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:26 pm
by Luca Blight
To finish off the thought from the last line - you are playing more cautiously because you fear losing your TR's, which is causing your play to become stilted.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:33 pm
by AaronFrost
In post 544, Luca Blight wrote:And you can appreciate that, fmpov, it looks as though you're posturing?
It seems as though you need the thread to know you're being considered over Ame, even though essentially you've provided nothing new whatsoever. It doesn't seem natural to me, and neither does a number of your other posts in which fence-sit, such as 387, 389.
It's the way you're casting doubt over a read (which isn't necessarily bad) but then hastily adding you don't necessarily SR that player. It feels cautious and more likely to come from scum.
Basically, you're being TR and, if you're scum, have something to hold onto, which ties in with my view that you're playing more cautiously than you were in the early game.
I wanted to poke clidd about his reasons for 'locktowning' you, not because of my own reads, but because I think the reasons he townreads you for are way too hasty. Saying 'scum would never say this' then they would and have and a weak meta case of 'he played like this as town so therefore Luca = town' feels like a rushed and fabricated thought processes. My own read on you is irrelevant to those posts.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:37 pm
by Luca Blight
I don't like the
'just throwing it out there'
- It doesn't feel like you were trying to sort Clidd with that post or your follow-up posts, which is the only Town explanation for questioning it.
Hectic, for example, questioned it in a way where he was sorting Clidd's alignment, which provides a possible Town motive. I don't see any town motive behind your posts.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:37 pm
by AaronFrost
Actually I'm more surprised that you haven't brought it up yourself and just kind of accepted the weaksauce townread on you with little justification.
420 - "Clidd is probably town for now just by the fact that he's actively contributing"
do you actually believe that? Walk me through that read a little more.
Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:40 pm
by Luca Blight
I did bring it up myself, have you not been reading my posts?
In post 352, Luca Blight wrote:250 - I don't really get why Clidd has me as lock town for the posts he linked. Why would you TR someone for common sense?
And how is the post below common sense or even town-indicative?
In post 67, Luca Blight wrote:Welcome dsjstr, but damn I’m disappointed creative left. Was looking forward to playing with them.
420 is related to my initial reason for SR'ing him - he hates playing as scum but is actively contributing here. He can have a pass for now.
