Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Jahudo]

@Guardian:

I remarked that I saw him as hedging... I think it was from when he asked people's opinions about me-Incog before he expressed his own opinion.

Is hedging “asking people’s opinions before expression own opinion”? I was not doing that when you first entered the game: post 337
In post 317 you felt people were not expressing their own opinion on you-Incog so what have you seen from others that differs?

Can you address this? Also, how do you think this compares, if at all, to Incog asking people’s opinions on Skillit before he expressed his own?

Jahudo, why do you think your explanation is more likely than the explanation that I wanted to keep a list of stuff to do public so I remembered and moreover y'all would hold me to it?

I can understand having a list for those reasons. I am wary, however, that it could be an advantageous strategy to scum when there are a number of people that I feel are not caught up in this game and can be easily misled.

Why is "directing conversation" or "being biased" or "having an influence" scummy?

Not by definition, but having an influence to intentionally mislead can happen when new pages are made faster than new players can read the old pages.

What does "being biased" mean in mafia, other than that I am biased against those not of my alignment??

Biased = scum intentionally misrepresenting things for people who have not read for themselves and might not know there are being misled. But this is a unease I feel about RandomGem and Mana_Ku more than you.

Things to do:
1. Try to understand the case against eldarad.
2. Not have this list used against me.

[Incognito]

unboost
boost: sthar8

more some other day.

[Raging Rabbit]

eldarad's attack on iLord is definitely crap logic, but that alone isn't indicative of much, town is perfectly capable of bad logic as well. Guardian has a point about his early attack on Skillit being not-that-convincing, but so are more or less all early game attacks. I skimmed his other posts and am having trouble making up my mind on him one way or the other, my earlier town lean doesn't stand but he doesn't seem very scummy either. I don't think he should be the lynch today.

Jahudo has indeed steered clear of trouble, in a manner that gives me a "careful scum" vibe, and his boost on me isn't well reasoned - activity and "focus" alone mean little - and can easily be buddying up.

FOS: Jahudo

for now, I still think incog is the better lynch.

sthar isn't my first boost choice, but he does seem pro town and we could certainly do worse. Since everyone's essentially decided on him, I see no reason to keep this pending.

Unboost, boost sthar

.

[eldarad]

Come on - you're just twisitng my words. My rankings are not as rigid as they appear, only around the center - the extremes at the ends are as defined as anyone elses.

I'm not twisting your words. If your order is not precise, but only the category is meaningful, then switching votes or boosts between people in the same category is pointless.

If you are saying that, actually, it is only the middle bit that is vague, and the town and scum categories are ranked in order then it makes sense to change boosts between them. That wasn't my understanding of your list.
Especially since your lists have different numbers of people labelled as town and scum. That initially suggested that you DID have a ranking throughout (ie, there would be a 5th most townie person who has been classified as 'neutral'), until you said otherwise.

I didn't explain why in my colored post - I stated what I found suspicious, and a general summary of their posts.

This is exactly the point I was making:

I was operating under the reasonable assumption that the blocks of words next to the colourful words were there to explain to others what you are thinking (and why).

If they aren't there to explain your reasoning for the town/neutral/scum, what ARE they there for?
Your answer - in #515 - is "to organise your thoughts" so actually, those paragraphs next to the colourful words are NOT justifying that person's inclusion in your list? Is that actually what you're saying?
That completely baffles me.

What are the possible beneficial side-effect of helping organize my thoughts? Are you serious?

Yes I'm serious. But I'm pretty sure you mis-read that paragraph.
I assumed that the text was posting your reasons which would, as a side-effect, help organise your thoughts.
It appears that you are saying that you didn't post any reasons for your reads in #452 - the text is just organising your thoughts.

So. Could you explain

why

(rather than just summarising your thoughts about) Guardian does not justify being boosted? Is there something specific about Electra that made her more boostable than Guardian that you didn't see before writing #452?

I never said it was - I'm pointing out how little he was attacking.

As I have stated multiple times, each case is different - you can't lump "scumtells" together.

Indeed. Yet, you did very little attacking of Incog, preferring instead to let sl do all the running.
To say that not doing any attacking is scummy - but that the instance where you personally didn't do any attacking (preferring instead to

avoid confrontation

by commentating of sl's attacks) isn't scummy - doesn't ring true.

~~~

Another thing I'm curious about is a few times now, you've mentioned that you feel like springlullaby's anger seemed feigned since you think she's been taking on a different persona when compared to her real life personality. Do you know springlullaby from outside of mafiascum or something? What have you been trying to get at there?

Missed this bit first time round.
No, I don't know springlullaby in real life, and I have never played a mafia game with her.
The aggressive tone in her posts towards you seemed like someone having to consciously think about how to post aggressively, unlike someone like, say, SensFan who is aggresive in a 'natural' way, if that makes sense.

That's either because:
she isn't really aggressive in real life, but chose to play online mafia in an aggressive way; or
she was playing aggressively as part of a scum-strategy; or
<some other thing I haven't thought of>

(basically, the fake-aggression is either due to playstyle or alignment)

Now, the scum-strategy idea suddenly makes a lot of sense when you factor in how Guardian picked up almost exactly where sl left off. Which, in turn, gave you an avenue to attack Guardian back.
Lots of heat produced, very little progress made either way.

[sthar8]

Rereading eldarad. The sudden push on him seems odd to me, because I was reading him as protown less than four pages ago, but the number of accusers would warrant a closer look even if I thought that all the points against him were garbage (which I don't).

Also looking at Jahudo.

Assuming no major upsets, I'd be comfortable voting for Huntress, iLord, and Mana_Ku. Note that mana hasn't done anything particularly scummy, but her lack of real contribution even when she's not lurking terribly means that her lynch is not a bad one, even if it is a little sub-par.

Huntress continues to look like a fine catch of fresh scum. She may not be leeching or following the crowd like crazy was, but her entrance named nearly half the town as possible suspects, which is suspicious for the reasons that Incog has already enumerated in guardian's case. Furthermore, the only specifics we have from her are a case against electra, a claimed info role,

after she was boosted

. Now, I'm not going to say we should treat electra as confirmed town (my straw men wouldn't be that obvious ) but this seems suspiciously like scum trying to eliminate a dangerous role without using up their NK. Given the information in-thread, I can't think of any situation short of mod-confirming electra as scum (Patrick, not elmo) that could possibly make electra the best lynch today, before we've gained any info from her claim or fake-claim. Assuming the absolute best about huntress, this is still a waste of her time, and the town's, especially so close to deadline.

[Incognito]

I do agree with the last paragraph brought forward by sthar8 - it does seem rather pointless for someone to focus so much attention on a person like Electra who was, at the time, almost assuredly going to be boosted and now

has

been boosted. I'd also like to note that Guardian was guilty of a similar offense; upon replacing in, he immediately began discrediting Electra's claim and attacking her for certain points and has only backed off of her recently now that she has actually attained boost status. Why Guardian hasn't been dog-piled yet is beyond me.

Now, the scum-strategy idea suddenly makes a lot of sense when you factor in how Guardian picked up almost exactly where sl left off. Which, in turn, gave you an avenue to attack Guardian back.
Lots of heat produced, very little progress made either way.

Perhaps Guardian picked up where SL left off to make it

seem

like two supposedly like-minded "pro-town" people came to similar conclusions about a person's alignment to therefore try and add weight to an unsubstantial case? I'm just appalled that you and a few others have continuously voiced some concern about springlullaby/Guardian throughout this game but to this point, I'm the only person who's actually voted for the dude. He's picked up a few FoS's and slaps of the wrist but nothing concrete like my vote and now I'm suddenly to blame for this too. Does this not say anything to anyone?

I wouldn't mind a Jahudo lynch. I don't see the case against eldarad. I'm eager for a wrap-up from Huntress and am wondering what the hell happened to Mana_Ku.

[Guardian]

I still fundamentally disagree that finding many people suspicious is suspicious, and do not find it at all plausible to take that as a point against Huntress.

I'd also like to say that my "offense" is fundamentally dissimilar to Huntress's in that I

never

said that Electra was suspicious, and only have repeated that I do not think she was an excellent boost candidate and should not be considered to be surely town.

What makes you say Electra was "assuredly going to be boosted"? People can't change their minds?

Maybe I haven't been "dog-piled," as you put it, because I haven't been scummy, Incog. Why comment on other people for a few posts then return back to me?

---

sth, what do you think about your being boosted so much, and people's timing and reasons for boosting you?

what makes you think mana_ku is intentionally lurking rather than being inactive?

Even though I didn't find her suspicious, I think that suspicion of Electra is a healthy thing and am not sure why that is a point against Huntress. Sharing opinions about the alignments of other players is never a waste of time, even if it is sure that they are not going to be lynched

today

.

[Patrick]

Heads up. Elmo may have computer issues that will keep him away for a while (see his sig). In the meantime, I'm going to be looking for a replacement for Mana_Ku.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

I could say the same for Incognito. One of SL’s points against Incog in post 222 was that he asked for people’s reason for voting Skillit without Incog giving a stance himself. I did not think this was a scum tell at the time, post 224, but I agreed that Incog was not taking a stance.

Incognito not giving his view was one of the points that I agreed with.

Good job trying to pull a "but he did it too!"

iLord, how many times have I clearly avoided giving an opinion to a major discussion point versus how many times has someone like Incog avoided giving one? How do you know that the tell means someone is waiting for other people to respond first and not just trying to make up their own mind or using the words of others to help shape their mind?

Continuing the "but he did it too!"

And not even a valid one - you are responding to issues. You're responses just are carefully devoid of specific opinion.

When you do attempt to fabricate an opinion, it's quickly proven to be invalid.

What do you mean? Incognito was active.

Yes, he was. So what about SL's points made you be able to get a better read of Incognito?

I thought he was slightly scummy in a later post but I also didn’t think there were obvious tells from anyone so this is a weak opinion. One thing I didn’t like was Crazy saying he wasn’t interested in the game when pointing to his inactivity. It could’ve been an excuse to lurk longer but I couldn’t think of anything to ask him about it.

This is backing up my above point - too often your opinion is, what I believe to be, purposely ambigious or "soft."

Outlining points of suspicion makes it apparent what he thinks is a tell and by stating that he thinks there is a tell, those people can have a legitimate case against them. Without the outline, I don’t think he can make a legitimate case.

He can still be serious without a legitimate case.

Do you think RR is focusing extensively on one person?

You missed this question.

eldarad's attack on iLord is definitely crap logic, but that alone isn't indicative of much, town is perfectly capable of bad logic as well. Guardian has a point about his early attack on Skillit being not-that-convincing, but so are more or less all early game attacks. I skimmed his other posts and am having trouble making up my mind on him one way or the other, my earlier town lean doesn't stand but he doesn't seem very scummy either. I don't think he should be the lynch today.

Purposeful crap logic generally is indicative of scum. I've stated why I believe his logic to be purposeful.

I'm not twisting your words. If your order is not precise, but only the category is meaningful, then switching votes or boosts between people in the same category is pointless.

If you are saying that, actually, it is only the middle bit that is vague, and the town and scum categories are ranked in order then it makes sense to change boosts between them. That wasn't my understanding of your list.
Especially since your lists have different numbers of people labelled as town and scum. That initially suggested that you DID have a ranking throughout (ie, there would be a 5th most townie person who has been classified as 'neutral'), until you said otherwise.

Why would the only the catagory be meaningful? You mean that I magically found people in only three degrees of scumminess? You know this is crap logic.

That was your understanding of your list - I have a relative ranking - the closer you get to the middle, the closer they are - just like anyone else. I'm your sure that you could list who you think is the most town, and who you think is the most scum, but it would be dificult for you to state who you think is the most neutral.

It makes no sense whatsoever to assume otherwise, and stop pretending that you did.

If they aren't there to explain your reasoning for the town/neutral/scum, what ARE they there for?
Your answer - in #515 - is "to organise your thoughts" so actually, those paragraphs next to the colourful words are NOT justifying that person's inclusion in your list? Is that actually what you're saying?
That completely baffles me.

I'm explained this multiple times already - if you read my blocks, they have stuff like what's in a post, and whether or not I found them scummy. No where did I explain why, and I said as much - I told you guys to ask me so I could elaborate on why on points that you are interested in. I even repeated this to Incognito, and then to your "contrived" post. Yet you still ignore this - saying that I said nothing about why Incognito was scummy in my summary post! This is so obviously just scrambling for more points.

Yes I'm serious. But I'm pretty sure you mis-read that paragraph.
I assumed that the text was posting your reasons which would, as a side-effect, help organise your thoughts.
It appears that you are saying that you didn't post any reasons for your reads in #452 - the text is just organising your thoughts.

So. Could you explain why (rather than just summarising your thoughts about) Guardian does not justify being boosted? Is there something specific about Electra that made her more boostable than Guardian that you didn't see before writing #452?

Yes, the test is just organizing my thoughts. The benefits are so I can figure out who I think is scum and who I think is town.

I've been supporting an Electra boost since before my Guardian boost. The only reason I didn't boost Electra, which you would know if you bothered to read the post where I boosted Guardian, was because I didn't want to put her at a position where she might be accidentally boosted.

Indeed. Yet, you did very little attacking of Incog, preferring instead to let sl do all the running.
To say that not doing any attacking is scummy - but that the instance where you personally didn't do any attacking (preferring instead to avoid confrontation by commentating of sl's attacks) isn't scummy - doesn't ring true.

Did I avoid confronatation with Incognito at all? I've already how explained how my case would just be redundant - you're not even making sure that your points are valid!

Your entire "case" is so, to use your/Incognito's word, "contrived" it's ridiculous.

Rereading eldarad. The sudden push on him seems odd to me, because I was reading him as protown less than four pages ago, but the number of accusers would warrant a closer look even if I thought that all the points against him were garbage (which I don't).

Just look at his past few posts - you can't miss the crap logic.

I don't see the case against eldarad.

Have you read his last few posts?

-------------------------------------------------------------

[sthar8]

it does seem rather pointless for someone to focus so much attention on a person like Electra who was, at the time, almost assuredly going to be boosted

Not "was going to be boosted." When Huntress presented her case, electra had

already been boost-hammered

. This is a [i[huge[/i] difference. Where guardian was arguing against electra's boost (which may be intensely protown), huntress is either attempting to engineer electra's lynch today or preemptively discredit her information tomorrow.

what do you think about your being boosted so much, and people's timing and reasons for boosting you?

I'm at B-1, right?

Well, I'm glad we're getting the boost out of the way, and I'm glad that I'm playing well enough to be trusted with a boost. I think that everyone is feeling the imminence of deadline, and I think that I might be seen as the "safe" boost, as far as expressing opinions go, and a good compromise for those who are more worried about reaching consensus. I'm not sure that I'm the most advantageous boost today, for various reasons that I don't want made public. My preferred boost is still TDC, but I'm not going to complain too much if it's me.

what makes you think mana_ku is intentionally lurking rather than being inactive?

The fact that her game posts have been devoid of meaningful content. Even if she is only inactive, I'm not sure I care too much. I'd rather rid the town of a noncontributing player than support a lynch I find to be questionable, especially on Day 1. Of course, if the mod is going to replace her, there is no longer a reason to lynch her, as we should let her replacement get up to speed.

I think that suspicion of Electra is a healthy thing and am not sure why that is a point against Huntress. Sharing opinions about the alignments of other players is never a waste of time, even if it is sure that they are not going to be lynched today.

Under normal circumstances, I'd agree wholeheartedly about being transparent with one's opinions (at least about scum). However, some opinions are of greater value than others, and Huntress has been giving us the information that is

least

valuable to the town. While the rest of us are scrambling to find an acceptable lynch before deadline, Huntress is busily making vague noises, announcing that she is contributing, and only giving us specific opinions on the

one

person whose lynch is

guaranteed

bad play for the town. Earlier in the day, discussion for the sake of discussion, even aimed at the goals of another day, is fine. But once the deadline is

already in place

real townies realize that we need to buckle down and pick someone to kill. Anything else is actively anti-town, and the only players with incentive to act against the town are scum.

I'd like to reiterate again that your actions, while similar, are fundamentally and significantly different from Huntress's.

[iLord]

sthar8, you're opinion on Eldarad after looking at his past few posts?

[Incognito]

Yeah, I read his last few posts. The first portion of his Post 507 wasn't phrased very well, but I understood the gist of it. He's basically trying to say that your listing of people from towniest to scummiest looks contrived because you seem to conveniently shift people around in such a way as to have your top two towniest people as the people you just so happen to be boosting. I've mentioned my feelings about your list also in the past about how I felt it looked contrived and yeah, this was one of the major issues I had with your list too. When I called you out about this weeks and weeks ago, you mentioned something about me mistaking the rigidity of your list, and you're doing the same thing here with eldarad. The fact that eldarad and I seemed to reach this conclusion about your lists independently of one another makes me think he's still likely to be town and thus, I don't see the case against him.

There's a difference between the way

you

organize people in your lists and the way I or anyone else does. While I say something like "I'd be okay with boosting any one of the following people", you seem to have some kind of a definitive order that seems definitive because of your color-coding and seeming rigidity with your "Town" label on the top and "Scum" label on the bottom. I have yet to determine if this is just a difference in playstyle or if this is in fact scummy since I haven't been able to look at those past games you linked to from that other site. But the way it's presented does look scummy to me also, and I don't see the so-called crap logic that you're calling eldarad out about.

The next portion of his 507 covers your Jahudo read. Again, this is something I've mentioned having a problem with also when I said your reads look contrived. You seem to summarize people's posts one by one by one in these towniest to scummiest list posts, but you don't really seem to indicate why, in your own words, it is you find this person scummier than that person and that person scummier than this person. You usually mention at the bottom of your posts that "if anyone wants clarification, please ask" but if you're town, shouldn't it be your job to try and push the case and try to demonstrate to everyone else why it is you feel this way about said "scummy person"? You did eventually do just that with your case against Jahudo in your 501 but again you don't really go into depth about why it is you feel this way about each post you've dissected. You comment on each post and say stuff like "didn't disclose his opinion" or "doesn't disclose his opinion, which is scummy" but you don't really explain why it's scummy in this case. It just looks to me more like you don't actually believe in what it is you're typing.

Following 507, you both go back and forth a bit reiterating the same points. Blah blah blah. This is probably my cue to say "OMG ELDARAD, GUARDIAN, AND ILORD SCUM TEAM LOL!!11".

[Incognito]

That post was in response to iLord.

[Huntress]

I'm defining vanilla as not having a role. Boosts are specific to this game, and anyone can be boosted, so if I don't get anything unless I'm boosted, I'm vanilla to me.

I wouldn't have described an information role, however limited, as vanilla; but I guess we can agree to differ on that one.

Why would the Mafia assume that town had these roles even if they had similar roles? It's just too much of a leap. People just aren't that smart/bold. :p The fact that I did this quickly means that it was an easy thought process because I was telling the truth. If I was lying, then I'd have to think through much more to make sure I didn't say anything that would screw me up.

I would never take it for granted that someone couldn't be smart enough to think that quickly.

In addition, mafia would not know that there would even be roles where it's stated what type of general thing a boost might do for you.

How do you know that the mafia would not know there could be such roles? They might have similar roles themselves.

I think you missed this bit. You made a statement that the mafia "would not know" something. How do you know that? It could be infered from what you say that you know what roles the mafia

do

have.

Second, in terms of suspicious responses – Crazy’s “I’d like to just play normally and ignore all this boosting stuff” seems weird to me, it’s a bit passive, and sort of seems like scum trying to have a “safe” opinion. I find eldarad’s post to be unscummy, as I think that there’s no reason for scum to be the first to “react” to such a unique post. :p I also find iLord’s post to be unscummy for a similar reason.

You are misrepresenting Crazy here. He did not not say "ignore all this boosting stuff”. What he actually said was "I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least something from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point." Why is it 'passive' and 'like scum' not to give his boost to the first person to ask for it? Later on, in post 286, you write, "I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum." So why did you think Crazy was scummy for showing the same caution? And why is it unscummy for eldarad and iLord to be quick to react?

He said play normally and then find someone to boost later. I take this to mean, ignore boosts, don't talk about them, and then pick the least scummy. I'm mainly advocating talking about the strategy behind boosting. Mafia would obviously not want to delve too deeply into a strategy because it would hurt them.

So you called Crazy suspicious based on what

you

decided he meant, not on what he actually said.

---------------------

Huntress continues to look like a fine catch of fresh scum. She may not be leeching or following the crowd like crazy was, but her entrance named nearly half the town as possible suspects, which is suspicious for the reasons that Incog has already enumerated in guardian's case.

So it's scummy to mention that as many as five players had given me reason to look closer at them from a quick initial read? Considering there are likely to be around threeish scum I don't think five is excessive. Neither do I think that Incog's comments re: Guardian apply here.

Furthermore, the only specifics we have from her are a case against electra, a claimed info role, after she was boosted. Now, I'm not going to say we should treat electra as confirmed town (my straw men wouldn't be that obvious Wink ) but this seems suspiciously like scum trying to eliminate a dangerous role without using up their NK. Given the information in-thread, I can't think of any situation short of mod-confirming electra as scum (Patrick, not elmo) that could possibly make electra the best lynch today, before we've gained any info from her claim or fake-claim. Assuming the absolute best about huntress, this is still a waste of her time, and the town's, especially so close to deadline.

I started with Electra because she was the first to catch my attention. I was doing my read on her and getting my thoughts together before she was boosted. What would have been the point of not posting it? I still had questions I wanted answered. Please don't forget that I'm still catching up and didn't have the opportunity to raise these points at the time they originally came up. Remember, there's also the possibility I might not be alive tomorrow. Would you rather my thoughts on her remained hidden?

Boost: TDC

- I'm sticking with my earlier decision on this one.

I'm not giving my boost to sthar because although I didn't find him scummy when reading his posts in isolation I still have a lingering doubt from the impression I had of him when I did my initial read of the whole thread. And his current scramble to divert attention from Elderad back to me combined with his desire to supress discussion of my other top suspect obviously doesn't help.

@ Sthar: The reason I haven't been saying much about others is that almost all of it has already been said, at length, earlier in the thread, and I see no need to repeat it unless and until I am making a case against someone, as I will be doing on Elderad. That's why I've just been saying whereabouts on my list they are as I finish my individual reads. Contrary to what you are saying, I haven't been spending my time on Electra; I've barely looked at her since writing post 458.

[Incognito]

Not "was going to be boosted." When Huntress presented her case, electra had

already been boost-hammered

. This is a [i[huge[/i] difference. Where guardian was arguing against electra's boost (which may be intensely protown), huntress is either attempting to engineer electra's lynch today or preemptively discredit her information tomorrow.

Guardian's arguing against Electra's boost can also be seen as intensely scummy if Electra is actually who she says she is. I could certainly see a pro-scum player fighting tooth and nail trying to discredit someone like a pro-town Electra from getting boosted; Electra's claimed power could be extremely helpful down the road for town and could be extremely hurtful for scum. She's claimed to provide exactly the kind of information about the entire town that would make scum shudder.

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #17 - Lynching

Huntress (3) <- Mana_Ku, sthar8, Electra
Incognito (2) <- Jahudo, Raging Rabbit
eldarad (2) <- Guardian, iLord
iLord <- eldarad
Mana_Ku <- TDC
Guardian <- Incognito

Not voting: RandomGem, Huntress.

Boost Count

sthar8 (6) <- Guardian, iLord, eldarad, Electra, Incognito, Raging Rabbit
Raging Rabbit (2) <- Jahudo, Mana_Ku
TDC (2) <- sthar8, Huntress
eldarad <- TDC

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch/boost. For the record, Mana_ku's prod has still not been picked up; I endorse the replacement. Fun fact, I am writing this post off a four year old bootable Linux CD I had lying around - I love you all that much!

[Patrick]

Because Elmo is back, I'll be leaving him with the excitement of finding the replacement <3

[Electra]

@ Huntress - I just think that people are not very likely to do such gambits, and if they do, I don't think they can do them well. For example, something that's a "good" scum gambit is to claim miller on day 1, but this can be ruined by being unable to provide proper flavor related to the game, being role-name counterclaimed, etc, etc.

Mafia would not know town roles, even if they had similar roles. In the same way, even though my role is structured this way, I have no idea if Mafia would be told the same types of things.

That's what I took it to mean because that's what it looks like he said. I don't really see why I shouldn't look at people's posts the way I look at them. : p

Okay, anyway.

I tried to form some opinions on people who I haven't really commented on before.

eldarad - his first posts read pro-town to me, but his three-scum theory seems way too far-fetched. I don't think SL faked her anger to distance herself from scumbuddy Incognito. Even if scum had planned this beforehand, SL came into the game late, and so I don't think she would have really been a part of this discussion. Furthermore, Guardian would definitely have not been part of this discussion, and so I don't really see how this could be.

TDC- his posts seem very protown to me, now that I read through them again. I'd probably support his boost second to sthar.

Jahudo- I agree with iLord's case on him. He has definitely been playing very cautiously, there are several lines of him that sound like scum trying to sound like a good townie.

ManaKu - her first post is OK, but her lack of posts is not. In general, I feel like scum would have problems in a game with such large amounts of posting like this and would avoid talking. If she had real opinions, she would have continued to elaborate on them, not disappear.

Note: I've noticed that replacements tend to find me more suspicious than people who were in the game when I made my posts, so I assume it just reads as more suspicious than it was when I did it. So I feel like people attacking me (who are replacements) is pretty much a null tell, maybe slightly protown, since if scum, they would have to deliberately go against the general consensus.

[Guardian]

sth, to put it bluntly, how many of the people who consensus-boosted you in the past few pages do you think are likely to be scum?

When a vote-wagon builds that quickly, usually there are scum on it. Should we assume that that does not apply to a boost wagon?

[iLord]

asdfasdf

Yeah, I read his last few posts. The first portion of his Post 507 wasn't phrased very well, but I understood the gist of it. He's basically trying to say that your listing of people from towniest to scummiest looks contrived because you seem to conveniently shift people around in such a way as to have your top two towniest people as the people you just so happen to be boosting. I've mentioned my feelings about your list also in the past about how I felt it looked contrived and yeah, this was one of the major issues I had with your list too. When I called you out about this weeks and weeks ago, you mentioned something about me mistaking the rigidity of your list, and you're doing the same thing here with eldarad. The fact that eldarad and I seemed to reach this conclusion about your lists independently of one another makes me think he's still likely to be town and thus, I don't see the case against him.

Your claim that I shift my list to match my boosts is not only incorrect, but also not indicative of scum. I shifted my boosts to match my scumlist.

There's a difference between the way you organize people in your lists and the way I or anyone else does. While I say something like "I'd be okay with boosting any one of the following people", you seem to have some kind of a definitive order that seems definitive because of your color-coding and seeming rigidity with your "Town" label on the top and "Scum" label on the bottom. I have yet to determine if this is just a difference in playstyle or if this is in fact scummy since I haven't been able to look at those past games you linked to from that other site. But the way it's presented does look scummy to me also, and I don't see the so-called crap logic that you're calling eldarad out about.

I have said that I would be okay with any of the people I think is town. Is that now what you do? You keep on calling me out of the rigidity of my scumlist when it is no less rigid than your own! Do you not have a top 3 town in your mind, or a top 3 scum? And I've already stated that the neutral section is loose - even though I have more evidence to work with, a lot of the players in the middle aren't reading town or scum for me.

The next portion of his 507 covers your Jahudo read. Again, this is something I've mentioned having a problem with also when I said your reads look contrived.

You seem to summarize people's posts one by one by one in these towniest to scummiest list posts, but you don't really seem to indicate why, in your own words, it is you find this person scummier than that person and that person scummier than this person. You usually mention at the bottom of your posts that "if anyone wants clarification, please ask" but if you're town, shouldn't it be your job to try and push the case and try to demonstrate to everyone else why it is you feel this way about said "scummy person"?

You did eventually do just that with your case against Jahudo in your 501 but again you don't really go into depth about why it is you feel this way about each post you've dissected. You comment on each post and say stuff like "didn't disclose his opinion" or "doesn't disclose his opinion, which is scummy" but you don't really explain why it's scummy in this case. It just looks to me more like you don't actually believe in what it is you're typing.

You answered the bolded part yourself with the stuff about Jahudo. Could you explain what you mean there?

I did explain why not disclosing your opinion is scummy - it's because its decreases chance of confrontation. I've mentioned that I have found his nonconfrontational style posts scummy.

--------------------------------------------------

Electra’s recent arguments are really pushing my newb read – that is not an argument she should be arguing – how unlikely it is that what she’s doing is a gambit because “people aren’t that smart or bold.”

eldarad - his first posts read pro-town to me, but his three-scum theory seems way too far-fetched. I don't think SL faked her anger to distance herself from scumbuddy Incognito. Even if scum had planned this beforehand, SL came into the game late, and so I don't think she would have really been a part of this discussion. Furthermore, Guardian would definitely have not been part of this discussion, and so I don't really see how this could be.

What about his recent attack on me?

[Huntress]

eldarad - his first posts read pro-town to me, but his three-scum theory seems way too far-fetched. I don't think SL faked her anger to distance herself from scumbuddy Incognito. Even if scum had planned this beforehand, SL came into the game late, and so I don't think she would have really been a part of this discussion. Furthermore, Guardian would definitely have not been part of this discussion, and so I don't really see how this could be.

Quote credit fixed.


A brief summary of my reasons for voting Elderad:

1) His too-quick boost of Electra.

2) His pushing of the Skillet wagon, which already had two random votes on it before he added his, for reasons which look like making a mountain out of a molehill, the molehill being Skillet's joke and theory discussion.

3)

Crazy

- as much as I like people agreeing with me, I am surprised that springlullaby pulled Incog up for referring to my opinion, but completely ignored Crazy doing the same in a much more blatant way.
I also don't like the continued assumption that Electra's "information" will be a cop investigation.
vote Crazy

What "continued assumption"? The

only

thing Crazy ever said about this was "The problem is... the information Electra gives us is not testable. What if she claims an innocent on Player X? How would you test that?" (post 151). Electra had said earlier "I don’t know what kind of information I get, but I do hope it’s something cop-ish, and it certainly would be nice if I got scum out of it.", so this wasn't an assumption by Crazy but a point about a possible scenario.

So his only reasons for voting Crazy were that Springlullaby ignored him and Crazy's "assumption" about Electra's possible information. Definately very flimsy reasons for a vote.

4) The fuss he made about iLord switching his boost to Electra.

Vote: Elderad

In other news Incognito has overtaken Springlullaby/Guardian on my scum-o-meter but I haven't finished my read on them yet so this may change.

[Guardian]

In other news Incognito has overtaken Springlullaby/Guardian on my scum-o-meter but I haven't finished my read on them yet so this may change.

Why?

[Incognito]

^^^ What he said.

---

You answered the bolded part yourself with the stuff about Jahudo. Could you explain what you mean there?

Ah nevermind. I could have sworn that somewhere in your posts following your 452, you had mentioned that you might not have the chance to get into your Jahudo case before deadline. I just saw it as a division of time and labor thing; instead of producing this huge post 452 that eventually results in some kind of listing that you've claimed doesn't even mean much especially in the middle, it would make more sense for you if you're town to just produce a case to try and get your top scummiest person lynched. But yeah, you said something else about your computer not working well and not that you'd never get a chance to go into your case so nevermind.

[Patrick]

Green Crayons replaces Mana_Ku. Welcome!

[Green Crayons]

I'm taking the weekend to read through the thread. Anyone have any specific questions they would like me to answer to any specific situations they would like me to comment upon?