This more comes down to my general mafia theory that people who are annoyed are > rand town while people who get mad are > rand scum. This is generally not always true so I never really explain this to people since there is 101 examples of mad town but honestly I find annoyed town is something that is relatively hard to find, and even then it sits on the line of someone who is mad. Which could come down to how I think people tend to react while trying to brainstorm vs trying to fool people. Idk, nor do I care about other peoples opinions on this because wording how I feel about the nuance of peoples emotions is incredibly hard.
is this a rolleyes because you think you got a nonanswer here (the answer made sense to me)
or is it a rolleyes because you think you should be higher?
nonanswer,
I agree with like, whoever it was that said I haven’t been particularly towny yet
I’m gonna let ydrasse do the obvtowning for our slot probably
meanwhile in cogdis land (that i expect to get picked apart semantically for mentioning)
nice pre-emptive shade!
My not thinking it makes sense that I should be townread in general =/= I don’t think nacho shouldn’t be townreading me more and find it kinda weird he isn’t given that I’ve been on a similar trajectory to him but also, importantly, have gotten there on some things before him (like voting leafy). Given that I can’t just be sheeping him bc of that, I find it weird that someone who’s coming to the game from a v similar viewpoint in many ways, he doesn’t see as town
This more comes down to my general mafia theory that people who are annoyed are > rand town while people who get mad are > rand scum. This is generally not always true so I never really explain this to people since there is 101 examples of mad town but honestly I find annoyed town is something that is relatively hard to find, and even then it sits on the line of someone who is mad. Which could come down to how I think people tend to react while trying to brainstorm vs trying to fool people. Idk, nor do I care about other peoples opinions on this because wording how I feel about the nuance of peoples emotions is incredibly hard.
~Glaceon
This is interesting, it might speak to a difference between being annoyed but feeling justified in that and being annoyed (mad) but knowing you're wrong and you have to keep arguing because you're scum. I wonder if that's why I try to stick to things I believe even as scum, channeling that "mad" energy is hard for me
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 am
by Infinity 324
@beeboy I know you just said you don't like readslists but scum are gonna figure out who I SR anyway, and I think this is important
{bulge, DC, NM, mom, nacho, cakez}
@bork, skitt Who do you think is most likely scum outside this pool?
In post 27, Venus Fly Trap wrote:but it's the first thing i saw that could potentially be worth a real vote
i'm not trying to get to strength of conviction here, i'm more just asking "if this is a scum play, what is nacho actually trying to do w/ it" because at first glance it just seems like something you don't understand or agree with
In post 37, Venus Fly Trap wrote:trying to get an easy flip without too much discussion if possible to get to night faster
ultimately i think this take is reasonable.
My issue is that it's a bit overly simplistic/naive (how we get from Nacho's singular vote to a D1 elim (with the assumption that that's what he's even trying to do here) on N_M w/o further action on Nacho's part is something I have trouble believing would actually happen)
I'm not going to overreact about it due to where it happened in the game (p1) and what you were upgrading from (rvs) and i think that fact is important to consider for overall Trajectory
This is a good push, being skeptical of skitt for not considering scum motivation makes a lot of sense.
In post 117, Kismet wrote:In my heart of hearts I want to believe that Infinity, VFT and I have all found each other early; Infinity is probably the closest thing I have to a proper townread atm, and I generally like how skitter is approaching the nacho read overall.
I'm not willing to sell Nacho down the river at this point; I don't like the angle he's chosen to open with but I don't think it has a lot of staying power as a place to sit on a mislim. It's possible that 101 is happening I guess but like I'm never gonna get to that w/o n_m at least showing up for the game. I have a tendency to scumread nacho early from days of yore, but the stuff w/ Salsa is giving me a little pause in that he's possibly trying to latch on to the tonal things he things he can read in some of the people reacting to what he's doing, and you can see that w/ Salsa here.
very eager to see how noddy/bulge resolve themselves; both chose to kind of signal each other in their first posts and I'm curious to see where that goes.
I have some thoughts on Mena but I think it's too early in the game to really do much w/ it yet based on the content I've seen from that slot.
I like the vote on L&G and am going to go there too; mostly just cause I wanna be somewhere, iso is pretty vapid, and the phrasing of 109 just irks me vs a more reasonable "who are you scumreading atm" VOTE: L&G
Good takes, often "here's how I'm looking at the game"/readslist posts can look performative from scum but this one isn't at all
In post 210, Nachomamma8 wrote:My experience is that Not Mafia tends to lurk a lot, doesn't tend to scumhunt nor contribute in a significant way to the point where he basically doesn't play the game.
Nacho,
people generally 'get' this part of your point, and either agree or are at least sympathetic to it although this is a ymmv experience from game to game
i think at least where you're losing me is that you seem to be saying that scum getting the opportunity to safehouse (i'm going to use this term to refer to a scum reverse nk) n_m is like a huge value play for them, to the point that we need to scorched earth the shit out of that slot to ensure that they don't have the opportunity to do this, even if he is town.
and i just don't understand the significance of that play in particular. if he's town and we mislim him we're down 1-0, same as mislimming anyone else. and yes, in the 'anyone else' case, scum now has the opportunity to safehouse n_m. why is it such a +++scum move to do that? i think if you can elaborate on that we might get to a spot of more mutual understanding
Trying to come to a mutual understanding on this when there isn't really much scum motivation to do so. Could be to look "reasonable", but most people would probably think continuing to argue what you believe or just move on are reasonable as well.
In post 249, Disaster Cartel wrote:only that’s not what happened? I wanted to know why skitt was TRing you bc you’re evidently experienced but I have no idea what your scumgame is like from a range of like FL to kerset
I singled you out bc u were the only one I didn’t get from skitt’s pov (infinity isn’t town either yet, but skitt generally slaps a read on her earlier than I will)
And like yeh, no shit I haven’t tried reading u yet, hence why i was surprised to see skitt professing a TR on a v unknown quality in a game where there’s like, reasonable incentive for scum to TR each other
i'm aware i'm spinning this a bit because i think that might be the potential reason for scum to approach from that angle.
i wasn't really considering the point of you trying to force skitter to legitimize her read on me, and that's fair.
overall, i have a decent amount of content out there and i guess i am expecting at least some engagement on it though, but if your primary focus is on skitter at this point in time rather than me with that progression, that really does change my interpretation of your trajectory and i don't mind it as much.
Scum can often mess up when to back up on pushes like this, and this felt natural
In post 342, Kismet wrote:I don't generally consider that to be a scum correlative behavior really
for me i'm more just trying to see the evolution of the nacho stance
i feel like being able to vote does make a difference as this was not really an action open to him in that game but ok, i acknowledge your interpretation of nacho's demeanor toward you
i'm still trying to make up my mind and trying to see where your head is overall; attitudewise stuff like 337 i can see coming from frustrated town which is why i engaged
The tone of this has a "sorry I was harsh earlier" quality to it that I think would manifest itself very differently (defensively?) as scum.
This is just from the beginning of the game, I could keep going (I liked him TRing me for TRing eeveelutions) but this is enough to justify my read for now
I'll do skitt in a bit
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:46 am
by Leafeon and Glaceon
hey DC can you answer my question
~leaf
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 am
by Kismet
In post 524, Disaster Cartel wrote:that’s not my point, my point is that you apparently had no problem with there not being an explanation tacked onto every read when nacho did it but when I did it needed to be pointed out
cause and effect. i don't care about whether the readlists have explanations inline, i was showing that i look at it and i don't have really any idea why most of those are where they are, because you haven't been doing anything that i see that is leading you to those conclusions.
that isn't how i feel about nacho, but let's also not make this about nacho, please. i'll sort nacho as the opportunity presents itself, i have vectors/reads to engage him on (as i now do for you as well, but your progression on me so far is the most suspect thing in that list so here we are), and i hate the "whataboutism" you're exhibiting with the assumption that i have no issues with what nacho is doing, something that i feel is not justifiably extracted from my play, as a vehicle to make my issues with you seem less reasonable.
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:18 am
by Infinity 324
I'm having a hard time articulating what I like about skitt beyond what I already have. Somehow I feel like her notsci read in 303 and her bork read in 479 would look different. She's also mindmelding with me on nacho
-- conflicted, likely high level of variance w/ several rereads by me / events in game due to activity level
cakez
nacho
-- conflicted, unlikely to vary much unless activity level improves
l&g
-- major issues
dc
----------
---------- not on the same axis
-- no real read
not_mafia
mara
salsa
bulge
i obviously want to get more people above that line and at least out of the "no real read" group. I'm taking points on salsa under advisement - i've never experienced her as town before -- but i think what i said early applies - the bar is too low for me to feel comfortable with.
Wrt Infinity am not surprised because he just seems to be stuck in tunnel mode.
Wrt skitter I'm still waiting for your scumread to evolve past its premise.
well, i mean, maybe don't have bad tone? i'm not really sure the problem is with me when two different people said the same thing now
also my read *has* evolved (namely, i think your interactions with cakez are awful), thank you
this whole post is like trying to handwave away criticism while you yourself are acknowledging a few posts up that this isn't the way you typically play as town so like
~
In post 345, Nachomamma8 wrote:You don't get to play with nice Nacho after you drove me to wanting to gouge my eyeballs out with a McFlurry spoon in Popcorn Mafia. I will not be putting myself through that hell again, and if you want to play the same game that you played with us last time, I won't be only person having a bad time.
this is kinda what i mean by 'icky' tone. tbf i wasn't in that game and don't know what beef you two have but this only makes sense as town to me if you have, like, some sort of major grudge against him to the point where you're still mad however many months later and his every post you just loathe and insta-scumread
which idk tbf i don't really know you either so for all i know this isn't abnormal but like from what i hear i'm having a hard time seeing you approach him that way as town
like here at least i dont' think he's done anything to deserve this level of animus so this whole post has this like prickly/aggressive edge which doesn't really match what's actually happened in this game, it looks like you're picking a fight almost and idk why.
~
In post 349, Nachomamma8 wrote:But instead, when I pushed for his death, there was Mena and no one else.
Which seems to increase chances of there being scum in {me, Not_Mafia}, no?
I'm not scum trying to get the easy flip because I tried to policy lynch him from page one. I've been around long enough to realize that policy lynching doesn't typically work.
right ... and i'm arguing that you're scum here
wrt the second line i'm not sure if you're trying to say 'i didn't try to get a policy flip on him (and that's something scum would do) so i'm not scum' or 'scum don't try to get policy flips and i did so i'm not scum'
but for the former it did read like you were trying to get a policy flip on him. with a whole lotta mechanical reasonign, sure, but that's fundmentally what it boiled down to
and for the latter scum try that all the time
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:26 pm
by Venus Fly Trap
In post 348, Nachomamma8 wrote:You and Skitter both keep pretending like all I am interested in today is policying Not Mafia or bust.
also you've moved beyond thta, sure, when that didn't really work out, but you were plugging it p hard at the beginning, and doubled down when people initially objected so
Do you mean why am I not trying to read you or something else?
-Mena
feels like you're neither trying to sort me nor engage with me and i feel like u should be
~ skitter
Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:28 pm
by Nachomamma8
Can you show me one instance of scum recently pushing a policy lynch? I haven't seen it in a while but I also haven't been active in a while so maybe my experience is a bit skewed.
And this is probably town indicative for er but eh
Pretty sure e can be mad as scum too, just maybe less likely
I can compromise on PP but not my fav choice, like,
PP would always play like this regardless of align and he feels like being lhf-ed ever since suji
, but in retrospect i guess the original wagon in suji (luca day norw pooky) wasn't so bad either
SS is funny bc literally the only vote he ever received is his own
ok tbf this is the closest example i can find in my recnet games - fark's argumnt was basically that penguin was lowhanging fruit who wasn't playing (and wouldn't be playing as either alignment) and that's what he kept using to push penguin. he didn't literally call it a policy-lim but his reasoning basically boiled down to him being unreadable and lhf so why not
fark was scum and penguin was town (who got flipped that day)
this was my most recent completed towngame i think, from like a few weeks ago
and i dont' see many other examples recently so fair enuf, you have a point in that it's not super common, but even so that doesn't make the push good
and i'm kinda more interested in the tone/cakez stuff now